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WSJ: Apple considering the use of Intel chips in Macs - Page 2

post #41 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by inslider
1. If Apple was willing to switch to DVI, they're willing to look at Intel.

Switching from the DVI-based ADC to pure DVI is just a tad easier than switching CPU platform.


Quote:
Originally posted by inslider
2. Don't underestimate the grudge Steve carries about the 3GHz comment - no - let's call it what it was - A PROMISE.

So he will switch to somone who promised (but didn't deliver) a 4GHz chip?
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #42 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by inslider
1. If Apple was willing to switch to DVI, they're willing to look at Intel. They've seen the pros of conforming to standards and may now be looking to gain these benefits on a larger scale. They realized they can still innovate and be standardized with the rest of the computing world at the same time.

2. Don't underestimate the grudge Steve carries about the 3GHz comment - no - let's call it what it was - A PROMISE. I guarantee he did not make that statement lightly and all but had IBM sign off on it in blood. Combine this public humiliation (and let's realize that's what it was) with the fact that there still is no Mac over 2.7GHz, and even that has to be buried under 200 feet of Artic pack ice to keep it from blowing up like an Iraqi car bomb. I will lose respect for Steve (as will his employees and stockholders) if this IBM-still-under-3GHz-thing continues much longer. Don't think that the announcement of the XBox specs didn't grind some salt into the wound, even if they're not the same type of PPC that could drive a Mac.

If you're joking, that's fine. But otherwise you're going too far with that grudge thing.

The whole industry was sideswiped with the 90nm problems. Not just IBM.

Intel promised that the Prescott would scale "way beyond 5Ghz". It ended at 3.82Ghz.

In fact, they had to abandon their entire future line-up.

If Apple had used the Prescott, what would Jobs be thinking now, after having "promised" "beyond 5Ghz in a year"?

I am a fairly large stockholder, and I'm not concerned about Apple sticking with the PPC.

Why don't we wait at least until the dev conf to see if anything interesting happens?
post #43 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by webmail
Stop being such a drama queen.

Ouch! Someone just got served!
post #44 of 130
I think that the most likely explanation for this is that Apple wants an embedded ARM processor, or else they're playing chess with IBM, or maybe both (leak enough of the ARM processor negotiations to make IBM worry that maybe they're looking for a desktop CPU from Intel...) However, off in the land of open-ended speculation: A few bits of historical trivia struck me when I read this rumor.

First, Intel has been trying to kill x86 for a very, very, long time. In fact, the project that became IA-64 was started in 1994—the same year that the PowerPC was launched. Intel tried to launch a RISC platform in the intervening years, but no-one bought it. Intel has been shackled to x86 by legacy, and in particular by Microsoft legacy.

It came out in the MS antitrust trial that Intel and MS did not get along, and their cooperation was more a matter of mutual interdependence than anything else. But Intel was the more dependent partner, as Gates never failed to remind them. This, to me, is a particularly important datum. Why? Because MS just stiffed Intel on XBox2. Make no mistake: That was a big "fuck you" to x86 and to the x86 legacy, and it's the real beginning of the closed personal computing platform that Ballmer telegraphed to the press in the PR surrounding the original XBox. It can also be seen as a big "fuck you" to Intel, but with the silver lining that with MS moving away from x86—even to the incomplete extent that they will—Intel can also, finally, start moving away from x86 (but not toward Itanic, which just needs to be written off as a failure that cost tens of billions of dollars, and fabbed occasionally for HP, until that company implodes—but I digress). They just need clients. So of course they'd be talking to Apple. They [edit: Apple] might not be a big fish, but they're getting bigger, and they aren't wed to the x86 legacy, nor to commodity hardware.

I want to emphasize that this is blue sky stuff. But even if I've hit the target shooting blind, and even if Intel manages to convince Steve, I don't think we'll see anything for years. They could be shopping a reasonably fleshed-out concept, or they could be testing the waters to see if it's even worth pulling out a clean sheet of paper. Or, more likely, they're looking at the market, looking at the increasing dominance of modular designs, and shopping (the beginnings of) a next-generation modular, multi-core architecture. I have no doubt that, given the opportunity to start fresh, they could come up with something good.
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post #45 of 130
At last, a bit of sanity.
post #46 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
I think that the most likely explanation for this is that Apple wants an embedded ARM processor, or else they're playing chess with IBM, or maybe both (leak enough of the ARM processor negotiations to make IBM worry that maybe they're looking for a desktop CPU from Intel...) However, off in the land of open-ended speculation: A few bits of historical trivia struck me when I read this rumor.

