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Dean the Disaster - Page 2

post #41 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I don´t think so. Not the ideology driven one.

I guess that I am a communist, then. heh.
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post #42 of 263
Thread Starter 
I thought in light of Dean's recent proclamation that "Republicans are a monolithic party...they all look the same...it's pretty much a white christian party", I'd resurrect this thread rather than start a new one.

I think Dean continues to really hurt his party at a time when there are some openings for it to grow. Bush's agenda isn't currently going well, and they seem to have squeaked out a political victory on the filibuster...at least according to the polls.

It now seems that Dean is going to have a serious negative impact on the Dems fund raising. That is a serious problem for 2006. Money matters can be made up for, but not when the Republicans outspend the Dems 5 to 1, or something along those lines.
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post #43 of 263
You are a white christian, and a member of the Republican party... So are most members of the republican party. There is no denying that.

The same can be said of most democrats though...

In other words, he is right, but not precise in his language use.
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post #44 of 263
I think your view of Dean's rhetoric depends on your theory of electoral politics. There are a lot of Democrats who believe we've tried too often to suck up to the center, when we should be doing what the GOP has done - appeal to the base.

[edit]It is basically true about the GOP being the white party. The GOP wins only among white males. Dems win among every other group, and I believe the parties about about tied on white women.
post #45 of 263
What hurts the Democrats is no idea's and the same garbage they have been pushing for years. Old ideas paid for by Special Interests vs the Republicans old idea's painted red white and blue and paid for by Special Interests. Now which would you vote for?
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post #46 of 263
Republicans are the KINGS of misinformation and guys like SDW and the media are their minions:

In recent days, media figures have repeated the baseless claim that Democratic National Committee (DNC) chairman Howard Dean is not an effective fund-raiser. These claims echo an assertion in a June 6 BusinessWeek article that misleadingly compared DNC fund-raising with money that the Republican National Committee (RNC) has raised this year. But a more relevant metric of fund-raising by the Dean-led DNC -- a comparison of this year's receipts with receipts in 2003 and 2001, the most recent election off-years -- proves that Dean's fund-raising efforts have surpassed those of his predecessor.

Quote:
CNN host Lou Dobbs referred to "the slow pace of [Dean's] fund-raising for the Democrats." [CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, 6/6/05]

Fox News reporter Kelly Wright cited a June 4 report by the right-wing news website NewsMax.com that "Howard Dean may be out at the DNC" due to "a woeful job of fund-raising for the party." [Fox News' Fox & Friends, 6/6/05]

MSNBC host Monica Crowley asserted that "when the Democrats chose Howard Dean to be the leader of their party, they thought he'd energize the base, they thought he would raise a lot of money. And in fact, he's done neither." She later said: "According to the Federal Election Commission, the DNC raised $14.1 million in the first quarter of this year versus the Republican National Committee's $32.3 million bucks. Bottom line here: under Dean's tutelage the Republicans have $26.2 million in the bank versus a paltry $7.2 million for the Democrats. If he can't raise money, which is essentially why he was hired, can he survive much longer?" [MSNBC's Connected: Coast-to-Coast, 6/7/05]

In fact, Dean raised $14.8 million between February and April 2005 (the latest data available), compared with the DNC's $8.5 million during that period in 2003, the previous non-election year, and compared with the DNC's $13.7 million in so-called "hard money" raised in the first six months of 2001. (It should be noted that since 2001, the contribution limits to national parties have increased as a result of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act.)

Moreover, the DNC has raised more in comparison to the RNC over the past three months than it did during 2003. The RNC raised $32.4 million between February and April, about 2.2 times the rate of the Democrats, as Media Matters for America noted; over the same period in 2003, the RNC raised $25.7 million, more than three times the rate of the DNC. Media Matters compiled statistics from February through April, rather than the first-quarter statistics that BusinessWeek used, because Dean did not assume leadership of the DNC until February 12.

In addition, Crowley's comparison of the parties' cash-on-hand totals distorted the current state of Democratic party finances. She failed to note that the "$7.2 million for the Democrats" is nearly double the $3.9 million the DNC had on hand at the end of the first quarter of 2003.

Both Crowley and NBC News correspondent Andrea Mitchell also misleadingly reported that large contributions to the DNC are on the decline as the result of Dean's leadership. On the May 6 edition of NBC Nightly News, Mitchell stated, "Big contributions are way down, even for a non-election year." On the May 7 edition of MSNBC's Connected: Coast to Coast, Crowley repeated the claim in a report on Dean's chairmanship. "Big contributions are down," she stated. "Way down." But Crowley and Mitchell's focus only on big donors falsely suggests that overall Democratic fund-raising has declined.
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post #47 of 263
From Salon:

Despite the polemics that were sure to follow Dean's assuming the role of party chairman, his primary duty is to raise money. Though the Republican National Committee has raised money at a rate of 2-to-1 on Democrats in the first quarter of 2005, Dean himself has been effective. In the first four months, under Dean's stewardship, the DNC has raised nearly $19 million -- more than under any other Democratic chairman in an off-election year.

