Who will be the new Pope? - Page 2  

A borderline personal attack is not a substitute for having your facts straight. Let's try to keep this thread from degrading further.

I love it when unbeliever lectures others on what their faith should represent, based on limited understanding and a completely opposite worldview.

It's funny that they don't get the intolerance of the very idea.


Anyway, with regards to the "Pope as Antichrist" thing, that view was held several centuries back, when church and state were both ruled together by some very corrupt, even evil people.

So for many in that age, it was easy to see the Pope as Antichrist.

But in terms of modern biblical views, I think there's a consensus that there is a separation of the two main end-time "evil" players.

The Antichrist holds political power, assigning armies, kicking nations out of the Empire etc.

The False Prophet holds considerable sway in public religious opinion, and "backs up" the legitimacy of the Antichrist's reign. He commands a religious body that has considerable influence across nations and governments.

Problem is, there's only one European entity that can fit that bill.

Next time I see a Vegan wearing leather pants and eating a hot dog I'll "lecture" them similarly...

Does one somehow lose the ability to grasp the tenets of another person's espoused beliefs just because one does not share that belief?

What part of Luke 6:27-36, pray, do I not fully comprehend, in my pagan ignorance?
...

Anyhoo, thanks for posting a more accurate link Giant. Of course Google has extraneous results, and really I only meant "here, do a search for yourself" more than "look at these specific links".

Yes. Quite hilarious that.



Oh. Well thank God the thinking on this is all up to date and all.....

The world was supposed to end in 2000 : it failed.

People who said that antechrist will be the next pope, are just catholic haters or winged catholics and let's say jew haters : http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm

I think that the antechrist is more a parabole than anything else. In a way, communism and nazis where antechrist : falses prophetes.

Well you are right, it's one of the oldest still alive.

No, that's not the problem.

I think it's more (imagine my shock) one of the low level of what at present passes for fundamentalist 'thought'.

Christian eschatology clearly postulates the antiChrist as coming from 'the east' rather than 'Europe'.

If Islam had a Pope that would definitely fit the bill. In many ways, the Catholics are just a stand-in as enemy #2.

My understanding of Christian eschatology puts "the Kings of the East" as fielding an army of 200 million men at Armageddon. That's obviously China.

The Antichrist is supposed to head up a revived Roman empire (the feet in Daniel's statue.) A revived Roman empire would most likely be in the place the original empire existed, namely Europe.

Its leaders were in Europe, the Empire was much bigger than just Europe.

Hi Frank, the problem with referencing NT prophecies regarding the end of days to OT ones is twofold:

1) The OT were in the vast majority of cases NOT intended to be end of the world scenarios but merely seen to be 'in the future' and referring to the end of kingdoms and rulers - particularly intertwined with the fate of Israel.

Later Christians legitimised their own Israel-connection (as they had to in order to co-opt the basis of the religion) by identifying with these and as is usual, bad scholarship, lack of insight and abominable theological innovation mixed with a stupidity elevated to a duty did the rest.

2) Following on from above - there can be no connection between Daniel's alleged references to the anti-Christ and John's conception because the Jews did not and do not see Jesus as the Messiah.

In fact, the idea that God has a son or that the Messiah could be that son is utter blasphemy to them. Therefore: not only is Jesus not the Messiah but the Messiah has not yet arrived.

Therefore again, all OT prophecies are inadmissable in regard to the antiChrist because they apply to something quite different. I'm afraid that this is yet another case of 'tampering'. A more serious one than usual.

Strangely for the supposed possessors of 'God's truth', Christian thought has always had this tendency to redecorate its own house in the most vulgar and inappropriate taste but oddly, it also seems under a compulsion to destroy all the interior furniture and supporting walls. To say nothing of the outlying gardens.

Fair enough - it is its own house (sort of) after all, but in the case of Judaism, it broke into its neighbour's house, did exactly the same thing (but worse), oppressed and abused the owners when they complained and then claimed that they owned the house all along.

Something needs to be done about this kind of hooliganism.....

And another thing : the 'Revived Roman Empire' stuff is true (and interesting evidence of later insertion and tampering with key texts to make them appear Prophetic) but militates against the veracity of these claims.

Basically, 'Roman Empire' filled in the blanks of the space marked Enemy to Demonise as the most likely contender.

If Islam had been around it would have beaten all comers and been in that box by a mile. The fact that it wasn't put there and Rome was chosen instead anchors these 'Prophecies' clearly in Palestine of the Roman era and hence not looking forward to anywhere else.

