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Milton Friedman: Legalize It! - Page 2

post #41 of 368
The Police State doesnt want it legal, They want more Laws and more things illegal so they can get into our lives and make money off us. The system thrives on this because we have to pay for all those Judges,Cops,Jail Houses,Paper pushers,the Buildings,cooks,jailers etc. They want more things illegal so they can grow Their system and we the tax payer get to pay for these foolish laws.

By Keeping Pot illegal they are looking out for Big Tobacco,Beer Companies,Alcohol, Drug Dealers,Judges, cops,lawyers etc.

By making Pot Legal we can keep it away from kids, we can tax it , we can educate and we the tax payers can save money. The System will have non of that.

Govt is a Force onto itself growing and consuming our tax dollars for senseless law.

Reminds me of idiots in S.C who decided to pay thousands of dollars to give birth control to Deer rather then the bullet because of over population. They love to waste money and the Weed laws are no different. Its about Money ,Power and control.
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post #42 of 368
Its not a left right thing either . . . . William F Buckley and I hold the same idea


But it is interesting to take the tired Right critique of the Left in light of this and see the criminalization of Pot as a sort of Big Mother Society: we need to keep it illegal because someone might get hurt!!!

Need to have big mommy Government watch out for us at all times hunh?
Keep us from hurtin our wittle selves with bad-bad-drug . . . or maybe gettin in a car . .

Guess what . . . . life is hazard, you can't have government laws keep us absolutely safe from everything, attempting to do so risks totalitarianism . . . . just because it in the name of the Law rather than in the name of 'the Collective' does not make it any less potentialy so . . .

Nice way to look at it hunh Naples?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #43 of 368
Quote:
But it is interesting to take the tired Right critique of the Left in light of this and see the criminalization of Pot as a sort of Big Mother Society: we need to keep it illegal because someone might get hurt!!!

Really the "war on drugs" Republicans are a bunch of hypocrits. They want big government looking over our shoulder when it matches their sense of morality, and complain about it when it doesn't.
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post #44 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
My kids are already aware of pot and it's effects.

Obviously not, if you are telling them that people get high and crash cars like they do when they are drunk, and that people who smoke pot will break in to your house and steal stuff to support their ravaging addiction.

Why don't you just rent Reefer Madness and make them watch that?

As usual, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, but are cocksure that you are completely right.
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post #45 of 368
People mellow out with weed not the otherway around like Loose Sloppy Alcohol. Lets not Mix alcohol and weed because the two are very different. Weed is much more safer. Alcohol kills many, weed does not.
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post #46 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
They should legalize it so Ricky Williams can play football again!

I agree, Stupidist thing Miami ever did was getting rid of the best runner they had in 20 years. They figure out they need a running game after 2 decades of Marino and no superBowl and what do they do? Loose a great runner over something stupid like weed. What they should do is have a bowl ready for ricky
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post #47 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
He's probably been reading that nasty Declaration of Independence again.



It's a terrible document. It allows you to even abolish things of those being governed feel they have not consented to what is happening.

Nick

We did consent to the Constitution, its emphasis on individual liberties, and its limitations on the power of governments and majorities. And we can change the Constitution if we want to, though it takes a lot more than a majority of public opinion to do so.

There's also a legal process through which we enact laws, and that takes more than just a majority of public opinion, too. On a federal level, it has to pass two houses of Congress, be signed by a president, and survive any challenges in the courts.

But I'm not sure where this discussion is going. What are you and Naples trying to say?
post #48 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Usage decreases when you legalise a drug.

That, or it does not increase - thats what the studies and evidence show.
Quote:
"The available evidence suggests that removal of the prohibition against possession itself (decriminalization) does not increase cannabis use. ... This prohibition inflicts harms directly and is costly. Unless it can be shown that the removal of criminal penalties will increase use of other harmful drugs, ... it is difficult to see what society gains."
- Evaluating alternative cannabis regimes. British Journal of Psychiatry. February 2001.

Link
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post #49 of 368
Why do people do this shit anyway?

