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post #81 of 128
up is down, right trump
post #82 of 128
Quote:
The problem with his logic is that there is not a person on this board who uses exclusively renewable energy sources.

When did anything he say hinge on people exclusively using energy resources?

He said, and I'll quote him again:
People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

He is right. You can't argue with his logic, that's why you have to go for personal swipes and mock outrage, pretending he was attacking you when you weren't even mentioned in any way.

The more people use non-renewable resources the more important it is to acquire them. That's a fact.
The more scarce they become the more competition for them increases. That's a fact.

Re-read this thread from fellowship's post on. There's someone overreacting and making this a very contentious and venom-filled thread, and he posts under the handle "trumptman".
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #83 of 128
Quote:

Nice house! But Trumpetman, 2600 sq feet is about average, at least in NC - I don't think that it is excessive. That is about the minimum size house for comfort with a family of 5.
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post #84 of 128
Quote:
[He said, and I'll quote him again:
People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

Nope, they lower the price of gas, so that the rest of us can guzzle at will.
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post #85 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Naples:

So basically what you want is for people who say things you don't like to simultaneously "shut up" at the same time they are "doing something about it"?

You ask for an answer, I give one, and now you're whining that I gave one.

I vote. I voice my opinion in many arenas. I occassionally write letters to my congressmen and senators. Give me a serious suggestion on how I might "do something real". I'm a voter, one person. I don't need to prove anything to you to voice my opinion on what I think those in power should do. If you don't want to read it, stop going to websites where people say things you don't like.

How many threads here have been used to criticize, bash, or otherwise push some anti-bush agenda?

If you go back, you will have a hard time finding ones that don't end up becoming just that.

I understand that just because he is president right now, there will be dimwits that blame him for every wrong and those that will attribute any good to him. I also realize that discussion is a good thing - a little back and forth, some spirited debate, if you will.

What I don't understand is a group of smart people, capable of some pretty cogent thought (as attested to by the recent "Athiest theology insider" thread, I think it was), have resigned themselves to simply hang everything on GWB as if everything that has happened in the last 4 years has no previous causation or influence. We just need to get rig of The Shrub and life will be grand. Ahhhhh bliss.....

I do however get the political convenience of it though, so that really could be motivating factor here. Truth and fairness be damned.

Do you see my point? Perhaps not...
post #86 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
up is down, right trump

It is always interesting how you stop quoting when you want to distort and pick a fight. Please quote me if you want discuss something I have said.


Quote:
People who look for and use renewable energy do not (as much) create this demand for wars to solve energy supply concerns.

He is right. You can't argue with his logic, that's why you have to go for personal swipes and mock outrage, pretending he was attacking you when you weren't even mentioned in any way.

I can and did argue with his logic or lack there of. I mentioned the numerous problems with the statement. Here lets start with one just so we won't overwhelm you.

Would you care to explain how you can demand war, but not as much as others? Answer this please.

You can wave your hands in the air and be upset that he also followed up bad reasoning with personal examples in an attempt to support said bad reasoning, but that is really beside the point. You don't feed someone reasoning and then support it with "but it's right because I've decided I make better decisions than you."


Quote:
The more people use non-renewable resources the more important it is to acquire them. That's a fact.
The more scarce they become the more competition for them increases. That's a fact.

So you believe competition for resources to grow food are not subject to competition nor are they scarce nor does the growing of food harm the planet when people convert rainforests to farm land?

Are those facts as well?

Quote:
Re-read this thread from fellowship's post on. There's someone overreacting and making this a very contentious and venom-filled thread, and he posts under the handle "trumptman".

The reality is that farming for biodiesel requires resources, especially land and water. Last I checked those weren't unlimited. Declaring my solution or myself to be better simply because it raises a different set of questions to answer isn't a real solution.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #87 of 128
Quote:
What I don't understand is a group of smart people, capable of some pretty cogent thought (as attested to by the recent "Athiest theology insider" thread, I think it was), have resigned themselves to simply hang everything on GWB as if everything that has happened in the last 4 years has no previous causation or influence. We just need to get rig of The Shrub and life will be grand. Ahhhhh bliss.....

Of the things I listed we need apologize for, how many of them happened during the administration of George Walker Bush?

Please answer my question.

The sticking point here is not my obsession with Bush, it is your inability to formulate an argument to contend with what I have to say so you resort to childish trolling.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #88 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Nice house! But Trumpetman, 2600 sq feet is about average, at least in NC - I don't think that it is excessive. That is about the minimum size house for comfort with a family of 5.

