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US planting car bombs in Iraq - Page 3

post #81 of 128
Quote:
Fine. Syria has caught supposed insurgents that have come from SA. That does not exclude the possibility even likelihood that they are turning the other way so that Syrians could enter Iraq. I don't know how you or anyone can go from the fact they are catching Saudis to they are therefore catching everyone or even trying for that matter.

I am not saying that they are doing one thing or the other. You were claiming that Iran and Syria were "Sending forces against US forces" and you have provided absolutely no evidence that your statement is true.

Syria might very well be sending "forces". However, using your own evidence it looks like Saudi Arabia is actually sending "forces" because that's what military intelligence thinks (unless they disagree with the position you decided to take before doing any research, which makes them stupid liars).
And past that, whatever might be coming from Syria and Iran have actually been dismissed by the Bush administration as insignificant.

What's fairly clear here is that your only real goal is to win Internet arguments, because you'll even insult the military and intelligence officials of the US when they get in your way.

Also worth noticing, you include the qualifier "supposed" when discussing insurgents from Saudi Arabia. Interesting qualifier.

Quote:
Well, that is an awful black and white approach for an enlightened and nuanced "progressive". The difference between the SA Govmt. and Iran/Stria Govmt. is that SA did not declare an alliance AGAINST the US. Let's be honest here, please.

Using your "military and intelligence officials are probably lying to cover the truth" logic wouldn't it be wisest to not rankle our feathers before attacking us?
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post #82 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
he knows my wife and I are going to Paris this year.

Your WIFE!!!????

Did I miss something?!!

Last I heard you were just starting to go out with someone . . . .


A much belated congratulations!!


Now . . . . I wouln't put it past the US to put a bomb or two out in order to foment sectarian strife . . . and thus removing pressure from unilateral Muslim hatred of the us

But I doubt it . . . .

But I still would not assume the US is always innocent . . . we know for a fact that the CIA was responsible for a bomb in the ME that was targetted at a leader but killed almost 25 people outside of a mosque . . . this was in teh 70s . . . anybody know the incedent that I am talking about?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #83 of 128
Oh yes, Fellows got married.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #84 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I am not saying that they are doing one thing or the other. You were claiming that Iran and Syria were "Sending forces against US forces" and you have provided absolutely no evidence that your statement is true.

This long friggin back and forth and now you're saying you're not really arguing one way or the other? Unbe-friggin-leavable!

I will walk through my reasoning step by step. OK?:

1. I post an article that is dated March 18, 2005 which states - "CIA Director Porter J. Goss told Congress yesterday that the governments of Syria and Iran are helping insurgents in Iraq, despite U.S. efforts to end the cooperation." - I will assume that this is a fact since the White House did not hold a press conference saying otherwise. OK? How much plainer does it need to be stated? I'll try if I must. Let me know.

2. I post an article dated 16 February, 2005, which states - and I quote ""We are ready to help Syria on all grounds to confront threats," Iranian Vice-President Mohammad Reza Aref said after meeting Syrian PM Naji al-Otari." This is also fact. This establishes a cooperation between the two countries. If I am wrong, please tell me how.

3. Next article dated May 30, 2005, states - "Syria has been trying to show it is tackling the problem of foreign fighters crossing into Iraq, and a state-run newspaper suggested Monday that authorities require visas of some Arab nationals. " Please read it as many times as it takes for you to understand this clearly stated sentence. Syria knows there is a problem and is trying to prove it has approached it. Please, please, please don't insult my intelligence by quoting the second paragraph as proof that the first is not true. The Saudis that were caught were caught trying to cross into Iraq through SYRIA! Get it?

4. Next article goes way back to September 1, 2003 which states - "A reliable source told G2 Bulletin the overall recruitment system for so-called foreign volunteers destined for Iraq is based on disseminating rumors in thousands of madrassas and mosques scattered all over the world. This system is already nicknamed the ''Minaret Network.'' The network is loosely organized, and the role of the local preacher-recruiter is basically to identify willing candidates, incite them and to provide them with enough funds collected from Zakat charities so they can reach Lebanon and Syria." This, if correct, would handily explain why foreigners are in Syrian and entering into Iraq from there.

Now if that is not enough for you ket's take it a couple of steps farther, shall we.

5. I enter an article dated February 10, 2005
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...770833334.html - ""As far as I know, one of those who blew himself up was from Chechnya; another one was from Sudan; and a third person, who was killed, was a Syrian," he said. Another Syrian was arrested." The article goes on to say "The captured smugglers provided details of the activities of the Al Fajer, a branch of Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security, which is working to recruit Iraqis for terrorist operations." - Proving there are Syrian Nationals fighting in Iraq.


Then there's this one from May 11, 2005
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/10/iraq.main/ - ""The region, a known smuggling route and sanctuary for foreign fighters, is also used as a staging area where foreign fighters receive weapons and equipment for their attacks in the more populated key cities," the U.S. military said." Talking about the recent operation on Syria's border. And also proving fighters from Syria are being sent to Iraq.

Of course if you look at this article dating back to June 20, 2004
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=39047 - "The report attributes the information to U.S. intelligence sources who say the transfer of fighters has been carried out through Syria, following an Iranian initiative. The transit through Syrian territory is permitted by Damascus along its porous border with Iraq.

The Hezbollah fighters in Iraq are part of a broader force of pro-Iranian militants operating in Iraq to destabilize the country and undermine U.S.-led coalition forces and the new Iraqi government." - tying this whole thing together. Iran and Syria are both sending bodies into Iraq to help with the chaos and killing.

I can quote you article after article after article showing that large amount af Syrians fighting in Iraq, if you really need all that.


Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Syria might very well be sending "forces". However, using your own evidence it looks like Saudi Arabia is actually sending "forces" because that's what military intelligence thinks (unless they disagree with the position you decided to take before doing any research, which makes them stupid liars).
And past that, whatever might be coming from Syria and Iran have actually been dismissed by the Bush administration as insignificant.

Read the above again.

Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
What's fairly clear here is that your only real goal is to win Internet arguments, because you'll even insult the military and intelligence officials of the US when they get in your way.

First I stated I was joking.

Second, what is even more clear is that you will side with any argument that is anti-bush or anti-us or anti-military. I am merely pointing out where you are wrong or being dishonest. I am winning this argument because I am right.

Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Also worth noticing, you include the qualifier "supposed" when discussing insurgents from Saudi Arabia. Interesting qualifier.

Whatever you are implying don't. I was using it because I don't trust ANY information from the Syrian government.

Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Using your "military and intelligence officials are probably lying to cover the truth" logic wouldn't it be wisest to not rankle our feathers before attacking us?

No. The military is in the middle of battle, my friend. It is in their interest not to show any of their cards.
post #85 of 128
Quote:
This long friggin back and forth and now you're saying you're not really arguing one way or the other? Unbe-friggin-leavable!

Why would I pretend to know things I cannot know?

My contention is that you needed to back up your assertion that Syria and Iran were "aggressors". Which you still have not done.

Quote:
1. I post an article that is dated March 18, 2005 which states - "CIA Director Porter J. Goss told Congress yesterday that the governments of Syria and Iran are helping insurgents in Iraq, despite U.S. efforts to end the cooperation." - I will assume that this is a fact since the White House did not hold a press conference saying otherwise. OK? How much plainer does it need to be stated? I'll try if I must. Let me know.

What does "helping" mean?

Quote:
2. I post an article dated 16 February, 2005, which states - and I quote ""We are ready to help Syria on all grounds to confront threats," Iranian Vice-President Mohammad Reza Aref said after meeting Syrian PM Naji al-Otari." This is also fact. This establishes a cooperation between the two countries. If I am wrong, please tell me how.

What does "confront threats" mean?

Quote:
3. Next article dated May 30, 2005, states - "Syria has been trying to show it is tackling the problem of foreign fighters crossing into Iraq, and a state-run newspaper suggested Monday that authorities require visas of some Arab nationals. " Please read it as many times as it takes for you to understand this clearly stated sentence. Syria knows there is a problem and is trying to prove it has approached it. Please, please, please don't insult my intelligence by quoting the second paragraph as proof that the first is not true. The Saudis that were caught were caught trying to cross into Iraq through SYRIA! Get it?

Syria could very well have a problem with insurgents getting into Iraq through Syria without actually sending insurgents on purpose.
If a Mexican crosses the Rio Grande and robs a bank in Laredo, Texas, did Mexico send a bank robber to the US?

Quote:
4. Next article goes way back to September 1, 2003 which states - "A reliable source told G2 Bulletin the overall recruitment system for so-called foreign volunteers destined for Iraq is based on disseminating rumors in thousands of madrassas and mosques scattered all over the world. This system is already nicknamed the ''Minaret Network.'' The network is loosely organized, and the role of the local preacher-recruiter is basically to identify willing candidates, incite them and to provide them with enough funds collected from Zakat charities so they can reach Lebanon and Syria." This, if correct, would handily explain why foreigners are in Syrian and entering into Iraq from there.

Even if 100% correct, absolutely nothing about the Syrian government.

Quote:
5. I enter an article dated February 10, 2005
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtr...0770833334.html - ""As far as I know, one of those who blew himself up was from Chechnya; another one was from Sudan; and a third person, who was killed, was a Syrian," he said. Another Syrian was arrested." The article goes on to say "The captured smugglers provided details of the activities of the Al Fajer, a branch of Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security, which is working to recruit Iraqis for terrorist operations." - Proving there are Syrian Nationals fighting in Iraq.

Sure, there could very well be Syrian nationals fighting in Iraq. Jordanian nationals. Iranian nationals. Saudi Arabian nationals. Ad infinitum, it still does not prove your point. You have shown nothing about the governments sending then on purpose and past that,nothing showing there is any significance at all to it (as a matter of fact you posted counter-evidence to that on your own).


Quote:
Then there's this one from May 11, 2005
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/10/iraq.main/ - ""The region, a known smuggling route and sanctuary for foreign fighters, is also used as a staging area where foreign fighters receive weapons and equipment for their attacks in the more populated key cities," the U.S. military said." Talking about the recent operation on Syria's border. And also proving fighters from Syria are being sent to Iraq.

Being "sent" by whom? No evidence.

Quote:
Of course if you look at this article dating back to June 20, 2004
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/a...RTICLE_ID=39047 - "The report attributes the information to U.S. intelligence sources who say the transfer of fighters has been carried out through Syria, following an Iranian initiative. The transit through Syrian territory is permitted by Damascus along its porous border with Iraq.

The Hezbollah fighters in Iraq are part of a broader force of pro-Iranian militants operating in Iraq to destabilize the country and undermine U.S.-led coalition forces and the new Iraqi government." - tying this whole thing together. Iran and Syria are both sending bodies into Iraq to help with the chaos and killing.

US intelligence says that even if such a thing were happening it is of no significance. Meanwhile, you're trying to use it to justify war against those two nations?

And you can childishly dismiss insulting US military and intelligence as a"joke" yet use it to back you up?

Quote:
Second, what is even more clear is that you will side with any argument that is anti-bush or anti-us or anti-military.

Yeah, that's been my agenda from the beginning... oh wait...

Quote:
No. The military is in the middle of battle, my friend. It is in their interest not to show any of their cards.

