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Even more disapointing TS news

post #1 of 241
Thread Starter 
Well according to TS they have now say that PCI-E and Dual Core is defiantly not in the cards for the next update. The update wont even feature a new processor, yup they are just using a 200 mhz speed bumped FX. So what do we have after almost a year of waiting...200mhz...period. Ram and hardrive and small GPU updates are irrelivent. If this is true then apple has sinked to a new low. I would be ashamed of putting out an update like this after a year. For apple's sake I really hope TS is wrong about this update and goes down in flames after the annoucment is made.
post #2 of 241
I give it 50/50 that TS is dead on, due to problems at IBM, or that Apple is performing aggressive leak control and feeding out misinformation to see who's leaking it.
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post #3 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
I give it 50/50 that TS is dead on, due to problems at IBM, or that Apple is performing aggressive leak control and feeding out misinformation to see who's leaking it.

I wish I could be more optimistic..but Im willing to bet that this info is true.
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post #4 of 241
Quote:
If this is true then apple has sinked to a new low.

I take it you weren't a Mac user back during the Powermac G4 500Mhz debacle. This is childs play by comparison.
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post #5 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by hypoluxa
I wish I could be more optimistic..but Im willing to bet that this info is true.

Cheer up!

Perhaps these machines will be 'the first' to ship with 16X SuperDrives and DL support - (i.e. Apple might choose to de-cripple the drives that they have been installing for however many months...).
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post #6 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
Cheer up!

Perhaps these machines will be 'the first' to ship with 16X SuperDrives and DL support - (i.e. Apple might choose to de-cripple the drives that they have been installing for however many months...).

Oh boy. Now were pushing the limits.
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post #7 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
Cheer up!

Perhaps these machines will be 'the first' to ship with 16X SuperDrives and DL support - (i.e. Apple might choose to de-cripple the drives that they have been installing for however many months...).

They couldn't if they wanted to. It'd be a PR nightmare.


Suddenly all the Powermacs with Superdrive "B" would gain DL support whilst those with Superdrive "C" would not because the drives were sourced from two different manufacturers. Apple doesn't do it out of spite if they must limit the functioning of a device.
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post #8 of 241
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
I take it you weren't a Mac user back during the Powermac G4 500Mhz debacle. This is childs play by comparison.

Haha im currently a proud owner of the system you speak of At least back then they were updating every six months or so...even though they sometimes went backwards 50mhz
post #9 of 241
Yeah...I remember my frustration well. Quite honestly I'd be suprised to see Apple announce the specs that TS has on their site. I just don't see a reason why they wouldn't have their next motherboard ready.
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post #10 of 241
Sorry, I am very skeptical of what TS has been saying.
My feeling is at WWDC we'll see the new Powermac and I doubt Steve Jobs is just updating Powermacs by 200mhz.
I am confident something better is coming.
Once again, TS is under the gun. Whoever leeks information is scare to do so now. They are just speculating, i don't think they have any real info.
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post #11 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by gugy

Once again, TS is under the gun. Whoever leeks information is scare to do so now. They are just speculating, i don't think they have any real info.

No one knows what really happens. But then again, if Apple can release something good at WWDC (say 970MP-based dual processor Power Macs - the famous Quad Mac), why let Intel steal the thunder like they did? And AMD follows soon.

Sorry, but I am afraid TS is right. I don't want to believe it, but there is zero evidence that they are wrong. It is just that the Power Mac is approaching one year without any update, and the alleged new machines will have an 8% improvement in performance in the high end, that make us willing to reject TS prediction as false.
post #12 of 241
I'm willing to bet that TS is 100% dead on accurate. They will be updated without fanfare by the end of the month.

What probably will happen though is that Steve will announce and discuss the 970MP and GX, as well as a new mobo, at WWDC, but they won't ship until August or September. This is where things like PCIe will be added to the PMacs. If I'm right, then this may also see the introduction of the long awaited PBook G5, even if it doesn't ship until fall.

In addition, a large part of the Stevenote will probably focus on Blu-Ray and HD DVD. My guess is that Apple is pushing the "agnostic front" route. It supports Blu-ray, but wants to avoid a pointless format war. (In a format war, Blu-ray would lose simply because of naming conventions; but in a world where burners and players don't care which media you use, Blu-ray will triumph ultimately.)

