or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Is the US trying to insult Islam?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Is the US trying to insult Islam? - Page 2

post #41 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
If you're asking, have I ever been wrong? Sure, and I admit such, publicly.

About what? Specifically.

Quote:
If you're asking me if I have ever questioned my stances on issues, once again, sure.

On what, specifically?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #42 of 236
Everyone:

Get on topic.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #43 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Everyone:

Get on topic.

Good point.

It is possible to flush a Qur'an - they come in all sizes. I personally have several miniature ones which you can hold in the palm of your hand and certainly seem flushable although I have no personal experience yet of the relative size of the facilities at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.

Secondly, given that this is a sensitive issue (some Mullahs are calling for jihad), I suppose Newsweek might attempt to retract and cover-over the mistake of the leak. Unbelievabe and unheard of I know but it is a remote possibility, infinitessimal though it must be given the exacting standards, honesty and sincerity of the US media networks.

Finally, I would say that it is not so much whether the event actually happened but that it can be believed to have happened. That is the measure of the climate that has been created and the prevailing background which all efforts miltary and diplomatic are operating against.

The important question should be: why is this so believable to Musims now ? How was it allowed to happen that the US could squander such potential support that they desperately need ?

The alleged falsity of the allegations doesn't make the problem go away - in fact it increases it by sweeping it under the carpet so it can come back to bite another time.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #44 of 236
It is in the Al Qeda training manual to make allegations against the infidels. I think the U.S. is stiched any way they go here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #45 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Good point.

It is possible to flush a Qur'an - they come in all sizes. I personally have several miniature ones which you can hold in the palm of your hand and certainly seem flushable although I have no personal experience yet of the relative size of the facilities at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.

Secondly, given that this is a sensitive issue (some Mullahs are calling for jihad), I suppose Newsweek might attempt to retract and cover-over the mistake of the leak. Unbelievabe and unheard of I know but it is a remote possibility, infinitessimal though it must be given the exacting standards, honesty and sincerity of the US media networks.

Finally, I would say that it is not so much whether the event actually happened but that it can be believed to have happened. That is the measure of the climate that has been created and the prevailing background which all efforts miltary and diplomatic are operating against.

The important question should be: why is this so believable to Musims now ? How was it allowed to happen that the US could squander such potential support that they desperately need ?

The alleged falsity of the allegations doesn't make the problem go away - in fact it increases it by sweeping it under the carpet so it can come back to bite another time.

Yeah but now we are moving the goal-posts, aren't we?

Its not that it really happened but wether or not it is believable that it might happen.... REALLY?

It didn't happen. And now people have died as a direct result of faulty reporting. I would hope that the same standards apply to the media that supposedly were being applied to the current administration.

I would expect that the left decry the tactics of Newsweek, or are we to overlook this as a simple "mistake"?
post #46 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
About what? Specifically.

My view of Abu-Graib

Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
On what, specifically?

Iraq, WOT, Immigration, you name it. It is a constant thing, as it should be.
post #47 of 236
It seems that regardless of the truth of the Newsweek article, it is remarkably similar to several other earlier accounts of Qur'an desecration which have, unsurprisingly, not been widely reported or even reported at all.

Quote:
Several former detainees at the Guantanamo and Bagram airbase prisons have reported instances of their handlers sitting or standing on the Quran, throwing or kicking it in toilets, and urinating on it.

Where the Newsweek report likely erred was in saying that the U.S. was slated to acknowledge desecrating the Quran in internal investigations, and in relying on a single anonymous source to make grave allegations. But reports of desecration are manifold.

One such incidentduring which the Koran allegedly was thrown in a pile and stepped onprompted a hunger strike among Guantanamo detainees in Mar. 2002, which led to an apology. The New York Times interviewed former detainee Nasser Nijer Naser al-Mutairi May 1, who said the protest ended with a senior officer delivering an apology to the entire camp.

The article cites numerous documented reports of prisoners and links to articles claiming a range of desecration ranging from stamping and kicking Qur'ans to urinating on them.

It raises another question now: to what extent can this behaviour be that of a civilized Intel unit ? Despite being counter-productive, is it actually morally or professionally acceptable regardless of the religious ramifications or the object of the defamation ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #48 of 236
So this is like "Rathergate" in more than one way: No one at all disputes the actual facts of the allegation, only the messenger delivering the allegations.

