or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Apple simultaneously developing several Mac OS X updates
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple simultaneously developing several Mac OS X updates - Page 3

post #81 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kcmac
You can't attract everyone. You can't educate everyone. Not everyone will agree with you even if you have rock solid proof. That is OK. Apple, nor you, nor anyone else can do anything about this.

People have to come to their own decision whether through study, trying it first hand or maybe a friend gets them interested.

Most people only use PC's and have only used PC's because this is all they have been exposed to at work. If their experience is bad, they can only imagine it would be worse at home without IT so they stick with the PC. If they have a good experience or even nominally good, why change?

Why does everyone worry about this so much?

I drive a Mini Cooper. I think it is a great car. Best I've ever had. Most fun ever. Should everyone get one? I hope not. I kind of like the minority to tell you the truth. Being different is a good thing in life if you can embrace it. If not, then buy the Accord, stick with the PC, eat vanilla ice cream. Why should I care? How does it affect my life?

You mean that Neither Apple etc.?

I can basically agree with you.

There is a difference between a computer platform and an auto, though. It's why I wince at the "BMW = Apple" analogy.

As long as you can get parts for your Cooper, you're all right. The gas and oil won't be a problem either. If your tyres (since it's British, I felt it would be happier with that spelling), are of a standard size, then you're set there as well. Water, if it's water cooled, is pretty much the same wherever you go as well.

But computers are different. If there isn't a large enough market share, then there is erosion of hardware, and software. We see this every day. Companies dropping support for the Mac is more common than I'm happy with. Even if I don't use those programs or hardware.

Two good examples are pro level video cards, and games.

A long time ago and far away, Macs had the only pro video cards out of the workstation market. The PC had none. Now the PC has plenty, and the MAC has none.

Care to guess why?

The Mac has never been much for games, and I understand why. In the old days ('80's, early '90"s), the Mac was called a toy so often that Apple didn't want to encourage that image by actively seeking out games for the platform. Indeed, they discouraged them!

After the fiasco of Christmas '95, when Apple's market share started dropping from 12%, Apple started to look to games to bring sales back to the platform because the home market which had just exceeded the business market for yearly computer sales, was being driven by the new graphic games. They wrote software to enable game writing for the Mac. But with sales falling, they never succeeded in convincing developers that equal ports were worthwhile. We still see this problem today.

Unless Apple can get their market share back up, we will continue to have problems.

There may be hope on the pro video board issue, but games are going to be a problem. And as that is what attracts many younger people to a platform, it's going to be an issue for Apple.

The chicken and the egg.

I just feel that Apple shouldn't release until they are satisfied, and don't look at an arbitrary date that means nothing anyway.

I stated that I didn't think that Apple would announce on the 1st, and that I didn't believe that they would ship for the 15th. I still believe that.

I still don't think that we'll see it before the end of the month.

The deadline is June 30th. I think i'll be here for the conference. We'll see.
post #82 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
You mean that Neither Apple etc.?

I can basically agree with you.

There is a difference between a computer platform and an auto, though. It's why I wince at the "BMW = Apple" analogy.

As long as you can get parts for your Cooper, you're all right. The gas and oil won't be a problem either. If your tyres (since it's British, I felt it would be happier with that spelling), are of a standard size, then you're set there as well. Water, if it's water cooled, is pretty much the same wherever you go as well.

But computers are different. If there isn't a large enough market share, then there is erosion of hardware, and software. We see this every day. Companies dropping support for the Mac is more common than I'm happy with. Even if I don't use those programs or hardware.

Two good examples are pro level video cards, and games.

A long time ago and far away, Macs had the only pro video cards out of the workstation market. The PC had none. Now the PC has plenty, and the MAC has none.

Care to guess why?

The Mac has never been much for games, and I understand why. In the old days ('80's, early '90"s), the Mac was called a toy so often that Apple didn't want to encourage that image by actively seeking out games for the platform. Indeed, they discouraged them!

After the fiasco of Christmas '95, when Apple's market share started dropping from 12%, Apple started to look to games to bring sales back to the platform because the home market which had just exceeded the business market for yearly computer sales, was being driven by the new graphic games. They wrote software to enable game writing for the Mac. But with sales falling, they never succeeded in convincing developers that equal ports were worthwhile. We still see this problem today.

Unless Apple can get their market share back up, we will continue to have problems.

