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Apple to deploy Mac OS X 10.4.1 for testing - Page 3

post #81 of 115
5/6/05 at 9:13pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Not in 10.4. kqueue can be used to inform a daemon when new files are created, saved, or accessed. No more kernel extensions needed.
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post #82 of 115
5/6/05 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally posted by gsxrboy
Here you go tiger

http://xserve.via.ecp.fr/~videolan/macosx/?M=D

thanks buddy.. now i just need to get Tiger

mattyj -- try the above link gsxrboy provided, it may give you better VLC performance on Tiger
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post #83 of 115
5/6/05 at 9:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Not in 10.4. kqueue can be used to inform a daemon when new files are created, saved, or accessed. No more kernel extensions needed.

kqueues must be attached to a specific vnode. kevent takes a file descriptor, which means you must open() the folder/file you want to "watch". Unless you are going to create a kqueue for every single file and folder on every attached volume, kqueues are not useful for AV vendors. Right now I would need 1.2 million kqueues according to the Finder's Get Info.

See for yourself. Use Apple's own FileNotification sample code. Modify it to watch for changes to "/" and then create a file in ~. You won't see a kqueue event.
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post #84 of 115
5/6/05 at 10:19pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
You're right. Now you've got me trying to find the discussion about what Spotlight uses to accomplish the same thing.

Bing, and go. From arstech:

Spotlight uses fsevents, the source code of which can be found in the Darwin 8 repository (ADC membership required):

http://www.opensource.apple.com/darw...vfs_fsevents.c

Pros: it works.
Cons: not a public API, but then neither were the methods used previously.
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post #85 of 115
5/6/05 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Pros: it works.
Cons: not a public API, but then neither were the methods used previously.

Sure, if you want to use a private API, go ahead. Commercial software vedors will avoid them at all costs. Apple does not want you to use them, and most assuredly it will break in the future, perhaps even in an inline to Tiger. Apple has provided altnerate (kernel based) interfaces for antivirus developers, which all of them are using for Tiger. Kernel based solutions have their problems, but so does using a private unpublished and mostly changing SPI.

And PS: The previously used methods were not public, but supported by Apple, because nothing else existed. The Spotlight APIs are undoubtedly not supported.
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post #86 of 115
5/6/05 at 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
You're right. Now you've got me trying to find the discussion about what Spotlight uses to accomplish the same thing.

Bing, and go. From arstech:

Spotlight uses fsevents, the source code of which can be found in the Darwin 8 repository (ADC membership required):

http://www.opensource.apple.com/darw...vfs_fsevents.c

Looking at this code, there are some glaring omissions that would make it undesirable for AV vendors. I won't go into all of them here but suffice it to say there are many of them. But most importantly, it is only a notification API, not a permission API. It is not possible to deny access to an infected file when a client attempts to open it or close it. Therefore the file could be sent across the wire in an email program without the AV program doing anything about it.
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post #87 of 115
5/6/05 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rmcgann220
ClamAV doesn't rely on kernel extensions because it doesn't perform on-access scanning on OS X. You must manually scan files as they are accessed, such as when they are download from the Internet. Norton AntiVirus scans files for viruses as soon as they are created, so when you copy them from a file server or download them. In order to perform on-access scanning, you must have a kernel extension, which is why all the antivirus programs on OS X have kernel extensions.

ClamAV also has many other deficiences, such as no support for scanning inside of StuffIt files and many other compressed archive formats.

People like to hate Symantec. It's too bad, otherwise they might still be producing all of their products for us, rather than discontinuing Systemworks.

I have all of the repair and recover utilities, and Norton's is no worse than Techtool, or others, but it gets bad press, and thus low sales.

Anti-Virus has always worked well.
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post #88 of 115
5/6/05 at 11:46pm
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
People like to hate Symantec. It's too bad, otherwise they might still be producing all of their products for us, rather than discontinuing Systemworks.

I have all of the repair and recover utilities, and Norton's is no worse than Techtool, or others, but it gets bad press, and thus low sales.