A Prophecy is supposed to predict the future - not just project the then present forward and replay the same circumstances but thousands of years removed.

I was wondering if you could expand on the above.

What exactly are you saying?

Fellows

Hehe Fellows sometimes I get carried away, Mrs Segovius says I should be

Just my picaresque way of saying that imo, the Church relatively early on identified the key tenets of Christ's message and went full steam in the other direction. I was watching the Pope's funeral earlier and it just struck me that, historic and well-done though it was, it was about as far removed from the original Christian ethos as it's possible to get.

When I was a kid we had all sorts of Christian movers and shakers staying around and it was kind of an open-house, community sort of thing. This was the tail end of the 60's and the 'Jesus Freaks' etc but I have to say that those guys were far nearer (again imo) to the message than a monolithic Church construct.

I remember this guy who stayed over once called Arthur Blessit (really !) and he was carting this cross around the world - wanted to carry it to every country, maybe he did, I don't know.

Anyway, we talked of how people reacted and where he left his cross at night etc (as you do) and you know what he said ? He told me that he never asked at Churches as he always got kicked out and viewed with suspicion. They always refused to let him leave the cross there or stay the night !

He always asked at pubs he said - they looked after it and gave him free breakfasts and let him sleep over for free ! Can you believe that ? Really, I'm not making it up !

I have another take on the antichrist thing for consideration.

Its quite simple. Imagine creating a huge lie that millions of people believed, the problems with lies, is that they eventually get discovered, and if you are going to fabricate a whopper of a lie, it would make sense to prempt the discovery of the lie, by a another lie that foretold the discovery of the first lie and the consequences of such.

so I think its possible that Revelations is the premptive strike to instill fear (and whipping believers into line) into people when the time comes that the Bible and the stories of Jesus are discovered to be false, and lies. So in effect, the events of revelations are happening and being effected in the age we live in.

Of course, as I am one of the bringers of such Revelations, er... education about the truthfullness of the Bible and of Jesus zodiacal story, I guess that makes me the AppleOutsider AntiChrist.

How cool.

Or maybe the antiChrist is just the post-Jesus Christians.....

I think I have expressed that opinion before. It might well be.

What I find interesting, are all these wierd creatures are representational morphs of constellations, and the instruction by GOD in Genesis to let [constellations] them be for signs. So there is an instruction to study astrology in Genesis, so you can decipher Revelations.

We now know that the Pantheon was built to hold money. A "safe" if you will for the citizens of Athen. The same is true for jewish temples.
And of course for christian churches. Christianity was never propagated by good deeds only by money and control of money.
That's why they don't really like the buddhist idea of happiness = not needing anything. The catholic church's main objective is to control their flok by showing off their might, build huge churches and use as much gold as possible.

Jesus said: Don't build me temples.

No body listened, because this would be bad for business.

I think Ken Lay will be the next pope.

What the..? Nobody told ME it was 'fabricate historical fiction' day.

You don't realise there's a funeral going on in Rome ??????

Your brain:

0111101001101001010011111100100101

Your brain on christianity (or any other religion):

$#@$#%@$$#%$^^#%%#$$#%%#$$@##@$$#

Just for my own records, what was the state of your brain during this post ?

Religioned-up or God-free ?

Such a funny guy.

I find it interesting Catholic or not that one must be so childish in such a thread considering the events of this week.

Fellows

The cost of this funeral could provide healthcare for the entire world.
Jesus would have wanted that instead.

Why do you suppose so many showed up to his funeral?

I think you forget that the "Church" Catholic and other provide a great deal of aid for human needs across the globe. Along with the efforts of science and private secular trusts such as Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

I think this is not the issue. I think the real issue I called you on was the fact you were being childish and rude in a thread that should exclude such remarks.

Fellows

This is one of the most stupid statement I ever read. Two reasons :


1) - The catholic church did not ask millions of people to come at the funeral of JP2.

2) - You have absolutely no clue what represant healthcare for the entire world.

Which is what makes it so easy to ignore his comments.

Hang on. Doctor Who is going to be the new Pope? Really?

Fellowship, giant has a point...

That the Catholic church has some absolutely atrocious and dastardly deeds (and rotten Popes...) in it's history, there is no doubt. As a Lutheran in upbringing, I have some real opposing issues with Catholicism. With this Pope in particular, I felt he should have dropped the Ax on the pedophile priests, no mercy... I felt he could have "officially" softened the churches position on birth control, women in the clergy and yes, even gays.

