Is the US trying to insult Islam? - Page 4

What do they value?
Mysticism
Self Sacrifice
The Group over the individual.

What do I value?
Reason
Self Interest
The Rights of the Individual vs. The Collective.

There is no middle ground. I can live with that.
If they'll leave me alone, I'll leave them alone. That's as far as I'll go in pursuit of a 'cure'.

V/R,
Aries 1B

Maybe if you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone. Ever thought of that?

Your evidence consists of testimony by non-disinterested parties. Indeed, one of your articles admits that the subject testimony cannot be corraborated.

A possibility that you should add to your artifically constrained choices is that the complainers may have been trained to level accusations such as these in the event of capture.

Newsweek has retracted the story, which means that Newsweek thinks that the story is false. The burden of proof rests with those still claiming that the Newsweek report is true to prove that it is true. A dung-encrusted holy book, for example, would be the beginning of proof. Where's the dung-encrusted holy book? Then we'd need to see the chain of evidence....

It's more likely, in my opinion, that the anonymous source read military reports of prisoner(s) trying to stop up their own toilets with pages from their Koran as a form of protest, half forgot about the report, and when asked, after a big lunch with drinks, resorted to a fogged/failed memory of 'this is how I think that I remember that report went'.

At root, most charitable interpretation, I think that the source probably made a mistake as outlined above.

V/R,

Aries 1B

I thought you said you valued 'reason' ?

It could mean any number of things. It could mean that Newsweek knows it is true and they were ordered to pull the story.


Funny...I feel the same way about the 911 evidence we were promised but never saw.......

Update: seems that it was the Red Cross that informed the US of the ongoing abuse.

You don't think that 'Red' means....commie.....??

Man you are thick:

"But ICRC delegates, who have been granted access to the secretive camp since January 2002, gathered and corroborated enough similar, independent reports from detainees to raise the issue multiple times with Guantanamo commanders and with Pentagon officials, Schorno said in an interview Wednesday."

I'm sorry, giving the benefit of the doubt to terrorists and suspected terrorists over those the people that are trying to protect my family is not something I'm prepared to do. You nor anyone here has brought anything to light that "proves" wrongdoing.

In fact (Now I know this will send you into convulsions, so prepare) if you look at it very carefully, without your "progressive" lenses on, it seems to prove the notion that AQ and AQ sympathizers are trained to spread these type of accusations. This is stated in the AQ training manual:

The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with
an Islamic regime. Other missions consist of the following:

1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3. Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate
people against the enemy.
6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality, and sin; not a vital target.
7. Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the
cities.

These are their goals, you will have to come to grips with it, before you can move on. I am unclear why we are arguing about offending people that have "Assassinating foreign tourists" in their goal set. Or how about #6 through #8?

Those are lofty goals you are, in essence, defending. Don't have a knipsion fit over what I just stated - I am not saying you are a terrorists supporter. I am saying your stance on these issues may inadvertently have the same effect, though. The terrorists realize there are those among us that will feel sorry for the poor oppressed radical muslim, that will fight to set them free. And many are filling that role without even considering they may be doing exactly what was expected of them.

You said it.

Should we also ignore the leaked US report detailing abuse at Bagram?

Or the convictions at Abu Ghraib?

Or should we just imagine it shows the US might just be capable of this sort of thing.

Blind.

Winger.

The Red Cross is an evil organization. First of all, they are reds. Second of all, their sister organization is the Red Crescent, which is Muslim, which means they are terrorists. Third, the Red Cross was formed in Geneva, where -- get this -- they speak FRENCH! And Geneva is conveniently located just minutes away, on three sides, from the French border. The picture couldn't be more clear. It's an American hating organization if ever there was one.

Wow, that has to be the most reasonable and level headed post EVER.

I hoped you think so

I am not telling you or anyone to ignore anything.

Abu Ghraib happened. But unlike the lefty propaganda, it has been proven that it was an isolated incident and not US or military policy.

Can individuals, when put in extraordinary situations make bad judgments, sure. Seemingly good people commit crimes everyday. But you are going from that to asserting that it is US policy to do these things.

You are upset that the "US" is supposedly mistreating these Taliban and AQ suspects and terrorists. Perhaps you should read this interview and watch the corresponding documentary, Beneath the Veil (not the Michael Moore kind either.)

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/COMMUNITY/08/24/shah/

She relays in her interview that many of the Taliban knew very little about Islam nor follow it's teachings.