PS. Although Intel and Opteron dual-core chips will be in production by June, we won't see them in high volume until August. PC devotees will have a few months of bragging rights, but little more than that.
post #13 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by DCQ
PS. Although Intel and Opteron dual-core chips will be in production by June, we won't see them in high volume until August. PC devotees will have a few months of bragging rights, but little more than that.

The problem I see is marketing, the impressions war. I think Apple is in vital need to show that they are able to innovate and lead the industry. Their place in this market is of low tolerance in such "mistakes".

And I am wondering: where is IBM's expertise in dual core designs? What happened in the meantime? It is sad, to say the least, to have on your side the only big chip designer and producer, with long experience in dual core designs, manufacture for you a processor (G5) coming already from a dual core server chip (Power4), and nevertheless join (too?) late the dual core party. If the TS rumor is proved to be true, we have to recognise that this would be a harsh slap in the face for Apple and, mostly, IBM.
post #14 of 241
Folks, Im telling ya, the specs are probably without a doubt true..I remember reading about the previous PM update here or at another mac site and the rumors ended being true. I can't prove it obviously but I swear I read it somewhere here or in the ether.
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post #15 of 241
if TS is right, will be an hard time for apple' s pmac selling. They need to migrate PCIe amd dual core (quad processors) NOW, not september.
Intel and AMD are just selling dual core, tiger is here, the new video suite is here, maya unlimited is here, domm 3 and a lot of application that need cpu power are here. And Adobe and Macromedia are 1 now, so we must espect even worst porting on mac platform, so more power to compete with pc.
every month without a brad new mobo pmac is a step behind in market for apple

at least in my opinion... and sorry for bad and poor english
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post #16 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by hypoluxa
I remember reading about the previous PM update here or at another mac site and the rumors ended being true. I can't prove it obviously but I swear I read it somewhere here or in the ether.

If you are talking about the Power Mac updates before WWDC last year, then yeah, you are right. No one could believe that the 3 GHz promise was lost in the dust. No one could believe that IBM had so big manufacturing problems with the 970FX. It seems that history likes to repeat itself.
post #17 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
The problem I see is marketing, the impressions war. I think Apple is in vital need to show that they are able to innovate and lead the industry. Their place in this market is of low tolerance in such "mistakes".

And I am wondering: where is IBM's expertise in dual core designs? What happened in the meantime? It is sad, to say the least, to have on your side the only big chip designer and producer, with long experience in dual core designs, manufacture for you a processor (G5) coming already from a dual core server chip (Power4), and nevertheless join (too?) late the dual core party. If the TS rumor is proved to be true, we have to recognise that this would be a harsh slap in the face for Apple and, mostly, IBM.

I agree to an extent. But it's not all that desperate. Apple has survived much worse. As for adopting things like PCIe, etc. Apple has to be very careful not to fracture their market too much. Given how few PMacs they sell in general, they can't be too bleeding edge because few manufacturers will earn anything from making a product for a fraction (new PMacs) of a fraction (the PMacs) of a fraction (the Mac market as a whole) of the market. Frustrating perhaps, but that's the niche we're in.

Apple's CPU growth opportunity right now is with the the iMac and the mini, and lifestyle accessories like iPod, Airport Express, Bluetooth phones, movie making, music making, digital music dloads, Blu-ray/HDDVD, and (perhaps) the long awaited (and prematurely hyped) golden convergence. And that's where I think we'll see real "innovation." (I'm particularly excited about the mini becoming an entertainment media server--a kicka$$ BT remote, plus Blu-ray/HDDVD player/burner, plus HD encoding, plus a nice HDTV, plus a surround sound system would rock.)

As for IBM's expertise in dual-core design and production. Yeah, it's a bit sad. But the G5 has increased leaps beyond the P4 in the same timeframe. If we have to wait a few months for volume shipment of something that the PC world will only see trickle amounts of in the meantime, then...whatever. It's not really the end of the world for Apple. If we survived Moto, then we can survive pretty much anything. IBM has their own problems and Apple is a small--but important--concern for them. If the migration to 90nm and dual core hit a small (but larger than expected) speed bump, then at least we can say with pride that we will have the smoothest 32- to 64-bit transition imaginable (while the PC world is still wondering where it's going), not to mention the fact that our OS of choice is now something like 2 generations ahead of Windows.