So how can you trust the intelligence report saying that Iran and Syria are working together to send troops into Iraq?
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post #86 of 128
Thread Starter 
Back on-topic and while we're waiting for Naples to answer Groverat's questions let's get back on-topic for a minute or so.

To recap: the US may (or may not) be planting car bombs in Iraq. The purpose of this activity is to destabilise the country (or more properly, ensure continued instability) and incite civil war - possibly in pursuit of causing a wider conflagration in the region and justify an invasion of Iran and/or Syria.

More evidence is emerging of this destabisation/civil war strategy on a daily basis.

Exhibit A:

Quote:
In yet another horrible PR move (or attempt to raise sectarian tensions?) by the US military the head of Iraqs largest Sunni political party, Mohsen Abdul Hamid was detained from his home early this morning in western Baghdad. Of course his head was promptly bagged and his hands tied before he was taken away to be interrogated. His three sons were also detained with him. Stun bombs and bullets were said to be used during the raid, according to his wife.

It just so happens that his party, the Islamic Party, opposes the new US-backed security operation now engulfing Baghdad because they believe the security forces will disregard the rights of innocent Iraqis. Later today he was released and the military admitted it made a mistake.

The military statement concerning the matter said, Coalition forces regret any inconvenience and acknowledge (Abdul-Hamids) cooperation in resolving this matter.

Abdul Hamid refused their apology in the Arab media, and stated that he was humiliated when US soldiers held their boots on his head for 20 minutes.

The Islamic Party released a statement after the release of Abdul Hamid which said, The U.S. administration claims it is interested in drawing Sunnis into the political process but it seems that their way of doing so is by raids, arrests and violating human rights.

At least 740 Iraqis have been killed since the new government took power in late April, and with the ongoing operations sparking more attacks each day, it doesnt look like there is an end in sight. Keep in mind, the vast majority of the Iraqi security forces are either Shia or Kurdish battling against a primarily Sunni resistance (for now).

It can easily be argued that we are witnessing a US-backed Iraqi government who is deliberating using its power to wage a civil war.

Certainly the belief that the US has this intent, even if untrue, is very dangerous one to leave un-addressed - but the abuses and suspicious activities continue with no thought for this aspect. Certainly, if civil war is not the aim, no-one seems to care much if it is a by-product.

Consider this astounding article

The US - I repeat for the benefit of those that may otherwise wish to downplay this - US Intelligence have told the Italian government in Rome that the Iraqi Insurgents Are Using Italian Firearms. Berettas to be precise.

The thing about these Barettas though is that they have no serial numbers and are of recent manufacture. The numbers have not been erased clumsily - it seems that they have been subject to a high-tech process, possibly even during manufacture. Some numbers were simply never there in the first place.

Quote:
Due to the cleanly erased or non-existent serial numbers, investigators believe that the late-model Beretta firearms, similar to those carried by U.S. forces, were intended for people with substantial government backing.

The phrase similar to those carried by U.S. forces is very interesting but it is the statement intended for people with substantial government backing. that is the most interesting. What does it mean ? Which government ? How would the insurgents get hold of a cache of US issue Barettas even with the serial numbers ?

And again:

Quote:
The lack of serial numbers suggests that the weapons were intended for intelligence operations or terrorist cells with substantial government backing.

Intelligence Operations.

And another one, Italian news report from yesterday confirming the plan to subdivide Iraq:

Quote:
A think tank that acts as a consultant to the White House has proposed a plan to end the war in Iraq by dividing the country into six fully autonomous territories, several Iranian websites have claimed. The reports including, one by the Baztab site, did not, reveal any specific details about the alleged plan by the American Foreign Policy Council, (AFPC) or how the information was obtained.

According to Baztab, the American Foreign Policy Council (AFPC) believes that the government of the Shiite leader, Ibrahim Jaafari, does not have the capacity to control the country or include the Sunnis within the political process, and to convince them to lay down their weapons.

The Iranian website said the plan was developed by David Philip, a former White House advisor. The plan also calls for three southern regions - of the proposed six - to be palced under Shiite control, for two of the northern regions to be controlled by Kurdish forces and one region to be assigned to the Sunnis.

They need to wrap Iraq up in order to move on to Iran. They will stop at nothing to do that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #87 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Why would I pretend to know things I cannot know?

No need to pretend if you do some evaluation.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
My contention is that you needed to back up your assertion that Syria and Iran were "aggressors". Which you still have not done.

Syria and Iran are providing tactical and monetary help to the people that are killing US troops and blowing up bombs that are killing 700 civilians this last month alone.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
What does "helping" mean?

Juvenile but if you insist:

1. To give assistance to; aid: the governments of Syria and Iran are helping insurgents in Iraq.
2. To contribute to the furtherance of; promote.
3. To give relief to: help the needy.
4. To ease; relieve: medication to help your cold.
5. To change for the better; improve: A fresh coat of paint will help a scarred old table.
6. To refrain from; avoid or resist. Used with can or cannot: couldn't help laughing.
7. To wait on, as in a store or restaurant.

In this context. both #1 and #2 apply.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
What does "confront threats" mean?

Juvenile again, but here goes:

1. To come face to face with, especially with defiance or hostility: We are ready to help Syria on all grounds to confront threats.
2. To bring face to face with: The defendant was confronted with incontrovertible evidence of guilt.
3. To come up against; encounter: confronted danger at every turn.

In this case and context #1 is the correct choice.

1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.

You guessed it. #3 is your man.

This was directed squarely at the US if you will remember the curcumstances surrounding this deal.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Syria could very well have a problem with insurgents getting into Iraq through Syria without actually sending insurgents on purpose.
If a Mexican crosses the Rio Grande and robs a bank in Laredo, Texas, did Mexico send a bank robber to the US?

