Updated Apple Power Mac G5 systems en route to company stores - Page 4

This does not make the most sense for those of us here at AI dreaming of 4 ghz quad dual core machines arriving tomorrow.

Am intimately familiar with the consumer you speak of as I am onesuch. However, there's tools and then there's tools. A money-making shop can give a flip about Macs vs PC's and given the choice of a bin swap upgrade or a dual core with some muscle will choose the muscle - and value - every time.

I repeat, there is no value here.

I'm not sure you really know what you're on about when you talk about value. The Dual 2GHz will be at least $500 cheaper, both the middle and top configuration will be faster and across the board there are small improvements to the other accessories. Better superdrives, hard drives, graphics cards.

If you need a new Powermac I certainly wouldn't be complaining to have improved configurations and they certainly offer benefits over a lot of computers. If you bought the last round it doesn't offer much but then if you bought in the past year it is unlikely you would be upgrading those computers. I know very few companies that offer anything better than computer upgrades every 18 months to workers and most tend to operate on a 3 year cycle and these certainly are better than what was available back then.

People seem to always look at things in comparison to what was there last but the reality is nobody buys one generation then upgrades it unless they have money to waste or a desire to have the fastest for their own ego.

There is plenty to complain about in this update but they do offer value over what there was and they do offer value over what a lot of people currently use.

As an aside dual core was never going to happen this early in the year. You need to have enough production to supply a market.

Which would be fine if this were fine wine or something. It's not; it's tech and $500 cheaper for a two year old mobo with sucky GPU's and NO express is not value. It's a machine that the buyer will be forced to upgrade in a year to maintain any kind of parity. Penny wise and dollar foolish. Not interested.

I don't want to tell you that you're wrong, but I you're wrong. 20 months ago, less than 2 years, the Dual 2.0 sold for $2,999. If, as Amazon let slip, the Dual 2.0 ships tomorrow for $1,999 it will have seen two price reductions of $500 each time for a total of $1,000. That's a 33% price reduction in 20 months. Not too bad.

Edit: See this press release for original release date and pricing.

If you buy a workstation right now it is unlikely it will use PCI-e for anything outside the graphics card. PCI-X is still basically the standard in workstations. A few have 1 PCI-e slot but PCI or PCI-X still is the predominant feature.

The GPU options are dreadful, I will say that. There needs to be a better in between option. The question of AGP or PCI-e for the card is somewhat irrelevant though given the current market for GPUs on the mac after market. About the only people who do tend to upgrade those, even on the PC side, are more towards the enthusiast side of things, which is a small market by the way.

Have you ever actually bought for a business or gone shopping for workstations? The Powermacs compare quite well. You might criticise Apple for not catering to the enthusiast market, and certainly if you are an enthusiast or tinkerer there isn't much there but these machines are fine if you are in the marketplace for a new workstation and frankly I'd rather the dual 2.7 to a single dual core.

I think you overestimate how large a market actually goes for the biggest and the fastest. The new powermacs would easily see someone through 3 years, possibly more given the slow down in performance increases, at which time no doubt there will be something else on the market to upgrade to.

LMAO!
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Anyone know the shortest time between Powermac updates? Are there any other examples of Apple putting out stop-gap machines while they toil over the next insanely great thing?

LMAO!
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Anyone know the shortest time between Powermac updates? Are there any other examples of Apple putting out stop-gap machines while they toil over the next insanely great thing?

I was quoting Telomar. Who are you saying is wrong here?

Not that it matters. Old tech is still old and cheap old tech is only slightly better. But, in the words of the insipid Nexium commercial, "better is better".

Blackmagic's MultiBridge. PCIe only. Now shipping. A 4 pipe. (More pipes to follow, I'm sure )

Apple's machines aren't the easiest to upgrade. When you plunk down your 3-4 K you gotta dance with it for several years. A little future proofing is very helpful here.
And absent from these updates.

You are stating that a Dual 2.0 is two year old technology at only a $500 discount. This statement is incorrect. It is, 1) 20 month old technology, 4 months or a whole quarter short of two years, and 2) it's a $1,000 price reduction, not $500.

Edited for politeness.

I have to agree with Dave J here.

