Milton Friedman: Legalize It! - Page 8

I have an 8 year old and he can not only figure out how to roll a joint, he is probably capable of driving my car, if only from observation.

You definitely don't have kids!

Ages of my kids: 25, 22, 17, 10, 4, but they do tend to be dreamy late-bloomers.

And anyway, why would it be worse for a child to get ahold of dope than beer?

Naples: Alcohol used to be available only to those breaking the law. We (re)legalized it. And clearly, it's just out of control now. There's no way to regulate it or control who's going to have access.

You have all these kids and think an 8 year old is incapable of learning how to roll a joint?

Perhaps late bloomers is an understatement. I mean my daughter knew how to use the computer at age 2, at age 12 she's one of the best artists I know. My ten year old taught himself how to play the drums I have stored in my garage, that was last year, when he was 9.

Maybe you are right - but they wouldn't think of it on their own unless they saw their parents doing it. If pot was legal, most people would buy pre-rolled mj cigarettes anyway, so the point is moot I guess.

Anyway, 8 year olds would not have the desire to try stuff like that - experimentation like that starts much later. My kids could sneak beer, but (with daughters at least), none of them have done it before age 15.

a well rolled joint is not an easy thing to produce. you really have to learn to do it well. it takes a lot of practice. beginner's often roll too loose (the cherry fails to sustain), or too tight (air can't pass through the filter). a crapjoint won't smoke, or worse: can fall apart, forcing all your hard earned weed onto the street, when the wind suddenly catches it, and then ur left there just holding the filter, saying "fuck, i just rolled that." /happened to my "friend"

i dont think legality will lead to more driving accidents. i dont believe that premise, that weed significantly impairs driving ability. presence in the blood doesn't mean intoxication, or even moderate lingering effect. marijuana remains traceable in the body for a long period of time (some estimate a month). scientific studies have shown, and personal experience dictates, that marijuana's effects start up within seconds (depending on the potency and some peculiarities to the particular plant). the main effects reduce within a few hours. residual effects are gone a few hours after that.

not to say it doesn't have its negative aspects. kids shouldn't be smoking. it probably fucks with the brain in god awful ways, particularly for a brain that is still developing. i believe a free and responsible adult should be afforded the availability to enjoy a masochistic haze though, without the real and unending fear of JAIL.

i think if it were legal, in a commercial sense, some enterprising company would start growing and selling the crop. thanks to the wonder of capitalism, a commercial company would bring the price down, and would force illegitimate business (the hard drug dealers with guns and death who happen to peddle mari) out of the market. if for no other reason, we could significantly hurt that segment of criminality. the criminals (dealers who kill people) would have to become real people or drop mari from their catalog. government could tax the interstate sale, and have a nice little income source there.

Every kid knows what smoking is just from TV and watching people they come in contact with. I would venture they know before they know how to talk. You are right about one thing, though, parental example is key.

http://www.no-smoking.org/feb03/02-24-03-2.html

"Adolescents with two parents who smoked were 3.8 times more likely to smoke cigarettes than were adolescents with two parents who had quit smoking, and three times more likely to smoke than were adolescents with a non-smoking mother and an ex-smoking father."

I would assume smoking pot would have the same effects.

If the government said that pot is ok, children everywhere would try it. "Why not, it's legal now, right?" would be the phrase of the day.

Look at the perception of oral sex since a President said it wasn't really sex:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ract/115/4/845

"Conclusions. Given that adolescents perceive oral sex as less risky, more prevalent, and more acceptable than vaginal sex, it stands to reason that adolescents are more likely to engage in oral sex. It is important that health care providers and others who work with youths recognize adolescents' views about oral sex and broaden their clinical preventive services to include screening, counseling, and education about oral sex."

The same will happen with pot legalization. This is very evident to me since many grown-ups here say things like "It is safer to drive a car after ten joints than it is to drive after four beers" or "Our attempt to control it (MJ) IS the problem." or "I drive better when I'm high"

All these false perceptions about pot will only be reinforced through legalization. Being free to smoke pot for recreational purposes does nothing for society. It actually hurts it. Medical MJ has a future for medical reasons only. So once again this whole legalization thing is purely selfish on the part of those fighting for it, IMO.

By your same logic so does alchohol and cigarettes. Do you propose to make them illegal also?