There may be hope on the pro video board issue, but games are going to be a problem. And as that is what attracts many younger people to a platform, it's going to be an issue for Apple.

The chicken and the egg.

I just feel that Apple shouldn't release until they are satisfied, and don't look at an arbitrary date that means nothing anyway.

I stated that I didn't think that Apple would announce on the 1st, and that I didn't believe that they would ship for the 15th. I still believe that.

I still don't think that we'll see it before the end of the month.

The deadline is June 30th. I think i'll be here for the conference. We'll see.

I wasn't attempting to make a car analogy. Could have said I think yellow sweet corn is the best ever. Better than white corn. I was making a point that I like what I like, don't mind being in the minority and others can make their own decisions as they really have no great bearing on how I live my life.

I don't have problems with the software for the Mac. And I think that situation is getting better everyday the stronger Mac OS X becomes. There are terrific apps out there. More than ever before and from a wider variety of users. (Nix users for instance.)

I like the Mac better now than anytime ever before. It kicks a$$ on any version to date. Everyone I know that uses a Mac (people I actually see) feel the same way.

Market share has been beaten to death in this and many other boards. It is basically meaningless since no one really knows how it is calculated and it is used to the advantage of the person making the argument in whatever way they feel will make them more correct. (Home user share, dummy machine share, global share, US share, closet share, mind share, etc.)

I guess I also don't see the bailout of software you talk about. What you are referring to is things that happened prior or up to the second coming of Steve Jobs.

I do believe as you do that Tiger should be put out when it is ready. But again, ready means different things to different people. So as always, the new OS will truly be ready for YOU when YOU are ready. Could be that it will be available much sooner than that.

I think Kickaha has said this better than me so I'm with him.
iPad2 16 GB Wifi

Who is worse? A TROLL or a person that feeds & quotes a TROLL? You're both idiots.....
Reply
iPad2 16 GB Wifi

Who is worse? A TROLL or a person that feeds & quotes a TROLL? You're both idiots.....
Reply
post #83 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kcmac
I wasn't attempting to make a car analogy. Could have said I think yellow sweet corn is the best ever. Better than white corn. I was making a point that I like what I like, don't mind being in the minority and others can make their own decisions as they really have no great bearing on how I live my life.

I don't have problems with the software for the Mac. And I think that situation is getting better everyday the stronger Mac OS X becomes. There are terrific apps out there. More than ever before and from a wider variety of users. (Nix users for instance.)

I like the Mac better now than anytime ever before. It kicks a$$ on any version to date. Everyone I know that uses a Mac (people I actually see) feel the same way.

Market share has been beaten to death in this and many other boards. It is basically meaningless since no one really knows how it is calculated and it is used to the advantage of the person making the argument in whatever way they feel will make them more correct. (Home user share, dummy machine share, global share, US share, closet share, mind share, etc.)

I guess I also don't see the bailout of software you talk about. What you are referring to is things that happened prior or up to the second coming of Steve Jobs.

I do believe as you do that Tiger should be put out when it is ready. But again, ready means different things to different people. So as always, the new OS will truly be ready for YOU when YOU are ready. Could be that it will be available much sooner than that.

I think Kickaha has said this better than me so I'm with him.

You mentioned the car, so I went with that.

I think that some dynamite software has come out, and some companies actually have come back. The ones that have, have come back in areas in which Mac sales have gone up.

It's very well understood what marketshare means. It's the percentage of new computers sold. The numbers are pretty accurate, and are used to judge industry sales across the board. It is broken down into several catagories as you jokingly noted.

As new buyers have been shown to buy the majority of software, it's a good indicator of where things are going.

We are losing software every time we read it on the web, or get a notice that they are dropping support. Symantic has recently told us that they will no longer upgrade Systemworks for the Mac, and they will only support the current version on 10.3. Only Nortons Anti-Virus will be available. Whatever you may think of it, it will be a loss.

We've lost a number of networking apps as well. There are plenty. It hasn't stopped with Stevie coming back. If sales continue to go up, we will hopefully see less of that, and more coming back.
post #84 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
We are losing software every time we read it on the web, or get a notice that they are dropping support. Symantic has recently told us that they will no longer upgrade Systemworks for the Mac, and they will only support the current version on 10.3. Only Nortons Anti-Virus will be available. Whatever you may think of it, it will be a loss.

They dumped Norton Utilities for BOTH Mac and Windows.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #85 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I stated that I didn't think that Apple would announce on the 1st, and that I didn't believe that they would ship for the 15th. I still believe that.