Bad example. Because in both situations the people in question are being helped by sovereign governments. Oops.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Even if 100% correct, absolutely nothing about the Syrian government.

Put 2 and 2 together... or just do what you're doing now, you seem to be squeaking by on that.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Sure, there could very well be Syrian nationals fighting in Iraq. Jordanian nationals. Iranian nationals. Saudi Arabian nationals. Ad infinitum, it still does not prove your point. You have shown nothing about the governments sending then on purpose and past that,nothing showing there is any significance at all to it (as a matter of fact you posted counter-evidence to that on your own).

I have provided you with more than enough evidence from multiple sources. Just read the or watch the news every day. Pay close attention to the nationalities that are involved in the fighting. These people are coming from somewhere. You have not been able to disprove anything I have posted. All you can do is make claims about lack of proof and pose asinine questions like what "does "is" mean?". Yet another contrarian distraction technique.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Being "sent" by whom? No evidence.

Sent - 1. To dispatch, as by a communications medium: send a message by radio.
a. To direct to go on a mission: sent troops into the Middle East.

From the WorldNetDaily.com story I quoted: "Assad himself ordered the establishment of these training and assembling centers. The clear purpose of this policy is to avoid accusations Syria is directly supporting the Iraqifada. Syrian intelligence's goal is not to allow volunteers to stay in Syrian territory more than the minimal time needed to reach the border with Iraq or the al-Hasakah refugee camp in Syria, known to be a recruitment station for Arab and Muslim terrorists."

Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
US intelligence says that even if such a thing were happening it is of no significance. Meanwhile, you're trying to use it to justify war against those two nations?

Whoa there cowboy!

You are dwelling on one source despite all others.

Please, please, please explain where I Justified any war against Iran/Syria.

If Syria/Iran are allying themselves with those fighting the US, have they not in essence made themselves the enemy?
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
And you can childishly dismiss insulting US military and intelligence as a"joke" yet use it to back you up?

More childishness.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Yeah, that's been my agenda from the beginning... oh wait...

That's the way I see it. That's the way you are coming across. Sorry.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
So how can you trust the intelligence report saying that Iran and Syria are working together to send troops into Iraq?

Once again, I am not focusing on only one report as you seem to have the affinity for doing. The big picture.
post #88 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Back on-topic and while we're waiting for Naples to answer Groverat's questions let's get back on-topic for a minute or so.

To recap: the US may (or may not) be planting car bombs in Iraq. The purpose of this activity is to destabilise the country (or more properly, ensure continued instability) and incite civil war - possibly in pursuit of causing a wider conflagration in the region and justify an invasion of Iran and/or Syria.

More evidence is emerging of this destabisation/civil war strategy on a daily basis.

Exhibit A:



Certainly the belief that the US has this intent, even if untrue, is very dangerous one to leave un-addressed - but the abuses and suspicious activities continue with no thought for this aspect. Certainly, if civil war is not the aim, no-one seems to care much if it is a by-product.

Consider this astounding article

The US - I repeat for the benefit of those that may otherwise wish to downplay this - US Intelligence have told the Italian government in Rome that the Iraqi Insurgents Are Using Italian Firearms. Berettas to be precise.

The thing about these Barettas though is that they have no serial numbers and are of recent manufacture. The numbers have not been erased clumsily - it seems that they have been subject to a high-tech process, possibly even during manufacture. Some numbers were simply never there in the first place.



The phrase similar to those carried by U.S. forces is very interesting but it is the statement intended for people with substantial government backing. that is the most interesting. What does it mean ? Which government ? How would the insurgents get hold of a cache of US issue Barettas even with the serial numbers ?

And again:



Intelligence Operations.

And another one, Italian news report from yesterday confirming the plan to subdivide Iraq:



They need to wrap Iraq up in order to move on to Iran. They will stop at nothing to do that.

Um, being an ex-machinist, that also made a number of prototype guns, I will tell you anyone with an old Bridgeport Mill could easily remove the pad where they stamp the serial numbers on a gun. They are usually raised and taking off as little a 1/64th of an inch would remove the numbers and not effect the operations of the firearm in most cases. No hi-tech there and everything needed is readily available worldwide.

Sorry, non-story. Waa-waa-wa-waaaa.
post #89 of 128
There is a sentence that relates specifically to your gun scenario, Naples:
The numbers have not been erased clumsily - it seems that they have been subject to a high-tech process, possibly even during manufacture. Some numbers were simply never there in the first place.

Don't you think if it is specified that the process looked to be "high-tech" that those who know might already know that you could just use a mill to file it off?

Past that, what about that last sentence?
How exactly would insurgents get "prototype" Barettas?

Quote:
If Syria/Iran are allying themselves with those fighting the US, have they not in essence made themselves the enemy?

I don't know what "made themselves the enemy" would even mean. If the Iranian and Syrian governments were actively recruiting, training and sending foreign fighters specifically to fight US troops then that would have to be stopped, but your nebulous terms lend themselves perfectly to the "useful idiot" status I was talking about earlier.
Defend potential policy first, then backfill with logic and rationale.

Quote:
Once again, I am not focusing on only one report as you seem to have the affinity for doing. The big picture.

You've only provided one report that actually has anything to say, and that report has US military disagreeing with your entire premise.

Sorry, but WorldNetDaily does not count.
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post #90 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
There is a sentence that relates specifically to your gun scenario, Naples:
The numbers have not been erased clumsily - it seems that they have been subject to a high-tech process, possibly even during manufacture. Some numbers were simply never there in the first place.

Don't you think if it is specified that the process looked to be "high-tech" that those who know might already know that you could just use a mill to file it off?

Past that, what about that last sentence?
How exactly would insurgents get "prototype" Barettas?