You can extend it to unhealthy food, risky activities like hang gliding and sky diving. Maybe we should have mandatory excercise? Go to jail if you don't run 5 miles per week or more?

Every time you bring alcohol into the equation you hurt your argument, Alcohol abuse is out of control in this country, Despite being legal. So yeah, I don't care if they make it illegal. I don't abuse it nor need it to survive.

No kidding! Man, I have to step over hoardes of drunks at work every day, and gawd, my colleagues are drunk ALL THE TIME. It's crazy. Last week, THREE drunk drivers ran into my house. Hell, Sunday morning, my preacher pulled out a fifth of everclear and downed it right before us.

Questions:

1) What constitutes "alcohol abuse"? Dependency? Spilling?
2) Facts, please. Please show me some numbers that clearly indicate that "alcohol abuse" is "out of control in this country."
3) Please demonstrate the correlation between the legality of a vice and its going "out of control."


And that's where we differ. Wait! No! That's not what I meant! Aw, fuggit.

Google search - top of page:

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=647292005

Drink and drug abuse by hospital workers is revealed

on the same google search:

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/press/2004/NESARCNews.htm

"The number of American adults who abuse alcohol or are alcohol dependent rose from 13.8 million (7.41 percent) in 1991-1992 to 17.6 million (8.46 percent) in 2001-2002, according to results from the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC), a study directed by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)."

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa59.htm

"By the time they reach the eighth grade, nearly 50 percent of adolescents have had at least one drink, and over 20 percent report having been drunk (1). Approximately 20 percent of 8th graders and almost 50 percent of 12th graders have consumed alcohol within the past 30 days (1). Among 12th graders, almost 30 percent report drinking on 3 or more occasions per month (2). Approximately 30 percent of 12th graders engage in heavy episodic drinking, now popularly termed binge drinkingthat is, having at least five or more drinks on one occasion within the past 2 weeksand it is estimated that 20 percent do so on more than one occasion (2)."

http://health.yahoo.com/ency/healthwise/tp17749/uq2408

"About 75% of high school students have tried alcohol. More alarming, about 28% of teens have had a recent episode of heavy drinking (more than 5 drinks within a couple of hours). The leading cause of death for teens and young adults is auto accidents related to alcohol. Drinking also lowers inhibitions, which can lead teens to have unprotected sex, increasing the chance of pregnancy and infection with sexually transmitted diseases, such as herpes, chlamydia, and HIV (AIDS).
About 40% of teens have tried marijuana one or more times, while about 22% of teens currently use marijuana. Teen use is troubling because marijuana can hinder memory, problem-solving, and learning. It can also cause mood swings, anxiety, and depression."

Need I continue, or is this just government propaganda?

ooh! Alcohol abuse is rampant!! If the hospital workers drink, what's next? School janitors?!


Damn! A ONE PERCENT INCREASE! The sky is falling!!!


Why is this anecdotal evidence here? Kids are going to try to drink. They're also going to try to have sex. Why is this an indicator of anything?

[quote]
http://health.yahoo.com/ency/healthwise/tp17749/uq2408

"About 75% of high school students have tried alcohol. More alarming, about 28% of teens have had a recent episode of heavy drinking (more than 5 drinks within a couple of hours)."

OMG! Teens went out and had more than five drinks in a row! AHHHH!!!


The only real evidence you've show here that alcohol abuse is out of control is that reported incidences of it went up 1%. Everything else is evidence that teenagers will drink.

Look. My point is that you're being more than a little Cassandra-ish here.

I love when you challenge me.

From http://www.cdc.gov

"From 1979 through 1992, a total of 1782 FAS cases were reported among 9,057,624 births, a rate of 2.0 per 10,000 births (Figure 1). During 1992, the BDMP identified 67 infants born with FAS, representing a rate of 3.7 per 10,000 births. This rate is an increase of more than threefold that for 1979 (1.0 per 10,000 births)."

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/courts/Stati...r_fy_2005.html

"The increase in jury trials appears to be related to the increase of DUI charges filed during the corresponding time periods."

"Tucson City Court has experienced an increase of 283 DUI charges (14%) when comparing the first quarters of fiscal year 2004 and 2005."

http://www.1800duilaws.com/article/female_dui.asp

"Drunk driving enforcement has historically targeted men. However, the number of DUI arrests involving women has increased dramatically over the last twenty years. Twenty years ago, under 8% of the DUI cases prosecuted in the United States involved female defendants; in 1997, that number climbed to over 15%."