Anti-Virus has always worked well.

People dislike Norton in general, and Systemworks in particular, for good reason. Their product has caused as many problems as it has solved. They completely and utterly fail to support their product and have an attrocious attitude toward Mac customers.

Why do you think that there is so much advice to "step away from the Norton (Systemworks)" for the few people still being misled into using that product?

The reason that they have discontinued Systemworks is, presumably, that it is no longer commercially viable. It will not be missed...well, actually it will. Good riddance!

It ordinarily is not desirable to have vendors dropping Mac support. In this case, it is.

Their anti-virus software, when I last used it, was a buggy piece of junk as well. I know that their Windows anti-virus is better than the Mac product.
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post #89 of 115
5/6/05 at 11:55pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I have all of the repair and recover utilities, and Norton's is no worse than Techtool, or others, but it gets bad press, and thus low sales.

I have yet to see TechTool, DiskWarrior et al produce trashed disks from known good ones. I have seen it with Norton. Their reputation on the Mac is well deserved. Sad, really. They used to be a good Mac house, many years ago. Now? Meh. They never really made the transition to X successfully.
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post #90 of 115
5/7/05 at 12:17am
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign

btw plural of virus is viruses

Thank you. The "virii misspelling of "viruses" is starting to spread like a virus. BTW I'm working my Ph.D. in the field of...virology. Virologists say it and spell it as "viruses". Debate over.

Another annoyance: Pundits are pronouncing ideology as "eye-dee-ology" rather than the proper "ih-dee-ology" (sounds, appropriately enough, like "idiot"). Doesn't really matter I suppose, but I still get annoyed - although it probably has more to do with the bloviating than mispronunciation.

It used to be "neu-cue-lur" that annoyed me, but nobody says that anymore. Well, almost nobody
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post #91 of 115
5/7/05 at 12:17am
Quote:
Originally posted by RBR
People dislike Norton in general, and Systemworks in particular, for good reason. Their product has caused as many problems as it has solved. They completely and utterly fail to support their product and have an attrocious attitude toward Mac customers.

Why do you think that there is so much advice to "step away from the Norton (Systemworks)" for the few people still being misled into using that product?

The reason that they have discontinued Systemworks is, presumably, that it is no longer commercially viable. It will not be missed...well, actually it will. Good riddance!

Anybody who knows the Mac market knows that Norton SystemWorks for Macintosh was one of the top sellers in the utilities market. But that's aside the point. Systemworks may or may not have had trouble (I never used it so I don't know) but that's way off topic here. Symantec says they killed the product to focus on their bread and butter, Internet Security, and given their recent moves on the PC side, I am not surprised.

Quote:
It ordinarily is not desirable to have vendors dropping Mac support. In this case, it is.

<rant>
People like you make me thankful that my company deals mainly with enterprise customers. Customers like you have a bad experience and then make generalized assumptions about the quality of a product. If everybody thought like you, then Apple would've been out of business years ago when iBooks started dying left and right (causing a recall later on). Judging by the Apple tech support boards at the time (and currently, as the iBook issues lately seem to be a dime a dozen these days) it happened to a lot of people. But few ran around saying Apple sucks and they should stop making computers. Or the OS X 10.3 Firewire drive bug that caused data corruption. Or the OS X CoreAudio kernel panic that was quite rampant with people that have iSubs. I could go on.

In reality, they were all a small problem ocurring to a small group of customers, but on the Internet everybody thinks they're a journalist. Worse everybody believes everything they read on the Internet.</rant>
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post #92 of 115
5/7/05 at 12:44am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
I have yet to see TechTool, DiskWarrior et al produce trashed disks from known good ones. I have seen it with Norton. Their reputation on the Mac is well deserved. Sad, really. They used to be a good Mac house, many years ago. Now? Meh. They never really made the transition to X successfully.

I've had disks trashed by Techtools, thank you. And DiskWarrior had many problems through 10.3. We've had many a discussion about these problems in my user group.