Excessive is of course a comparitive trait. The reasoning put forth was that energy demand = demand for war. If you demand more energy then you want war more.

I didn't claim the reasoning was good. I was simply applying it in a different area. If by Fellowship's reasoning, the fact that he drives a biodiesel car means he wants war less and thus people who drive SUV's and large pick-ups want it more.

By the same reasoning, people who own smaller homes that use less energy want war less and people who own large homes that use more energy want war more.

Fellowship tried to rationalize the house by pointing out that it is very energy efficient. The reality though is that a condo or house of say 800 sq. ft. with the same efficiency would use much less energy and it is impossible to get around that fact. In the area of housing we are all pretty much in the area of want, and not of need. As I said earlier if energy use is a sign of blood on our hands then arguing who has less blood on their pinky is sort of pointless. Someone is still dead.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #89 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Of the things I listed we need apologize for, how many of them happened during the administration of George Walker Bush?

Please answer my question.

The sticking point here is not my obsession with Bush, it is your inability to formulate an argument to contend with what I have to say so you resort to childish trolling.

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT THE WHOLE "NEO-CON" FOREIGN POLICY THINGY!!!!

Funny how you go right along with the "Bush and the Neo-Cons are evil" premise until it suits you...

To answer your question, none that I can recall. However, you seem to be demanding it from this POTUS.

Why not have Carter, Bush 1, or maybe even Clinton do the honors. Did you even demand that Clinton apologize for all of the worlds woes, in the same manner you do now?

Probably not and I'll tell you why - politics. Clinton is a hero and Bush is a zero IYO, or so it would seem.
post #90 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Excessive is of course a comparitive trait. The reasoning put forth was that energy demand = demand for war. If you demand more energy then you want war more.

I didn't claim the reasoning was good. I was simply applying it in a different area. If by Fellowship's reasoning, the fact that he drives a biodiesel car means he wants war less and thus people who drive SUV's and large pick-ups want it more.

By the same reasoning, people who own smaller homes that use less energy want war less and people who own large homes that use more energy want war more.

Fellowship tried to rationalize the house by pointing out that it is very energy efficient. The reality though is that a condo or house of say 800 sq. ft. with the same efficiency would use much less energy and it is impossible to get around that fact. In the area of housing we are all pretty much in the area of want, and not of need. As I said earlier if energy use is a sign of blood on our hands then arguing who has less blood on their pinky is sort of pointless. Someone is still dead.

Nick

I agree Nick. We all "should" do something re: house and car and the rest.

Do we not agree?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #91 of 128
Naples, please post like an adult.
post #92 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT THE WHOLE "NEO-CON" FOREIGN POLICY THINGY!!!!

Funny how you go right along with the "Bush and the Neo-Cons are evil" premise until it suits you...

To answer your question, none that I can recall. However, you seem to be demanding it from this POTUS.

Why not have Carter, Bush 1, or maybe even Clinton do the honors. Did you even demand that Clinton apologize for all of the worlds woes, in the same manner you do now?

Probably not and I'll tell you why - politics. Clinton is a hero and Bush is a zero IYO, or so it would seem.

Actually I see it outside of politics to be quite honest. In another thread This Site is linked to. You will have to determine for youself just how much stock you put into what that site submits. If some of what that site says is the case we are in some degree of trouble.

Democrat or Republican
Left or Right
Christian or Devil worshiper.... Hey that is just a playful joke
Black White Yellow or Brown

We are in a fix.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #93 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I agree Nick. We all "should" do something re: house and car and the rest.

Do we not agree?

Fellows

Why stop there? Obviously they only reflect work, education and personal wealth.

When we see the planet as limited, anyone who has a disproportionate amount of resources, no how they are measured, be it energy, money, food is basically a criminal and a thief and gets what they deserve right?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #94 of 128
Quote:

BTW - that site says that conservation makes the problem worse.

I would take that site with a few grains of salt. Whenever I check up on things, reality does not match what is presented on the site (for example, the tar sands in Canada are producing far more oil than they suggest).
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post #95 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Why stop there? Obviously they only reflect work, education and personal wealth.

When we see the planet as limited, anyone who has a disproportionate amount of resources, no how they are measured, be it energy, money, food is basically a criminal and a thief and gets what they deserve right?