I can fill pages of this thread with this kind of stuff, if you insist.

But I think it's clear. It is to me anyway.

Good. I'll keep at it.

SNIP (for now, as it'd be more of the same response from me)


That's great. Fill away. It doesn't MEAN ANYTHING because you never defined the terms like I asked you to. Once we agree on what we're talking about, THEN we can discuss.


Indeed. It ought to be.

NaplesX is lost in spin. He didnt see any of my posts. He thinks by throwing his kid in jail for 5 yrs when he gets caught with weed will solve the problem He thinks that by keeping it illegal stops the dealers pushing hard stuff along with that joint. LOL, He thinks that by keeping it illegal will keep our taxes down when Building more police state,buildings,beauracracy, LOL. Naples X just dont get it. 50 years and no progress but we did pay billions over those years. Time for new idea's not Naples'X throw everyone in jail if they arent brainwashed as me philosophy. Rant not over, I bet he wants to build more prisons then schools also. NaplesX is Lost in Spin. I bet you think the Earth was made in 7 days.

Now you know how most of the lefties feel a lot of the time.

I can get pot very easily. If i want it, I will get it.
I prefer to smoke pot occasionaley than drink. It relaxes me and eases my fibromyalgia and colitis pain. But I only smoke it when I need it (which proves its not physically addicting).

In support of Naples, if you have never smoked you don't know how mild it really is. I would never touch coke or meth or anything that strong or dangerous, but pot smoked in moderation is no big deal.

Legalize it, tax it, put police resources to better use, and sell cleaner pot with less toxins in it. Sounds like a winner all around to me.

No it does not.


I have smoked before and it is not always mild. There is a huge variety of pot - from mild to potent.


Studies show a correlation between drug use and crime - violent crimes such as homicides, assaults and domestic violence. Why is this? Simple - drugs cause violent behavior.

There will be more violent behavior due to more people taking drugs. Same police chasing more crimes caused by legalization.

You hope

Pot is not physically addicting. It could be psyhcologically addicting but so can chocolate or anything that makes you feel good.
I would find it hard to beleive that pot smoking causes violence. Other drugs, yes, liquor definitely, pot NO.
The only thing that increases with people smoking pot are sales of White Castle, Taco Bell, and twinkies (and devil dogs, ring dings, ding dongs, etc).

But making alcohol illegal did not decrease usage, when they tried it during the 20s. It vastly increased crime, police costs, and the power of gangsters (just like marajuana prohibition does now).

If you look back at alcohol prohibition of the 20s, you will see that marajuana (and any other drug) prohibition now is making this country worse.

Marajuana does not cause violent behavior - I can't even believe that you would think that. Oh wait - "drugs" cause violent behavior, and I bet MJ is not one of those drugs.

Your consistency problem is an argument for legalization and corporate manufacture. THC counts could be regulated, and printed on the pack of MJ cigarettes. You could buy the mild, medium, or "super head rush" varieties and know that quality control was good.

And anyone talking to an environmentalist, and people talking to the anti-globlisation movement (and anarchists arguing for more government intervention in trade, makes my head spin), and the "hate all corporations" crowd, and all columbia allumni within 3 years of graduating.

Does that include Frau Coulter?

Most definitely. "We should go to Afghanistan and convert them to christianity" - puke. Although she does not look young enough to have graduated in the last 3 years.

Tell that to NYPD:

"Police officials in New York City, who spent years battling a crack scourge that sent the murder rate soaring, say they are now seeing increasing violence among dealers of marijuana, a drug that they say no longer fits its laid-back image." -Violent Crimes Undercut Marijuana's Mellow Image, The New York Times, May 19, 2001

The level of violence still pales in comparison to the carnage of the turf wars between rival crack gangs a decade ago. But officials say they believe that the number of marijuana-related shootings has gone up in recent years and that investigators now routinely find guns, includig submachine guns, when they execute search warrants at marijuana stash houses." - Violent Crimes Undercut Marijuana's Mellow Image, The New York Times, May 19, 2001

"Law officers report that more than half the youths they charge with crimes test positive for marijuana." - Study: Marijuana devastates lives, Rocky Mountain News, April 1, 1998

