Is the US trying to insult Islam?

Uhhhhh ...

Yes?

The name of the new campaign to defame that religion by the US is : iSlam



okay... I'll get my coat

Well, both Islam and Christianity are as corrupt and as far removed from the truth as one can get. The important word to distinguish here is Fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism, is when people become insular and hateful, they also develop a nasty superiority complex to deceive themselves from realising just how hateful and angry they really are.

It is a disease of the mind, - where in order to prove they are worth something, they have to convince and posture themselves that they are more rigid, uncomprimising and true to the literal word than they were previously.

Soon you have a spiral of deceit, that can only be bettered by telling an even bigger lie, until it gets to the point that they have to utterly believe their own lie in order to believe anything. And then they are lost.

Whats even sadder, is that Islam and Christianity are 'the same thing', yet as we go into the unknown future, the lie of fundamentalism is to create an even bigger chasm between the two, in order to fulfill the believe that only they can be right.

And someday, it is going to fuck everyone.

I'm going to assume that "the US" means "the Bush Administration" since they are currently leading the nation.

With that terminlogy in place, I don't think the US is trying to insult Islam. I think the US is simply too ignorant and arrogant to not insult Islam. Meaning: When you get a jingoistic xenophobe dealing with

Put a racist in a room full of black people, even on his best behavior, the racist is going to piss them off because a racist's best behavior is still racist. Now leave him in the room for a long time (prolonged "war" on "terror") and put some environmental stresses in there and all hell will break loose.

I think I found the key word in that report. Not that it makes any difference now whether it happened or not. America's reputation in the Middle East is so damaged now, through actual intent or just plain ignorance, that nobody over there will care if the report turns out to be fabricated.

I do not believe that the US is leading a war on Islam - I do believe that some religious fanatics (it is irrelevant that they happen to be right-wing) are engaged on a 'Crusade' to 'convert' Muslims (as well as many other people) and that these groups have made substantial inroads into the miltary and politics.

I'm going to back that up with some links and some chilling info when I get round to it but first it's worth addressing two points:

1) I recently had several experiences which I shall not divulge here but which have brought me to a deeper understanding of spiritual Christianity in all its forms. In fact I'm quite near to repenting from bashing (almost but not quite there yet ) and I have come to believe that some (not all) 'fundies' are sincere.

Many of these people may genuinely want to 'save' people they regard as lost and may even care about them. Sure, they are running a 'Crusade' and (imo) it is ill-=advised but that's not to say we need to assume they are operating from sinister motives.

2) Fundamentalism: I now have to recant and distance myself from this term 'fundie' (again) - in reference to MarcUKs point about fundamentlists above, I now believe this to be totally wrong: a fundamentalist would be one who believed in the fundamentals of the religion - and hence, as the fundamentals are good and correct, would be a 'good guy'.

I think 'literalist' is a far better term - people who take their scriptures literally are often not the most broad-minded and where a broad mind is needed (dealing with other cultures for example) this can lead to trouble.

Anyway, re the Qur'an - imo, it was just some bright-spark's genius idea for getting someone to talk. You have to see both sides of the coin - Wahabis and literalists flaunt their own weaknesses - who can blame someone in opposition for using them.

Isn't it funny how this word has change? (if you think tragic is funny)

What once meant one thing... is now the opposite.

No evil USSR to scare people with...big problem. Bingo! Islam has neatly filled the gap, and probably more effectively because the muslim religion knows no national boundaries.

The people driving US foreign policy (the Neocons), with an unrepentant bias towards extremist Zionism, have effectively framed all muslims as terrorists or potential terrorists, for a large section of the US public. The neocons got a fortunate foundation with Palestine, the PLO and Yasser Arafat: the PLO (a terrorist organization), effectively made the word "Palestine" or anything "Palestinian" (or Arab for that matter) synonymous with terrorism and terrorists. It's not about 'insulting' muslims, it's about this administration framing, (or attempting to frame) them all as terrorists or potential ones, with the help of their publicity arm, the complicit (corporate) media.

The war on terror = the war on Islam. And without the "convenience" of 9-11 to "legitimize" it and bolster the neocon cause to such a massive extent, they would still be in the relative political doldrums, re. their sphere of influence.

Hugely oversimplified, but thats the general gist.

I have huge respect for fundamentalists, no matter what kind, as opposed to the majority of people who will compromise on their beliefs and principles.

This is not to say I would always prefer the company of the fundamentalist to that of the moderate

As long as people are aware about the concept of separation between church and state, and care to implement it properly, I don't see why most religion would ever be a problem for others.

Being aware of the possibility of separation, yet not implementing it, is asking for trouble IMO.

My question is: Guantanamo Bay prison has toilets?

It's not as primitive as some think.
Though I'm not certain about the prison facilities... \

Some quotes from the site:

well I cant disagree, but at the end of the day, were both meaning the same mindset however we chose to label it.

It's a bit like the definition of Christian no?

A bit.

The thing is that (imo) God gave us reason and the ability (necessity) to use logic. The reason He did this (again imo) was becasue we need it - ie: things are not simple - there is no 'absolute proof' which will satisfy everyone, if there was and the truth of things was as obvious as knowing you are sitting on a chair for example, we wouldn't need reason would we ?

These literalists in all religions have forsaken reason and we need to get back to it. And I don't mean philosophical or logical wiseacring either - perhaps 'sincerity' is a better word. At the end of the day, one is either searching for the truth of any matter with an open mind (ie no preconceived bias) and if one does this sincerely then this is worth more than a philosophical procedure no ?