Apple has had 2 freakin' years to upgrade this hardware. This is exactly why Mac users get pissed and grumpy. A year ago we were told about how the G5 had "legs" and would be at 3Ghz. Ok so they didn't hit that target but missing the boat on PCI-Express is just flat out wrong.

I'm afraid the next Powermac refresh is going to have to be amazing. Just having 3Ghz isn't going to cut it, we need some tech that puts us back on track.

I like the Powermacs and the Xserve but the problem is that it's 2005 and not 2004. Apple is great at sprinting to a lead and then fading over the rest of the race.

Let's face it the Mac lineup is a jumbled mess. The iMac doesn't offer enough expansion at its price level and the Powermac doesn't offer enough expansion at its price level.

Theres a time coming where Apple will need to eschew the hole "cute" thing and just get down to basics. Sometimes I want a work of art...sometimes I want a workhorse. Apple can you be both?

Unless my math is wrong, I am from Indiana, if the Dual 2.7 GHz Power Mac is released tomorrow we will have seen a 35% increase in processor speed in 20 months. Is this so bad?

Yes, because your reckoning doesn't account for the competitions doubling of their number of CPU cores. Apple could have dropped the high end Powermac to 2.2 GHz and I think most people would have been happy if it were a 2.2 GHz twin dual core PPC 970mp Powermac.

Are they really selling quads, with two dual core chips? I went briefly to the Dell website and looked at the 380 workstation. An option does provides an Intel dual core processor, for $750 more than the standard single core Pentium 4. So this Dell has two cores, like the Power Macs have had for years. Are the Windows boxes just now catching up in cores? Or do they actually sell workstations with four cores? I know nothing about the competition.

OK, and what motherboards can it be plugged into? Most of the motherboards I see only have 1x slots in addition to the single (or dual, if it's an SLI machine) 16x slot.

Oh-- and congratulations on finding the first PCIe card, other than graphics cards, that I've seen. (Perhaps the second, I think I saw a PCIe SATA card at Newegg...)

The simple fact is, the vast majority of expansion cards are either PCI or PCI-X. There simply isn't much of an uproar (except for you guys) over this, because we're simply not missing out on much.

[...]


And yet, there is still a dearth of PCIe cards. It's really a non-issue at this point... I know it'd be nice to have for future expansion, but if you were Apple, who would you rather piss off: People who may expand their machines possibly sometime in the future, or people with a need that has to be fulfilled NOW. Go with PCIe, you satisfy the former, stay with PCI-X, you satisfy the latter. PCIe is cool, but other than for a handful of cards, it's a future standard. PCI-X is a solution that is here, now, today.

I would LOVE it if Apple switched to PCIe, but I can understand why they'd go one more revision without it. The industry support just isn't there yet to justify it.

[...]


JD, have you actually priced a dual core machine with an Intel or AMD chip? I have, and the pricing is pathetic. The Dell dual core Intel has a $1000 premium over a dual processor machine. That's ridiculous-- and what do you get for it? Bragging rights? The dual Xeon has TWICE the L2 cache of the dual core chip... I seriously doubt you'll get a performance increase that justifies the price difference. As for AMD, the dual core Opteron chip alone has a $600 premium... Unless you're going balls-to-the-wall with a top end Opteron system with dual dual core chips (which the chips alone will set you back $2800), dual core on the other side of the fence is a non-issue at this point. Both Intel & AMD are milking the early adopters for all they're worth...

Steve wouldn't have said 3 GHz if IBM hadn't told him ok.

Stop blaming Apple for IBM's problems.

Express is NOT a non-issue. I can guarantee that quite a few companies are working on Express cards. The PC industry will be almost all on Express by January. That's THEIR goal, not mine. If you think that the board companies are going to wait, then you should rethink your ideas.

I do agree about the cpu pricing.

Hmmm... It's FREAKIN' APRIL. Apple has EIGHT MONTHS before January to come out with a PCIe chipset. Just for the sake of argument, let's say they don't have something for an entire year. Will it be the end of the world for them? I highly doubt it-- they'll only be four months beyond your January line in the sand.

Besides, "PC industry will almost all on Express by January"? I highly doubt that. How long were ISA cards around after PCI came out? A hell of a lot longer than it's been since PCIe was introduced, that's for sure. Never underestimate the intertia of electrical engineers. Unless many of the card makers see their sales drop off to nothing, they're not going to budge from their current PCI/PCI-X solutions. Sure, PCIe WILL come-- but it's not the solution that's here now. Honestly, I don't think the industry is going to move anywhere near that fast.