Despite the above, I am convinced that this Pope was a true man of God, honorable and honest in his intent. Whether I agreed or not with the policies that he represented. Arguably, he may have done more for world peace (an impossible job on this planet of the apes, yes...) than all other western "religious" leaders put together... I don't care who you name or what denomination you consider yourself.

Dems some big shoes to fill...

And another thing...

Yeah, the media is going to continue to bombard us with things "The Pope". He was after all, one of histories most important figures of the last thirty years. You can't take that away from him despite however you may feel about him or religion for that matter.

Just as an aside, I've kinda been glancing over the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Man, those schmoes have hardly given the Pope a mention. Amazing...

I agree - this is an excellent point.

'Dropping the ax' is arguably not a Christian thing to do. By being tolerant and forgiving he was maybe being more Christian.

And in a Christian sense, who are we to judge anyway ?

People will say that forgiving paedophiles etc is not possible or appropriate and maybe I even agree in part, but nevertheless, unless we want to change the rules then this is what being a Christian is (or should be) all about.

That's what Christ taught. No exceptions. Unconditionally.

I don't know about that, His pacifism may have been more general, and if it was specific [the 'turn the other cheek', was illustrated in part with conscription], was probably directed at the Romans.

Also, as one who kept the moral law (let's leave the ceremonial alone) perfectly, I can't see Christ not bringing a paedophile to the appropriate authorities.

I'd just like to emphasize that I think the Catholic Church happens to be the single largest humanitarian aide organization in the world. I could be wrong, but I think that's the case.

Well, us humans can't and don't forgive. Forgiveness is a judgment, albeit a positive one. Only God can forgive. Only through God's grace can there be forgiveness, because for it to happen we must first ask Jesus for forgiveness for our sins. The forgiveness comes from God – not the other humans.

("He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." ...after all.) Sinners can't judge nor forgive. They can only ask to receive God's grace, to forgive while being forgiven (by God).

You ask for forgiveness (in Jesus' name) of your own sins and (if you are truly repentant) baddabing, baddaboom, (if it's God's will), a spirit of forgiveness for others envelops you. And, being then truly forgiven (if you were truly repentant, important!), you then can feel like you are really forgiving someone, not in words alone.

This human-to-human interaction of blame and "seeming" forgiveness isn't worth spit if it removes God/Jesus/Holy Spirit from the process.

If I understood things correctly all those years in Sunday school/church, that is.

"To err is human, to forgive is divine"

"Father, forgive them; they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34)

It wasn't (from the cross) "Hey, all you mean people down there spitting at me, calling me bad names and poking me with spears...I forgive you; you do not know what you are doing"

If you say you forgive someone, fine, but it's a kind of weak, secular, feel-good forgiveness that might not hold up over time.

(My forgiveness does'nt last very long in my little Atheism Land.
Which is why I'd like there to be "a God" but I truly doubt there is one. )

Note, part of my repulsion towards adherents of certain faiths is due to some just using "God" as a kind of "backup" to their own personal judgments.

People run around like little mini-Gods, judging others as well as "forgiving" them, all for the very real, addictive, physical and psychological highs that are created from such actions.

But that's not following their religion's true tenets. It's just painting-by-numbers as opposed to art.

Religious humanitarian efforts are really missionary efforts.

We did that "send $20 a month to support a 3rd world child" a while back, and the child sent us letters filled with fire and brimstone. We were basically paying for religious brainwashing.

I assume that you mean the catholic church is older because the Japaneese Empire does not exist.

There is still a Japaneese emporer - the institution is still alive - just like the British Crown, and it is older than the Catholic church.

Back to topic...

Father Guido Sarducci will be the next Pope!

Are Catholics not in the least bothered by the fact that they are a 1.1 billion people organization, yet only 180 may vote for the papalcy?

Isn't there something in the bible about all men being equal in the face of god. Does this mean some people are a bit more equal than others. Is it because they wear these extremely gay looking robes?

Where in the bible does it prescribe that there must be a leader of the church like the pope? Or even priests? No where.

This whole thing is definetly not about following Jesus. Jesus made sense. This doesn't.
The next pope will be a man. Elected by men.
The most important requisit to be pope is a penis. I guess vaginas are too "holy".

You should look into Catholic symbolism, there are vaginas all over the place.

Lol, thank you, I've been saying that for years. So true. Boggles the mind how people don't see it.