First, Intel has been trying to kill x86 for a very, very, long time. In fact, the project that became IA-64 was started in 1994—the same year that the PowerPC was launched. Intel tried to launch a RISC platform in the intervening years, but no-one bought it. Intel has been shackled to x86 by legacy, and in particular by Microsoft legacy.

It came out in the MS antitrust trial that Intel and MS did not get along, and their cooperation was more a matter of mutual interdependence than anything else. But Intel was the more dependent partner, as Gates never failed to remind them. This, to me, is a particularly important datum. Why? Because MS just stiffed Intel on XBox2. Make no mistake: That was a big "fuck you" to x86 and to the x86 legacy, and it's the real beginning of the closed personal computing platform that Ballmer telegraphed to the press in the PR surrounding the original XBox. It can also be seen as a big "fuck you" to Intel, but with the silver lining that with MS moving away from x86—even to the incomplete extent that they will—Intel can also, finally, start moving away from x86 (but not toward Itanic, which just needs to be written off as a failure that cost tens of billions of dollars, and fabbed occasionally for HP, until that company implodes—but I digress). They just need clients. So of course they'd be talking to Apple. They might not be a big fish, but they're getting bigger, and they aren't wed to the x86 legacy, nor to commodity hardware.

I want to emphasize that this is blue sky stuff. But even if I've hit the target shooting blind, and even if Intel manages to convince Steve, I don't think we'll see anything for years. They could be shopping a reasonably fleshed-out concept, or they could be testing the waters to see if it's even worth pulling out a clean sheet of paper. Or, more likely, they're looking at the market, looking at the increasing dominance of modular designs, and shopping (the beginnings of) a next-generation modular, multi-core architecture. I have no doubt that, given the opportunity to start fresh, they could come up with something good.

The only thing about this that *could* make any sense is that Intel has got, or is waiting to produce a processor that is multi-OS compatible. They announced this technology a while back, if anyone here remembers.

When asked if Apple's OS would run on it, they said yes, it would. I am sure that they meant the current PPC version, at least that's how Intel was describing the technology. I forgot what they called it, but it was virtualization, though in hardware. Supposedly there was little if any loss in performance.

IBM has this technology as well, but I'n not certain as to how advanced it is.

*IF* this chip could allow OS X to run without a conversion, then perhaps PPC software would run as well. If the chip is fast, and works well, this could be a solution.

But who knows at this point in time whether it's an actual product? Perhaps that's what the article was referring to.
post #47 of 130
I just got another e-mail from my Forbes account.

Look at how seriously the market is taking this rumor:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2005/...ap2048298.html
post #48 of 130
Yes, that point above is right. I've read somewhere about Intel's virtualization technology which can allow processors to run multiple OS's simultaneously. You could use OS X for your day-to-day stuff and then flip to Windows to relax with a game.

Plus it has been said that Intel/Apple already have OS X running on x86 hardware in their research labs.
post #49 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
If you're joking, that's fine. But otherwise you're going too far with that grudge thing.

The whole industry was sideswiped with the 90nm problems. Not just IBM.

Intel promised that the Prescott would scale "way beyond 5Ghz". It ended at 3.82Ghz.

In fact, they had to abandon their entire future line-up.

If Apple had used the Prescott, what would Jobs be thinking now, after having "promised" "beyond 5Ghz in a year"?

I am a fairly large stockholder, and I'm not concerned about Apple sticking with the PPC.

Why don't we wait at least until the dev conf to see if anything interesting happens?

No, not kidding. You may be right. I may be wrong. I'm probably wrong. I just think people here have a bad case of "group think" on this. Sure, there's been a lot of "cry wolf" on this topic in the past; that just doesn't mean the Wolf won't come to visit this time.
post #50 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by inslider
No, not kidding. You may be right. I may be wrong. I'm probably wrong. I just think people here have a bad case of "group think" on this. Sure, there's been a lot of "cry wolf" on this topic in the past; that just doesn't mean the Wolf won't come to visit this time.

It's not just group-think.

Unless Intel has the virtualization cpu out, it makes little sense.
post #51 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
The only thing about this that *could* make any sense is that Intel has got, or is waiting to produce a processor that is multi-OS compatible. They announced this technology a while back, if anyone here remembers.

When asked if Apple's OS would run on it, they said yes, it would. I am sure that they meant the current PPC version, at least that's how Intel was describing the technology. I forgot what they called it, but it was virtualization, though in hardware. Supposedly there was little if any loss in performance.

