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Even more disapointing TS news - Page 2

post #41 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by DCQ
As for adopting things like PCIe, etc. Apple has to be very careful not to fracture their market too much. Given how few PMacs they sell in general, they can't be too bleeding edge because few manufacturers will earn anything from making a product for a fraction (new PMacs) of a fraction (the PMacs) of a fraction (the Mac market as a whole) of the market. Frustrating perhaps, but that's the niche we're in.

To the best of my knowledge there are three video card manufacturers who make Apple compatible products: ATI, NVidia, and Matrox.

All 3 of those vendors have now migrated their top end products to PCI Express, and they are quickly adapting their entire lines to PCIe. Sure they still make AGP cards. However, if PCIe were this far off tech, then they wouldn't be introducing it at this pace.

And as hmurchison pointed out, other vendors are moving to PCI also.

If Apple doesn't get into the game soon, they're going to be left behind.
post #42 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
...at which point I'll be the first one swingin' from the rafters if Apple does an 8% speed bump on their flagship model

No, Junkyard, no!! You're needed around here.
post #43 of 241
Idea: perhaps apple plans to introduce a workstation class mac with dual dual core CPUs and keep the powermacs dual single core but lower their price.

We are always bitching about how the powermacs are too expensive and yet at the same time bitching about how they are not advanced enough. Perhaps apple said fuck it we're going to have two powermac levels. The workstation class and the regular powermac class. This way they can lower the price of the powermacs so that more people can afford them. And on the other end they can have the workstation macs with top of the line everything. Workstations would start at 3,000 while regular powermacs would top out at 2,500 or so. Honestly I think the above would be a good play on apple's part.

Honestly I just think it is too expensive right now to be putting dual core CPUs in dual towers.
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post #44 of 241
Well if anything if this turns out to be true then I can get a cheaper Dual 2Ghz and a bigger Monitor maybe even the 30''. I'm graduating soon and desperately need a new Mac. If this doesn't happen then I can wait till WWDC but not any later. I will be using some high-end apps like Maya Unlimited and need all the power I can get.
post #45 of 241
Since i'm always an internal realist and external optimist...

I'm loving the stalled hardware specs.

My dual 450 (now a dual 1.4) should last another few years at the least. It's five years old now yet feels responsive when running tiger and is more than sufficient for all of my needs. Basically, i've no upgrade-ightous at the moment.

I suspect the same thing is happening to an increasing percentage of consumers. Computers are now "good enough" for quite a few common tasks. While I'm a full fledged techo-weenie, I also realize that most people aren't on a processing power quest anymore. If anything, they're more concerned about software; things like security and ease of use.

I believe we're seeing the beginning of a trend, a trend in which hardware iterations are slowed to better match people's needs. Business and home users are starting to focus on security and longevity more now. A valid question is: "Will this system last me five years, ten years, or fifteen years?"

A slower upgrade cycle has always been popular in the realm of servers. Is it possible we'll see more and more occupations start to prefer the slower pace? Secretarially duties, data entry, inventory management, manufacturing, sales reporting, and financial systems are already moving in that direction.

The interesting thing is that Apples pro users dont commonly think that the hardware is good enough. Video,audio, and 3d work all could benefit from more power. However, most consumer do fall into this category.

One thing is for certain though, upgrade cycle length wont remain constant over the long term...
post #46 of 241
Well you can get one of these drives for $70 online....


Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
Cheer up!

Perhaps these machines will be 'the first' to ship with 16X SuperDrives and DL support - (i.e. Apple might choose to de-cripple the drives that they have been installing for however many months...).
post #47 of 241
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
ThinkSecret doesn't have news, they have rumors. I'm referring to the thread subject title. The sooner one gets that nuance understood, the better.

The new Power Mac revision is going to be a reputation-breaker for ThinkSecret. de Plume likely gets pseudo-anonymous rumor emails, for awhile now. If he actually knows - the name and position - of who is leaking reliable Mac hardware specs (he doesn't get iPod or software specs correct) to him, said person is stupid.

In the meanwhile, I'm sure Apple has been slowly tightening the circle of people who knows what the real specs of upcoming hardware is. I wouldn't want to be that leaker right now.