But hey, believe what you want to believe. You're going to anyway.
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post #48 of 263
Its about idea's not Money. Money helps but all the money in the world is going to do little if you have no idea's and run by simply being the opposite while the other guy sets the agenda. Democrats need idea's for this country and its people.Not old special interest spin. Republicans have done a great job as representing Mom,ApplePie and Chevrolet. Its why the Demo's got edged out. Both parties have done a wonderful job selling out their country.
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post #49 of 263
On the white Christian thing, here's a good exit poll.

It shows that Bush wins among whites, Kerry wins among every other group. The most interesting religion one was this:

White evangelical/born again (23% of the population)
Bush: 78, Kerry: 21

Everyone else (77% of the population)
Bush: 43, Kerry 56


That's really stunning to me. Bush crushes Kerry among this relatively small percentage of the population, and although Kerry wins everyone else, he still loses the election. It shows how important that group is to Republicans.

So I would amend Dean's statement - it's not just white Christians, it's white evangelical/born again Christians.
post #50 of 263
As an outsider to American politics, I'm confused by Dean's tactics.

If the Democrats win every group except white male Christians - and still lose elections, how does proclaiming the Republicans "the party of white male Christians" help the Democrats?

Shouldn't the party chairman be trying to get the votes they don't have to cross over?
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post #51 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
As an outsider to American politics, I'm confused by Dean's tactics.

If the Democrats win every group except white male Christians - and still lose elections, how does proclaiming the Republicans "the party of white male Christians" help the Democrats?

Shouldn't the party chairman be trying to get the votes they don't have to cross over?

That's exactly right. That's why he's bad for the party.
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post #52 of 263
Except that you have to remember, half of the country doesn't vote. The "energize your base" theory is that it's easier to go after that huge number of people than the tiny group of undecided voters who could go either way. I'm not sure I agree with it, but that's the theory, and it's probably true that Dems haven't really tried it, while Repubs have often succeeded with it.
post #53 of 263
In order to get your message out you need MONEY to do it.

This is the basics guys. But somehow I think you know that.

BTW - this thread was started by SDW to illustrate that Dean was a disaster because of his money raising abilities. Now that it's been proven false, now it's "Dean's a disaster because of [enter convenient misinformation here)."
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post #54 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Except that you have to remember, half of the country doesn't vote. The "energize your base" theory is that it's easier to go after that huge number of people than the tiny group of undecided voters who could go either way. I'm not sure I agree with it, but that's the theory, and it's probably true that Dems haven't really tried it, while Repubs have often succeeded with it.

Bingo.

But that doesn't fit into the RNC's neat little character assasination campaigns, does it?
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post #55 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think your view of Dean's rhetoric depends on your theory of electoral politics. There are a lot of Democrats who believe we've tried too often to suck up to the center, when we should be doing what the GOP has done - appeal to the base.

[edit]It is basically true about the GOP being the white party. The GOP wins only among white males. Dems win among every other group, and I believe the parties about about tied on white women.

The trends are changing though. Hispanic support is growing quickly, and I see a time where African Americans begin to break ranks with Democrats. It will take a long time, but I think the wheels have been set in motion, often because of guys like Dean.

Northgate:


Media Matters? Come on, Northgate. You should really try harder than that. Or rather, you should make me try harder than that.

We're not talking about year to year comaprisons. That is utterly meaningless. The Republicans are raising significantly more than the Dems are. That's very bad for the Dems. Nothing you can say will change that fact.


Quote:
BTW - this thread was started by SDW to illustrate that Dean was a disaster because of his money raising abilities. Now that it's been proven false, now it's "Dean's a disaster because of [enter convenient misinformation here)."


It really is like you're in some sort of denial. Dean is alienating even the leftists of the party. The moderates jumped ship long ago. He's not raising the cash he needs to, and is making comments that Republicans are going to beaat the Dems to death with. I cannot understand wh a good Democrat like yourself is not standing up and SCREAMING that you want your party back.
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post #56 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
On the white Christian thing, here's a good exit poll.

It shows that Bush wins among whites, Kerry wins among every other group. The most interesting religion one was this:

White evangelical/born again (23% of the population)
Bush: 78, Kerry: 21

Everyone else (77% of the population)
Bush: 43, Kerry 56


That's really stunning to me. Bush crushes Kerry among this relatively small percentage of the population, and although Kerry wins everyone else, he still loses the election. It shows how important that group is to Republicans.

So I would amend Dean's statement - it's not just white Christians, it's white evangelical/born again Christians.

I would have to ask what their definition of evangelical/born again means. They didn't use it in 2000 and it somehow nets 23% of the entire population. Evangelical is often associated with protestantism yet I don't see any other religious numbers in that exit survey that would point to that group or trend in any other way.