I still don't think that we'll see it before the end of the month.

The deadline is June 30th. I think i'll be here for the conference. We'll see.

Tiger is finished - 8A428 is GM - Apple hasn't seeded any Mac OS X build since 28 March.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #86 of 97
Just keeping my fingers crossed that there is not a repeat of 10.3.0.

Hell, I'll take that. Just give us Tiger.
post #87 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
They dumped Norton Utilities for BOTH Mac and Windows.

Symantic has a full range of suites of utilities for Windows.

Their Enterprise Products and Services Division:

http://enterprisesecurity.symantec.c...roductlink.cfm

Their Small Business Division:

http://www.symantec.com/product/index_smallbiz.html

Their Home and Office Division:

http://www.symantec.com/product/index_homecomp.html

Featured Products and Services area:

http://www.symantec.com/product/index.html

Their Enterprise Security Services Division:

http://enterprisesecurity.symantec.c...?ArticleID=684

And, did I forget something? Oh yes, their Macintosh Division:

http://www.symantec.com/product/index_macintosh.html

Virus protection. That's all that will be left after Tiger, which has just been announced.

What was that about Utilities for the PC? You see the same problem for the PC? I don't.
post #88 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Tiger is finished - 8A428 is GM - Apple hasn't seeded any Mac OS X build since 28 March.

My people in Apple had told me, when Appleinsider and Thinksecret said that it would be announced on the 1st and would ship the 15th, that it would not happen. The earliest would be the end of the month. I thought that it might not be until the conference.

You haven't been reading this thread or you would have seen that quite a while ago. I said the same thing in other threads here. I said it as soon as they stated that it would. This isn't hindsight.

Ok, so it will be out at the end of the month, earlier than I hoped, but not earlier than I was told it might be..

What is, is, as they say.

Shortly we can get to arguing about the OS itself, no doubt.
post #89 of 97
That'd be a wonderful change.

mel, if you want to get into which platform has the biggest number of titles, then I don't know what to tell you. Take a close look at those products from Symantec, and note that most of them simply aren't needed on the Mac. That's why they don't exist... they aren't needed.

This is like hearing switchers gripe that there's no defrag tool from Apple... the filesystem is smart enough to eliminate most of the fragmentation automatically as it goes, so no need. For that small segment of the market (and it is small) that *needs* full defrag, there are commercial tools for cheap.

The better the underlying product, the fewer band-aid products you need to make it livable. Symantec sells band-aids.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
post #90 of 97
I'm sure we'll still find a way to make it more about "Me me me' and ego mongering.
post #91 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Symantic has a full range of suites of utilities for Windows.

So? They are two different systems requiring different tools.

Should they release everything for Mac OS X just to have it? Even though the Mac is a different beast requiring other tools to fix problems?

Would a product like Norton Password Manager really sell on Mac OS X when we have Keychain?

Symantec is filling gaps.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #92 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
I'm sure we'll still find a way to make it more about "Me me me' and ego mongering.

You're right. If we all didn't have ego's, we wouldn't be doing this.
post #93 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
So? They are two different systems requiring different tools.

Should they release everything for Mac OS X just to have it? Even though the Mac is a different beast requiring other tools to fix problems?

Would a product like Norton Password Manager really sell on Mac OS X when we have Keychain?

Symantec is filling gaps.

If that's all you can say after seeing (you did look, didn't you?) that massive amount of programs, tools, etc., then you just don't want to know.

Symantic is about business. Their tools are about business. They are not just "filling in the gaps".

There is a level of support for MS products and services that simply doesn't exist for the Mac.

This degree of support and services is one of the main reasons Business stays with MS. It's not just about "fix(ing) problems", it's about helping to run your business.

Why don't you actually go and look at what they offer?

Should I post the other major companies that offer support and services for business that don't include the Mac? There are dozens.
post #94 of 97
No mel, there are hundreds. Thousands even.

The point is: who cares? Really. Pick the platform that has the solutions you need, with the lowest overall cost. End of story.

You're not going to get those businesses porting to Mac if there's no market. There's no market if there are no solutions in the first place. Chicken, meet egg. You're not going to solve it, neither am I.

For general purpose computing, general office work, and a *lot* of scientific modeling, number crunching, and visualization, the Mac is *perfect*. Those with specialized needs will go elsewhere, but they'll pay through the nose. That's just the way it is.