The last thing I want is to be stoned out. I want a drug that makes me think 1000 times faster!
post #50 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Why do people do this shit anyway?

The last thing I want is to be stoned out. I want a drug that makes me think 1000 times faster!

You could alternate - 1000x faster, then stoned, then 1000x faster, then stoned 8)
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post #51 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
That kind of thinking, carried too far, would indeed make you a rebel -- and not in any glorious romantic sense of "rebel" either.

There are limits to what even a majority can and should be able to do. The majority shouldn't be able to limit the free speech of a minority, for instance.

Although not specifically written into the US Constitution, the history of jurisprudence often supports the concept that no law, regardless of whether or not a majority supports that law, should limit what citizens can do without a legitimate and significant overriding public good at stake. If what you're trying to say is that the simple fact that a majority desires to make a drug illegal is all the excuse the government needs to make that drug illegal -- no obligation whatsoever required to justify the law beyond "what the majority wants, the majority gets" -- and that you support throwing people in jail merely for not automatically bending to will of that (very hypocritical) majority, what you offer is hardly a very promising or enlightened view of how to create a free society.

It's called a constitutional republic, this America thing we have here.

I think the society is pretty free here already. Um, if smoking pot is socially unacceptable here, there are other places in the world that it is. People have the freedom to go there. No-one is stopping them.

As a matter of fact, everyone has the right to smoke pot in their own house. They are free to smoke pot anywhere as long as they are willing to accept responsibility and consequences to their action.

I don't see the problem.
post #52 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
We did consent to the Constitution, its emphasis on individual liberties, and its limitations on the power of governments and majorities. And we can change the Constitution if we want to, though it takes a lot more than a majority of public opinion to do so.

There's also a legal process through which we enact laws, and that takes more than just a majority of public opinion, too. On a federal level, it has to pass two houses of Congress, be signed by a president, and survive any challenges in the courts.

But I'm not sure where this discussion is going. What are you and Naples trying to say?

Every thing in the US government is about majority rule. You elect representative by it, presidents that appoint judges by it, and thus laws and changes in laws by it.

Democracy is majority rule:

"government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections" - Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law

Man, I learned this stuff back in 6th grade, perhaps earlier.

Or are we rewriting the dictionary for you "progressives"?
post #53 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It's called a constitutional republic, this America thing we have here.

I think the society is pretty free here already. Um, if smoking pot is socially unacceptable here, there are other places in the world that it is. People have the freedom to go there. No-one is stopping them.

As a matter of fact, everyone has the right to smoke pot in their own house. They are free to smoke pot anywhere as long as they are willing to accept responsibility and consequences to their action.

I don't see the problem.

You become more knuckle-dragging by each post: America, Love it er leave it ya pinkos!!

every hear about caring about your country enough to want to make it act like it should?

Civic responsibility demands that if you don't like what your country is doing that you speak up, not turn tail and leave our beloved in the hands of reactionary neolithicatives!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #54 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Man, I learned this stuff back in 6th grade, perhaps earlier.

It would also seem that's where you stopped learning about it.
post #55 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It's called a constitutional republic, this America thing we have here.

Yes. You should dig into what that means a bit more one of these days.
Quote:
I think the society is pretty free here already.

Ah, so once a certain level of freedom is reached, it's okay to arbitrarily limit that freedom, since we've got enough of that freedom stuff as it is? Are you worried this freedom this is getting a bit out of hand?
Quote:
Um, if smoking pot is socially unacceptable here, there are other places in the world that it is. People have the freedom to go there. No-one is stopping them.

That's your notion of a free society? That something is merely "socially unacceptable" is high enough a bar for passing laws that limit other people's freedom, and being so kind as to "permit" anyone who doesn't like the laws to leave their homes and families and careers behind to find another country makes passing any majority-backed law okay?
Quote:
As a matter of fact, everyone has the right to smoke pot in their own house. They are free to smoke pot anywhere as long as they are willing to accept responsibility and consequences to their action.