Are these the people you wish to save from the US? Put aside your hatred for Bush a little while. Are these the people you want to spend your energy on?

I will give you the fact that some innocents may get caught up in this mess, but it's not purposeful. They can't take chances like you are seeming to ask. The stakes are way too high.

If "blind" or "winger" shows up one more time in this thread...



teh locked!

Shouldn't "lefty" be included as well?

Or "hatred for Bush."

Better yet, if anyone uses any negative nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, and/or prepositional phrases in addressing another member personally, this thread is locked.

Clear enough?

Back on-topic, Human Rights Watch has issued a report stating that religious humiliation of detainees is so widespread it is tantamount to official policy.

Allegations, once again. Who cares what they think. I care what they can prove. That is what's important.

.

Did you read the link Naples?


That's a little more than mere allegation.

yes, of course.

It has nothing to do with the topic - flushing Koran down toilets in an attempt to insult Islam? It proves that taking the Koran out of the interrogation room is approved. So?

Shaving ones face or taking clothing items is much less severe than a head hacking it off while they are still alive, I think we can agree on that.

Besides, these are interrogation techniques, not general prison rules.

Please. I beg of you to be honest here.

Are you insinuating I am being dishonest? Please point out where I was so.

Yes, it is UTTERLY and annoyingly obvious that shaving a man's beard is less severe than cutting his head off. So annoying and ridiculous, in fact, that I'm having trouble replying to such a silly factoid. Maybe I'll give it more thought later. I hope I do not.

And actually the topic is: Is the US trying to insult Islam? Seems like a broad question to me, I'd prefer you point out to me exactly where in that question it points specifically to toilets and Qu'rans?

Imagine yourself locked up for 4 years, in a cell, not knowing why you're there, no hope of release. All you have is a Bible. This is just a book, but it's all you have, and the words are all you have, the message is all you have, the hope it inspires is all you have.

Now imagine some jerk flushing it down the toilet.

This whole thread is based on a lie. So, we could start there.

But where I feel you are being dishonest is trying to connect interrogation techniques with the supposed attempts to insult Islam. Your whole argument is bolstered by or based on a lie (the Newsweek Story). So to me that means all further support for this argument is dishonest.

You may have been truthful when you said that "these are not mere allegations", but the premise is anything but.

Imagine going to your mundane thankless job, with only the weekend with the kids as your motivation. to do it day after day. It's not much but it's your life.

Now imagine some islamic extremist crashing a airliner full of jet fuel into the building where you work, just a few floors below you.

Now imagine taking your children to the market because your village is too far away to leave them alone, to spend the few dollars you have on some bread for the week. It's not a lot, that bread, but it's yours.

Now imagine that an islamic extremist suicide bomber pulls the chord on his custom made belt while standing right next to your kids.

This is a total lie, I watch Conan Obrien and they tested this. You cannot flush a Koran nor any other book down the toilet. They substituted a Paris Hilton Book but never the less it cant be done. And who cares its only paper!

so waht you are saying is that nobody in the world understands each other?

I quite agree.

And while I see that everyone in the world regardless of nationalistic boundaries - is pretty much the same person, with the same hopes, ambitions, chores and problems to solve, most people don't see this.

What happens is that no-one has really realised that all the religions- AND athiesm, in the world are an answer to the same basic question. What has happened is that because of ignorance and fundamentalism, both Islam, Christianity and all the other religions are always in conflict with eachother, causing anger, resentment, wars and conflict.

Here's the reason why.

Satan knows he cannot defeat the word of God, so Satans second best option is to use the word of God against itself. Division is Satan's plan, and he has been quite successful convincing people to destroy each other by fooling them into not realising that everyone has the word of God, specific to them.

well i don't think it really matters if the book physically goes down the pipe, it's the symbolism of destruction through lack of respect that matters.

Imagine paranoia.

You have an uncanny ability to extract information you choose to refute from statements that do not exist.

I quoted some text. I said that text was more than mere allegation. If that is untrue, please explain how.

Beyond that, quit dreaming up all kinds of things I didn't quote and therefor didn't address.

Toilet at Gitmo



plus miniature Qur'an



= someone's lying to you.

You believe them because they 'tested' it. So you spread the lie to others, some of whom are sheep too and will bleat along in the chorus.