First, a mill does not file off anything. It is a precision machine made to do precision machining. here take a look:



Most big jobs like whole batches of guns. Would be done on a computerized mill and machining equipment. Anyone with access to the CAD/CAM files or the actual prints or a prototype to reverse engineer could produce a prototype gun in any given quantity.

You can also mill off a treated metal (ie the finish on a gun) and retreat just the area that was milled so that it appears to be "factory fresh".

This is an area that I have years of experience, so if you want to argue for the sake of argument, go right ahead. It would be to your folly, though. I have setup entire manufacturing facilities.
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I don't know what "made themselves the enemy" would even mean. If the Iranian and Syrian governments were actively recruiting, training and sending foreign fighters specifically to fight US troops then that would have to be stopped, but your nebulous terms lend themselves perfectly to the "useful idiot" status I was talking about earlier.
Defend potential policy first, then backfill with logic and rationale.

You are a funny creature. If you ally yourself with an enemy of the US you are making yourself or choosing to be an enemy of the US also. No offense but you are lending yourself to the simple term of "idiot" by posting these "i don't know what the term "jump up" means" statements. Is this some new approach to logic or something?
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
You've only provided one report that actually has anything to say, and that report has US military disagreeing with your entire premise.

Sorry, but WorldNetDaily does not count.

Right. Very open minded and "progressive" of you.
post #91 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Are you purposely trying to be juvenile or does it just come naturally?


Coward.


Also although Groverat came back and posted just right ahead of me and addressed some of the same issues this is the best you can comment on the entire statement?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #92 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Coward.


Also although Groverat came back and posted just right ahead of me and addressed some of the same issues this is the best you can comment on the entire statement?

Once again, you start your post with an insult. I don't have to address you, there is no rule that says I have converse with someone that reverts to a 3rd grade level of debate.

When you start of with baseless accusations like this:

"I see you waited for Groverat to leave ( true to form ) before posting your reply"

you only prove that you more time than sense.

I mean really, who checks to see if anyone is online when posting? This is nor AIM this is a friggin' bulletin board! You post and get a reply when the other person gets around to reading it.

You are a child mentally, and you prove it every time you post.

Grow up.
post #93 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, you start your post with an insult. I don't have to address you, there is no rule that says I have converse with someone that reverts to a 3rd grade level of debate.

When you start of with baseless accusations like this:

"I see you waited for Groverat to leave ( true to form ) before posting your reply"

you only prove that you more time than sense.

I mean really, who checks to see if anyone is online when posting? This is nor AIM this is a friggin' bulletin board! You post and get a reply when the other person gets around to reading it.

You are a child mentally, and you prove it every time you post.

Grow up.

How's it going with the research on the Syrian 'Hama massacre' ?

Any thoughts ? Any about the massacre ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #94 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
How's it going with the research on the Syrian 'Hama massacre' ?

Any thoughts ? Any about the massacre ?

If you have a point, then be a man and make it. I am not gonna chase some phantom argument you are trying to make.
post #95 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
If you have a point, then be a man and make it. I am not gonna chase some phantom argument you are trying to make.

I made it earlier in the thread - just because you are trying to ignore it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I could make it again but you would ignore it again.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #96 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I made it earlier in the thread - just because you are trying to ignore it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I could make it again but you would ignore it again.

The vast majority of people in Syria are of what persuasion?
post #97 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Syria is a secular quasi-Marxist State and is in fact run by a branch of the Ba'ath party - which is why they are uniformly hostile to Islamists and were massacring them wholesale for decades before 911 and still are.

This has bugged me, so I will address it.

The Ba'ath party is a misnomer, since the Ba'ath party in Syria was a left wing and the party in Iraq was a right wing of the party back in the 60's. The Syrian wing of the party adopted adopted 'Unity" and abandoned socialism in it's favor, back in the 50's. Iraq's wing did the same in the 60's

Quote:
The Origins of Hezbollah

The origins of Hezbollah date back to June 1982, when Syria decided to permit the Shi'ite Islamist revolutionary government in Iran to dispatch around 1,000 Pasdaran (members of the Revolutionary Guards) to the Beqaa Valley of eastern Lebanon, an area occupied by Syrian forces. Syria had previously refused to permit the clerical regime in Tehran to directly involve itself in Lebanese affairs, but the Israeli invasion of Lebanon earlier that month and the cordial reception accorded to the Israelis by Shi'ites in the South convinced Syrian leaders that Iranian involvement could serve to block Israeli influence in the country. An added factor was Iran's supply of oil to the Syrians at greatly reduced prices.

The Iranian delegation, consisting of both military and religious instructors, recruited a number of young, militant Lebanese clerics affiliated with the Lebanese branch of Al-Da'wa, a radical Iraqi Shi'ite fundamentalist group, and Islamic Amal, a breakaway faction of the Amal movement, which had become more secularized under the leadership of Nabih Berri. Most of the radical clerics who formed the nucleus of Hezbollah's leadership had been educated in the Shi'ite seminaries of southern Iraq, particularly Najaf, where Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khomeini and other ideologues in Iran spent many years in exile. As a result of these ties, they embraced Khomeini's concept of the just jurisconsult (al-wali al-faqih), the ideological basis for clerical rule, enshrined in Iran's 1979 constitution. In a 1985 manifesto, the leadership of Hezbollah pledged loyalty to Khomeini and to the goal of establishing an Islamic state in Lebanon.1

Iranian funds and training led to the rapid growth of Hezbollah's military wing, which devoted itself primarily to the expulsion of the American and European multi-national force (MNF) in Beirut and the defeat of occupying Israeli forces - objectives which corresponded with both Iranian and Syrian interests. After a series of deadly Hezbollah operations against MNF forces, most notably the October 1983 twin suicide bombings which killed around 300 American and French servicemen, MNF forces withdrew in 1984. Israel, facing pressure from Hezbollah and other groups in Lebanon, withdrew from central Lebanon in 1985.