Aside from that, here is the problem and it shows why Dean is shooting the Dems in the foot. The Democratic Party has clearly captured the black vote for example. Even though Bush made gains there Kerry still took something like 89% of the vote. You would not see the RNC chairman making statements though that would attempt to alienate that block of voters and make it sound like they would not be welcome in the Republican party.

That is what Dean has done with anyone who is white and Christian. He has associated anyone who meets those two criteria with racism and hate.

That group also includes Catholics for example whom Kerry couldn't win while being a Catholic himself and it being well known that American Catholics are not nearly so orthodox as in other countries. In the same exit poll, Kerry only captured 1% more of Catholics who don't even attend church in any regular fashion.

I personally think that the Democrats will not be able to reconcile this problem. You have two many people in the party who hear the word church and instantly start associating anyone with a "theocracy" just for believing in God.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #57 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I would have to ask what their definition of evangelical/born again means. They didn't use it in 2000 and it somehow nets 23% of the entire population. Evangelical is often associated with protestantism yet I don't see any other religious numbers in that exit survey that would point to that group or trend in any other way.

It must be just self-identified.

Quote:
Aside from that, here is the problem and it shows why Dean is shooting the Dems in the foot. The Democratic Party has clearly captured the black vote for example. Even though Bush made gains there Kerry still took something like 89% of the vote. You would not see the RNC chairman making statements though that would attempt to alienate that block of voters and make it sound like they would not be welcome in the Republican party.

That is what Dean has done with anyone who is white and Christian. He has associated anyone who meets those two criteria with racism and hate.

Racism and hate? I don't know exactly what comment by Dean you're referring to, but this is SDW's quote:
Quote:
"Republicans are a monolithic party...they all look the same...it's pretty much a white christian party"

I don't see any accusations of racism and hate there. Maybe you just have a guilty conscience?


Quote:
I personally think that the Democrats will not be able to reconcile this problem. You have two many people in the party who hear the word church and instantly start associating anyone with a "theocracy" just for believing in God.

I agree. I think instead liberals should talk about 1) the liberal religious perspective, which IMO is much more consistent with the fundamentals of Christianity anyway, and 2) the idea that the separation of church and state is good for both state and church.
post #58 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It must be just self-identified.

Perhaps, but it takes two words that are not synonyms for each other and puts them together. It would be akin to having a new category called African-American/Black Panther. Perhaps it shows some CNN-biased reasoning.

Quote:
Racism and hate? I don't know exactly what comment by Dean you're referring to, but this is SDW's quote:

I don't see any accusations of racism and hate there. Maybe you just have a guilty conscience?

Sorry, I listened to the audio of that entire section of the speech and was drawing my conclusions from that as well. Dean talks at length about how not only are those attributes true, but there are reasons and motivations as to those outcomes.

You are welcome to find the audio and see if you come to a different conclusion.

Quote:
I agree. I think instead liberals should talk about 1) the liberal religious perspective, which IMO is much more consistent with the fundamentals of Christianity anyway, and 2) the idea that the separation of church and state is good for both state and church.

I would welcome discussion of the liberal religious perspective in the public realm. However the seperation of church and state goes well beyond this in many instances. It is one thing to say, "please do not demand that students pray" and quite another to say, "you cannot tell me that your belief that murder is wrong is acceptable because it is Biblically based." Additionally while one might be white, male, protestant, rich and college educated, only one of those attributes are being demanded left at the door when public discourse is occuring and that isn't proper. It is fine to claim one shouldn't impose a religion. It is quite another to say that since my belief about murder is religiously based, that I cannot impose or attempt to have created a law regarding murder.

Law can have a historical and religious aspect and people can find and be motivated to promote their beliefs due to religious desires. What has happened right now is that people be they the minority or majority are being told that they do not have a right to determine law or participate in public discourse because the basis for their beliefs might be religious.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #59 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It must be just self-identified.

Racism and hate? I don't know exactly what comment by Dean you're referring to, but this is SDW's quote:
I don't see any accusations of racism and hate there. Maybe you just have a guilty conscience?


I agree. I think instead liberals should talk about 1) the liberal religious perspective, which IMO is much more consistent with the fundamentals of Christianity anyway, and 2) the idea that the separation of church and state is good for both state and church.


How about this comment:


Quote:
He surveys the crowd of 150 crammed into the room. "You think the RNC could get this many people of color into a single room?" he marvels. "Maybe if they got the hotel staff in there."

Racist.
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post #60 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Perhaps, but it takes two words that are not synonyms for each other and puts them together. It would be akin to having a new category called African-American/Black Panther. Perhaps it shows some CNN-biased reasoning.

What is the difference between evangelical and born again? I really don't know.
post #61 of 263
It's not racism to point out racism.

Oh, there's no racism in the republican party you say?
Quote:
The highest ranking African-American in the California Republican Party on Tuesday condemned the racism he has endured working for the GOP...