Does it suck that Doom3 is barely playable on a $3000 Apple rig, while it's smooth as silk on a $1500 Wintel box? For some, maybe. In terms of bragging right, definitely. (But we've all known that gaming has been less-than-ideal on the Mac for going on 7 years.)

I'm at the point where I've faced up to the fact that the Mac market simply cannot compete with the vast amounts of capital that Intel has to throw at any given problem. And even when it falls flat on its face, as with the Itanic disaster, it has enough clout and money to just shrug it off, when a similar move would spell certain doom for a smaller company. The only way this will change is with increased market share. At this point, Apple's intelligence, foresight, and flexibility have allowed it to keep pace. If it doubles or triples its market share, and is able to throw more money at problems (and convince others like IBM to take greater risks for that market), then who knows what can happen.

Until then, I'm getting tons done on my four-year-old Quicksilver, and impressing the crap out of my coworkers and family with homemade DVDs, slideshows, GB songs, etc. When they come over to see me work, every single one does a double-take when I hit Expose. (I sometimes just do it on purpose to see their reactions.) And several members of my wife's family are possible converts on the strength of iChat AV/iSight and iMovie/iDVD. They could really give a rat's a$$ about dual-core chips, PCIe, and the like. Their biggest excitement in terms of computers is when AOL releases new emoticons, and their biggest computer headache is--bar none--viruses. (The main obstacle is that my step-father-in-law's favorite golf game isn't on the Mac... )

By the time the fall semester starts, this crisis too shall have passed. And hopefully, a bunch of iPod-using Wintel converts will wonder what the heck we were worried about.
post #18 of 241
This just gets MORE depressing by the minute

http://www.amd.com/us-en/0,,3715_11787,00.html

This kinda stuff tells us why IBM is dragging it's feet.

The e326's dual-core technology design puts IBM in the lead to help customers transition to future dual-core solutions. "Designing for the dual-core specification, IBM has invested to enable our customers to be more confident with their hardware investments," said Alex Yost, director of product marketing, IBM eServer. "For organizations with high-performance computing demands that want investment protection and a migration path from 32-to-64-bit applications, the eServer 326 provides an optimum platform for clustering at an affordable price."

AMD Dual Core Overview



The AMD Opteron processor was designed from the start to add a second core
Port already existed on crossbar/SRI
One die with 2 CPU cores, each core has its own 1MB L2 cache


Drops into existing AMD Opteron 940-pin sockets that are compatible with 90nm single core processors


A BIOS update was all that was necessary to get the 4-socket server up and running with dual-core AMD Opteron processors
The 2 CPU cores share the same memory and HyperTransport technology resources found in single core AMD Opteron processors
Integrated memory controller and HyperTransport links route out the same as todays implementation
post #19 of 241
I'm not that concerned, personally. 2.7ghz is not that far off from AMD's top spec'ed K8, which currently only maxes as 2.6ghz (though 3.0ghz seems possible by 2006). Provided IBM's cpu has an IPC similar to the K8 and not the P4, then there's not much difference between the 2. If you hadn't noticed lately, clockspeed has not been going up. In fact, it's going DOWN with dual core CPUs. If IBM indeed has a dual core 2.7ghz CPU, then that is impressive, since its partner AMD isn't launching a 2.6ghz 2C K8 anytime soon. The reason Apple hasn't updated the Powermac line isn't laziness, it's because they haven't had the opportunity. Short of partnering with AMD for cpus, Apple is stuck right now. With x86 cpus soon supporting virtualization, this could actually be a real possibility.
post #20 of 241
This is really dissapointing. I'm in the market for a new mac and my mac is five years old, though any G5 would be a huge improvement, I'd really thought we'd see multi-cores. I dont know if I'll get one.

Perhaps I should get a mini...
post #21 of 241
No dual core processors - check

No PCI-E slots - check

No Blu-ray optical drive - check


What exactly is "new" about these lame excuses of machines.

Man, Apple can't buy any luck with CPU makers. First Moto, now IBM is giving it to them up the old butt.


I think IBM has to much focus on making chips for Sony, MS, and Nintendo and Apple is getting sloppy fourths.
post #22 of 241
Well, if the worst case scenario is indeed true, it'll be a problem for all of Apple's product families, not just the G5.