Bush was a child of privelege who was spoon-fed through life and took no responsibility for himself, sure, but damnit that piece of paper was forged!

Our foreign policy is inherently racist and it actively steps on the toes of other cultures and religions, sure, but damnit that particular incident didn't happen that way!
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #49 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
So this is like "Rathergate" in more than one way: No one at all disputes the actual facts of the allegation, only the messenger delivering the allegations.

Bush was a child of privelege who was spoon-fed through life and took no responsibility for himself, sure, but damnit that piece of paper was forged!

Our foreign policy is inherently racist and it actively steps on the toes of other cultures and religions, sure, but damnit that particular incident didn't happen that way!

No, Newsweek has admitted the facts are WRONG.

DMZ also posted a very apropos fact, that seems to be ignored here - AQ recognizes the willingness of the press to report bad news and in particular bad news about US behavior, and trains it's members to make all sorts of allegations to hurt the US. So to say that there's been allegations of wrongdoing, does not make those allegations true. Let's separate fact from wishful thinking here.

And who cares about Bush's service record, it hasn't mattered through 2 elections and there is no more in his future. Time to get new talking points, methinks.
post #50 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
No, Newsweek has admitted the facts are WRONG.

from your link:
Quote:
The weekly news magazine said in its May 23 edition that the information had come from a "knowledgeable government source" who told Newsweek that a military report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay said interrogators flushed at least one copy of the Koran down a toilet in a bid to make detainees talk.

But Newsweek said the source later told the magazine he could not be certain he had seen an account of the Koran incident in the military report and that it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts.

They reported what they were told by a "knowledgeable government source" who later retracted his story after the shitstorm.
post #51 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
And who cares about Bush's service record, it hasn't mattered through 2 elections and there is no more in his future. Time to get new talking points, methinks.

Maybe some of us are less interested in talking points and more interested in facts.
post #52 of 236
Naples:

I didn't intend to rehash the Rathergate discussion, merely to illuminate a parallel between the two stories.

The facts of this case aren't "wrong", it's a source pulling back a little in the face of a massive backlash.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #53 of 236
This is silly. Another instance of the winger PR machine getting its little gullible troopers to go out and show everyone they can their "indignation".

I'm surprised they didn't go after the Philadelphia Inquirer who on January 20th 2005 reported: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...n/10685611.htm
Quote:
Some detainees complained of religious humiliation, saying guards had defaced their copies of the Koran and, in one case, had thrown it in a toilet, said Kristine Huskey [an attorney in Washington, D.C.], who interviewed clients late last month. Others said that pills were hidden in their food and that people came to their cells claiming to be their attorneys, to gain information.

"All have been physically abused, and, however you define the term, the treatment of these men crossed the line," [attorney Tom] Wilner said. "There was torture, make no mistake about it."

Or the Center of Constitutional Rights, in a Human Rights Watch Report footnote:
Quote:
72.They were never given prayer mats and initially they didn't get a Koran. When the Korans were provided, they were kicked and thrown about by the guards and on occasion thrown in the buckets used for the toilets. This kept happening. When it happened it was always said to be an accident but it was a recurrent theme.

Quote:
74.They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it.

I'm also surprised they aren't going after Gen. Richard Myers, for saying on May 12th :
Quote:
. The chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff says a report from Afghanistan suggests that rioting in Jalalabad on May 11 was not necessarily connected to press reports that the Quran might have been desecrated in the presence of Muslim prisoners held in U.S. custody at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Air Force General Richard Myers told reporters at the Pentagon May 12 that he has been told that the Jalalabad, Afghanistan, rioting was related more to the ongoing political reconciliation process in Afghanistan than anything else." [H]e has been told that the Jalalabad, Afghanistan, rioting was related more to the ongoing political reconciliation process in Afghanistan than anything else."