Nick

My house uses 125 amp-hours a day, and I use 25 gallons of premium fuel a week to transport myself with no passengers in my 17mpg 300hp car. Does that make me a level 10 evil-doer?

People with long commutes = +2 evil
People with Hummers = +3 evil
Saudi Arabians who run air conditioning in outdoor markets = +50 evil
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post #96 of 128
trumpt:

Quote:
Would you care to explain how you can demand war, but not as much as others? Answer this please.

It's pretty clear that "demand for war" in this instance is not in the form of letters to Bush saying, "WAR PLZ" it is along the same lines as "voting with your wallet". Meaningless individually or in small groups, the rule in the tens of millions.

If you make the decision to buy something that consumes more fuel than another thing you are doing so expecting to be able to get the fuel required to run the machine.

By buying into the system and supporting it we supports it's logical side-effects, military protection of economic interests, because that's the way it has been done and there has been no reason to expect otherwise.

I think you assign far more moralizing to fellowship's initial statement than is warranted.

Quote:
So you believe competition for resources to grow food are not subject to competition nor are they scarce nor does the growing of food harm the planet when people convert rainforests to farm land?

That is an entirely separate issue. It's a straw man.

Quote:
When we see the planet as limited, anyone who has a disproportionate amount of resources, no how they are measured, be it energy, money, food is basically a criminal and a thief and gets what they deserve right?

You can't kill someone's argument by dragging it into a logical absurdity.

If you like beef why don't you just EAT BABIES!?!?!?


Naples:

Quote:
To answer your question, none that I can recall. However, you seem to be demanding it from this POTUS.

Because he's the current president. Don't blame me for that, I didn't even vote for him.

Who should I demand it from if not the leader of the nation?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #97 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
My house uses 125 amp-hours a day, and I use 25 gallons of premium fuel a week to transport myself with no passengers in my 17mpg 300hp car. Does that make me a level 10 evil-doer?

People with long commutes = +2 evil
People with Hummers = +3 evil
Saudi Arabians who run air conditioning in outdoor markets = +50 evil

Living in a free country we like to have the freedom to drive the tanks. I think it is obvious.

Having the discipline to keep fuel needs down as low as possible is what we should all work for.

Of course people like the freedom to do what they want who would not want that.

The question is how long can we live like that where we get to do what we want. Will there ever be hell to pay?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #98 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Living in a free country we like to have the freedom to drive the tanks. I think it is obvious.

Having the discipline to keep fuel needs down as low as possible is what we should all work for.

Of course people like the freedom to do what they want who would not want that.

The question is how long can we live like that where we get to do what we want. Will there ever be hell to pay?

Fellows

Saving fuel has absolutely no effect on the world - if you save fuel, it reduces the demand for fuel, which lowers the cost, which raises the demand (i.e. you lower the price so that China can use more).

Hell to pay - well yes, but only for the 3rd world. We will be able to pay more for Biofuel than they can pay for food, so their farmland will fill our gastanks. Also, global warming will raise the seas, and the 3rd world will be the hardest hit there.
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post #99 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
trumpt:



It's pretty clear that "demand for war" in this instance is not in the form of letters to Bush saying, "WAR PLZ" it is along the same lines as "voting with your wallet". Meaningless individually or in small groups, the rule in the tens of millions.

If you make the decision to buy something that consumes more fuel than another thing you are doing so expecting to be able to get the fuel required to run the machine.

By buying into the system and supporting it we supports it's logical side-effects, military protection of economic interests, because that's the way it has been done and there has been no reason to expect otherwise.

Correct and the point is that you either buy into the system or don't. There isn't a sort of buy in. As I said earlier, he (and you and I) are still American. We still consume electricity. It can go further. The food you buy at the air conditioned supermarket is still trucked in, etc.

The problem is you isolate it to gas in a car. That is naive. Loads of items consume and use oil in their production. Unless you've basically given up western living, then any blood you claim comes from oil use is on your hands as well.

Quote:
I think you assign far more moralizing to fellowship's initial statement than is warranted.

Thanks for sharing.

Quote:
That is an entirely separate issue. It's a straw man.

It is not a seperate issue. The contentions were pointed out by you and I addressed them. You said oil is non-renewable and as a result it is limited. This scarcity will create more competition for them. Every single one of these points is true for water and land as well. In fact one could claim that fighting a war over oil is a change from the historical nature of war which had previously always been about, you guessed it, land and water.

Quote:
You can't kill someone's argument by dragging it into a logical absurdity.