That's the most ludicrous notion of "freedom" that I've ever heard. It approaches the level of Orwellian Newspeak. By this "logic" people were "free" to criticize Stalin in the old USSR as long as they were willing to risk being sent off to a gulag and/or shot for exercising their "freedom".
Quote:
I don't see the problem.

And that, Mr. NaplesX, is the problem.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #56 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Every thing in the US government is about majority rule.

So presidents are elected by a majority vote of the people? The constitution is amended by a majority vote of the people? The constitutionality of a law is decided by majority vote of the people? There are no constraints on government action, as long as you can get a simple majority?

Republicans used to be the ones to always point out that the US is a republic rather than a pure democracy. What happened?
post #57 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Civic responsibility demands that if you don't like what your country is doing that you speak up, not turn tail and leave our beloved in the hands of reactionary neolithicatives!!

Exactly.
Here's a shocking fact that NaplesX has probably not even considered - not everyone in favor of decriminalizing pot is in favor of it so that they can go get stoned in public without worrying about getting arrested.

Some people are disturbed by the tens of billions of dollars wasted every year on the War Against Drugs, and on the incarceration of people whose only crime was smoking something that wasn't tobacco, and the fact that we have to release violent offenders early because the jails are full.
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post #58 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Ah, so once a certain level of freedom is reached, it's okay to arbitrarily limit that freedom, since we've got enough of that freedom stuff as it is? Are you worried this freedom this is getting a bit out of hand?

Nope. It is about majority rule. Always has been. You can twist it to be about oppression or whatever. Democracy means majority rule.

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
That's your notion of a free society? That something is merely "socially unacceptable" is high enough a bar for passing laws that limit other people's freedom, and being so kind as to "permit" anyone who doesn't like the laws to leave their homes and families and careers behind to find another country makes passing any majority-backed law okay?

Well, you see that's what you "progressives" want to do, isn't it? In your circle it's socially acceptable, so therefor you wish to impose your "social values" on everyone else, despite being in the national minority on this issue.

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
That's the most ludicrous notion of "freedom" that I've ever heard. It approaches the level of Orwellian Newspeak. By this "logic" people were "free" to criticize Stalin in the old USSR as long as they were willing to risk being sent off to a gulag and/or shot for exercising their "freedom".

Not really. No-one is forcing you to leave. It happens to be an option afforded to you. You can stay, just don't sell pot to minors or smoke it in public. That's all.

I like the "progressives" are using the word Gulag when talking about America. Brilliant perspective. Going to jail for possession of a controlled substance is now comparable to a Stalin era gulag where millions died of starvation.

post #59 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Exactly.
Here's a shocking fact that NaplesX has probably not even considered - not everyone in favor of decriminalizing pot is in favor of it so that they can go get stoned in public without worrying about getting arrested.

Some people are disturbed by the tens of billions of dollars wasted every year on the War Against Drugs, and on the incarceration of people whose only crime was smoking something that wasn't tobacco, and the fact that we have to release violent offenders early because the jails are full.

It's about values.
post #60 of 368
Quote:
therefor you wish to impose your "social values" on everyone else, despite being in the national minority on this issue.

Not really. No-one is forcing you to leave. It happens to be an option afforded to you. You can stay, just don't sell pot to minors or smoke it in public. That's all.

1. It is the government that is forcing *your* moral values on everyone else - not the other way around.

2. Current laws make it illegal to smoke pot in your own home. If all the laws made illegal was selling to minors and smoking in public, then I would be happy - but the laws are not written that way.
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post #61 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It's about values.

Those values are hurting the country.
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post #62 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
So presidents are elected by a majority vote of the people? The constitution is amended by a majority vote of the people? The constitutionality of a law is decided by majority vote of the people? There are no constraints on government action, as long as you can get a simple majority?

Republicans used to be the ones to always point out that the US is a republic rather than a pure democracy. What happened?

Once again, I'm not a republican and yes everything is by simple majority rule, either directly or indirectly. That's the way it is supposed to be. One man, one vote.

What a concept!
post #63 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, I'm not a republican and yes everything is my simple majority rule, either directly or indirectly. That's the way it is supposed to be. One man, one vote.