.
Quote:
However, Myers said an after-action report provided by U.S. Army Lieutenant General Karl Eikenberry, commander of the Combined Forces in Afghanistan, indicated that the political violence was not, in fact, connected to the magazine report.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archi...anlid=washfile

Naples: Your indirect or direct suggestions, and direct accusations of the ones who disagree with you, that they hate or don't care for their country, that they hate the President, that they only "claim to support the troops" are old boring bullshit. We don't need it in every thread you participate in. That garbage is freeperland material.
Quote:
Courtesy of Naples: -So I am assuming from the total lack of response that, shouting "death to America" is an acceptable response to an alleged book flushing.
-You guys will embrace any ally, so long as it hurts GWB.
-the same people that will be killing the troops that you claim to support
post #54 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Naples:

I didn't intend to rehash the Rathergate discussion, merely to illuminate a parallel between the two stories.

The facts of this case aren't "wrong", it's a source pulling back a little in the face of a massive backlash.

Ok, fine.

Fact 1: There have been accusations of disrespect to the Quaran.

In light of:

Fact 2: AQ and associates are trained to make false accusations just like those mentioned in Fact 1.

So where does that leave us?

If you add Fact1 with Fact2, you don't automatically come up with "abbuses are taking place" or "Quaran flushing is commonplace" or "US policy is abuse" as Fact3.

What "facts" are you talking about?
post #55 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Ok, fine.

Fact 1: There have been accusations of disrespect to the Quaran.

In light of:

Fact 2: AQ and associates are trained to make false accusations just like those mentioned in Fact 1.

So where does that leave us?

If you add Fact1 with Fact2, you don't automatically come up with "abbuses are taking place" or "Quaran flushing is commonplace" or "US policy is abuse" as Fact3.

What "facts" are you talking about?

Fact 2 Needs amending.

I would initially suggest something like this:

Quote:
There has been an unsubstantiated suggestion proposed that AQ and associates are trained to make false accusations just like those mentioned in Fact 1.

But there's another more serious problem. You see, there is no such thing as al Qaeda.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #56 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
This is silly. Another instance of the winger PR machine getting its little gullible troopers to go out and show everyone they can their "indignation".

I'm surprised they didn't go after the Philadelphia Inquirer who on January 20th 2005 reported: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...n/10685611.htm Or the Center of Constitutional Rights, in a Human Rights Watch Report footnote:
I'm also surprised they aren't going after Gen. Richard Myers, for saying on May 12th : .
http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archi...anlid=washfile

Naples: Your indirect or direct suggestions, and direct accusations of the ones who disagree with you, that they hate or don't care for their country, that they hate the President, that they only "claim to support the troops" are old boring bullshit. We don't need it in every thread you participate in. That garbage is freeperland material.

Refer to my above post, OK?

I am not the one disparaging the military and the president and then claiming to "support the troops" or some kind of special brand of patriotism as a result of "questioning our leaders", am I? So my comments are well within the prevue of those types of discussions.

And in this case, I am saying, as usual, in essence "Give the benefit of the doubt to the troops. They are in a very difficult situation, dealing with crazies that wish them only death." However, it seems that most here just see the situation as another "gotcha" against Bush, the US, the West - Pick your poison.

And you are right, it is old. Give up politicizing the military and I'll give up pointing out that you're politicizing the military. Sounds fair, no?
post #57 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Fact 2 Needs amending.

I would initially suggest something like this:



But there's another more serious problem. You see, there is no such thing as al Qaeda.

RIGHT

Forgot about that...
post #58 of 236
Quote:
And in this case, I am saying, as usual, in essence "Give the benefit of the doubt to the troops. They are in a very difficult situation, dealing with crazies that wish them only death." However, it seems that most here just see the situation as another "gotcha" against Bush, the US, the West - Pick your poison.

What does giving them "the benefit of the doubt" mean?

And further, does history bear out that the truth behind military action makes it prudent to give the military "the benefit of the doubt"?

If not, your defense is nothing more than blind flag waving.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #59 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Fact 2 Needs amending.

I would initially suggest something like this:



But there's another more serious problem. You see, there is no such thing as al Qaeda.

Here is a quote from the AQ training manual:

Quote:
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with
an Islamic regime. Other missions consist of the following:

1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3. Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate
people against the enemy.

6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality, and sin; not a vital target.
7. Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the
cities.