If you like beef why don't you just EAT BABIES!?!?!?

It isn't an absurdity. It is the consequence of the thinking. The reasoning was that competition over scarce resources was fierce enough to basically provoke unwarrented war. By this reasoning anyone who has an unequal share of these limited resources is part of the blame for the war. That is the exact same contention as made earlier. If you want more and consume more, then you want war more.

You seem to think certain choices scrub you clean or give you less blame. The reality is that if the government fights a war to keep oil cheap and then uses the economic proceeds from cheap oil to say, give you an education, tax you less, give medical care, pay for your retirement, etc. then it was bought with blood period. Claiming your hands are washed because you get X MPG in a car or some such nonsense is just refusing to see the big picture.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #100 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
My house uses 125 amp-hours a day, and I use 25 gallons of premium fuel a week to transport myself with no passengers in my 17mpg 300hp car. Does that make me a level 10 evil-doer?

People with long commutes = +2 evil
People with Hummers = +3 evil
Saudi Arabians who run air conditioning in outdoor markets = +50 evil

Dude, you seriously eat babies!

BTW someone should point out that California, where I live is 47th-49th in per capita energy use even though we are the land of freeways. We also do not have cheap energy with all this conservation, quite the opposite.

Also Sweden, Norway and Canada all use more energy per capita than the United States. We could mention those are all cold places, or we could just say they all are evil-doers that should go to hell where it is quite warm.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #101 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman


You seem to think certain choices scrub you clean or give you less blame. The reality is that if the government fights a war to keep oil cheap and then uses the economic proceeds from cheap oil to say, give you an education, tax you less, give medical care, pay for your retirement, etc. then it was bought with blood period. Claiming your hands are washed because you get X MPG in a car or some such nonsense is just refusing to see the big picture.

Nick

I don't deny the big picture. I just think we all fail at this and should start somewhere.

Do you think we should continue to live in 4,000 sq feet Mc.Mansions and drive H2's and Excursions, F350's and Hemi powered Dodge Trucks?

Or maybe tone it down a few notches as a whole and drive things that are smaller and live in smaller homes?

What is your view Nick?

Of course we all want and value our freedom to do as we wish... that is not the question the question I give to you is what do you think we should do?

Anything? if so what?

Nothing?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #102 of 128
trumpt:

Quote:
Correct and the point is that you either buy into the system or don't.

There are degrees into which you can buy into it, this is why he put "(as much)".

Quote:
The problem is you isolate it to gas in a car.

Who isolated it to gas in a car? No one. That's all fellowship explicitly stated, perhaps, but that in no way indicates that he doesn't think of it past that. You should have asked him before going off on a rant.

And past that, he has a picture of a Kerry/Edwards sign, which would ostensibly mean an overall more environment-friendly focus (the legitimacy of the argument is another question entirely) and not simply a focus on cars alone.

Quote:
You said oil is non-renewable and as a result it is limited. This scarcity will create more competition for them. Every single one of these points is true for water and land as well. In fact one could claim that fighting a war over oil is a change from the historical nature of war which had previously always been about, you guessed it, land and water.

Yes, we fight wars over land and water. And those are two things we can curtail the consumption/pollution of. We need a certain amount to survive as carbon-based lifeforms, so it's quite a bit different than oil.

Quote:
It is the consequence of the thinking.

No, it's not. It's something you said. You can't put words into someone else's mouth and say, "Well that's what you think!"
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #103 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I don't deny the big picture. I just think we all fail at this and should start somewhere.

This is a good perspective to keep and I agree with it. I just don't see how this meshes with someone wanting war more than someone else. One sounds like a nice inclusive platitude. The other sounds like a judgement and assignment of blame.

Quote:
Do you think we should continue to live in 4,000 sq feet Mc.Mansions and drive H2's and Excursions, F350's and Hemi powered Dodge Trucks?

Or maybe tone it down a few notches as a whole and drive things that are smaller and live in smaller homes?

Who draws that line though? See I could draw that line down pretty far. I camp quite a bit so I could probably be exceptionally happy in a one of these 400 sq ft RV's even with a family of four. I could let solar power meet most of my needs and use land power for satellite, computer laptop use, and so forth.

So now if I can get by in that and you need a 1200 sq ft house, do you desire war 300% more than me? How about if you live in a 2600 sq ft house. Then do you desire it 800% more than me?