"As a Bush delegate at the 2000 convention in Philadelphia, I proudly wore my delegate's badge and (Republican National Committee) lapel pin as I worked the convention. Regardless of the fact that I was obviously a delegate prominently displaying my credentials, no less than six times did white delegates dismissively tell me (to) fetch them a taxi or carry their luggage."

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/4898492.htm

Which way do african americans vote, btw? Overwhelmingly not republican.
post #62 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
How about this comment:

That's pretty idiotic. But again, a lot of Democrats think we have been pussy-footing with conservatives for too long, and they'll love the idea of a Democrat who says what he thinks. Sure, the media and Republicans will bash away, but that'll just make party Democrats support him even more.

Anyway, he'll be the perfect foil to the moderate, religious Hillary Clinton in 2008.
post #63 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's not racism to point out racism.

Oh, there's no racism in the republican party you say?

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/4898492.htm

Which way do african americans vote, btw? Overwhelmingly not republican.

I think I would rather be told to hail a cab than have my confirmation held up for two years even while having impeccable credentials. The way Democrats have treated Bush confirmation hearings is the height of racism in my book because it is clear that they fear not having any black that isn't a "house slave" to Democratic party dogma be in a position of power.

Which party featured Dixiecrats? Has a former Klansman for an elder Senator? Ran the son of the Senator who helped filibuster the Civil Rights Act for President? Etc..etc..

Also how do six individuals make up the entire Republican Party and their sins of omission make the entire Republican party racist?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #64 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001 Media Matters? Come on, Northgate. You should really try harder than that. Or rather, you should make me try harder than that.

Yes. Media Matters. Facts are facts, regardless if you like the source. Are they a partisan debunker? You bet your ass they are. And I applaud their efforts to sort through the Republican bullshit thats spewed on a daily basis.

Quote:
We're not talking about year to year comaprisons. That is utterly meaningless. The Republicans are raising significantly more than the Dems are. That's very bad for the Dems. Nothing you can say will change that fact.

Actually, nothing will change the FACT that Dean has raised more money since taking office than his predecessors. Republicans have ALWAYS raised more money than the Dems. So what's new here? That Dean isn't raising more money than the GOP or that he's a disaster because he's raised more than his predecessors?

Quote:
Dean is alienating even the leftists of the party.

Really. Who? Specifically.

Quote:
The moderates jumped ship long ago.

Again, more unsupported generalizations. Which moderates have jumped ship other than Zell Miller? And if they left "long ago" that would pre-Dean as chair. So it wouldn't be because of him would it -- if in fact they are "jumping ship"?

Quote:
He's not raising the cash he needs to, and is making comments that Republicans are going to beaat the Dems to death with.

He IS raising the cash he needs. I already provided you with the factual evidence. You simply choose to ignore it because you don't like the source. Your stubborness is very telling here.

Quote:
I cannot understand wh a good Democrat like yourself is not standing up and SCREAMING that you want your party back. [/B]

I am screaming. THAT'S WHY I SUPPORTED DEAN as both president and as the chair. Specifically to give this party so goddam BALLS again.

I am curious if you have forgotten your own party's recent past? Specifically between the years 1992 and 2000 when fire breathing rhetoric, hardball tactics, scare tactics, and bogus moral outrage were used exhaustively to bring down an American president...one of the most anti-American activities to take place in the last 30 years. I will admit that those tactics brought your party back from near extinction to complete control of federal government.

So I say if you can't beat 'em...
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post #65 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's not racism to point out racism.

Oh, there's no racism in the republican party you say?

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/4898492.htm

Which way do african americans vote, btw? Overwhelmingly not republican.


Your strawman argument aside, let me spell it out for you:

DEAN IMPLIED THAT THE HOTEL STAFF WAS ALL BLACK. HE MADE A RACIST ASSUMPTION IN "POINTING OUT RACISM."

But you'll give him a free pass. Of course you will.
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post #66 of 263
Quote:
DEAN IMPLIED THAT THE HOTEL STAFF WAS ALL BLACK.

No he didn't. He implied that it had a greater ethnic diversity than the republican party, which is probably true.
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post #67 of 263
Thread Starter 
Northgate:

Quote:
Yes. Media Matters. Facts are facts, regardless if you like the source. Are they a partisan debunker? You bet your ass they are. And I applaud their efforts to sort through the Republican bullshit thats spewed on a daily basis.

You linking to media matters is like me linking to Rush Limbaugh.


Quote:
Actually, nothing will change the FACT that Dean has raised more money since taking office than his predecessors. Republicans have ALWAYS raised more money than the Dems. So what's new here? That Dean isn't raising more money than the GOP or that he's a disaster because he's raised more than his predecessors?

The Republicans are raising money TWICE as fast. And, I noticed that you only will compare non-election years. The DNC nearly matched Republicans in 2004. YOu also ignored that Dean brought in 20,000 new donors...versus 68,000 for the Republicans. You're telling me you don't see a problem for "Dean the Populist"?