You can read it for yourself at: http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm
post #60 of 236
Some more on the tactics of AQ:

Quote:
PRISONS AND DETENTION CENTERS
IF AN INDICTMENT IS ISSUED AND THE TRIAL, BEGINS, THE BROTHER HAS TO PAY
ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING:

1. At the beginning of the trial, once more the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by State Security [investigators] before the judge.
2. Complain [to the court] of mistreatment while in prison.
3. Make arrangements for the brothers defense with the attorney, whether he was retained by the brothers family or court-appointed.
4. The brother has to do his best to know the names of the state security officers, who participated in his torture and mention their names to the judge. [These names may be obtained from brothers who had to deal with those officers in previous cases.]
post #61 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Here is a quote from the AQ training manual:
You can read it for yourself at: http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm

I just took a quick look through that, didn't see "al Qaeda" or anything like it anywhere. Maybe you could point it out?
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #62 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I am not the one disparaging the military and the president and then claiming to "support the troops" or some kind of special brand of patriotism as a result of "questioning our leaders", am I? So my comments are well within the prevue of those types of discussions.

They're not fanatical about the guy like you are. Big difference.
Quote:
However, it seems that most here just see the situation as another "gotcha" against Bush, the US, the West - Pick your poison.

No. That's just your erroneous and misguided interpretation. Get a clue. If you weren't so fanatical about Bush you wouldn't take it, or pretend to take it so personally.
Quote:
And you are right, it is old. Give up politicizing the military and I'll give up pointing out that you're politicizing the military. Sounds fair, no?

Point me to where I politicized the military.

POINT ME TO WHERE -I- POLITICIZED THE MILITARY, or STFU.

By the way, Gen. Myers said that the recent events in Afghanistan, according to the report he got from our troop commander there wasn't caused by the Newsweek article. Care to comment on that?
post #63 of 236
Don't take the bait. He's just trolling as usual, Gilsch.
post #64 of 236
Is the US trying to insult Islam?

We'll start talking about this again instead of fighting like school children, or the thread is locked.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #65 of 236
The insult is in the beholder.

Anything any group does can be offensive to any other group, intentionally or not.

When a group feels oppressed, it will see offense everywhere.

When a group is being vindictive, it will deny/ignore/justify/forgive it's own offenses.

The U.S. and "Islam" can each validly feel mutually oppressed or antagonized by the other.

Since there is no single cause for the trillions of effects in our lives, it's foolish to say one side is right and the other is wrong. You can't trace things back to an individual cause.

We're part of a cohesive, interdependent reality, no one is free from "blame" (or "sin") and yet no one, much less a group, can be blamed more than anyone else.

Bad things happen from the individuals ignoring, supporting, or actively participating in actions that lead to suffering. It is all set in motion at an individual level, but we see it as sets of collective entities, for convention.

There is no U.S. and there is no Islam. Unfortunately people don't see that fact as real.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #66 of 236
Finally, an actual retraction is being issued by Newsweek:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050517/D8A4LSM02.html
post #67 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Finally, an actual retraction is being issued by Newsweek:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050517/D8A4LSM02.html

Fine, let's accept for argument's sake you are right and move on....

In the posts above you will find links to numerous stories of Qur'an desecration and attempts by US military personnel to defame the Islamic religion.

No more mentions of Newsweek: is the US trying to insult Islam ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #68 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Fine, let's accept for argument's sake you are right and move on....

No, the newsweek thing is a huge factor in this whole debate.

The pakastani government feels the same way:

http://reuters.myway.com/article/200...-KORAN-DC.html

"The apology and retraction are not enough," Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told Reuters.

"They should understand the sentiments of Muslims and think 101 times before publishing news which hurt feelings of Muslims."

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
In the posts above you will find links to numerous stories of Qur'an desecration and attempts by US military personnel to defame the Islamic religion.

Once again, accusations. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should dismiss the accusations wholesale, just be very clear they are accusations. At the very same time we should keep in mind that AQ and those affiliated have vowed to lie about abuses to bolster the anti-US/Bush/West cause.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No more mentions of Newsweek: is the US trying to insult Islam ?

I think the real question should be: Is the US media trying to make you think the US is trying to insult Islam?
post #69 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I think the real question should be: Is the US media trying to make you think the US is trying to insult Islam?

No, and there's certainly nothing in this story to suggest it. Of course, since the facts don't line up with your trolling you've conveniently ignored them and kept going.
post #70 of 236
I think everyone coiuld be missing a very important point here: that this was an exercise in power. Islam at large has the ability to shift policy in the U.S. just by rioting in foreign countries; don't run afoul of Islam, it has the power to make things unpleasant.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #71 of 236
Looks like there's some eyewitnesses to the desecrations coming forward now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #72 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Looks like there's some eyewitnesses to the desecrations coming forward now.