Also when people buy those things I don't disagree with them owning them from some sort of ecological perspective. I disagree with them more because they often sacrifice their earnings in terms of credit agreements and their family as well to own "things."

I think we could do with a bit less, work a bit less and all have time to love each other and our families a bit more. I also know that since so many people measure their worth in dollars and especially income, this is almost impossible to put across to the general population and becomes even more so when said items are being used to compare and levy charges associated with fairness and equality. It is much easier to convince everyone they all ought to have equally more instead of all having equally less. People are running themselves ragged trying to prove they can all be equally rich and thus valued. It is nuts.

Quote:
Of course we all want and value our freedom to do as we wish... that is not the question the question I give to you is what do you think we should do?

Anything? if so what?

Nothing?

From what I am aware, in California they deal with it mostly on the construction side here. So appliances and new homes must be constructed in a very energy efficient manner. Our own city just passed a light pollution measure requiring businesses to dim their lights after 10 pm that I, even as a rock-ribbed Republican could easily support. We have a pretty high gas tax as well.

Now the flip side of this is where it becomes more about control than attempting to create conservation. For example there is already fear that since more Californians might buy fuel efficent cars that the revenue from the gas tax might go down. The revenue wasn't supposed to be the point. It was supposed to be the benefit from making people drive more efficient cars. Their solution is proposing to attach a GPS tracker to your car and charge you per mile driven. So the reward for good behavior becomes... Orwellian micromanagement and possible loss of freedom. Definately bad in my book.

So for example if you wanted those SUV driving sums a bitches... (I had to translate that into Texan for you and Grove) to pay a dollar per gallon gas tax. Fully advocate for that and I hope you get it passed. However if after that they pay their price and make their choice, you have to respect it.

So I guess my view would be we should create choices that encourage conservation for older items. Place pretty strict standards for efficency on newly built items and remember that we it should not be about controlling people.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #104 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
trumpt:
There are degrees into which you can buy into it, this is why he put "(as much)".

I could agree with this if we lived in some place that was only somewhat modernized. However last I checked the computers you used, the groceries you buy, the Internet we all surf was still all created by the same western society we all live in. Unless you can claim you do not benefit from it as much as others you are still part of the problem. The plastics for the keyboard you are typing on were created with oil products. The food you and I eat were processed with vehicles and machinery that all burn electricity and oil.

You seem to think you can somehow benefit from the society and not be part of the problem. It is like claiming the drug money your brother gave you to pay for college is okay because college is a good cause. The suffering of others had to occur to enable that. The rate you pay on electricity, the food you eat, the goods you own and the savings or retirement you have or will have are all related to this system. Even if it is a good system, the base of it, oil is causing suffering for others. Isn't that the point of this whole thread?

Quote:
Who isolated it to gas in a car? No one. That's all fellowship explicitly stated, perhaps, but that in no way indicates that he doesn't think of it past that. You should have asked him before going off on a rant.

And past that, he has a picture of a Kerry/Edwards sign, which would ostensibly mean an overall more environment-friendly focus (the legitimacy of the argument is another question entirely) and not simply a focus on cars alone.

I thought the sign was to show that he was an imperialist pig who had to let others die just so the sign could be made and allow him to express who he desired to have be president.

Man Grove you really don't get it. Energy and expansion are big parts of the economy. You might not drive a HUMMER but when you watch a football game via television all the energy that went into the broadcast, the creation of the stadiums, the manicuring of their little fields, the hopped up steroid popping players who train in their air conditioned weight rooms, etc. You enabled all that and thus you are part of the problem. By the reasoning of energy use is basically war, any energy use you personally use, but also endorse being used for others puts the blood on your hands. Since you are part of society and this society is covered in blood via oil, it is impossible to escape your share of the blame.

Fellowship for example drives a nice fuel efficient car this year. However he has also bought three cars in three years. Each one of those cars took say, 30 BARRELS worth of oil energy and effort. Each barrel is 50 gallons so that is 1500 gallons of oil he helped be used per year just in car purchases. Then he actually put the gas in them. My wife and I COMBINED might use 1500 gallons of gas per year in our cars which were already produced a minimum of 10 years ago.

So who has more blood on their hands? Fellowship single handedly brought about the consumption of 4500 gallons of oil via new car purchases. Does that mean he wants war more? If you purchased and maintained an older car does that mean you want war less? If the state uses the proceeds of the oil based economy to give you an education at a state university does that mean you have MORE blood on your hands?