I pray that you are right, but with how the G5 has been going I really dont know. What makes you say so confidently that TS will be wrong on this revision?
post #48 of 241
Perhaps Apple knows info will leak so they allow it to leak... but only for the single core versions.
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post #49 of 241
i think someone has been spending too much time/money developing cheap mini and ipods

btw... i heard dual core was going to be no more expensive then normal processors.. oh well maybe that was wrong
post #50 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
i think someone has been spending too much time/money developing cheap mini and ipods

btw... i heard dual core was going to be no more expensive then normal processors.. oh well maybe that was wrong

DC chips are more money. They take up more wafer space because now you have to have a contiguous block of functional transistors. This increases your odds of having bad areas that scrap the whole chip. Intel is aggresively pricing their DC chips barely above the single core chips to generate support for multithreaded apps. DC chips might not hit their stride until 65nm where the sizes will return back to easier to fab sizes.
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post #51 of 241
The TS rumour specs seem highly likely.
I reckon they have a dualcore/pci-e G5 in testing but reliability,price etc are currently issues so they are going to speed bump them yet again.
They should drop the price by $500 at least on the top the range and wait until the new ones come out in Oct/Nov for the Xmas rush and then deliver in Jan as we are now used to.

It is becomming a real farce with their CPU's. Even Sun has ported Solaris for x86 and it runs very reliably on Operton machines. There is no reason why Apple couldn't do this as well.

The updated G5 will appear without song and dance on their website around when Tiger comes out.

Dobby.
post #52 of 241
So after showing us all of the great Pro Video and Audio applications on Sunday whose realtime capabilities are limited only by your CPU and graphics card performance, Apple's going to deliver a 200Mhz speedbump to their Powermacs. Nice one, Apple. While your software division is making products who fuel the need for faster hardware, your hardware division has been making...nothing, apparently. Seriously, 200Mhz? You could get that out of overclocking. One year and they've got nothing to show for themselves. And I can't do realtime graphic design and animation on an iPod Shuffle, so that doesn't count.

I hope Apple doesn't have the balls to sell that Dual 2.7Ghz for more than $2,700. Make the price right and don't castrate the "low-end" Powermac and this update will suffice for a couple months.
post #53 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Cory Bauer
So after showing us all of the great Pro Video and Audio applications on Sunday whose realtime capabilities are limited only by your CPU and graphics card performance, Apple's going to deliver a 200Mhz speedbump to their Powermacs. Nice one, Apple. While your software division is making products who fuel the need for faster hardware, your hardware division has been making...nothing, apparently.

That was freekn' halarious dude!!

You have hit the heart of the situation. Their software division is screaming while the hardware division is in the sand box playing with legos...Maybe we can expect a new power pod from the hardware side.

It will be an interesting annoucement from Apple, either way the apple peels. I will be right back here in this thread the day the annoucement is made.
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post #54 of 241
Well, it's the old Apple conundrum: being a small market force, picking up the GPU morsels, taking a contrarian position on chip producers, and so on. Uniqueness breeds its own limitations ... and strengths.

The truly dire times for Apple were the Motorola-in-freefall years. Steve landed on the IBM helicopter pad just in time to keep Apple users from hurling themselves off into the bitter sea. Can you imagine what things would be like today if the fastest PowerMac were a dual 1.67 G4, with its slim little bus? Imagine the contortions that some of us still would be going through to try to justify sticking with Apple through THAT kind of frightful vision.

Some of you contend that we are in precarious shape vis-a-vis the PC world, but we do have 64 bit CPUs, big busses, large RAM capabilities, dual core in the offing, a kind of uneasy parity. Given the nature of the relatively tiny Apple beast, there is always reason to be concerned and wary, but I think the Cupertino team will pull through just fine for the next few years at least.
post #55 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub
That was freekn' halarious dude!!

You have hit the heart of the situation. Their software division is screaming while the hardware division is in the sand box playing with legos...Maybe we can expect a new power pod from the hardware side.

It will be an interesting annoucement from Apple, either way the apple peels. I will be right back here in this thread the day the annoucement is made.


Yeah, this is EXACTLY why so many people are confused bythe news from Thinksecret. All the new Pro apps announced at NAB are just screaming out Dual-core and PCI-E goodness, yet Apple are going to release hardware that doesnt enable the power of the new features? It just doesn't add up. And I find it VERY difficult to believe that IBM cannot improve their 90nm process at all, in a whole year?!?! it beggars belief.
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post #56 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Perhaps Apple knows info will leak so they allow it to leak... but only for the single core versions.