Apple can't up the spec of their consumer machines because that would make the specs of the 'Pro' machines appear even more ridiculous...
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post #23 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
They couldn't if they wanted to. It'd be a PR nightmare.


Suddenly all the Powermacs with Superdrive "B" would gain DL support whilst those with Superdrive "C" would not because the drives were sourced from two different manufacturers. Apple doesn't do it out of spite if they must limit the functioning of a device.

Not true, they just flash the drives in the Rev. C machines with a new firmware and tell the Finder to enable 16X & DL for any drive sporting said firmware. The Finder would continue to ignore all the other 16X capable drives that have been fitted so far.

To the end user, suddenly the Rev. C G5s offer 16X where the Rev. Bs only offered 8X. Nobody would be any the wiser...
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post #24 of 241
ThinkSecret doesn't have news, they have rumors. I'm referring to the thread subject title. The sooner one gets that nuance understood, the better.

The new Power Mac revision is going to be a reputation-breaker for ThinkSecret. de Plume likely gets pseudo-anonymous rumor emails, for awhile now. If he actually knows - the name and position - of who is leaking reliable Mac hardware specs (he doesn't get iPod or software specs correct) to him, said person is stupid.

In the meanwhile, I'm sure Apple has been slowly tightening the circle of people who knows what the real specs of upcoming hardware is. I wouldn't want to be that leaker right now.
post #25 of 241
The worst part in all of this is when you call the Apple store
and they act like everything is perfectly fine.

At this point the best thing we can do is call or write Apple
to voice our opinions clearly!

The existing PowerMac simply aren't worth their asking price
and there's no f**king way I'm spending $3000 that took me 3 years to save on an inferior product.

The only thing keeping me loyal to Apple right now is the OS
NOT the hardware.

Sorry needed to vent!
post #26 of 241
FFTT,

It's not inferior. It's outdated.
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post #27 of 241
When I read how IBM is partnering and co-developing with AMD and Intel on their servers and workstations, it doesn't take much to see why
Apple is reduced to waiting for table droppings.
post #28 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
When I read how IBM is partnering and co-developing with AMD and Intel on their servers and workstations, it doesn't take much to see why
Apple is reduced to waiting for table droppings.

IBM use their own chips too.
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post #29 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
No dual core processors - check

No PCI-E slots - check

No Blu-ray optical drive - check


What exactly is "new" about these lame excuses of machines.

Man, Apple can't buy any luck with CPU makers. First Moto, now IBM is giving it to them up the old butt.


I think IBM has to much focus on making chips for Sony, MS, and Nintendo and Apple is getting sloppy fourths.

Why does Apple need to be first with everything? No matter what Apple does there will always be one little PC maker that will make something "better" to serve a niche.

Does the world collapse just because Intel and AMD releases dual core chips before IBM?
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post #30 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
The worst part in all of this is when you call the Apple store
and they act like everything is perfectly fine.

Believe it or don't, but those people don't know any more than we do. Probably less. Most companies (especially ones concerned with secrecy) keep information tightly compartmentalized. The retail arm isn't going to have any information about R&D or product development. Please don't give them a hard time.

Heck, I know some folks at Apple, and folks in SW R&D haven't a clue about HW R&D and vice versa.

Quote:
At this point the best thing we can do is call or write Apple
to voice our opinions clearly!

Yes, to Apple HQ directly. Anything else is just wasting your time and annoying the nice folks.
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post #31 of 241
The one positive of all this is that my 18 month old G5 2 GHZ dualie still ranks #2 on the Powermac depth chart.
post #32 of 241
http://theinquirer.org/?article=22646

Maybe this why Apple isn't getting dual core. You will have to pay for innovation. IBm produces this for AMD, so pricing of 970MP will be a bit less, but not enough to put in Powermacs right away, perhaps in xServes.