Quote:
Yes, we fight wars over land and water. And those are two things we can curtail the consumption/pollution of. We need a certain amount to survive as carbon-based lifeforms, so it's quite a bit different than oil.

How do we curtail our use of land and water without using more energy? Do you think it is possible to live someplace like New York City without a fair amount of energy use? It is a trade-off as are all things. Also oil is just energy use. So if we burn trees or coal instead of oil does that harm the planet less?

See you make it sound like it was different before oil and the reality is it was the same. People still went to war over their limited resources and they will after oil as well. The only way to stop the trend is to expand the resources. We need to focus on that solution most.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #105 of 128
BTW perhaps this will help you understand a bit of what I mean by if you are a part of the system, you are a part of the problem.

Jevon's paradox

You are part of the problem. I assure you.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #106 of 128
trumpt:

Quote:
I could agree with this if we lived in some place that was only somewhat modernized. However last I checked the computers you used, the groceries you buy, the Internet we all surf was still all created by the same western society we all live in. Unless you can claim you do not benefit from it as much as others you are still part of the problem. The plastics for the keyboard you are typing on were created with oil products. The food you and I eat were processed with vehicles and machinery that all burn electricity and oil.

I know where computers came from and what they are made of.

When you post these long, rambling paragraphs do you really think those reading do not understand the myriad uses of oil in the American economy?

If you think I don't know, stop thinking that. Because I do. We all do. This is not news to any of us.

Quote:
You seem to think you can somehow benefit from the society and not be part of the problem.

When did I say anything at all like that?
I said:
There are degrees into which you can buy into it, this is why he put "(as much)".

I can have a computer and the Internet. But I can do without a car that gets less than 30MPG. I can live in a smaller house. I can make sure I minimize electricity as much as I can live with.

It's the grey between black and white.

Quote:
oes that mean he wants war more?

"Want" and "create demand for" are completely different concepts.
If he used more oil over the last 3 years than you then yes, he is contributing more to the push for oil acquisition/control than you did according to his logic; which is sound.

Quote:
How do we curtail our use of land and water without using more energy?

When did I say we should stop using energy?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #107 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
How many threads here have been used to criticize, bash, or otherwise push some anti-bush agenda?

If you go back, you will have a hard time finding ones that don't end up becoming just that.

I understand that just because he is president right now, there will be dimwits that blame him for every wrong and those that will attribute any good to him. I also realize that discussion is a good thing - a little back and forth, some spirited debate, if you will.

What I don't understand is a group of smart people, capable of some pretty cogent thought (as attested to by the recent "Athiest theology insider" thread, I think it was), have resigned themselves to simply hang everything on GWB as if everything that has happened in the last 4 years has no previous causation or influence. We just need to get rig of The Shrub and life will be grand. Ahhhhh bliss.....

I do however get the political convenience of it though, so that really could be motivating factor here. Truth and fairness be damned.

Do you see my point? Perhaps not...


Well to be honest it probably wouldn't be so bad if he didn't make himself such a great target.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #108 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
trumpt:



I know where computers came from and what they are made of.

When you post these long, rambling paragraphs do you really think those reading do not understand the myriad uses of oil in the American economy?

Oh come now Grove. I can't really say what I think of you. That would ruin all the fun.

Quote:
If you think I don't know, stop thinking that. Because I do. We all do. This is not news to any of us.

What is news is that you would sit there, type on your computer, go do your little consumption every Sunday, live your happy life and nod along with what is being said because it declares that it is okay because you only only seem to want war X amount or are only responsible for Y amount of innocent death and bloodshed.

How convenient! You live as you want and are rightous and good. Others do the same and are the devil baby-eaters, and all because of a few MPG.

Really, the hypocrisy of this reasoning almost makes me puke. Let's live our happy little yuppy life and when people point out that it harms others we can reply yes but we want their harm LESS than those bad SUV driving assholes.

I think I just had to swallow back some vomit right there.



Quote:
When did I say anything at all like that?
I said:
There are degrees into which you can buy into it, this is why he put "(as much)".

I can have a computer and the Internet. But I can do without a car that gets less than 30MPG. I can live in a smaller house. I can make sure I minimize electricity as much as I can live with.

It's the grey between black and white.

There aren't degrees in the realm you are discussing. That is what you don't get. Per capital use of energy in China is 872 KWh for the whole YEAR. In Mexico it is 1644 KWh. In the US it is over 13,338 KWh per year. Some cold countries are generally higher, for example Canada is 16,349 KWh per year.