Quote:
Really. Who? Specifically.

Don't ask questions you don't already know the answers to:

Pelosi, Kennedy, Frank, Biden, Kerry. Some more are more left than others. They've nearly all said something publicly about not liking Dean's anti-GOP rhetoric.


Quote:
Again, more unsupported generalizations. Which moderates have jumped ship other than Zell Miller? And if they left "long ago" that would pre-Dean as chair. So it wouldn't be because of him would it -- if in fact they are "jumping ship"?

Governor Bill Richardson. John Edwards. Joe Libermann. I can keep going if you'd like.





Quote:
He IS raising the cash he needs. I already provided you with the factual evidence. You simply choose to ignore it because you don't like the source. Your stubborness is very telling here.

You're a true believer, I'll give you that. I suppose we'll find out in 2006.



Quote:
I am screaming. THAT'S WHY I SUPPORTED DEAN as both president and as the chair. Specifically to give this party so goddam BALLS again.


Give me one example of a Republican that has used the kind of personal "hatriol" that Dean and the Dems have. Show me comparable statements about Democrats. Show me where a Republican called a democrat a "loser" or "brain dead".
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post #68 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Give me one example of a Republican that has used the kind of personal "hatriol" that Dean and the Dems have. Show me comparable statements about Democrats. Show me where a Republican called a democrat a "loser" or "brain dead".

Oh man, you're leaving the door so far open on that one. I agree that Dean has said some bad stuff, but don't be under the illusion that Republicans don't do it. Just for comparison, I remembered this piece by a conservative columnist in the NY Post. It's an extended comparison of Dean supporters to Hitler's Brownshirts, the Gestapo, Goebbels, Reifenstahl, and so on. It's a cornucopia of Godwin violations.

But we could go on forever with people like that and Limbaugh and Coulter, every single day calling Democrats traitors and such. Even if we just stick to prominent national Republican politicians, it's easy to come up with statements like Santorum comparing Democrats to Hitler.
post #69 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Oh man, you're leaving the door so far open on that one. I agree that Dean has said some bad stuff, but don't be under the illusion that Republicans don't do it. Just for comparison, I remembered this piece by a conservative columnist in the NY Post. It's an extended comparison of Dean supporters to Hitler's Brownshirts, the Gestapo, Goebbels, Reifenstahl, and so on. It's a cornucopia of Godwin violations.

But we could go on forever with people like that and Limbaugh and Coulter, every single day calling Democrats traitors and such. Even if we just stick to prominent national Republican politicians, it's easy to come up with statements like Santorum comparing Democrats to Hitler.

You do have a point BRussell, however I would add that none of your examples are leadership within the Republican party. I mean sure Limbaugh, Franken, Coulter, Maher and others strike a tone that can be viewed as a very hard sarcasm and not appropriate for "official" political discourse. I've stated before that all these individuals straddle a line between politics and entertainment. They all sometimes get burned by both sides and likely would not have been able to continue in elected office if that was what they held. Rush obviously was slammed for drug use. Maher can't be slammed for it because he pushes and eludes to marijuana use in almost every show. However he was knocked off ABC for his lobbing bombs comment, etc.

The Santorum comment, and perhaps you read this different than me, looks to be expresssing disgust at those who were comparing the filibuster rule change to a Nazi invasion. It seems he was reflecting their language back at them and saying, don't say we are Nazi's.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #70 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Oh man, you're leaving the door so far open on that one. I agree that Dean has said some bad stuff, but don't be under the illusion that Republicans don't do it. Just for comparison, I remembered this piece by a conservative columnist in the NY Post. It's an extended comparison of Dean supporters to Hitler's Brownshirts, the Gestapo, Goebbels, Reifenstahl, and so on. It's a cornucopia of Godwin violations.

But we could go on forever with people like that and Limbaugh and Coulter, every single day calling Democrats traitors and such. Even if we just stick to prominent national Republican politicians, it's easy to come up with statements like Santorum comparing Democrats to Hitler.


No. I'm not talking about columnists. That is not who I mean. I'm talking about the republican leadership and high profile politicians.

As for Santorum, let me begin by saying I don't like him and his analogy was stupid. That being said, go back and read the analogy. He wasn't comparing Democrats to Hitler for his brutality, dictatorial rule or slaughtering jews...he was saying that the Dems started the war and were acting like they hadn't.

Edit: Besides, he wasn't being personal. What we have is people like Harry Reid, the Senate Minority Leader, calling the POTUS "a loser". Show me parity on the other side of the aisle for comments like that.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #71 of 263
The only reason I used that example from the NY Post columnist is that it was probably the lengthiest comparison of someone to Hitler that I'd ever seen, and the irony is that it was done to Howard Dean.