What a concept!

You tell people to leave the country that nothing is stopping them.

You also say that you are not a republican.

What are you if you are not a republican?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #64 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
1. It is the government that is forcing *your* moral values on everyone else - not the other way around.

2. Current laws make it illegal to smoke pot in your own home. If all the laws made illegal was selling to minors and smoking in public, then I would be happy - but the laws are not written that way.

The "government" IS THE PEOPLE by way of majority rule.
post #65 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
You tell people to leave the country that nothing is stopping them.

You also say that you are not a republican.

What are you if you are not a republican?

Fellows

A human-American
post #66 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
2. Current laws make it illegal to smoke pot in your own home. If all the laws made illegal was selling to minors and smoking in public, then I would be happy - but the laws are not written that way.

Look if you just can't stop yourself, and you need a hit, go in your bathroom and hit it. You get high, no-one sees you. You're really happy, I'm happy. No-one is effected by your preferences, unless you operate equipment, drive a car, try to post on AO...

Are you telling me you don't realize these things?

post #67 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
We did consent to the Constitution, its emphasis on individual liberties, and its limitations on the power of governments and majorities. And we can change the Constitution if we want to, though it takes a lot more than a majority of public opinion to do so.

There's also a legal process through which we enact laws, and that takes more than just a majority of public opinion, too. On a federal level, it has to pass two houses of Congress, be signed by a president, and survive any challenges in the courts.

But I'm not sure where this discussion is going. What are you and Naples trying to say?

Oh I was just having fun with a little sidebar. The reality is that our government is still run with the consent of the majority. If we didn't have that be true, then Civil War is possible and we already have the proof.

On the discussion topic, I was hoping for more people looking at the whole goverment granting rights not because they are proper, inalienable, etc. but because there is money to be made or costs that are not incurred. I'm not much of a slippery-slope guy but I do see more and more instances in our society where people are claiming rights can be withdrawn because of their cost or granted to save money. To me, it is a troubling trend. Our human rights should be more than a math problem that we hope adds up correctly.

So marijuana isn't right because it does no harm, or wrong because it does cause harm it is right or wrong because it costs or saves X dollars.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #68 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Look if you just can't stop yourself, and you need a hit, go in your bathroom and hit it. You get high, no-one sees you. You're really happy, I'm happy. No-one is effected by your preferences, unless you operate equipment, drive a car, try to post on AO...

Are you telling me you don't realize these things?


Are you telling me that you think that cops have not broken into people's homes to find marajuana, or arrested people for smoking pot in their homes?
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post #69 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Are you telling me that you think that cops have not broken into people's homes to find marajuana, or arrested people for smoking pot in their homes?

I am sure it happens, but if no-one knows, haw can that happen?

And really, this is what you are worried about at this juncture?
post #70 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
On the discussion topic, I was hoping for more people looking at the whole goverment granting rights not because they are proper, inalienable, etc. but because there is money to be made or costs that are not incurred. I'm not much of a slippery-slope guy but I do see more and more instances in our society where people are claiming rights can be withdrawn because of their cost or granted to save money. To me, it is a troubling trend. Our human rights should be more than a math problem that we hope adds up correctly.

So marijuana isn't right because it does no harm, or wrong because it does cause harm it is right or wrong because it costs or saves X dollars.

Nick

Nick, you realize that depending on how the "progressives" respond to the issue you raised, it may change other arguments.

If they agree with you, they lose the "get out of Iraq, because it's too expensive" argument. They are one step closer to admitting that going into Iraq for human rights issues was the right thing to do.

If they disagree with you, then the whole entitlements mindset has to be reevaluated.

A catch 22, I suppose.

It's not so easy for progressives.
post #71 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I am sure it happens, but if no-one knows, haw can that happen?

And really, this is what you are worried about at this juncture?

You get turned in by your neighbors, or your ex-friends. Or they catch you when you are buying it.

Your "freedom to smoke pot" is the same as your "freedom to make moonshine" - a freedom that is only present when nobody notices is not a real freedom.
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post #72 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You get turned in by your neighbors, or your ex-friends. Or they catch you when you are buying it.