Syria supports Hezbollah, a fundamentalist, islamist organization. They may oppress others they don't agree with, but your statement is only half true.
post #98 of 128
Seg, I'll help you it's like 75% sunni. Look it up.
post #99 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Personally, I am still waiting for how Iran and Syria have been aggressive.

Would you and Seg consider this as aggression, or are you gonna come up with some excuse for it or find some way to blame GWB?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050603/D8AG39V01.html

"Syria test-fired three Scud missiles late last week, reinforcing Israeli worries about Damascus' ability to deliver a missile-borne chemical attack against Israeli civilian targets, Israeli military officials said Friday."

"The tests were timed just days before Lebanon holds its first elections since the withdrawal."

Care to excuse this away?
post #100 of 128
With Syrian agents still having free reign in Lebanon I suppose this is just a coinkidinky?:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...09/1012/NEWS06

"A journalist known for his writings against Syria's presence in Lebanon was killed in a car bombing in Beirut on Thursday, raising tensions in Lebanon just four days after elections for a new parliament began.

The bomb was placed in a vehicle outside the home of the journalist, Samir Kassir, in a predominantly Christian district.

Kassir, a columnist at the Lebanese daily An Nahar, was known for his opposition to Syria's role in Lebanon. He blamed Syria for the Feb. 14 assassination of former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri and wrote repeatedly about Syria's need to pull out of Lebanon. He also led a call for the resignation of Lebanon's pro-Syrian security chiefs."
post #101 of 128
Well it appears that Iran has been qietly wooing China and now the wishy washy russians:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GF04Ad07.html

"To China and Russia, Washington's "democratic reform program" is a thinly disguised method for the US to militarily dispose of unfriendly regimes in order to ensure the country's primacy as the world's sole superpower. The China-Iran-Russia alliance can be considered as Beijing's and Moscow's counterpunch to Washington's global ambitions. From this perspective, Iran is integral to thwarting the Bush administration's foreign policy goals. This is precisely why Beijing and Moscow have strengthened their economic and diplomatic ties with Tehran. It is also why Beijing and Moscow are providing Tehran with increasingly sophisticated weapons."

So we can look forward to Iran and in turn syria getting even bolder as the days ands weeks progress.

I don't suppose you see this as aggression?
post #102 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I don't suppose you see this as aggression?

I don't, It's all in your head.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #103 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well it appears that Iran has been qietly wooing China and now the wishy washy russians:

No, the US is posing a significant political, religious and economic threat to the rest of the world, and countries are simply prepared to defend themselves. And there's nothing in that story that backs up claims of "greatly increased weapons sales". It's simply speculation and accusations from a man who has a personal financial interest in promoting US dominance.
post #104 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, you start your post with an insult. I don't have to address you, there is no rule that says I have converse with someone that reverts to a 3rd grade level of debate.

When you start of with baseless accusations like this:

"I see you waited for Groverat to leave ( true to form ) before posting your reply"

you only prove that you more time than sense.

I mean really, who checks to see if anyone is online when posting? This is nor AIM this is a friggin' bulletin board! You post and get a reply when the other person gets around to reading it.

You are a child mentally, and you prove it every time you post.

Grow up.


Yeah but when someone posts something with obviously bad info ( lacking ) to back it up I'm free to say something just like anyone here. As far as " baseless " you've used the attacking and hang then run away technique many times with me.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #105 of 128
It appears that syria is still bucking the UN.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...print/asection

"Syria, which withdrew its troops from Lebanon six weeks ago, remains in such tight control of their shared 240-mile border that Iranian arms bound for Hezbollah's militia continue to move freely through Syria into Lebanon, according to senior administration officials and diplomats familiar with the operations."

Seems they are taking full advantage of that alliance with Iran.
post #106 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It appears that syria is still bucking the UN.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...print/asection

"Syria, which withdrew its troops from Lebanon six weeks ago, remains in such tight control of their shared 240-mile border that Iranian arms bound for Hezbollah's militia continue to move freely through Syria into Lebanon, according to senior administration officials and diplomats familiar with the operations."

Seems they are taking full advantage of that alliance with Iran.

Boy, those senior administration officials really know their stuff when it comes to lust-worthy targets in the middle-eastt and large weaponry!!

oh yeah . . . are we invading every ountry that 'bucks the UN' now?

One minute the UN is the Evil-boogie man the next minute we'll cry for every 'evil-doer' that looks at it ascance!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #107 of 128
Oooh, ooooooooh. Israel has never respected UN or its resolutions. Why not go after them?!?!?!?!
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #108 of 128
Thread Starter 
More evidence on the US use of terror tactics and even terror organisations:

First consider this item: Teheran rocked by rare bombs

So, someone has been planting bombs in Teheran ahead of the democratic election there. The US has already called on Iranians not to vote (vive democracy) and it stands to reason that the bombers, whoever they are, are anti-government.

The main anti-government group is the MEK which is listed as a terrorist organisation by the State Department. This has their MO written all over it and indeed, there are few other groups it could realistically be.

Now condisder this old report from the Washington Post.

Quote:
Pentagon adviser Richard N. Perle, a strong advocate of war against Iraq, spoke last weekend at a charity event that U.S. officials say may have had ties to an alleged terrorist group seeking to topple the Iranian government and backed by Saddam Hussein.

The day before the function, Treasury sent a letter to the Convention Center warning that the "MEK may have an interest in this event or may attempt to use the event to raise funds." But the Treasury official said officials moved cautiously because in general they did not want to chill possible charitable acts. "This is what makes terrorist financing so complex," he said. "You often have a blending of purposes and interests."