If you're looking for examples of personal comments from the Republican Congressional leadership about a Democratic President, it's easy to find stuff that was said about Clinton. How about Gingrich calling Clinton "the enemy of normal people?" Or what about Chair of the Senate Foreign Relation Committee, Jesse Helms, saying that Clinton better watch out and use a bodyguard if he came to North Carolina?
post #72 of 263
Damn, it freaks me out that the conservatives are so scared of Dean. This was all over the screaming head shows last night, with the conservative pundits crying foul all over the place.

I just wanted the liberal pundits to pooch out their lips and say "Awwwww! It's sooo sad! Poor widdle wepublicans! So oppwessed! Awwww!!! We pwomise to take is easy on you because you're so good at cwying!!"

Saxby Chambliss v Max Cleland in Georgia. George Bush v John McCain in SC.

I swear to God. Dean is certainly not the most diplomatic man on earth, but he's hitting back and he's hitting hard and I like it. Democrats will never, EVER win anything at the national level again unless they grow a friggin' spine.

That's what's got the conservatives so scared: the possiblity of an end to spinelessness.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #73 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
The only reason I used that example from the NY Post columnist is that it was probably the lengthiest comparison of someone to Hitler that I'd ever seen, and the irony is that it was done to Howard Dean.

If you're looking for examples of personal comments from the Republican Congressional leadership about a Democratic President, it's easy to find stuff that was said about Clinton. How about Gingrich calling Clinton "the enemy of normal people?" Or what about Chair of the Senate Foreign Relation Committee, Jesse Helms, saying that Clinton better watch out and use a bodyguard if he came to North Carolina?

Your points are quite valid and the thing to do is look at Gingrich and Helms and see what sort of long term gains or influence they were rewarded with as a result of such language. Gingrich was quite the bomb thrower but he became so polarizing that the party kept his ideals and tossed him rather than put up with the rhetoric.

Helms was actually mourned a bit in retiring by those who oppose him. He made fundraising so easy. Just slap a few quotes on a card and watch the cash roll in.

Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Damn, it freaks me out that the conservatives are so scared of Dean. This was all over the screaming head shows last night, with the conservative pundits crying foul all over the place.

Actually when you define conservative as anyone who is white and Christian you write off pretty much any election you care to compete in.

Quote:
I just wanted the liberal pundits to pooch out their lips and say "Awwwww! It's sooo sad! Poor widdle wepublicans! So oppwessed! Awwww!!! We pwomise to take is easy on you because you're so good at cwying!!"

You're right. Democrats don't cry. They just come up with elaborate conspiracy theories to explain why the keep losing elections.

Quote:
Saxby Chambliss v Max Cleland in Georgia. George Bush v John McCain in SC.

I swear to God. Dean is certainly not the most diplomatic man on earth, but he's hitting back and he's hitting hard and I like it. Democrats will never, EVER win anything at the national level again unless they grow a friggin' spine.

You can grow a spine and hit back hard. However the reality is that you have to do it correctly and appropriately. Otherwise you come off as the bad guy.

Quote:
That's what's got the conservatives so scared: the possiblity of an end to spinelessness.

Please... real spinlessness would require actually growing enough balls to compete in the realm of ideals instead of namecalling. Claiming that you hate all the Republican Social Security reform plans is easy. Growing a spine means you actually attempt to put forward a few of your own.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #74 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
what sort of long term gains or influence they were rewarded with as a result of such language. Gingrich was quite the bomb thrower but he became so polarizing that the party kept his ideals and tossed him rather than put up with the rhetoric.

I seem to remember Gingrich becoming a political liability with charges of ethics violations and divorcing his wife while on her deathbed.

Quote:
Actually when you define conservative as anyone who is white and Christian you write off pretty much any election you care to compete in.

And if Dean had actually done that, that would be a problem. Dean said that the party was "not very friendly to different kinds of people, they are a pretty monolithic party ... it's pretty much a white, Christian party."

You guys are bending over backwards to to make this NOT a statement about how the Republican Party ain't exactly the most diverse community in America.

Quote:
You're right. Democrats don't cry. They just come up with elaborate conspiracy theories to explain why the keep losing elections.

Yeah. They need to stop that and just start breaking the law quietly like the Republicans do/did.

Quote:
You can grow a spine and hit back hard. However the reality is that you have to do it correctly and appropriately. Otherwise you come off as the bad guy.

Indeed.

Quote:
Please... real spinlessness would require actually growing enough balls to compete in the realm of ideals instead of namecalling. Claiming that you hate all the Republican Social Security reform plans is easy. Growing a spine means you actually attempt to put forward a few of your own.

The Democrats seem to have a plan for SS reform: STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH IT. Why is that so hard?

But back to my larger point: Dean sure as hell seems to have people on the right scared.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #75 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I seem to remember Gingrich becoming a political liability with charges of ethics violations and divorcing his wife while on her deathbed.

I would have to disagree on that. The ethics thing had something like 75 charges filed against him with all but one dismissed. The last, if I recall correctly related to a college class he was teaching being called partisan. The divorced wife happened before he even became Speaker if I recall correctly.