We are not even talking about the same league here okay. Like I also said it isn't just about you, but what you enable as well. When you go to Best Buy and they run that air all day, that is enabled by you. When Fellowship goes to Vegas to get married, he enables the electrical use of that city.

Arguing this is about gray is like arguing that you and I had a jumping contest to see who could touch the moon and you were two inches closer to it leaping from the ground here on earth. Neither of us would be even close. The same goes for energy use in the U.S.

Quote:
"Want" and "create demand for" are completely different concepts.
If he used more oil over the last 3 years than you then yes, he is contributing more to the push for oil acquisition/control than you did according to his logic; which is sound.

and your prove my point which is to say that lifestyle equals create demand for war. Anyone who lives a lifestyle beyond the most basic needs creates a demand for war because the energy, land and water on the planet are limited. When you take more than your share for any reason be it driving or buying cars or driving to Best Buy and buying DVD's then you are part of the wealth that creates this demand.

Quote:
When did I say we should stop using energy?

It doesn't say that. Read again.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #109 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Oh come now Grove. I can't really say what I think of you. That would ruin all the fun.



What is news is that you would sit there, type on your computer, go do your little consumption every Sunday, live your happy life and nod along with what is being said because it declares that it is okay because you only only seem to want war X amount or are only responsible for Y amount of innocent death and bloodshed.

How convenient! You live as you want and are rightous and good. Others do the same and are the devil baby-eaters, and all because of a few MPG.

Really, the hypocrisy of this reasoning almost makes me puke. Let's live our happy little yuppy life and when people point out that it harms others we can reply yes but we want their harm LESS than those bad SUV driving assholes.

I think I just had to swallow back some vomit right there.





There aren't degrees in the realm you are discussing. That is what you don't get. Per capital use of energy in China is 872 KWh for the whole YEAR. In Mexico it is 1644 KWh. In the US it is over 13,338 KWh per year. Some cold countries are generally higher, for example Canada is 16,349 KWh per year.

We are not even talking about the same league here okay. Like I also said it isn't just about you, but what you enable as well. When you go to Best Buy and they run that air all day, that is enabled by you. When Fellowship goes to Vegas to get married, he enables the electrical use of that city.

Arguing this is about gray is like arguing that you and I had a jumping contest to see who could touch the moon and you were two inches closer to it leaping from the ground here on earth. Neither of us would be even close. The same goes for energy use in the U.S.



and your prove my point which is to say that lifestyle equals create demand for war. Anyone who lives a lifestyle beyond the most basic needs creates a demand for war because the energy, land and water on the planet are limited. When you take more than your share for any reason be it driving or buying cars or driving to Best Buy and buying DVD's then you are part of the wealth that creates this demand.



It doesn't say that. Read again.

Nick


" and your prove my point which is to say that lifestyle equals create demand for war. "

Only in a warmonger's mind. Geez what a stretch that was! I'd be willing to bet every one of us including you lives as good as they can. This also includes the poor people in 3rd world countries that don't have enough. It's the way life exists in the early 21rst century. Still it doesn't inspire me to bomb someone to have that life. Did you ever see the movie " The Three Days Of The Condor " ? In it there's a dialogue between Cliff Robertson and Robert Redford where the hero finds out the entire plot of the movie was just a ploy by a rouge branch of the CIA. Robertson : " You know when the oil runs out people won't be asking if we should do this. They'll just want us to get it for them ". Redford : " Boy have you found a home. " Very applicable in this reply to your post I think.

Yes the U.S. is a more technologically advanced country and we use more power. That doesn't justify waring on someone else to get it. If you really want to look at someone and point the blame look to some of Bush's oil buddies who lobby against change. God forbid we should find another way of doing this without so much oil!

I'm sorry but your justification falls a little short.

No matter where you go in this world there are always some that have more than someone else. It's the same anywhere in every strata of life. The only thing that makes a difference is how you conduct yourself and how you treat others. No matter how much or what they have. Get it?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #110 of 128
Quote:
You live as you want and are rightous and good. Others do the same and are the devil baby-eaters, and all because of a few MPG.

When did I say anything at all like that?

What youre doing now is trying to cover your trolling tracks by ratcheting up the rhetoric even more, employing the clever use of smilies and straw men arguments you then rail against. Do you think youre adding to the conversation? Do you think you could do a better job adding to the discussion if you stopped trolling so much?