You don't want to pay over 4000 for such a machine and if you do,that is because you really need it.
(Fallenfromthetree you will have to save money another year).
post #33 of 241
Holy crap! I didnt realize the multicores would be that much!
post #34 of 241
It's hard for me to believe that Apple is going to upgrade the Powermac now and have another upgrade to dual core by September like few people are suggesting. That's not how Apple has been operating in the last few years.
I see a lot of pessimism around because people truly believe in anything TS says.
My feeling is that TS is so mad at Apple they are generating these false rumors to give bad PR to Apple. In the other hand Steve Jobs is mad at TS because what they did at MWSF, so they are all over TS to find any possible leak.
Historically WWDC has been the place for Powermac announcements lately. So. Let's hope so. I guess only time will tell.
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post #35 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
The worst part in all of this is when you call the Apple store
and they act like everything is perfectly fine.

At this point the best thing we can do is call or write Apple
to voice our opinions clearly!

The existing PowerMac simply aren't worth their asking price
and there's no f**king way I'm spending $3000 that took me 3 years to save on an inferior product.

The only thing keeping me loyal to Apple right now is the OS
NOT the hardware.

Sorry needed to vent!

....buy a Mac mini then....you get all that cool software, OS X Tiger....oh and a nice computer.
post #36 of 241
Quote:
To the end user, suddenly the Rev. C G5s offer 16X where the Rev. Bs only offered 8X. Nobody would be any the wiser..

No Messiah that doesn't work. Apple has to provide the "same" performance across the board. What you're asking for is a class action lawsuit man. Apple simply cannot upgrade the drives unless %100 of the drives can be upgraded. There's no way around this Messiah. Companies get sued for a lot less. Crippling is a fact of life sometimes when you need to source from multiple vendors.

Hey fellas we gotta look at bright side. It's a new day when we're sitting around complaining about no DL drives or giveing a big "meh" to 2.7Ghz G5 chips. I guess I'm just taken aback because hell right now I'd love "any" G5 based system.

I do think that the TS specs could be wrong. I simply cannot see why Apple wouldn't be moving to PCI Express. I know I've downplayed it before but I am starting to hear that the video guys will be migrating probably this year. Blackmagic and AJA both stated they need PCI Express and its fast writebacks to do some realtime stuff. Thus I must give a nod to Onlooker and a thanks to JBL72 for the info on muthaboards and Blackmagic stuffs.

I look at this like "If we get the TS specs then Apple must be designing on hell of a nextgen board" I know that sounds like I'm drinking the kool aid but when the G5 came out I was more than impressed with Apple. I know they can do it again.
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post #37 of 241
Why is it people only get on my case when I say the powerMac is loaded with outdated crap, and needs to get on with the program?
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post #38 of 241
Let's not all get our panties in a bunch quite yet. Remember that Think Secret also reported, just before the flat-panel iMac G5 release, that the new iMac would be powered by a G4. Yes, TS was TOTALLY FUCKING WRONG on the iMac G5! MOSR was more accurate than TS on that one.

While it is true that TS is slightly more reliable than the other rumor sites, the mythical status they seem to have garnered here at AI is unwarranted. Yes they could be right on the new Powermacs, but it could also be that someone is pulling TS's chain. Put those razor blades away and coil up the rope until the Powermacs are actually announced, at which point I'll be the first one swingin' from the rafters if Apple does an 8% speed bump on their flagship model (like bumping the 1.0 GHz Powermacs to 1.08 GHz).
post #39 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Let's not all get our panties in a bunch quite yet. Remember that Think Secret also reported, just before the flat-panel iMac G5 release, that the new iMac would be powered by a G4. Yes, TS was TOTALLY FUCKING WRONG on the iMac G5! MOSR was more accurate than TS on that one.

What are you talking about ?
post #40 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by MajorMatt
Holy crap! I didnt realize the multicores would be that much!

Keep in mind that the Operton and Pentium 4 are far larger than the 970, and die area is the leading factor in pricing. Even bumping the 970's cache to 1 MB will keep it much smaller than the single core version of Intel's core, nevermind the dual core version. The is part of the reason that those chips are faster in most benchmarks -- they throw more transistors at the problem. At 66 million transistors the 970FX is a comparative lightweight, and even a dual core version with more cache ought to be reasonably priced ... especially in light of recent reports that IBM has gotten the yield problems well under control.

As for IBM's dual core expertise, please keep in mind that it is on chips for big servers with expensive cooling systems, high prices component, and relatively low clock rates! The issues with these machines are going to be keeping them cool and cheap at reasonable noise levels, and much of that will fall to Apple.
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