More to the point do you really think it was fear that Americans would think he misunderstood the tax code on the ethics matter or that he kept ending up on magazines as the "Gingrich who stole Christmas" for being viewed as so mean spirited?

Another year of items like this in the news and Dean will be asked to go by his own peers as well.

Quote:
And if Dean had actually done that, that would be a problem. Dean said that the party was "not very friendly to different kinds of people, they are a pretty monolithic party ... it's pretty much a white, Christian party."

You guys are bending over backwards to to make this NOT a statement about how the Republican Party ain't exactly the most diverse community in America.

The reality is that Republicans captured large numbers of minority votes and that not winning the majority of minority votes does not make one a monolithic party of only white people. If I capture 40% of the Hispanic vote and you capture 60%, that doesn't mean I am unfriendly or only white. The reality is that Democrats are scared becaue they thought their race baiting would lock up non-black minority votes and that plan is failing. Since there is no plan B they are scared to death.

Quote:
Yeah. They need to stop that and just start breaking the law quietly like the Republicans do/did.

Better still they can do like in Washington and keep recounting the votes and magically have one county keep "finding" votes until their candidate happens to win.

Democratic claims involve voting machine density, claims of machine tampering. Republican claims deal with oh...actual votes. Big difference in my book. I guess not in yours.

Quote:
The Democrats seem to have a plan for SS reform: STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH IT. Why is that so hard?

It's hard because it is clearly a big lie and the big tax increase necessary to pay back all the bonds in the "trust fund" likely won't be politically tolerable. You don't start telling the next generation ten years from now that "BTW, your parents went and wrote themselves a big IOU and called it retirement savings, you are expected to pick up the tab on it" and call it sound policy.

Understand that the government, no matter who is president (even with Clinton 7 out of 8 years) spends the Social Security excess. They do not spend it to bring down the national debt. They spend it and still raise the debt. That excess plus the repayment of it is going to be a half TRILLION DOLLAR hole per year turn around the second that "trust fund" needs to be tapped. You don't just find that sort of money.

Quote:
But back to my larger point: Dean sure as hell seems to have people on the right scared.

I don't see anyone afraid of Dean. What I actually see is people pointing and laughing with glee at the thought of the midterm elections. I'll need to find my Carville quote about this last election. I mean when you watch a party put their best foot forward and then put a bullet right through it, what can you have but happiness?

However the reality is that within any party, there are positions that a person doesn't agree with. Since we have spoken at length you know what my areas of disagreement happen to be. When no other party or group can challenge on ideals then it is likely no new ideals will be considered.

I don't want the political process in the country to be a de facto win for Republicans simply because Democrats can't compete. I want the best ideal to win. If the ideal comes from Democrats, then I want the Republicans to have to adapt, or perhaps even improve the ideal to win mindshare. If Republicans adopt a bad ideal, I want them to lose. I don't want them to win simply because the Democrats are incompetent and can't field a reasonable response.

The fact is that right now, Democrats don't care about coming up with true solutions to problems. When someone else comes up with a solution, they attack the intent of the person rather than the ideal itself. The continue to lose big but will not adapt. If I were all about my team winning, this would probably be a great thing. However since I am about what is best for everyone, it isn't a great thing.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #76 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I would have to disagree on that. The ethics thing had something like 75 charges filed against him with all but one dismissed. The last, if I recall correctly related to a college class he was teaching being called partisan. The divorced wife happened before he even became Speaker if I recall correctly.

Fine. But the larger point was that the Democrats successfully hung those various albatrosses around his neck until he was politically an untenable ally.

Quote:
More to the point do you really think it was fear that Americans would think he misunderstood the tax code on the ethics matter or that he kept ending up on magazines as the "Gingrich who stole Christmas" for being viewed as so mean spirited?

It's the latter, of course. But it's also the perception that he was covered in scandals.

Quote:
Another year of items like this in the news and Dean will be asked to go by his own peers as well.

Perhaps. I just figured this was Dean coming out. He's been remarkably quiet for most of this tenure so far, and I'm glad to see him getting out there and saying crazy things. I'd like to see him on TV at least once a week with some kind of "Here's the dumb thing the Republicans did this week" segment.

Quote:
The reality is that Republicans captured large numbers of minority votes and that not winning the majority of minority votes does not make one a monolithic party of only white people. If I capture 40% of the Hispanic vote and you capture 60%, that doesn't mean I am unfriendly or only white. The reality is that Democrats are scared becaue they thought their race baiting would lock up non-black minority votes and that plan is failing. Since there is no plan B they are scared to death.

The reality is that the Bush campaign strategy through his entire first term was to mobilize one million evangelical Christians who Karl Rove believed sat out the 2000 election. Everything from his inaugural address (with its angel/tempet/whirlwind metaphors) through his frequent references to hymns (wonder-working power) was designed to resonate with this segment of the population. And once the Republican electioneering machinery got up and running (and they are really, really FAR better than Democrats at electioneering) it was all about the churches. The Democrats stupidly nominating a liberal Catholic played right into this strategy, because then it sent Catholics to the polls along with the evangelicals.