The MEK, though listed on the State Department list of foreign terrorist organizations since 1997, in the past year has been the subject of an administration tug of war over its status. The group maintained for the past decade thousands of fighters armed with tanks, armored vehicles and artillery in three camps northeast of Baghdad along the Iraq-Iran border. U.S. analysts concluded its primary support came from Hussein's government, despite some financial backing from Iranian expatriates.

Nevertheless, some Pentagon officials considered the MEK as a possible vanguard against the Iranian government, which they viewed as a threat in the region. But in May President Bush ordered the group surrounded and disarmed. Even then, reports persisted of an easy-going relationship between the military and the MEK forces, leading the White House to clarify late last year that the MEK is "part of the global war on terrorism" and its members "are being screened for possible involvement in war crimes, terrorism and other criminal activities."

So, the MEK is a possible vanguard in the WOT even though they are terrorists themselves.

And now they are bombing things in Iran. Hmmmm

But there's more...

Quote:
"We will use them, but not de-list them [as terrorists]," predicts Dan Byman, a former Middle East analyst at the CIA now affiliated with the Brookings Institution and the Georgetown School of Foreign Service. "We have control of MEK facilities in Iraq and we are taking advantage of it, and not shutting them down."

I think that's what they call a smoking gun....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #109 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
More evidence on the US use of terror tactics and even terror organisations:

First consider this item: Teheran rocked by rare bombs

So, someone has been planting bombs in Teheran ahead of the democratic election there. The US has already called on Iranians not to vote (vive democracy) and it stands to reason that the bombers, whoever they are, are anti-government.

The main anti-government group is the MEK which is listed as a terrorist organisation by the State Department. This has their MO written all over it and indeed, there are few other groups it could realistically be.

Now condisder this old report from the Washington Post.
So, the MEK is a possible vanguard in the WOT even though they are terrorists themselves.

And now they are bombing things in Iran. Hmmmm

But there's more...

I think that's what they call a smoking gun....

Streeeeeeaaaaattttcch.

You get an A for effort, but an F for conspiracy generation.
post #110 of 128
Thread Starter 
The respected and objective publication The Asia Times has gone on record re this issue now and joined the growing awareness amongst professional and unbiased journalists that there is undeniably a US black-ops campaign operational in Iraq and whose activities range from planting car-bombs to fostering sectarian tensions and targeted assassination a la El Salvador.

I quote the relevant parts of the article with the most interesting analysis highlighted in bold:

Quote:
As Shi'ites and Kurds fought for three months to come up with an Iraqi cabinet, it is emerging from Baghdad that soon a broad front will emerge on the political scene composed of politicians, religious leaders, clan and tribal sheikhs - basically Sunni but with Shi'ite participation - with a single-minded agenda: the end of the US-led occupation.

But the proliferation of what many moderate Sunnis and Shi'ites suspect as being Pentagon-organized black ops is putting the emergence of this front in jeopardy.

Several Iranian websites have widely reported a plan to break up Iraq into three Shi'ite southern mini-states, two Kurdish mini-states and one Sunni mini-state - with Baghdad as the seat of a federal government.

The plan was allegedly conceived by David Philip, a former White House adviser working for the American Foreign Policy Council (AFPC). The AFPC is financed by the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, which has also funded both the ultra-hawkish Project for a New American Century and American Enterprise Institute.

More significantly, the plan is an exact replica of an extreme right-wing Israeli plan to balkanize Iraq - an essential part of the balkanization of the whole Middle East. Curiously, Henry Kissinger was selling the same idea even before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

According to the Pentagon's Defense Science Board, the goal of Rumsfeld's army - the 100-member, US$100 million-a-year Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG) - would carry out secret operations designed to "stimulate reactions" among "terrorist groups", thus exposing them to "counter-attack" by the P2OG. The stock in trade of Rumsfeld's army is assassinations, sabotage, deception, the whole arsenal of black ops. Iraq is the perfect lab for it. "Iraqification" means in fact "Salvadorization". No wonder old faces are back in the game. James Steele, leader of a Special Forces team in El Salvador in the early 1980s, is in Iraq. Steve Casteel, a former top official involved in the "drug wars" in Bolivia, Peru and Colombia, is also in Iraq. He is a senior adviser in - where else - the Interior Ministry, to which friendly militias are subordinated.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #111 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The respected and objective publication The Asia Times has gone on record re this issue now and joined the growing awareness amongst professional and unbiased journalists that there is undeniably a US black-ops campaign operational in Iraq and whose activities range from planting car-bombs to fostering sectarian tensions and targeted assassination a la El Salvador.

I quote the relevant parts of the article with the most interesting analysis highlighted in bold:

You actually buy into anything, don't you?

The whole article is flimsy.
post #112 of 128
Thread Starter 
More details are emerging of the attempts to derail the Iranian democratic process.

The disruption of the election has struck at all candidates regardless of political orientation and seems clearly designed to target the emerging Iranian democratic movement as a whole rather than any political party.

Beatings and intimidation by gangs of hired thugs are being increasingly reported and it is now apparent that whoever is bankrolling the chaos has access to a large fund of money for the purpose.

Quote:
Mr Khatami did not identify who was behind the interference, which he said included "disruption of gatherings, beatings, illegal pamphlets and spreading lies to ruin candidates' reputations regardless of political inclination".

In addition to violence on the campaign trial, Iran has been rocked by a series of bombings in recent days that left up to 10 people dead.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #113 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
More details are emerging of the attempts to derail the Iranian democratic process.

The disruption of the election has struck at all candidates regardless of political orientation and seems clearly designed to target the emerging Iranian democratic movement as a whole rather than any political party.