"The first national survey of probationers, conducted for the Bureau of Justice Statistics, found that 46.8 percent of probationers had used either alcohol, drugs, or both at the time of their offense. This was lower than use among incarcerated criminals at the time of their offenses. Among jail inmates 60 percent had used alcohol, drugs or both when they committed their crimes; among state prison inmates, the figure was 49 percent."... "The most commonly used drug was marijuana. Among all probationers, 67 percent said they had used marijuana or hashish at least once in their lives..." - Drugs, Alcohol Dominate in U.S. Crime Nearly Half of all Probationers Under the Influence at Time of Their Offenses, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, March 23, 1998

"The Island County Sheriffs Departments annual report is not finished yet, but it shows youth arrests have increased 32 percent countywide over the last five years. In an early draft of the report, the availability of drugs is cited as one reason for the increase in crimes." - Breaking cycle of drug use takes time, Whidbey News Times, April 23, 1997

and on and on and on ....

war on drugs -> higer drug prices -> more violence among dealers

note that it was dealers who were violent, not users.

Blind.

more than half of the youths use MJ -> more than half of the youths with crimes use MJ

just like:

more than half of the youths have brown eyes -> more than half of the youths with crimes have brown eyes.

BROWN EYES CAUSE CRIME !!!

No, you just have no counter argument to the truth.

Yes you are.

every single one of my friends has smoked marijuana in their life. Not one of them is even remotely violent.

What we're getting is a lower class of dealers.

Legalize it and get rid of the dealers.

Visits to emergency rooms by drug

1. Cocaine was involved in 125,921 ED visits, or 20 percent of all drug-related ED visits.
2. Marijuana was involved in 79,663, or nearly 13 percent, of all drug-related ED visits.
3. Heroin was involved in 47,604, or nearly 8 percent, of all drug-related ED visits.
4. Stimulants, including amphetamines and methamphetamine, were involved in 42,538, or nearly 7 percent of all drug-related ED visits.
5. Stimulants, including amphetamines and methamphetamine, were involved in 42,538, or nearly 7 percent of all drug-related ED visits.

That makes pot #2 on this most dangerous drugs list.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/

After alcohol, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), marijuana's major psychoactive constituent, is the drug which is found most often in the blood of drivers involved in road accidents." - Marijuana use and driving, Institute for Human Psychopharmacology

Between 1991 and 2001, the percentage of 8th graders who used marijuana doubled from one in ten to one in five. - Monitoring the Future. National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), 2002.

Each year, more teens enter treatment with a primary diagnosis of marijuana dependence than for all other illicit drugs combined. - Treatment Episodes Data Set 1992-2000, National Admissions to Substance Abuse Treatment Services. SAMHSA. DASIS Series S-17, DHHS Pub. No. (SMA) 02-3727, 2002.

Kids are using marijuana at an earlier age. In the late 1960s fewer than half of those using marijuana for the first time were under 18. By 2001, about two-thirds (67 percent) of marijuana users were younger than 18. - Trends in Initiation of Substance Use. Based on the 2002 National Survey on Drug Use and Health. SAMHSA, 2003.

on and on and on...

you shouldnt drive when impaired by anything.
kids shouldnt smoke pot or drink.

everyone knows this.
kids drink also and its legal.

pot should be legal and controlled. must be 21 or over, etc. just like alcohol

Prohibition is working pretty good then. Worth the 15 billion ?

But it will not stop the current problem. You know it. That's the real issue here, how to best protect our youth.

Does anyone care about kids anymore, or are we all just concerned with getting our buzz on?

I am disgusted with humanity after this thread.

Dude, I am providing you with countless sources that are saying just the opposite of what you are. I'm not the one making this argument. Your pot smoking peers are - along with the guys that are arresting them and treating them.

Prohibition, or lack of it, will have no affect on weather or not our kids use drugs. It may put them in jail, put them in contact with criminals, and kill them with gang violence, but prohibition will not reduce usage.

None of your arguments are compelling. The war on drugs is a failure, and you say "pour in more money, maybe then it will start working".

If the drug czar was a CEO, he would be sacked by the board. The business plan for the war on drugs is a bad one, they are guarenteed to fail, no matter how much you spend.

We. Are. At. War! Don't you all get it? Now, NOW, unlike any other time, it is absolutely crucial for us to not question the powers that be or the rules that have been handed down to us from our enlightened forebears.

Fore bares.

Four bears.

Damn. I've got the munchies. And I don't even like pot.