Yes, I do remember this, and it fits into my hypothetical puzzle pretty nicely.

After all, virtualization is just another way to adapt hardware for customers.

Quote:
But who knows at this point in time whether it's an actual product? Perhaps that's what the article was referring to.

I don't believe that it is, but it really doesn't matter whether it is. Intel has wanted to move away from x86 for years. They've wanted some leverage against MS for years. These two wants are closely related. If this technology is the lever they have to move away from absolute dependence on MS and x86, it would only make sense that they'd talk to potential customers as soon as is practicable. Certainly, they'd open talks long before they'd committed all the R&D necessary to produce a shipping product.

I just hope they've learned from IA-64.
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post #52 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
WHY WHY WHY would Apple go with Intel x86????? There are so many disadvantages to x86 over what Apple has written for PPC and Intel's x86 is not as powerful as AMD's x86.

Easy. Supply, supply, supply. Intel can figure out how to manufacture, in quantity, their chips. IBM still has issues. Plus there's probably the concern over IBM treating Apple as just a customer, where they don't get priority over larger requests from other vendors (say xBox or IBM itself). Intel might not give them 'priority', but if they're using the standard intel CPUs, then you know there's a slew in the pipeline, not waiting 3 weeks for a box of 1000.

And I've been hearing about the so-called disadvantages of Intel chips for years, yet they still seem to be in the most computers. Seems odd, being such a piece of crap and all. Hey, and Windows is a POS to, and yet look how many use that. Its not all about how 'great' something is over something else, you know.
post #53 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Louzer
Easy. Supply, supply, supply. Intel can figure out how to manufacture, in quantity, their chips. IBM still has issues. Plus there's probably the concern over IBM treating Apple as just a customer, where they don't get priority over larger requests from other vendors (say xBox or IBM itself). Intel might not give them 'priority', but if they're using the standard intel CPUs, then you know there's a slew in the pipeline, not waiting 3 weeks for a box of 1000.

And I've been hearing about the so-called disadvantages of Intel chips for years, yet they still seem to be in the most computers. Seems odd, being such a piece of crap and all. Hey, and Windows is a POS to, and yet look how many use that. Its not all about how 'great' something is over something else, you know.

Sure. There is an understanding in the industry that IBM's R&D is #1, but Intel's productions facilities are #1.
post #54 of 130
Another interesting Forbes article just popped into my mailbox:

http://www.forbes.com/2005/05/23/cx_ah_0523apple.html
post #55 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Switching from the DVI-based ADC to pure DVI is just a tad easier than switching CPU platform.

No kidding; but you missed the point. It's about a shift in thinking inside Apple, nothing else.

Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
So he will switch to somone who promised (but didn't deliver) a 4GHz chip? [/B]

That would make more sense if the fastest P4 was at 2.6GHz.
post #56 of 130
1) Intel chips can be used for any number of things besides the CPU. There are many many chips in a computer.

2) "IBM - Wake TF Up. We need our chips"

3) In this whole thing, where is Freescale? As that Forbes article mentions, when people start the Apple on x86 rumors, it means Apple is coming out with a new computer, and often a new CPU. I would put my money on Freescale coming up with a dual core G4 for the mobile line. Maybe even with some 64 Bit portions to it. iBooks will go to 1.5 ghz single core G4, while the powerbooks will get to 1.8 or 2 ghz dual core G4.

4) Chip plants - who says Intel has to manufacture Intel chips at their Fabs? Maybe it's just a supply issue. Maybe Intel will be running G5's on the Fabs? Maybe Freescale will be running G5s on their fabs?

5) Most likely - this is a iPod video chip, some bridge chip, or something totally unrelated to the CPU itself.
post #57 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by kiwi-in-dc
Might not be that silly - Steve's done an endianness migration once before when NeXTStep 3 became NeXTStep for Intel, then OPENSTEP for HP/PA-RISC and OPENSTEP for Sparc. They know how to do it - they already have "Fat Binaries" in OS X.

They also already have the core of OS X (Darwin) running and available on x86 architectures. They would then just need to re-build the various libraries and kits. The biggest issue here would be things like CoreAudio and CoreVideo where they need speed and endian-ness and the lack of Altivec is a problem.

I was the OpenStep and NextStep PM for Sun at the time. We did the port to SPARC and Sun x86. The Cocoa libs and PDF were ported. Cocoa still has the remenents. Look at Foundation and App Kits...they still have NS prefix to them. NS is for NEXTSTEP.

