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The "To Buy or Not to Buy" Official Thread (merged) - Page 3

post #81 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by rogerattack
On the contrary, i bet Bill Gates shat a brick today (although he probably already knew)...

What gave it away, the Microsoft rep on stage?
post #82 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by cj171
remember, most os x programs are cocoa which just need to be compiled for both at the same time..it really doesnt seem like hard work to me

Spoken like a true non-programmer. Anyone who has worked to support software on two different platforms (with different endians) would completely disagree.
post #83 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Hudson1
Aren't there relatively few applications that make good use of Altivec? I've never seen a list but my impression was that Photoshop and the Apple iLife and Pro apps were the major examples.

Add OS X to the list. It uses Altivec extensively.
post #84 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
Add OS X to the list. It uses Altivec extensively.

But at least Apple has already fixed that.
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post #85 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Blackcat
But at least Apple has already fixed that.

What do you mean?
post #86 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
What do you mean?

Well the Intel 10.4 doesn't use Altivec. It can't.
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post #87 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
What do you mean?

The issue is Rosetta and which applications will need it and be able to use it. Quite obviously, OS X won't need Rosetta. Applications that make significant use of Altivec but won't have an x86 Mac binary are the ones in question. It's hard to think of any that would fall into that box.
post #88 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Blackcat
Well the Intel 10.4 doesn't use Altivec. It can't.

Right. You can expect a performance hit from that. No wonder why Apple will leave the more powerful machines for the end (2.5 years from now). They certainly hope that the x86 clock speed (and eventually the multi-core CPUs) at this time will make up for that.
post #89 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by zaz You'd have to have a pretty huge set of dual processors to be buying a Mac with intel day 1.

giggling.

Well put.
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post #90 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
Right. You can expect a performance hit from that. No wonder why Apple will leave the more powerful machines for the end (2.5 years from now). They certainly hope that the x86 clock speed (and eventually the multi-core CPUs) at this time will make up for that.

It should be just as fast using SSE2 (which I'd guess will be rebranded Velocity Engine 2). Plus it will be running at a minimum of 3.2GHz with decent bandwidth to fast RAM.

Don't worry about the OS, worry about the apps that need Altivec.
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post #91 of 165
I've been waiting to get a powermac for a while now. I guess my main problem isnt compatability or anything.

The thing I'm concerned about is, I will eventually want to upgrade. Lets say I bought a dual g4 2-3 years ago. And 6 months ago I wanted to upgrade to a dual g5. I could have hopped on e-bay and gotten a good amount of money for my g4.

If I buy a g5 now, in 2-3 years who would want to buy it? There is no longer any resale value for these older systems.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems it will head this way.
post #92 of 165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by AlmightyMac
I've been waiting to get a powermac for a while now. I guess my main problem isnt compatability or anything.

The thing I'm concerned about is, I will eventually want to upgrade. Lets say I bought a dual g4 2-3 years ago. And 6 months ago I wanted to upgrade to a dual g5. I could have hopped on e-bay and gotten a good amount of money for my g4.

If I buy a g5 now, in 2-3 years who would want to buy it? There is no longer any resale value for these older systems.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems it will head this way.

These are the things that depress me to think about.
post #93 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by ryanschmidt
These are the things that depress me to think about.

Well, I don't know how fast Photoshop is going to be on the new Macs now that Altivec has been pulled from underneath it.
post #94 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Blackcat
It should be just as fast using SSE2 (which I'd guess will be rebranded Velocity Engine 2).

No. SSE2 has much lower performance than Altivec, even on much higher clocked P4. Apple will wait the clock speed and the cores to catch up and hide the performance hit.
post #95 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by ryanschmidt
I have decided to count my blessings and ignore the fact that my machine could have been so much better if IBM would have stayed up to par with Intel. I will buy my PB and accept that I could be screwed (software wise) in a year+.

I think you are making a good decision and I do not think you will be screwed with software in a year. I was worried about it too after just buying a Power Mac a month ago, but after reading the highlights from the keynote, I am not worried at all. I am excited for Apple.
post #96 of 165
I just left my local CompUSA store. There was gentlmen in there buying the cheapest iMac he could. He commented that he had planned to walk in and purchase several power systems but said he was going to minimize his investment at his company until the switch is over.

I then walked out with my DC power adapter for my G4 iBook thinking, man, can this $80 DC adapter wait a year.
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post #97 of 165
Regarding the presumed hit to resale values of machines purchased now, I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

An earlier poster suggested that he may be concerned about the resale value of a powermac purchased now and sold in 3 years. Well, three years ago, people were buy Quicksilvers. I just went on ebay and had a looksie. It appears that quicksilvers are selling for in the 450-650 range today. It is not true that a DP G5 bought today will be worth zero dollars in three years. At worst the delta from the resale value of machines purchased three years ago, and sold today will be $100-$200. And in fact, there may be significant aftermarket demand for these machines, as they will run legacy software with no performance hit. I suspect there will be a tiny marginal deprecation hit taken by buyers today. But it won't be anything to sweat over. Something along the lines of a stick of RAM in value lost.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that if you are thinking about buying a powermac, now would be the best time to jump in! You will be insulated from the turmoil over the next three years. Get your machine! Get your software! And compute in peace for the next 36-48 months. When you are ready to buy again, you will be able to buy a mature Rev2 Macintel box.
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post #98 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
Well, I don't know how fast Photoshop is going to be on the new Macs now that Altivec has been pulled from underneath it.