We Mac users tend to be very critical of a lack of perceived perfection. Maybe that's good, maybe not. Often it's led to better products for us. Other times its led to products that were pretty good not being given a chance.

Symantec was pretty good to us over the years. As more Mac only products sprang up from small companies, Nortons sales shrank, and their updates became sparser. Companies reflect their user base. If the user base loses interest, then they do as well. The Mac is a small market. Sometimes small companies can thrive in it while large ones don't.

I'm sorry to see it go. Don't think that this will make Techtools any better, or the company any easier to deal with. Their update for 10.4 is already causing corruption, and Diskwarrior, as much as I like it, is not a full fledged utility.

The less competition there is, the worse it is.

Believe it!
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post #93 of 115
5/7/05 at 12:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Thank you. The "virii misspelling of "viruses" is starting to spread like a virus. BTW I'm working my Ph.D. in the field of...virology. Virologists say it and spell it as "viruses". Debate over.

Another annoyance: Pundits are pronouncing ideology as "eye-dee-ology" rather than the proper "ih-dee-ology" (sounds, appropriately enough, like "idiot"). Doesn't really matter I suppose, but I still get annoyed - although it probably has more to do with the bloviating than mispronunciation.

It used to be "neu-cue-lur" that annoyed me, but nobody says that anymore. Well, almost nobody

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you say the use is spreading. Thats all that matters.

Look, if language didn't change and evolve, we would all be speaking like Chaucer, or Shakespeare.

The arguments are worthless. Language is alive. Only the French, with their Academe, are foolishly trying to hold it back.
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post #94 of 115
5/7/05 at 4:29am
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Thank you. The "virii misspelling of "viruses" is starting to spread like a virus. BTW I'm working my Ph.D. in the field of...virology. Virologists say it and spell it as "viruses". Debate over.

The "virii" spelling is just as correct as "viruses".

Quote:
Another annoyance: Pundits are pronouncing ideology as "eye-dee-ology" rather than the proper "ih-dee-ology" (sounds, appropriately enough, like "idiot").

Both pronunciations are correct. Cf. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ry&va=ideology
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post #95 of 115
5/7/05 at 4:30am
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you say the use is spreading. Thats all that matters.

Look, if language didn't change and evolve, we would all be speaking like Chaucer, or Shakespeare.

The arguments are worthless. Language is alive. Only the French, with their Academe, are foolishly trying to hold it back.

I couldn't agree more. :-)
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post #96 of 115
5/7/05 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
thanks buddy.. now i just need to get Tiger

mattyj -- try the above link gsxrboy provided, it may give you better VLC performance on Tiger

Performance is perfect in Tiger now, no view size problems at all! Even live resizing is as smooth as butter on my Powerbook.
Abhor the Stereotype, respect the Individual.
1.33Ghz 15" Powerbook: 80GB HD, 1GB RAM, OSX.4.7, Soundsticks II, 320GB LaCie FW800 EXT HD, iPod 20GB 4G
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Abhor the Stereotype, respect the Individual.
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post #97 of 115
5/7/05 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by rmcgann220
[B]Anybody who knows the Mac market knows that Norton SystemWorks for Macintosh was one of the top sellers in the utilities market. But that's aside the point. Systemworks may or may not have had trouble (I never used it so I don't know) but that's way off topic here. Symantec says they killed the product to focus on their bread and butter, Internet Security, and given their recent moves on the PC side, I am not surprised.


<rant>
People like you make me thankful that my company deals mainly with enterprise customers. Customers like you have a bad experience and then make generalized assumptions about the quality of a product. If everybody thought like you, then Apple would've been out of business years ago when iBooks started dying left and right (causing a recall later on). Judging by the Apple tech support boards at the time (and currently, as the iBook issues lately seem to be a dime a dozen these days) it happened to a lot of people. But few ran around saying Apple sucks and they should stop making computers. Or the OS X 10.3 Firewire drive bug that caused data corruption. Or the OS X CoreAudio kernel panic that was quite rampant with people that have iSubs. I could go on.