Quote:
Arguing this is about gray is like arguing that you and I had a jumping contest to see who could touch the moon and you were two inches closer to it leaping from the ground here on earth. Neither of us would be even close. The same goes for energy use in the U.S.

That is a horribly misleading analogy (which goes without saying).
This isnt just you and me jumping, its over 250 million people jumping. And doing a better job of managing energy consumption and looking into alternative sources

Do you believe that 30 million people buying 40+mpg gallon cars (who normally might buy ~20mpg cars) at the end of their normal buying cycle and increasing that buying cycle by a few years would make a noticeable impact?
What if 3 million others decided to eschew cars altogether, move closer to their big city job and use public transportation?
What if 4 million more couples decided to only have 1 car instead of 2?
What if 1 million university/college students decided to live closer to campus instead of commuting from outlying neighborhoods?

You see, if I were a troll like you I would ask a ridiculous question like; Oh so youre saying that nothing anyone does matters so everyone who doesnt buy a Hummer is a big moron!?
But Im not a troll, so I dont. Do you see the difference in how you and I are wording our arguments yet?

I think youre using rhetoric to cover the fact that you dont really have anything to say.

Quote:
Anyone who lives a lifestyle beyond the most basic needs creates a demand for war because the energy, land and water on the planet are limited. When you take more than your share for any reason be it driving or buying cars or driving to Best Buy and buying DVD's then you are part of the wealth that creates this demand.

Yeah, thanks for catching up with the rest of the class.

Why am I constantly mistaken for someone who gives a crap about being seen as good and noble on the goddam Internet?
Yes, when I participate in the system I give that system positive reinforcement. I do. Me. I know that. Thats what Ive been saying from the very beginning.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #111 of 128
Quote:
Do you believe that 30 million people buying 40+mpg gallon cars (who normally might buy ~20mpg cars) at the end of their normal buying cycle and increasing that buying cycle by a few years would make a noticeable impact?

The only effect that this has is to make those 30 million people (probably in California) feel superior. Well - it will also improve their local air quality, but it will not decrease oil consumption.

It not that you are a fool if "you don't buy a hummer", but it is quite easy to sacrifice your quality of life without helping the world at all.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #112 of 128
Quote:
Well - it will also improve their local air quality, but it will not decrease oil consumption.

How would using less oil not decrease oil consumption?

Quote:
It not that you are a fool if "you don't buy a hummer", but it is quite easy to sacrifice your quality of life without helping the world at all.

What the hell does "the world" have to do with anything?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #113 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
How would using less oil not decrease oil consumption?

What the hell does "the world" have to do with anything?

Using less oil lowers the price, which causes somebody else (China for example) to use more - the oil usage is not effected.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #114 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Using less oil lowers the price, which causes somebody else (China for example) to use more - the oil usage is not effected.

Could you please answer this question:
What the hell does "the world" have to do with anything?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #115 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Using less oil lowers the price, which causes somebody else (China for example) to use more - the oil usage is not effected.

I must in all honesty admit that this concept is very true.

In the mid to late 90's the Asia Tiger Economies fell like a rock as did we see other problems in central america hence leading to surplus of fuel across the globe. This gave the American market CHEAP GAS. Who remembers the $0.89 gas we used to have??

I do

This idea of "hey man look we have CHEAP gas" led to the American automakers to produce and promote large SUV's afterall the cost of fuel was no issue...... Right? ? ?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #116 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Could you please answer this question:
What the hell does "the world" have to do with anything?

I thought that is what you were trying to accomplish - save the world by using less gas...
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #117 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I must in all honesty admit that this concept is very true.

In the mid to late 90's the Asia Tiger Economies fell like a rock as did we see other problems in central america hence leading to surplus of fuel across the globe. This gave the American market CHEAP GAS. Who remembers the $0.89 gas we used to have??

I do

This idea of "hey man look we have CHEAP gas" led to the American automakers to produce and promote large SUV's afterall the cost of fuel was no issue...... Right? ? ?

Few things are better than the feeling of getting the meat of a wood bat on an 80+mph fastball and watching that ball sail out of the park with your arms tingling as you round first.

Fellowship takes him deep!
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #118 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I thought that is what you were trying to accomplish - save the world by using less gas...

Read the thread again.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #119 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Read the thread again.

Allright, you are trying to stop war by using less gas?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #120 of 128
You're getting closer.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
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