I tend to be pretty skeptical, but I have to admit that I'm hoping this might be true.

I'm fantasizing about a higher model priced at maybe $3500, aimed squarely at Pros. PowerMac HD: 2.5 dual dual-cores. PCI-E. Blu-Ray. Stuff like that. I imagine blowing through uncompressed HD Motion 2 projects like butter, smooooth as silk...

Well, a man can dream OK?
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post #57 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Cory Bauer
Nice one, Apple. While your software division is making products who fuel the need for faster hardware, your hardware division has been making...nothing, apparently.

This quote reminded me of the story - oh about 3 months ago - of the Apple division chief who suddenly left. Wasn't he in hardware? Anybody know the whys and wherefores of the story?

And on another tack... Morpheus seems to think 2.8 duals are achievable. (Of course mobo problems are out of his purview. Just because 2.8 duals are fabbed with acceptable heat characteristics in the plant doesn't ensure a successful implementation in a desktop.)
post #58 of 241
I kept falling back during weak moments thinking I might
be happy getting by with a 12" PB, but as nice as they are,
I simply can't justify that much money right now for a single G4 processor.

Then looking at these figures, I don't dare spend one cent
until I see how the next PowerMac revisions are priced.


PRICING FOR DUAL-CORE Opterons has wibbled onto the web, suggesting that AMD will charge as much for a low-end dual-core offering as it charges for a single-core high-end part.

The Taiwanese Digitimes, here, says local motherboard makers spilled the beans on the AMD's pricing plans. It says the dual-core Opteron 865 processor will cost $1,514, which happens to be the price of a single-core Opteron 852. The 870 will cost $2,149 and the 875 $2,649, the site says it was told. We guess these are volume prices.

I wonder how these prices would compare to the 970MP or a de-tuned Power5 dual core, since the Power5 is a long established processor?
post #59 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Thereubster
And I find it VERY difficult to believe that IBM cannot improve their 90nm process at all, in a whole year?!?! it beggars belief.

They have improved it -- dramatically. They went from something approximating 0% yield to something remarkably high (can't remember the exact number announced recently, but it was silly... 90%?). That's quite an improvement.
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post #60 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
I wonder how these prices would compare to the 970MP or a de-tuned Power5 dual core, since the Power5 is a long established processor?

Power5 pricing is probably way out of line with desktop microprocessors, and you wouldn't want a "de-tuned" one as they already run at fairly weak clock rates and don't have VMX units.

The 970MP pricing will probably be quite good, based on the small size of the 970 core and IBM's recent success with their yields.
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post #61 of 241
With dual core Intels introduced and AMDs soon to follow the upgrade of the G5 look even more lackluster
post #62 of 241
970MP will cost far less then those OPterons, because Opterons are server processor. It's like intel Itaniums and regular P4, the difference is huge in price. itanium: http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20020614S0022 while dual core P4 are just 250$ see tomshardware.
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post #63 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by jsnuff1
I pray that you are right, but with how the G5 has been going I really dont know. What makes you say so confidently that TS will be wrong on this revision?

I'm not saying that they are wrong. I'm saying that you believe a rumor at your peril. A rumors site will only have a reliable source for so long (because Apple likely tries to squash leakers as much as possible), and I think TS's reliable sources will dry up this year, if they haven't dried up since the lawsuit.

If Apple finds out who the leakers to TS are, they are in for some serious legal problems incuding some serious monetary damages let alone unemployment. We here think it is fun, but there are serious consequences for people who have breached their contracts. If it becomes widely known to other companies that they have breached contracts, they may not even get a job in the business anymore. The leakers to TS are in peril, and I would not want to be them right now because Apple legal is in hunting for them.
post #64 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Cory Bauer
Nice one, Apple. While your software division is making products who fuel the need for faster hardware, your hardware division has been making...nothing, apparently. Seriously, 200Mhz?

Apple's hardware division doesn't make CPUs.
JLL

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post #65 of 241
The only benefit to this torturous waiting game is that now
Apple knows what they're up against in both features and pricing.

This gives Apple to opportunity to counter attack with something
unbeatable in both catagories.

If the current PowerMacs are backing up on the shelves, then Apple
may bump the specs now to clear their inventories or simply drop the prices and farm out the rest to resellers.