IBM is Apple's CPU supplier, therefore IBM's problems, become Apple's problems.

Apple chose IBM as a partner, therefore they both share the same problem. IBM may be the only one responsible for the technical side of the problem, but Apple, and by that I mean Steve Jobs primarily, are the ones that are responsible for the marketing side of the problem: 3 Ghz was spoken with a true conviction by SJ, it was not a false marketing plot.

Because IBM failed to deliver, does not mean that Apple didn't believe that IBM would deliver.

In any case, 3 Ghz is a long gone, nowadays forgotten thing. If IBM can deliver dual-core, then it will be just a bad memory.

Nobody's saying PCIe should replace PCI/PCI-X yet. However, PCIe is already here in a big way as a replacement for AGP. Almost every single new video card is being produced in a PCIe version. The jump from PCI to AGP was quick and the jump from AGP to PCIe appears to be happening rather quickly also. Apple better get with the program.

Allow me to point out the obvious. Why do PowerMacs have removable video cards? So users can upgrade them in the future. So it doesn't exactly make sense to buy a brand spanking new $2-3000 computer which comes with a video card interface that is rapidly becoming obsolete. It's not becoming obsolete because it's necessarily inferior. It's becoming obsolete because the demand for PCIe graphics cards is growing rapidly and PCIe chipsets are cheaper than AGP chipsets anyway; so both mobo and graphics chipset manufacturers are moving to PCIe in a big way.

Let me put it another way. What will my graphics card choices be like in 2 years? The way things are shaping up, there will be a ton of PCIe options and very few AGP options.

Frankly I could care less about a processor speed bump. If they came out with a top of the line Dual 2.5 with PCIe, I would buy it.

That's the thing-- when Apple goes for PCIe, I expect them to go for it completely. I don't think they'll have machines with both PCIe & PCI-X slots. What they probably will do, is keep a machine around from the previous revision-- kind of like they did with the G4 Powermac after the G5 was introduced. After that, though, it'll likely be all PCIe slots on all Powermacs.


And yet, PCI video cards are still available.

I agree that PCIe is going to replace AGP (and already is, to a large extent). I just don't think that it's going to do it so fast that you won't be able to find AGP upgrade cards in a year or two (or even three, for that matter).


Sure it does. If you buy a Powermac today with a 9600 with the intent of upgrading the video in two years, I think it's a safe bet that there will still be at least x850 & 6800 AGP cards on the market two years from now. Hell-- there might even be x900 & 6900 (or whatever ATI & nVidia call their next generation high end chipsets) cards in AGP versions available, as well. C'mon man-- the upgrade options for AGP aren't that bleak...

The more I look at the new systems the MORE I don't think those ATI 9600's and 9650's are even Pro or XT!!!!!!

I looked all through the specs on the machines, through the BTO. Not one time was the XT or Pro acronyms used! The cards have obviously been changed, the 9650 can now run dual 30" lcds... hrm.

I have a feeling these are just plain 9600's. That means lower gpu and memory speeds. This would be a new low of apple, to replace elite parts with inferior parts.

Along with that, a modem doesn't come standard any more (so there is another $35 dollars off of the price tag). These machines are looking like they upped the price more than lowering it. The 6800ultra still sells for 500 BTO on the 2.3. I'm really shocked at all this and I hope someone can confirm that I'm wrong about the ATI cards.

On a side note, they did lower the LCD prices (like they should have a long long time ago).

Gamblor you are correct. I just recently read that ATI will be doing parallel development of both AGP and PCIe verisons of their upcoming cards. So AGP is safe for at least 2 years.

I seriously doubt that even a third of Powermac owners upgrade their graphics cards. No the new hardware isn't a tour de force but it works and is proven.

I am afraid you are right. Sorry.

Well its obvious that apple has an extreme low supply of AGP graphics cards. Looks like all they have now is 9600, 9650 and 6800ultra. To me that means that they don't want to put any mroe production because they plan on moving to a new interface soon.

This is unacceptable, at least give us a mediocre card like a 9800xt or EVEN A 9600XT!!! Jesus! I'd rather have the older machines with the other graphics cards options. These machines got worse! not better!