Of course, if one goes down this path then there is a high chance one might find something (as opposed to leaving the blinkers on) and naturally, many people might not like what they might find and decide it's not worth the risk - but that's a different story

yeah, but didn't we steal that in the garden?

My questions are:

Are we going to equate all of islam with a bunch of college students rioting over mere allegations?

What dimwit puts even an iota of stock in this?

Are none of you insulted that snot-nosed college kids are declaring "death to america" over a book, that is readily available?

These punks are going to be the same people that will be killing the troops that you claim to support, and you're worried about insulting them?

I guess the Borg has decided...

Never mind. Bygones.

So I am assuming from the total lack of response that, shouting "death to America" is an acceptable response to an alleged book flushing.

You guys will embrace any ally, so long as it hurts GWB.

Unbelievable.

So there you have it, the Common Man has spoken: 'book flushing'.

Out of interest, would you regard, say, burning the flag, as 'cloth disposing' ? Is there nothing you would hold sacred and deem worthy of respect (I was going to add 'even if you don't agree with it' but stopped myself in time) ?

If so then I guess we can just move on. If not then we can discuss what that makes you which will be only slightly less tedious.....

Call it what you want. It makes no difference at this point. It is all about accusations and allegations.


You mean like they do at the anti-Bush Rallies and I am sure they did at this shindig in Afghanistan? How about the Bush effigies that get burnt, hung and stomped at many a liberal rally right here at home? Is that OK in your eyes?

But let's get beyond all that. You don't find it at all offensive that this group of radicals wish to kill over a rumor - a allegation? And not just one or two people, but "Death to America"? You seem to be justifying this call to arms, or maybe your just agreeing with it, I'm not sure. All over a book. It is the ideas that are "sacred" not the book itself. And these people calling for "death to america" obviously don't embrace the ideas of the "religion of peace".


Refer to above. Ideas not paper. Get a grip.

Unlike the definitive proof you've dumped on us showing that the clintons are serial killers.

For real! After all, Christians would never get offended by someone desecrating a bible, particularly if they were muslim.

Yes, but could we get National Endowment for the Arts Funding for it? ....maybe a stall of performance art next to the Mapplethorpe exhibit?

A true Christian shouldn't be offended by that at all.

Or are Christians idol worshippers?

Oh and Muslims shouldn't care about the physical Koran either.

When you are worshipping a physical object to the point where you'll kill to defend it, it's idol worship in my opinion. Same goes for the U.S. flag. :shrug:

^^^^^^^ Doesn't look much like a stauros to me

So speaks the mouthpeice for the Borg.

The collective loves to perpetrate mistruths. The collective will keep you warm. Obey the collective...

No thanks, you know how I feel about wingers and Islamophobes....

Seriously though, I'd like to ask you something: have you ever whilst posting here learnt something that was opposed to what you previously believed or understood and taken it on board ?

If so, how has it changed your outlook ?

What was it ?

It's a serious question and I'm quite happy to reciprocate if necessary. We need to up the quality here while we still have the chance if f you catch my drift.

Oops.

If that's really the case, it would seem that Newsweek is vying with Ridley Scott/Fox for title of "most culturally irresponsible media outlet".

As long as the rioters only end up dying themselves, then the world is better off with them dead.

Anyone who decides to kill over the desecration of a book is a neanderthal-like dimwit, like the retarded bully in elementary school.

Indeed.

Seems like somebody gave up and pulled the story under pressure.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...an_newsweek_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked by the article.

Editor Mark Whitaker said the magazine inaccurately reported that U.S. military investigators had confirmed that personnel at the detention facility in Cuba had flushed the Muslim holy book down the toilet."

Please read this carefully Fellowship, sammi jo, segovius, Wrong Robot, groverat, and the rest of the AO collective.

The earlier NYT said "Newsweek magazine said today that it might have erred" leaving the possibility open to the easily influenced, that the story was actually not a lie.

EDIT: Could your standard copy of the Koran actually flush down your standard issue army toilet?

And why am I not in this list? Care to answer that question? Hrmmm?


BREAKING NEWS: Time passes.


Picture this: I have a book I want to flush down the toilet. I tear out the pages.

Feel free to add youself to the list. No offense intended by leaving you off it.

Perhaps you are right about the individual pages thing, but the story is now an admitted falsehood.

yes, but is it art?

It depends. When I used Atlas Shrugged for toilet paper (literally), I didn't really think of it as an artistic endeavor.

I do get your drift and couldn't agree more if we were the very same person. If you will recall, I have repeatedly called for civility and honest debate.


If you're asking, have I ever been wrong? Sure, and I admit such, publicly.

If you're asking me if I have ever questioned my stances on issues, once again, sure. I would hope we all do that on a regular basis. But don't expect me to adopt your stances. And you see there is where debate can be powerful or totally futile, depending on your approach to it.

When Giant posts insults to people because they don't agree with him, he immediately, instantaneously removes any possibility that any tinge of agreement can be reached. Not picking on him, just putting out an example.

If you are a politician you rely on agreement. A good one will find some point of agreement no matter how small, to get your support. This place is no different, really. Or should I say, it shouldn't be. No one can be right all the time, so that shouldn't be the motivation here. A much healthier one should be truth and fairness.