Apple can do the port, the big/little endian stuff has been done.

My former Sun bosses without naming names are there at VP levels and are from Sun and directly worked on this. It can be done, not pretty but it can be done and could leverage existing codebase.
post #58 of 130
This smells of an iPod related product.
post #59 of 130
HELL NO, A THOUSAND TIMES HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My girlfreinds dell with the latest Intel gigagooglethousandmillion gee haw a hertz chip could double as a leaf blower in the fall.... and its new!
fans blowing all the time!!!!

and that chip 3.3 chip is not any faster or smoother than my Ibook 1.33mhz in fact it is much slower jerky and jittery..... and inaccurate, the day apple starts using CRAPTEL technology is the day They have turned to the darkside of the force and is also the day i switch to linux!!!!!!

this had better not be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I stand my mac ground Quality over quanitity.........................



post #60 of 130
Question # 345

Which one of these does not belong?

Xbox moves from x86 to PowerPC.
Playstation moves from proprietary to PowerPC.
Gamecube goes from embedded PowerPC to PowerPC.
Apple goes from PowerPC to Intel.
post #61 of 130
I personally dont believe that there is any reason for Apple to go to Intel for their desktop and workstation computers... but there is still lots of reasons to talk with intel, perhaps they are interested in some of the power saving technologies in the Pentium M line or they could be interested in components for their X serves or X Serve Raids.

SJ used Intel when re tooling Pixar a couple of years ago, why couldn't the X Serve nodes run on x86 or other intel technology, especially if they would just be running a custom OS and focusing on crunching numbers.
post #62 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by inslider
1. If Apple was willing to switch to DVI, they're willing to look at Intel. They've seen the pros of conforming to standards and may now be looking to gain these benefits on a larger scale. They realized they can still innovate and be standardized with the rest of the computing world at the same time.

They did this solely because of power issues. The PCI connection was not designed to deliver huge power to a 30 inch LCD - plane and simple.


Quote:
2. Don't underestimate the grudge Steve carries about the 3GHz comment - no - let's call it what it was - A PROMISE. I guarantee he did not make that statement lightly and all but had IBM sign off on it in blood. Combine this public humiliation (and let's realize that's what it was) with the fact that there still is no Mac over 2.7GHz, and even that has to be buried under 200 feet of Artic pack ice to keep it from blowing up like an Iraqi car bomb. I will lose respect for Steve (as will his employees and stockholders) if this IBM-still-under-3GHz-thing continues much longer. Don't think that the announcement of the XBox specs didn't grind some salt into the wound, even if they're not the same type of PPC that could drive a Mac.

Someone had their triple espresso this morning. I think you had better worry more about your own grudge, it might lower your blood pressure and save your life.

Let the engineers do their job. Companies rarely ever over promise in a public way on purpose and never deliver. It depresses stock values way to fast - just not smart business.
post #63 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by david_oc
Wasn't there a story a while back that Apple already use intel chips in the Xserve RAID?

They do. I believe the title of the article was something along the lines of "Apple has Intel Inside (Sort of)"
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post #64 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by eat@me
I was the OpenStep and NextStep PM for Sun at the time. We did the port to SPARC and Sun x86. The Cocoa libs and PDF were ported. Cocoa still has the remenents. Look at Foundation and App Kits...they still have NS prefix to them. NS is for NEXTSTEP.

Apple can do the port, the big/little endian stuff has been done.

My former Sun bosses without naming names are there at VP levels and are from Sun and directly worked on this. It can be done, not pretty but it can be done and could leverage existing codebase.

Correction: NS is for Openstep. NX is for NeXTSTEP. I know I worked at NeXT and Apple.

FAT Binaries are always a possibility but that takes into account that you are dealing solely with Cocoa applications and to waste more resources on CFM Fat binaries will only add complexity to an already bloated structure which supports Classic and Carbon when it should be just Cocoa.
post #65 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Catman4d2
...the day apple starts using CRAPTEL technology...

Did you make that up yourself?
post #66 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Question # 345

Which one of these does not belong?

Xbox moves from x86 to PowerPC.
Playstation moves from proprietary to PowerPC.
Gamecube goes from embedded PowerPC to PowerPC.
Apple goes from PowerPC to Intel.

Stop asking difficult questions!
post #67 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by msconvert
They did this solely because of power issues. The PCI connection was not designed to deliver huge power to a 30 inch LCD - plane and simple.

They did it to sell more monitors to PC users who had problems with the idea of having to buy adaptors.