In reality, they were all a small problem ocurring to a small group of customers, but on the Internet everybody thinks they're a journalist. Worse everybody believes everything they read on the Internet.</rant>

I am glad I don't use your product as you obviously do not know what you are talking about and, if that is an example, you probably don't know what you are doing with your product.

If you had any first hand experience with NSW you would not make such foolish statements as you have done here.
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post #98 of 115
5/7/05 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by RBR
I am glad I don't use your product as you obviously do not know what you are talking about and, if that is an example, you probably don't know what you are doing with your product.

If you had any first hand experience with NSW you would not make such foolish statements as you have done here.

i agree with RBR. all these bloody "enterprise" people think they're hella smart but really... they spend more time talking sh1t with know-nothing managers than actually doing real IT work in front of their computers.

i'm not taking this out on anyone personally, just that recently i've been really pissed off by some SAP guy and Veritas guy that thought they were the bee's knees. f8ck them. and f8ck the guy above talking about NSW even though he's not even really used it....

edit:
i lied, i am taking this personally
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post #99 of 115
5/7/05 at 10:48am
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Yeah, I think this thread has gotten a little too personal. What say we all back off, cool off, and try and keep it a little more congenial, hmm?

Continuing the discussion of language (mis)use, how badly Norton tools bite (or not), etc, should happen in a new thread over in General Discussion or AppleOutsider.

Thenk yew.
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post #100 of 115
5/7/05 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, I think this thread has gotten a little too personal. What say we all back off, cool off, and try and keep it a little more congenial, hmm?

Continuing the discussion of language (mis)use, how badly Norton tools bite (or not), etc, should happen in a new thread over in General Discussion or AppleOutsider.

Thenk yew.

A language thread would be interesting, if enough people would want to join.
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post #101 of 115
5/7/05 at 4:36pm
just had a horrid finder problem after 20 days uptime with Tiger, couldn't rename folders or files - it was like the keyboard was dead when in edit mode on a name. repaired permissions but no cigar...took a reboot and killed my uptime. blah.

also, automator beach balls for me more than anything. and QT7 is buggy, build slide shows and it can crash. i built a slide show using automator (download images from web pages, pipe into QT7) some slideshows don't show all the images, just one or two, its kind of random. Not happy after paying $29 for it. But the live recording in QT7 is cool especially with RAW and H.264 built right in!

and Dashboard scares the heck out of me now because widgets are autodownloaded (turned that off in safari). NOT a good plan apple. what a security NIGHTMARE.
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post #102 of 115
5/7/05 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by sandau
and Dashboard scares the heck out of me now because widgets are autodownloaded (turned that off in safari). NOT a good plan apple. what a security NIGHTMARE.

I agree that this is a legitimate security concern, but please... If you're surfing and some random new widget opens and prompts you to accept it, are you gonna click Accept?
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post #103 of 115
5/7/05 at 9:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Xool
I agree that this is a legitimate security concern, but please... If you're surfing and some random new widget opens and prompts you to accept it, are you gonna click Accept?

Some people might.
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post #104 of 115
5/7/05 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Some people might.

All too right.

Some people will think that it's coming from Apple.
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post #105 of 115
5/7/05 at 9:43pm
I'm sorry, but I think that's got to be one of the dumbest article titles I've ever read.

"Forthcoming Mac OS X 10.4.1 Update addresses Tiger issues"

You mean Apple's going to release an update for Tiger? And it's going to address some bugs? No way! Who'dve thunk?

MrToast
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post #106 of 115
5/7/05 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MrToast
I'm sorry, but I think that's got to be one of the dumbest article titles I've ever read.

"Forthcoming Mac OS X 10.4.1 Update addresses Tiger issues"

You mean Apple's going to release an update for Tiger? And it's going to address some bugs? No way! Who'dve thunk?

MrToast

WOW!

You're sharp.
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post #107 of 115
5/8/05 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
The "virii" spelling is just as correct as "viruses".