I would also like to point out that the dual 2.7 is still liquid cooled:

Liquid Cooling Sucks

That's cool: the 2 year expected lifespan of the cooler will mesh nicely with the unavailability of any AGP solution in 2 years.

ROFL!!

No kidding.

Still Liquid Cooled!!!???


Since we know Apple reads these fora, here's a little hint:

http://arstechnica.com/guide/cooling/peltier-1.html

Dave J: "2 year expected lifespan"
The OEM supplier warrantees the cooler for that long... which is completely different from "expected lifespan". Sorry bub, go troll somewhere else.

Has there even been a single destructive failure reported for the powermac liquid cooling system?

I have a question. Everyone seems to be wary of the liquid cooling system, but I have yet to read of a single problem with it. In fact, people seemed really happy with it (for noise reasons) before the otherwise unsubstantiated rumor was posted on TS. So what's the deal? Why is a part that has been completely trouble free now being lambasted? I guess time will tell as far as the rumor goes, but for now I think the concern is unwarranted.

As for AGP vs. PCIe. I don't think AGP will be dead in two years time. But I think your options will be more limited than they are today. That's all. While most people don't replace their GPUs, it's a concern for me. I tend to keep my Macs for several years.

Yikes / Sawtooth?

Mandricard
AppleOutsider

Oh yes, now I remember! The Yikes - Sawtooth, what was that, like 3-4 months? The last G3 update was very soon before the promising G4 announcement.

Apple isn't hyping these updates at all, so thankfully they don't see them as anything special, either. I bet within 6 months Apple has twin-dual core liquid nitrogen cooled beasts.

Right:

+35% processor speed (2GHz -> 2.7GHz)
+100% RAM (256MB->512MB)
+56% hard disk space (160GB->250GB)
+200%VRAM (64MB->256MB)
+53% graphic card speed (325MHz->500MHz)
+100% optical drive capacity (single layer->double layer)
+400% optical drive speed (4x->16x)

Not bad at all - not even bad as compared to my Dual 2.5GHz in the office! I just ordered my new Dual 2.7!

The last high end cards ATI will have for AGP are the 800 series. The last high end NVIDIA cards will be the 6800 series.

Those are pretty high end cards now. But two years from now they will classed as the 9800 is now, possibly even the 9600. Even a year from now these cards will be at least one generation behind.

The industry is switching over to Express rapidly. By January, most all PC's sold, except for the $500 or less models will be Express. Most PC's will remain PCI because thats what's out there. But all high end developement is shifting over to Express support.

Powermac sales are in the dumps. Remember the numbers they quoted were for the entire professional line, which includes the X-serves. So it's a matter of politics as well.

Professional users such as my company (I'm retired now, sold off my half) buy new machines as we need them. It can be every year. But we also keep machines. We like to know that a $4,500 (after memory, video card, etc. enhancements) investment has legs. At this time a PCI machine has no legs.

Actually yes there has been failures on the liquid cooler. At least on the dual 2.5s (obviously not on the 2.7s, maybe they are different).

Apple has discovered (and sent out memos on this to Techs), that the coolers life span is more like 2 years where Delphi said it was 2.5 years.

Compare a dual 2.0 Rev B to a dual 2.5 Rev B... the 2.0's fans do not spin up as much, being quieter.

You're oversimplifing. The entire industry is in the same hole as Apple and IBM. Intel promised that Prescott would scale to at least 5GHz. It didn't make 4. The same thing with AMD.

No one expected the problems with 90nm would be so severe.

I have my doubts about 65nm at this point. I'm hearing that the chip companies are talking rosy talk, but they still haven't fixed 90nm.

Yes, both AMD and Intel now are shipping dual cores. I'm concerned about the fact that we've heard nothing from IBM yet. And they have been producing dual core POWER chips for three years already.

So that bothers me, yes.

But not 3GHz. At least IBM is still raising speeds. Both AMD and Intel have both stopped months ago. Don't forget that their dual core chips are significantly slower per core than their single core chip.

I hope that the GX's will come out. Then we'll see. The MP's are also based on those.

What evidence do you have for this? What hmurchison wrote (and what you even quoted) directly contradicts that statement, at least for ATI. (Unless, ATI's next cards are going to be in the x800 series. x875?)