Unless you have a solution in mind, of course, in which case I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
post #95 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
No mel, there are hundreds. Thousands even.

The point is: who cares? Really. Pick the platform that has the solutions you need, with the lowest overall cost. End of story.

You're not going to get those businesses porting to Mac if there's no market. There's no market if there are no solutions in the first place. Chicken, meet egg. You're not going to solve it, neither am I.

For general purpose computing, general office work, and a *lot* of scientific modeling, number crunching, and visualization, the Mac is *perfect*. Those with specialized needs will go elsewhere, but they'll pay through the nose. That's just the way it is.

Unless you have a solution in mind, of course, in which case I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.

Yes, I know. I was just picking off the top of the litter, so to speak.

Yes, the chicken and the egg, I think I mentioned that sometime back.

The solution is for Apple to give business what they want, rather than trying to push what Apple wants. This has been the problem for some time. Actually, from the beginning.

When the Mac first came out, business was interested. I remember those days, though you weren't around back then (egg?) The problem was that they didn't like the closed little box, or the fixed, small screen, they didn't like that they couldn't install an HD, or video boards, or modems, etc.

When they approached Apple about that, the response was: Take it or leave it.

Well, you know what happened.

After Jobs left, Apple came out with the Mac II, which solved all of those problems, but it was late, and while they did convert a number of high tech companies, other business's were already entrenched with the Pc.

When Scully raised the price of the Mac in the late '80's, after turning down Ms's offer to license the OS, Apple's marketshare went from 15% to 12%.

I'm not going to detail the entire history, but these points and others have led to the position that Apple is in now.

If Apple did what it should have, it might have a marketshare of over 20% today.

Spindler releasing obsolete 620's the '95 christmas season, then dumping them instead of giving them to schools and libraries, as he was begged to do.

Jobs coming back to Apple as it's CEO, and stating that "the enterprise is not our customer".

Killing the Newton just as it's sales jumped.

Killing the clones the way he did, alienating Motorola, and having them go from being a Mac company to an NT company. One of the major reasons the G4's development was slowed.

Discontinuing the VERY popular crt monitor line. These were popular with PC users as well.

High prices. Oh, yes, and high prices.

Only now, with the success of the iPod and iTunes, does he understand the importance of marketshare, hence the Mini.

As far as solving these problems is concerned, while I don't really program any more (mostly Fortran), you are graduating. Instead of working for a firm that writes software for the PC market, go and work to expand the Mac's software base. So, sure, you CAN help.

My solution, as I mentioned above is to do what IBM has done successfully over the decades, give the customer what they want, not what you want them to have.

Apple has lacked this understanding.
post #96 of 97
First let me say that I appreciate your obviously thought-out contributions to this forum.

Something to note though: Some of them come across as combatively omniscient. Perhaps this is a regional thing, with NYC culture being more "in your face" than other places.

Repeated long lists of things, which others have done wrong but you have the only solution to, tend to antagonize. Perhaps a touch of occasional acquiescence or uncertainty would lend to your credibility... and less teeth grinding by people like me.

Must every post contain a list of things that, you personally, can do better than apple?

But again, thanks for the contributions. They certainly have spurred thought.
post #97 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
First let me say that I appreciate your obviously thought-out contributions to this forum.

Something to note though: Some of them come across as combatively omniscient. Perhaps this is a regional thing, with NYC culture being more "in your face" than other places.

Repeated long lists of things, which others have done wrong but you have the only solution to, tend to antagonize. Perhaps a touch of occasional acquiescence or uncertainty would lend to your credibility... and less teeth grinding by people like me.

Must every post contain a list of things that, you personally, can do better than apple?

But again, thanks for the contributions. They certainly have spurred thought.

I don't mean to be abrasive, but my writing style, when giving information, has been formed from writing in journals, it just comes out that way.

My lists are not from just my thinking, they have been mentioned many times before in publications such as Computerworld, Infoworld, in articles analyzing why Apple has been where they are, rather than where they could be. People with a closer understanding of the industry than I have, have brought these matters up over the years. I remember them because I've been around for a while, and I've seen the results of a lot of these actions.

I also have to deal with them on a regular basis here in the NYC Board of Ed. in which I'm a technological consultant (dollar a year).

If you read back, you will see that in a number of my posts I agree with what others have to say.

It would be nice though, if people could accept information and opinions without getting upset about it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Apple simultaneously developing several Mac OS X updates