A clearance sale price drop alone over the next 6 weeks would make
some people quite content and clear the way for a MAJOR revision
announcement at WWDC.

The major haunting issue for me is not knowing if they will
move to PCI-E.

I'd also really like to know if the NEW dual core processors will be pin compatible with at least the existing 90nm chassis.

These two items are crucial to my buying decision.
post #66 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
I'd also really like to know if the NEW dual core processors will be pin compatible with at least the existing 90nm chassis.

Why? You can't go out and by a PowerPC CPU like you can with AMDs and Intels.
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post #67 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
... It says the dual-core Opteron 865 processor will cost $1,514, which happens to be the price of a single-core Opteron 852. The 870 will cost $2,149 and the 875 $2,649, the site says it was told. We ...

I saw those too, and was aghast. Yields must be terrible.

If the 970MP costs are comparable, maybe Apple will just add a dual-dual to the top of the line, at a price of around $5000. Been a long time since we've seen a Mac in that stratospheric range...
post #68 of 241
I suspect most of us who anticipated a 970MP in the next Power Mac update are disappointed. It would have been nice for Macs to be first with dual cores. Yet, there may be a bright side. Apple may have changed their plans somewhere along the way, and we may ultimately be happier with the result. At least that is what I'm hoping.

I remember reading somewhere that a dual core AMD will dissipated 130W at 2.2 GHz. I began to speculate that water cooled Power Macs may have been designed to handle a lot more heat than they presently do. The idea would be to have Power Macs ready to take a high wattage dual core CPU. What makes this seem plausible is that the Xserve got dual 2.3 GHz 970FX chips about the same time, and these are air cooled despite their smaller volume and more densely packed parts.

Somewhere along the way, Apple may have had second thoughts about this plan to use water cooling. Also the the news coming from IBM may have provided hope for a breakthrough in power dissipation. So, we may have to wait a while longer, but the end result may be a better design, both in the chips and hardware.
post #69 of 241
From MacUser July 2004:


News
[Processors]
Tuesday 27th July 2004
IBM readies dual core G5 for faster speeds 11:11AM
IBM is reported to be preparing a dual core version of the PowerPC 970 processor, more commonly known as the G5.
eWeek reports that the 970MP will comprise two processing units per chip, each with its own Level 1 cache and storage subsystems including a Level 2 cache. The total amount of cache will be four times greater than is currently available in the dual processor Power Macs.

eWeek says that according to its sources at IBM the dual core 'is intended to expand the PowerPC's top frequency capabilities'. Currently the chip has a top speed of 2.5GHz, still some way behind the fastest Intel Pentiums (the Pentium 4 EE, for example, clocks 3.4GHz).

Longer pipelining will also allow for higher speeds, though the benefits of shorter pipelining will be retained by implementing 'instruction cracking' to split certain commands into simpler operations and distribute then between the cores.
post #70 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
What are you talking about ?


Oh, um......... I swear it was TS that got the iMac totally wrong. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.

Well, nevermind, I guess. Thanks for correcting that nasty error.
post #71 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by lucida
... IBM is reported to be preparing a dual core version of the PowerPC 970 processor, more commonly known as the G5.
eWeek reports that the 970MP will comprise two processing units per chip, each with its own Level 1 cache and storage subsystems including a Level 2 cache. The total amount of cache will be four times greater than is currently available in the dual processor Power Macs. ...

We first heard about the 970 in early 2002. By January 2003 we had photos of it (with feathers, remember?). All through the beginning of 2003 we expected machines. They finally appeared in June 2003... and many people didn't get theirs until late August. Based on history, then, we shouldn't really expect to see any 970MP machines this calendar year. Have patience.
post #72 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
I remember reading somewhere that a dual core AMD will dissipated 130W at 2.2 GHz.


www.theinquirer.net reports that the dual core 2.2 ghz opteron puts out 190 watts ( 95 watts per core ). That is just amazing. It is supposed to be a frop in replacement for existing systems, but Id be amazed if there were any consumer motherboards that could handle that power load, let alone the 360 watts required for a dual cpu system ( and these opterons are for 8 way systems ).