Plain and simple.
post #68 of 130
Three words:

Intel Extreme Graphics!!!



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post #69 of 130
I'm willing to bet the answer to this is really, really simple...

http://www.intel.com/netcomms/technologies/wimax/
post #70 of 130
Could this, perhaps, explain the delay in bringing out the next generation Powerbooks?
post #71 of 130
Smoke screen for real WWDC announcements.
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post #72 of 130
To join Intel would be to join the devil himself...

Well...depends...
post #73 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by murk
Smoke screen for real WWDC announcements.

my first thought as well
post #74 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by OS X Guy
Could this, perhaps, explain the delay in bringing out the next generation Powerbooks?

Everything explains that.
post #75 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
After all, virtualization is just another way to adapt hardware for customers.

Strangely enough, IBM was touting the advantages of virtualization at a co-IBM/VMWare session I attended a month or so ago. Of course, they were talking about bringing all the standalone servers into a main virtual server environment powered by their blade servers. Didn't help with MS licensing either.

In any event, a virtual thing is a possibility, heck Apple did it with Classic when OS X first arrived. Thanks to Microsoft's lack of Exchange support in OS X, the company I work for is still tied to the bastard child. Virtualization is fine, but in the long run, is just a means of conversion.

I suppose some software houses (read: Adobe) would be happy to hear that Apple would choose x86. I just do not see it happening despite all the upside; and I just don't see much of one.
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post #76 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Question # 345

Which one of these does not belong?

Xbox moves from x86 to PowerPC.
Playstation moves from proprietary to PowerPC.
Gamecube goes from embedded PowerPC to PowerPC.
Apple goes from PowerPC to Intel.

Wait

I know this one
post #77 of 130
It would be very "Steve" like for Apple to leak this to help them in their dealings with IBM for better processors or better prices. Freescale is not up to the task yet and Apple is sniffing around to see how much of the technology that IBM put into the development of chips for MS and Sony they can get at the Apple discount. This is just smart business, IMHO. IBM should be reminded from time to time that Apple can port to Intel. And not to be forgotten is that Apples development costs for board design would go way down, video boards would be easier to support and maybe cheaper. I believe that Intel has some very compelling chips and maybe what IBM has to offer cannot be offered and supplied at a price that is good for Apple. If Apple is paying 20% more for a processor that is 30% faster is one thing, however, if Apple is paying 30+% more (when factoring in board costs, and video chip costs) for a chip that is 10 to 15% faster or less, is quite another thing.

Also never forget that Steves good friend Andy Grove extended an offer to Apple that they would love to work with Apple. I believe that he said that Apple would never have to worry about supply and could not beat the price. I think that Alien and Boxx both use Intel and they put up very good numbers.
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post #78 of 130
Quote:
Originally posted by Brendon
It would be very "Steve" like for Apple to leak this to help them in their dealings with IBM for better processors or better prices. Freescale is not up to the task yet and Apple is sniffing around to see how much of the technology that IBM put into the development of chips for MS and Sony they can get at the Apple discount. This is just smart business, IMHO. IBM should be reminded from time to time that Apple can port to Intel. And not to be forgotten is that Apples development costs for board design would go way down, video boards would be easier to support and maybe cheaper. I believe that Intel has some very compelling chips and maybe what IBM has to offer cannot be offered and supplied at a price that is good for Apple. If Apple is paying 20% more for a processor that is 30% faster is one thing, however, if Apple is paying 30+% more (when factoring in board costs, and video chip costs) for a chip that is 10 to 15% faster or less, is quite another thing.

I'm not so sure about that. Those game chips are not the chips that Apple is using by any stretch. It's doubtful that they would be any good as general purpose processors at this time.

I'm also not so sure about how much of that technology can be transferable, even if IBM's licenses with MS and Sony would allow it.

Even if it could, it would take some time. Apple would then have to do more major rewrites of the OS to accommodate them, and so on.

I think that Apple's chips are on a different development path.
post #79 of 130
I will not be surprise if Apple has some contacts with Intel. Intel is a major chip supplier, involved in more than just CPU.

The idear of the switch is ridiculous, but it cost nothing to have some contact in case of a (desesparate) plan B.

A switch to x86 will be the end of Apple.
post #80 of 130
I actually think something like cell or MS' processor would work very well as a laptop chip. Keep in mind a lot of the limitations present in it are present in the G4 so it is really just a case of which would be quicker per second.

Just depends on how hot they get and their power management. Neither of those consoles is a Powerbook.
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