Beatings and intimidation by gangs of hired thugs are being increasingly reported and it is now apparent that whoever is bankrolling the chaos has access to a large fund of money for the purpose.

So, is there any possibility that this is an effort by anyone else BESIDES the US?

Or are you unwilling to consider any other possibility?
post #114 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
So, is there any possibility that this is an effort by anyone else BESIDES the US?

Yes.

Someone the US is paying.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #115 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes.

Someone the US is paying.

So what you really mean to say is NO.

It's nice to see a person that can withstand the forces of reasonableness and open-mindedness with such unwavering rigidity. Be strong, my friend, be strong.
post #116 of 128
Some required reading, if you want to understand what is going on in Iraq.

WARNING!!!! THIS INFORMATION MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR IDEOLOGY.

http://www.michaelyon.blogspot.com/

Extremely enlightening.
post #117 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Some required reading, if you want to understand what is going on in Iraq.

WARNING!!!! THIS INFORMATION MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR IDEOLOGY.

http://www.michaelyon.blogspot.com/

Extremely enlightening.

Comedy gold -this is the motherlode !

So much to choose from, let's just go with this for now:

Quote:
An American soldier told me today that he has been telling kids to stay away from his unit so they won't be killed. This is harder, on all parties, than it might seem to anyone who hasn't seen firsthand how much the kids here love the soldiers. The sound of heavily armored trucks rumbling through the streets has the same effect on these kids as the tinkling bells of the "ice cream man" back home. Imagine having to tell kids to run the other way when they hear the ice cream truck on a summer afternoon.

As far as propaganda goes this ain't Goebells - not in the least sophisticated but simplistic, inane and unbelievable to anyone with even the smallest scintilla of reasoning faculties left.

But then, sadly, given the state of the target audience, it barely needs to be more than that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #118 of 128
I didn't know (false) kid love was a measure of success and justice.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #119 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Comedy gold -this is the motherlode !

So much to choose from, let's just go with this for now:



As far as propaganda goes this ain't Goebells - not in the least sophisticated but simplistic, inane and unbelievable to anyone with even the smallest scintilla of reasoning faculties left.

But then, sadly, given the state of the target audience, it barely needs to be more than that.

Well you obviously have no intentions of seeing the truth. You also must believe this is just a good photoshop job:

http://home.comcast.net/~insideiraq/kids.jpg

and this soldier's account is false:

"They never talk about the reconstruction projects underway, the smiles, the many people who thank us for giving them their country back and beg us not to leave too soon, the warm greetings and the kids that run out to our Guntrucks waving whenever we drive by." - http://strengthandhonor.typepad.com/...the_bbc_1.html

this is just false, right?:

"Out on the streets in these impoverished areas east of the Tigris River, they are like Pied Pipers, leading a trail of dozens of children behind them within minutes of arriving in a neighborhood.

I dont think its because they are special soldiers, even though their mothers would say they are. I think its just because they are soldiers. Period. The children go absolutely bananas over them and get so close to them in such large numbers that it almost gets scary.

Its a mixed blessing for the soldiers. While they know the presence of the kids in such large numbers can lower the threat level, and the kids sometimes tell them where the bombs are planted, the little ones are relentlessly curious, exceedingly friendly and have no clue about personal space. It can try anyones patience." - http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f...925-624766.php

and this:



and this picture taken from a armored vehicle:


and this one:


"It wasn't the report of a rifle or the shock wave of an IED that broke the silence. It was the keening cry that seemed to blaze a sonic trail behind the children racing one another back to the village. As the vehicles pulled into overwatch positons the sound only grew, until the sound of children's breathless laughter pierced the armor and drowned out the growling turbo diesels. By time the engines shuddered to a halt the vehicles were awash in a universe of smiling children and hopeful parents."

I could go on and on and on, but what's the point. the MSM has spoken.
post #120 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well you obviously have no intentions of seeing the truth. You also must believe this is just a good photoshop job:

http://home.comcast.net/~insideiraq/kids.jpg

and this soldier's account is false:

"They never talk about the reconstruction projects underway, the smiles, the many people who thank us for giving them their country back and beg us not to leave too soon, the warm greetings and the kids that run out to our Guntrucks waving whenever we drive by." - http://strengthandhonor.typepad.com/...the_bbc_1.html

this is just false, right?:

"Out on the streets in these impoverished areas east of the Tigris River, they are like Pied Pipers, leading a trail of dozens of children behind them within minutes of arriving in a neighborhood.

I dont think its because they are special soldiers, even though their mothers would say they are. I think its just because they are soldiers. Period. The children go absolutely bananas over them and get so close to them in such large numbers that it almost gets scary.

Its a mixed blessing for the soldiers. While they know the presence of the kids in such large numbers can lower the threat level, and the kids sometimes tell them where the bombs are planted, the little ones are relentlessly curious, exceedingly friendly and have no clue about personal space. It can try anyones patience." - http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f...925-624766.php

and this:



and this picture taken from a armored vehicle:


and this one:


"It wasn't the report of a rifle or the shock wave of an IED that broke the silence. It was the keening cry that seemed to blaze a sonic trail behind the children racing one another back to the village. As the vehicles pulled into overwatch positons the sound only grew, until the sound of children's breathless laughter pierced the armor and drowned out the growling turbo diesels. By time the engines shuddered to a halt the vehicles were awash in a universe of smiling children and hopeful parents."

I could go on and on and on, but what's the point. the MSM has spoken.


Well that's one side of it. The other is where they just want us out of there. It's easy to take pictures like that to try to portray something one way when it's not the whole picture. Also why didn't we do this everywhere in the world this is happening then? Hmmm?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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