Your "freedom to smoke pot" is the same as your "freedom to make moonshine" - a freedom that is only present when nobody notices is not a real freedom.

Right.

Freedom means freedom to be stupid and make mistakes. Pot is illegal, what do you want?

Accept it. Drink beer. That's legal.

Come on you are smarter that what you are posting... I hope.
post #73 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Right.

Freedom means freedom to be stupid and make mistakes. Pot is illegal, what do you want?

Accept it. Drink beer. That's legal.

Come on you are smarter that what you are posting... I hope.

When it takes me 10 posts to finally get you to admit you were wrong, maybe you are right - I am stupid to be spending time trying to convince you.

Pot is illegal, there is no good reason that it is illegal. You want it to stay illegal because you want the government to force your morality on everyone else. You are a facist, in other words.
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post #74 of 368
e,

this is a dumb argument:

1. no-one is restricting your fundamental rights

2. you are free to go to where pot smoking is legal and return as much as you want.

3. you are free to take chances on being caught with illegal substances, no-one is monitoring you in your home.

4. You can function without Pot.

5. Did I mention that no-one is restricting your fundamental freedoms?
post #75 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It's about values.

Then you lie when you say that you value freedom as a civic right and responsibility.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #76 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, I'm not a republican and yes everything is by simple majority rule, either directly or indirectly. That's the way it is supposed to be. One man, one vote.

What a concept!

If this were the case George W Bush would not be President of the United States.

Did you forget the fact that we are a Representative Democracy?!

and that we rightly have a System of Checks And Balances against the tyrany of Majority rule?

You seem to have skipped out on some very fundamental aspects of Government class . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #77 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Nick, you realize that depending on how the "progressives" respond to the issue you raised, it may change other arguments.

If they agree with you, they lose the "get out of Iraq, because it's too expensive" argument. They are one step closer to admitting that going into Iraq for human rights issues was the right thing to do.

If they disagree with you, then the whole entitlements mindset has to be reevaluated.

A catch 22, I suppose.

It's not so easy for progressives.

What insipid idiocy . . . . I do happen to gree with Trumptman that it is fishy to base the idea of rights on the 'bottom-line'

and I also object to the War in Iraq on entirely different lines than dollars . . . but you show consistently that you are incapable of thinking beyond your little reactionary idea about us 'progressives' . . . . and just the fact that a great number of VERY CONSERVATIVE people, high profile eloquent spokespeople for the Conservative movement, why I meantioned William F Buckley (but obviously you don't even know who he is . . . after all he isn't Star Trek) shows that decriminalization is NOT a Left/Right issue!!

and you didn't even comment on the fact that the issue is actually most susceptible to a old-school-Conservative's perspective: get Big-Governmenet-Mommy-Protections off of my back!!

Get it!!!?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #78 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Then you lie when you say that you value freedom as a civic right and responsibility.

I don't recall saying that. Are we back to making things up again?

Come on, even if I made that claim, I'm lying because you want to smoke pot?

I want to masturbate profusely outside the local 7/11. Why can't I do that? It doesn't hurt anyone and it's fun. JOIN ME TO FIGHT MASTURBATION DISCRIMINATION!

What a crock!
post #79 of 368
Quote:
I want to masturbate profusely outside the local 7/11. Why can't I do that? It doesn't hurt anyone and it's fun. JOIN ME TO FIGHT MASTURBATION DISCRIMINATION!

Bad analogy. Nobody is asking for the right to smoke pot in public, and masterbating in public would be infringing on the rights of others.

Masterbating at home is legal, as should be smoking pot.
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post #80 of 368
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I don't recall saying that. Are we back to making things up again?

Come on, even if I made that claim, I'm lying because you want to smoke pot?

I want to masturbate profusely outside the local 7/11. Why can't I do that? It doesn't hurt anyone and it's fun. JOIN ME TO FIGHT MASTURBATION DISCRIMINATION!

What a crock!

So you don't value freedom?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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