The reality is that the Republican party ain't the most diverse party in America. Just watch the conventions.

Quote:
Democratic claims involve voting machine density, claims of machine tampering. Republican claims deal with oh...actual votes. Big difference in my book. I guess not in yours.

No. Not in mine. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark. er, Ohio. Er, Florida.

Quote:
It's hard because it is clearly a big lie and the big tax increase necessary to pay back all the bonds in the "trust fund" likely won't be politically tolerable. You don't start telling the next generation ten years from now that "BTW, your parents went and wrote themselves a big IOU and called it retirement savings, you are expected to pick up the tab on it" and call it sound policy.

Understand that the government, no matter who is president (even with Clinton 7 out of 8 years) spends the Social Security excess. They do not spend it to bring down the national debt. They spend it and still raise the debt. That excess plus the repayment of it is going to be a half TRILLION DOLLAR hole per year turn around the second that "trust fund" needs to be tapped. You don't just find that sort of money.

Agreed.

Quote:
I don't see anyone afraid of Dean. What I actually see is people pointing and laughing with glee at the thought of the midterm elections. I'll need to find my Carville quote about this last election. I mean when you watch a party put their best foot forward and then put a bullet right through it, what can you have but happiness?

The problem is that all of this attention on Dean doesn't fit the Republican electioneering MO, which hinges largely on knowing that if they ignore certain things they'll go away as a function of the news cycle. When they pay attention to something, then they're either going to attack or they're afraid. Why, for instance, are Republicans suddenly soooo worried about the state of the Democratic Party?

Quote:
I don't want the political process in the country to be a de facto win for Republicans simply because Democrats can't compete. I want the best ideal to win. If the ideal comes from Democrats, then I want the Republicans to have to adapt, or perhaps even improve the ideal to win mindshare. If Republicans adopt a bad ideal, I want them to lose. I don't want them to win simply because the Democrats are incompetent and can't field a reasonable response.

I fear that you're going to be unhappy with the Dems for a while, then. I don't see them being competitive for 20 years.

Quote:
The fact is that right now, Democrats don't care about coming up with true solutions to problems.

The fact is that this is a Republican talking point from 1998.

Cheers
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #77 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
The only reason I used that example from the NY Post columnist is that it was probably the lengthiest comparison of someone to Hitler that I'd ever seen, and the irony is that it was done to Howard Dean.

If you're looking for examples of personal comments from the Republican Congressional leadership about a Democratic President, it's easy to find stuff that was said about Clinton. How about Gingrich calling Clinton "the enemy of normal people?" Or what about Chair of the Senate Foreign Relation Committee, Jesse Helms, saying that Clinton better watch out and use a bodyguard if he came to North Carolina?

I'm going to assume that both of those are accurate. I had not heard that reported before. Quote #1 doesn't qualify in my opinion, because it's really not personal, but does possibly equate to what Dean said about Republicans not earning honestly, or whatever it was.

As for Helms, if he did say that...I condemn it unequivocally. I think that's a real difference here...there are plenty of Dean supporters who are actually jusitfying his comments. And further, his comments are isolated. He and other Dems have engaged in pattern.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #78 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No he didn't. He implied that it had a greater ethnic diversity than the republican party, which is probably true.

With all due respect, are you shitting me? Dean's quote:

Quote:
"You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room? Only if they had the hotel staff in here."

While you are right in saying he was saying that there is greater ethnic diversity in the Republican party, the very manner in which he did it was racist. How can you not see this? He was clearly saying that the hotel staff was predominantly black, which is clearly a racist assumption. He might as well have substituted "hotel staff" with "wait staff from that place that serves fried chicken and watermelon". There's no difference.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #79 of 263
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Damn, it freaks me out that the conservatives are so scared of Dean. This was all over the screaming head shows last night, with the conservative pundits crying foul all over the place.

I just wanted the liberal pundits to pooch out their lips and say "Awwwww! It's sooo sad! Poor widdle wepublicans! So oppwessed! Awwww!!! We pwomise to take is easy on you because you're so good at cwying!!"

Saxby Chambliss v Max Cleland in Georgia. George Bush v John McCain in SC.

I swear to God. Dean is certainly not the most diplomatic man on earth, but he's hitting back and he's hitting hard and I like it. Democrats will never, EVER win anything at the national level again unless they grow a friggin' spine.

That's what's got the conservatives so scared: the possiblity of an end to spinelessness.

Umm, you obviously don't hang out with conservatives too much.

Conservatives LOVE Howard Dean, at least the ones that wish to see more Republicans elected. The answer is not for Democrats to "grow a spine". The answer is for them to grow a new agenda, or even AN agenda...one that is not dicated by the extreme left of the party.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #80 of 263
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Umm, you obviously don't hang out with conservatives too much.

Dude, I live in UTAH.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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