There are more than enough of those...but since they have "funny" last names and aren't mentioned in the winger blogs they don't count. Besides, the winger attack machine is too busy demonizing a magazine to look at facts.

McClellan politicized the deaths the other day by blaming Newsweek for them. Of course he conveniently ignored the Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff Gen. Myers declaring that the recent events in Afghanistan, according to the report he got from our troops commander there, weren't caused by the Newsweek article.

As you can see, the usual suspects won't address Gen. Myers comments.
Quote:
However, Myers said an after-action report provided by U.S. Army Lieutenant General Karl Eikenberry, commander of the Combined Forces in Afghanistan, indicated that the political violence was not, in fact, connected to the magazine report.
post #73 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Looks like there's some eyewitnesses to the desecrations coming forward now.

In the art of fairness, these individuals currently have a lawsuit against the US for 10s of millions each.

And the claims cannot be confirmed by investigators:

http://stage-radio.ksl.com/index.php?nid=102&sid=205555

"Current and former detainees have been alleging for more than a year that American soldiers in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have desecrated the Koran -- but none of the allegations has been substantiated by military investigators.

The claims are made in some of the 65 lawsuits that have been filed in U.S. District Court in Washington on behalf of nearly 180 detainees, as well as in accounts given to human rights workers.

For instance, a lawsuit filed this year in Illinois by the American Civil Liberties Union against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld recounts a claim by a detainee in Iraq who says soldiers allowed a military dog to carry the Islamic holy book in the animal's mouth.

Another lawsuit filed in Washington in January on behalf of 12 Kuwaiti detainees held at Guantanamo Bay alleges that American soldiers tore up the Koran and threw pages into toilets as part of a humiliation tactic.

There have been no publicized disciplinary actions taken by the military against soldiers for mishandling the Koran. A Pentagon list of 10 misconduct cases at Guantanamo Bay shows that none involved disrespect of the Koran by soldiers."
post #74 of 236
Personally, I grew up in america and it's clear to me that, regardless of the current controversy, you'd have to be pretty dumb to think that american interrogators wouldn't desecrate a koran when trying to antagonize muslim detainees.
post #75 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
There are more than enough of those...but since they have "funny" last names and aren't mentioned in the winger blogs they don't count. Besides, the winger attack machine is too busy demonizing a magazine to look at facts.

McClellan politicized the deaths the other day by blaming Newsweek for them. Of course he conveniently ignored the Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff Gen. Myers declaring that the recent events in Afghanistan, according to the report he got from our troops commander there, weren't caused by the Newsweek article.

As you can see, the usual suspects won't address Gen. Myers comments.

Gilshy baby, no-one is avoiding you. It's just that General Myers was addressing Afghanistan only. Plus, he is one guy. And he was saying that it could have been a factor, although not the overriding one. There is a lot more going on over there than Newsweek's crappy reporting.

Now I realize that you think that article, makes your position stronger, however there is a paragraph that jumped out to me:

"Craddock and his team have examined the prisoner interrogation logs and Myers said they cannot confirm yet that there ever was a case of a U.S. interrogator flushing a Quran down the toilet."

AND THEN THERE'S THIS:

"He did say there is another unconfirmed log reference to a guard report that a detainee tore pages from the Quran and flushed them in an attempt to flood the holding area as a form of protest."

Is it OK for a Muslim to flush the Quran?

To further disprove what you are trying to claim here is a story from the 11th from the AP:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050...han_us_qur__an

"The source of anger was a brief report in the May 9 edition of Newsweek that interrogators at Guantanamo placed Qur'ans on toilets to rattle suspects, and in at least one case "flushed a holy book down the toilet."

Pentagon spokesman Lt.-Cmdr. Flex Plexico said the U.S. military was investigating. "This allegation is contrary to our respect for cultural customs and fundamental belief in the freedom of religion," Plexico said.

The protests may spread into neighbouring Pakistan, where a coalition of hardline Islamic parties said it would hold countrywide demonstrations Friday."