Both pronunciations are correct. Cf. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ry&va=ideology
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post #108 of 115
5/8/05 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
The "virii" spelling is just as correct as "viruses".

Both pronunciations are correct. Cf. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ry&va=ideology

In the USA English perhaps. Not in UK English. Not in the Apple dictionary widget either - no mention of virii - to stray vaguely on topic ;-).

Sorry it just grates that gradually American mis-spelling and bad pronunciation is spreading. Christ, last week I even heard an English BBC presenter pronouncing IRAQ the American way - ie. like eye-rack instead of the Iraqi way.

Anyway, stepping off today's hobby horse...
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post #109 of 115
5/8/05 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
In the USA English perhaps. Not in UK English. Not in the Apple dictionary widget either - no mention of virii - to stray vaguely on topic ;-).

Sorry it just grates that gradually American mis-spelling and bad pronunciation is spreading. Christ, last week I even heard an English BBC presenter pronouncing IRAQ the American way - ie. like eye-rack instead of the Iraqi way.

Anyway, stepping off today's hobby horse...

It's American English that's spreading around the world.

Pronunciation changes over the years as well. The truth is that almost all English have terrible pronunciation. We do as well. It depends on where you are from.

Lower class English pronunciation and accents are the worst I've ever heard. At least the strongest American accents are understandable.
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post #110 of 115
5/8/05 at 5:23pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
On topic! On topic! Language discussion over THATaway...

Language may mutate. These forums should not. Get hither with yon linguistic soliloquies, before I pop a cap in yo ass.
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post #111 of 115
5/9/05 at 1:54am
10.3.9 still working great.

I don't understand why so many people rushed to install 10.4. Even less I have a hard time understanding those people's reactions to bugs in a .0 release.

Hello?

6.0? 7.0? 7.5? 8.0? 8.5? 9.0?, 10.0.0?, 10.1.0?, and lets not forget the infamous 10.2.0!

I waited for 6.1, 7.1, 7.6, 8.1, 8.6, 9.1, etc.

Dance for me guinea pigs! DANCE! MUHUHAHAHAHA

/goes back to his rock-solid 10.3.9 system with his rock-solid 10.3.9-friendly applications
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post #112 of 115
5/9/05 at 2:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by strobe
10.3.9 still working great.

I don't understand why so many people rushed to install 10.4. Even less I have a hard time understanding those people's reactions to bugs in a .0 release.

Hello?

6.0? 7.0? 7.5? 8.0? 8.5? 9.0?, 10.0.0?, 10.1.0?, and lets not forget the infamous 10.2.0!

I waited for 6.1, 7.1, 7.6, 8.1, 8.6, 9.1, etc.

Dance for me guinea pigs! DANCE! MUHUHAHAHAHA

/goes back to his rock-solid 10.3.9 system with his rock-solid 10.3.9-friendly applications

ROFLMAO funny sh1t mate,
(iBook 933mhz G4 256mb RAM on the world's most stable prosumer operating system, Mac OS 10.3.9)
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post #113 of 115
5/9/05 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by strobe
Dance for me guinea pigs! DANCE! MUHUHAHAHAHA

I refuse to do anything more than run on this wheel
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post #114 of 115
5/9/05 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Some people might.

There's a lot of things people might and can do. Popups with shakey gifs inside that tell you your PC is infected get clicked on too when it obviously some hook for spyware.

In my opinion, all that is needed is some security settings relating to new/untrusted widgets. Apple has done the minimum, but they could take a few extra steps to ensure that lamers don't get themselves rooted.

I'd be more worries about unscrupulous individuals posting some new killer widget to VersionTracker that actually kills, doing more harm than good. Those who love to install all these random apps and such would likely download and approve the widget, and the damage would be done long before the Mac community jumps on them and to the rescue.

In general: Look Before You Leap
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post #115 of 115
5/9/05 at 4:00pm
Funny how just a short time ago, Microsoft was chastized for it's lax security policy... Apple does not have a stellar record and this ain't helping.

Sorry guys, but it's the truth... this could be a big deal.
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