Id like to think that Apple knew all of this was coming, and that the water cooling is in preparation for this masive load. But the reality is if Apple could build a machine for less ( by, say, not using water cooling ) and still meet their engineering requirements ( noise levels ) they would.
post #73 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by cubist
We first heard about the 970 in early 2002. By January 2003 we had photos of it (with feathers, remember?). All through the beginning of 2003 we expected machines. They finally appeared in June 2003... and many people didn't get theirs until late August. Based on history, then, we shouldn't really expect to see any 970MP machines this calendar year. Have patience.

But in Jan 2003 it was announced as entering production and had been taped-out since late September. You add 60 days to that before you get chips. Then IBM's 90nm yeilds were south of 8%. That's a lot of production runs before you have enough chips to ship machines.

Today IBM says 90nm yeild is better than 90%, which is nothing short of astoundingly good. Sources leaked the 970MP/GX was taped out last July (prior to July 21). If you use the same math as the original 970 rollout, knowing IBM has made huge process improvements (making it a conservative timeline) you get a potential conservative June ship date. It would not be wild to expect the possibility of less time to full production, but 970MPs will come off the line at roughly half the rate for the same yeild numbers so it would take a little longer to stockpile.

Unless something is glactically and catastrophically wrong in IBM land over the last month or two, the 970MP (2.8Ghz, same source--Morpheus) should be available now in the necessary shippable quantities should Apple want to use them.
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post #74 of 241
I reckon if Apple had a dualcore chip to ship then Apple would make a big hullaballo about it and too right!
This same if they started making a Pro version of the powermac with these.

If Apple don't release the machines at an event then we will see a very meager speed bump.

Dobby.
post #75 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy

I remember reading somewhere that a dual core AMD will dissipated 130W at 2.2 GHz. I began to speculate that water cooled Power Macs may have been designed to handle a lot more heat than they presently do. The idea would be to have Power Macs ready to take a high wattage dual core CPU. What makes this seem plausible is that the Xserve got dual 2.3 GHz 970FX chips about the same time, and these are air cooled despite their smaller volume and more densely packed parts.

Somewhere along the way, Apple may have had second thoughts about this plan to use water cooling. Also the the news coming from IBM may have provided hope for a breakthrough in power dissipation. So, we may have to wait a while longer, but the end result may be a better design, both in the chips and hardware.

I don't think so. In a server environment you expect air conditioning and therefore stable/cool temperatures. Consumer machines run in a completely different environment. In most countries of the world air conditioning in private homes is extremely rare. Therefore you have to take into account that many consumer machines run at temperatures up to 90°-100°F which requires much stronger cooling systems.
post #76 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Gulliver
I don't think so. In a server environment you expect air conditioning and therefore stable/cool temperatures. Consumer machines run in a completely different environment. In most countries of the world air conditioning in private homes is extremely rare. Therefore you have to take into account that many consumer machines run at temperatures up to 90°-100°F which requires much stronger cooling systems.


Operating Temperature, from Apple's Technical Specifications

Xserve: 50 to 95 degrees F
Power Mac: 50 to 95 degrees F
post #77 of 241
[sarcasm]Hey folks, stay positive, everything you want will be in the next update[/sarcasm]

I hate to sound like an ass but read my post entitled Apple's Future....A Sad Reality? to see where I am coming from.
post #78 of 241
Quote:
Originally posted by Jared
[sarcasm]Hey folks, stay positive, everything you want will be in the next update[/sarcasm]

I hate to sound like an ass but read my post entitled Apple's Future....A Sad Reality? to see where I am coming from.


Read it, hated it.
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post #79 of 241
Garnered from a closeted web site:

"Apple's Power Mac updates, though not all that rumor sites had anticipated, will nevertheless be accompanied by an approximate 10% rise in prices. When queried about the increase, an unidentified spokesman blamed it on ATI. 'They told us the 9600 was so old the line had been retooled. Retooling again (for 9600 production) will be costly.' "

Sources say customers for the new PM will have the choice of 'opting out' of a GPU to save money. Although this would eliminate the possibility of a monitor - and useful work - there is a segment that just "enjoys listening to the fans."



Do I need to id this as sarcasm? Surely not.
post #80 of 241
CPU stuff aside, you think they could have at least made advancements in the GPU offerings and possibly increased the number o ram slots after a year.

But my iMac G5 1.8 runs circles around my PC 3 ghz work box for my use. So not being the first to Dual Core isn't that bad although everyone wants "their" brand computer to be that company that makes first.
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