Another Story from the 11th:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/...8?OpenDocument

"At least five people have been killed and dozens injured in Afghanistan after security forces clashed with thousands of protesters angry about a magazine report of alleged abuse of the Koran at the U.S. jail in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The State Department said Tuesday such abuse would be reprehensible and contrary to U.S. policy."

And then there's this from the Day it all started:

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qnd...get=afghan.htm

"May 10, 2005: Anti-American rioting broke out in Jalalabad, when local Islamic radicals became aware of a story in an American newsmagazine, accusing U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay prison, of flushing pages of the Koran down a toilet as a way to intimidate Afghan prisoners, and get them to reveal information about Taliban or al Qaeda operations. Jalalabad is a pro-Taliban town, and many locals are still upset that the Taliban is no longer running the country."

Perhaps the General is wrong.
post #76 of 236
Um..... what ever happened to the great conservative shibboleth "personal responsibility"?

When liberals ask that we seek to find the roots of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, they are vilified as "appeasers" and "blame America first" collaborationists. We are instructed to bear in mind that terrorists are responsible for terrorism, and that to look to any causal relationship between American foreign policy and Islamic blow-back is tantamount to endorsing al Qaeda and its rationales.

Yet given an opportunity for a right wing attack on the so-called liberal media, all that is apparently out the window. Newsweek "made" them riot, thru the agency of its terribly irresponsible misstatement. There is no rallying around "our" media in the face of "their" violence.

Instead, we get the usual "something must be done" rumblings.

Get rid of anonymous sourcing, which conveniently gets rid of most of the "insider" info on government malfeasance.

Control the press, cause they're so out of control. Not sure about that? Here's another instance for you, cherry picked from a vast selection of items.

This kind of outcry is never about a "responsible press". If it were, we'd be getting firestorms engendered by the numerous, ongoing, flat out lies that routinely get propagated through the right wing media. Instead, it's only the "liberal" press that comes in for a shellacking. It's only the right-wing blogs that get to push a story into the mainstream (when was the last time you saw one of the daily outrages chronicled by a site like Media Matters become a big story?).

It's about the ongoing establishment of a national press that knows what it's for: celebrity romance stories and carefully vetted encomia about how cool America is, how cool our leaders are, how life has never been better, and how the despicable enemy, both foreign and domestic, is being rooted out even as you read this.

Naples, you deserve to live in the country you apparently are pining for, I just wish it could be on an island somewhere so the rest of us could have a shot at enjoying life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #77 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Is it OK for a Muslim to flush the Quran?

Theologically, it was established centuries ago that (in your terms) it is ok whether it is a Muslim or not.

I am over-simplifying and stating things in their most basic simplistic and reductionist terms for your sake but basically: yes. If you want the theological explanation and juridical references let me know.

BUT all that is not the point. Again, the question we are addressing and the title of this thread is: Is the US trying to insult Islam ?

My subsidary question is not about the lawfulness of the action (that is established as I say) but about the wisdom (or stupidity) of the US doing it when they are supposed to be making their mission easier not more difficult.

It seems to smack of desperation to me and slight panic. Possibly evidence that the situation on the ground is far worse than we can imagine.

Certainly it strongly implies that all other interrogatory techniques are failing and this is a 'scraping of the bottom of the barrel'. Possibly the failure is due to them having innocent people in the prison who cannot give correct info.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #78 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Theologically, it was established centuries ago that (in your terms) it is ok whether it is a Muslim or not.

I am over-simplifying and stating things in their most basic simplistic and reductionist terms for your sake but basically: yes. If you want the theological explanation and juridical references let me know.

BUT all that is not the point. Again, the question we are addressing and the title of this thread is: Is the US trying to insult Islam ?

My subsidary question is not about the lawfulness of the action (that is established as I say) but about the wisdom (or stupidity) of the US doing it when they are supposed to be making their mission easier not more difficult.

It seems to smack of desperation to me and slight panic. Possibly evidence that the situation on the ground is far worse than we can imagine.

Certainly it strongly implies that all other interrogatory techniques are failing and this is a 'scraping of the bottom of the barrel'. Possibly the failure is due to them having innocent people in the prison who cannot give correct info.

The Quran flushings never took place. So how can the US insult Islam with something that was fabricated by a lazy reporter?