Everyone's happy down on the happy farm and mom's baking apple pie.

Dude im just messing with you, But after seeing our flag burnt so many times.............. I really could care a less if they really did this, its like flushing a bible are we all supposed to get up and Boo Hoo? Most of these guys are murdering terrorist instead of insulting their fanatical religion they should be executing these guys like the terrorist have done to thousands. Problem solved Saddam style. But we arent like them now are we. So the liberal press makes a big deal of insults but where were they when christins are murdered in these Muslim countries? nowhere to be found. Its B.S. Political Spin with the Media helping as much as it can to generate ratings.

That's fair enough - as I said earlier, theologically there is nor reason for such a fuss about Qur'an flushing as an act a priori.

There are two subsidary issues which nevertheless ARE important.

1) the US admin is proving itself incompetent whilst prosecuting the war. That's important.

2) The intent that is signified behind these actions is on contradiction to the image the US presents. That implies lack of integrity.


Err, no....most of them are innocent people who will never get a chance to state their case in a court of law and who can look forward to a lifetime of detention without charge or trail - just like under Saddam.


So you do think the religion is fanatical. Why not support desecrating its symbols then ? Is it just that you don't have the balls to say it ?


Execution without charge or trial or establishment of guilt. Nice. It's one way I suppose.

Or, alternatively, we could all join ranks and stamp out the fascists that spread this kind of diseased thinking like we did in WW2.



Yes.


There is no liberal press.


Which 'christins' were murdered ?

Where ?

By who ?

I agree about incompetance in the administration of this war, I also agree that the ruling class in this country (USA) are not acting on behalf the American people they are acting on what lobbiest want. Hell these bastards still wont even close our border at this so called time of war?
As far as the few innocent i think that everyone deserves their day in court.
Im not going to look up persecution of christins for you but feel free, many, many, murdered. Remember in the new testament Jesus was about love not Jihad thank you. Islam is not a tolerant belief system. But then the old testament wasnt much either.
Is the U.S trying to insult Islam? No its not our style since we are made up of everyone on the planet. The Media? now thats a different story.

Right. It's that dirty free press that's the problem. Get rid of them and the administration would be free to pursue the WOT by any means necessary without anyone needing to know about unpleasant details.

Freedom's just another word for "in the way of killing towel heads".

The Media Sector Is Liberal!

Ok, looks like we're done.

Is the US trying to insult Islam?

Yes.

Next.....

So you support Roe v. Wade as well as gay marriage then. Good to know.

You don't have to look it up for me as I am very familiar with the complete data - I suggest you look it up for yourself and try to think about it.

Whilst you are at it I feel the two quotes below will clearly show that you know very, very little about these matters.

I really hope you can improve. We can talk again if and when you do.


Matthew 10:34 - 36: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

Luke 14:25-33 " If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also (like I do), he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 22 - 36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (to the disciples).


Qur'an 2:62 "Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."

Segovious, why is it continuously necessary for you to be disingenuous in order to make your point? Your three Bible quotes have nothing at all to do with the sort of Xenophobia that is manifested at large in Islam. You claim to be educated enough to know the difference. That last post was a dissapointment.

Point to me ANY Bible commentary that says those passages have any violent connotations whatsoever for Christ-like living.


..and then out of the other side of your mouth you miss passages like this from the big Q:

....which directly translates to how things are done today.

Very dissapointing. Enough of the PR and taqiya.

I'm afraid that unlike you, I am not an apologist for any one circumscribed and limited world view - especially a medieval or pre-medieval one which has nor relevance whatsoever to contemporary life.

Accordingly, I have no problems pointing out that the Bible is riddled with contradictions as is every other scripture.

You have pointed out some contradictions in the Qur'an as I have in the Bible, but true to form (and like our esteemed resident Islamophobe to whom I was responding in this particular instance) you are unable to accept the Bible quotes as being actual contradictions and must resort to special pleading. Likewise, and unlike myself, you are also unable to accept the Qur'anic quote I supplied fopr the oppostie reason: the Qur'an must be bad just as the Bible must be correct - the fact is either can be read either way, good or bad but you and your kind will not look those facts in the face and will only focus on the quotes that support your world view.

All I am saying is that their are quotes in both that can be taken either way. If you want to be a fanboy of one and a demonizer of the other at the expense of the complete picture then don't let me stop you - you will have the force of the masses to back you up and billions of people can't be wrong right ?