This whole this is ridiculous, and I could care less if Islam is insulted. Islam should be insulted by it's members that have hijacked their supposed "religion of peace". They don't seem to be. In fact, they seem to be slowly adopting the "blame the US" philosophy of their radical brethren. Hey, and why not? Half of the US population and the majority of the US Press has already adopted it!
post #79 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
So how can the US insult Islam with something that was fabricated by a lazy reporter?

What is wrong with you?
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
from your link:
Quote:
The weekly news magazine said in its May 23 edition that the information had come from a "knowledgeable government source" who told Newsweek that a military report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay said interrogators flushed at least one copy of the Koran down a toilet in a bid to make detainees talk.

But Newsweek said the source later told the magazine he could not be certain he had seen an account of the Koran incident in the military report and that it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts.

They reported what they were told by a "knowledgeable government source" who later retracted his story after the shitstorm.

Don't you realize that is only hurts you to lie over and over and over again?
post #80 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Um..... what ever happened to the great conservative shibboleth "personal responsibility"?

When liberals ask that we seek to find the roots of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, they are vilified as "appeasers" and "blame America first" collaborationists. We are instructed to bear in mind that terrorists are responsible for terrorism, and that to look to any causal relationship between American foreign policy and Islamic blow-back is tantamount to endorsing al Qaeda and its rationales.

Yet given an opportunity for a right wing attack on the so-called liberal media, all that is apparently out the window. Newsweek "made" them riot, thru the agency of its terribly irresponsible misstatement. There is no rallying around "our" media in the face of "their" violence.

Instead, we get the usual "something must be done" rumblings.

Get rid of anonymous sourcing, which conveniently gets rid of most of the "insider" info on government malfeasance.

Control the press, cause they're so out of control. Not sure about that? Here's another instance for you, cherry picked from a vast selection of items.

This kind of outcry is never about a "responsible press". If it were, we'd be getting firestorms engendered by the numerous, ongoing, flat out lies that routinely get propagated through the right wing media. Instead, it's only the "liberal" press that comes in for a shellacking. It's only the right-wing blogs that get to push a story into the mainstream (when was the last time you saw one of the daily outrages chronicled by a site like Media Matters become a big story?).

It's about the ongoing establishment of a national press that knows what it's for: celebrity romance stories and carefully vetted encomia about how cool America is, how cool our leaders are, how life has never been better, and how the despicable enemy, both foreign and domestic, is being rooted out even as you read this.

Naples, you deserve to live in the country you apparently are pining for, I just wish it could be on an island somewhere so the rest of us could have a shot at enjoying life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You have a great imagination, because I don't recall anyone saying or even eluding to anything you contend in that mud puddle you called a post.

I am calling for you lefties to be fair and balanced with your condemnations. You condemn Bush for lying and making things up, and yet you let the press slide again and again, when it does the same thing. It will get more and more difficult to say "everyone's entitled to a mistake now and then", since major incidents seem to be the result of the media's bloodlust for Bush.

As far as these riots go, I think I have made my feeling clear about them. If not, here goes, so pay attention:

Those people are troublemakers and thugs. They took advantage of a situation to spread mayhem. They are responsible for their actions.

And hey, you want to look at the correlation between US foreign policy and Islamic blow-back, be my guest. All I ask is that you also look at the correlation between the anti-US reporting and Islamic blow-back.

The press is not a fair place. politically. It is like 7 or 8 to 1 ratio, left to right. It will be a long time till those numbers reflect "fairness" in numerical terms. I would ask the press just report the news and let me decide how it fits into my understanding of the world. With the contentiousness of politics today, I would think that everyone would want unbiased news. Why do we have to read the news and then compensate for the organization's political leanings as to how truthful or credible it is?

Anonymous sources are ridiculous anymore. As far as we know, the standard for anonymous source could be the little voice in some reporter's head, or his contact at the DNC's talking point department. Have you ever wondered why almost every story that comes down the pike, has these mysterious "anonymous" sources? It has gotten to the point it is a joke, much like your last two paragraphs.

You see, I want the press to tell me the news, that's it. I don't want them painting a picture of bliss, as you contend I want, nor a constant barrage of "Bush is evil. Report at 10", like we seem to get now. Just report the news, leave the politicking to the politicians.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Is the US trying to insult Islam?