Isn't it the case that only certain FILTERS in Photoshop utliize Altivec? And that's why Steve always chose those filters for those nutty G4 bakeoffs he used to do at keynotes?

I've been dithering about a new computer for home, and after yesterday I thought I'd just sit tight for a while, but I am now seriously thinking about jumping on a 20-inch iMac. They're a good value, and it will last me three years, by which time the transition should be sorted out. I'd be in a different frame of mind if new machines were coming in six months, but I think the G5 models will be replaced last, so it might well be two years before we see a next-generation iMac.
post #99 of 165
I just spent $2200 CAD (plus taxes, and an extra 512 megs of ram) on a new iMac G5 20". I did this two weeks ago, before the Intel rumors.

My parents were all set to also pick up an iBook and iMac. After the announcement, my dad said "I guess I'll wait a year."

There's no need to wait. If the computer does now what you want and need it to do now, that's what matters. In a year, my iMac will still be playing WoW, still run iMovie and all the other iApps, and still store all my music in iTunes and stream it to the home stereo. In fact, I'd wager that even in 5 years, my iMac will still be doing all of this.

Yes, your Apple may have a slightly lower resale value after 3 years than you've been used to - but at least it will still have a resale value. Anyone try selling a Pentium III lately? Be happy that you can still retain value after an extended period of time.

Businesses who lease new products (and you should) get to amortize hardware over 2 years. After 2 years, it's worth nothing to the business in terms of tax breaks, so feel free to switch to Mac-Intel in two years with no regrets, and rest assured that you can pass the "old" G5's down to junior members of the firm who can still run Office and Photoshop and any other current-gen app just great.

I will admit that I reacted with shock and disappointment when I first discovered there'd be a transition after a 2-week old purchase. Take a step back, breathe, and think about the future. 2 years is an eternity in computer years (think of computer years as dogyears x 2 ) and we have no idea what the world will look like then.

I will say, however, that it looked like the P4 3.6 on stage with Steve sure opened apps faster than my 2.0GHz G5.

I think I'll start saving my pennies for my NEXT Mac, and reassure my parents that whatever they wanted their new Macs to do now, they will still be doing in 2 years. My mom's old Toshiba notebook still runs windows 98 and still gets email for her, so a new iBook will be no different.

Think less about the insides, and more about your real-world usage for a computer.
post #100 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by sc_markt
I'm not buying a PPC based mac (unless Apple lowers prices by 40 to 60%)...

No way Apple will cut prices that much. If your need for a new Mac isn't urgent, however, I suppose a little waiting might pay off if Apple sees that products are moving slowly due to PPC/Intel transition concerns.

This wouldn't be a bad time for Apple to sacrifice some of their famously high margins to see if they can actually grow their market share during this transition.
Quote:
...because as of today, PPC based macs are marked for obsoletion. .

All computers are destined to become obsolete. How long do you expect to hold on to any computer and still have the latest and greatest of every single new piece of software work well, if at all, during your computer's senior years?

If you want to hold onto to any computer for a long time, you have to be prepared to hold onto the software you buy for it too, and be happy with whatever service that software gives you up until the point where updates are no longer available.

PPC Macs will easily be supported for the next 4-5 years. How much more life can you expect out of any computer before it becomes starts becoming difficult to get updates that are optimized, or even work at all, for that computer?
Quote:
And I can't imagine most developers writing two sets of code knowing this.

Developers don't have to write two sets of code. All they have to do is move to Xcode if they haven't already, and clean up any bad coding practices which might stand in the way of processor neutrality. After that, one set of code will automatically generate universal binaries. No need for two entirely different sets of code.

There might be, in a few apps, some assembly language or hand-tweaked "#ifdef OSX_X86" logic needed by developers who are trying to optimize performance. I suspect that this kind of tweaking is the one thing that might be done for only one of two platforms, or sacrificed altogether in the name code maintenance simplicity.

At first, developers will remain most interested in tweaking for PPC performance. As time goes on and the number of x86 Macs grows, the emphasis will shift to x86 performance.
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post #101 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
Somehow I don't beleive that an old iBook will be your best choice for running new software in a few years from now, Intel or no Intel.

I use most of my Macs for about 5 to 7 years, but I really don't expect the latest and greatest software to run on my Mac "WELL" for more than 3 or 4 years.

Then when that happens switch to a stable version of Linux.
post #102 of 165
Reality Check: Apple's internal controllers will be redesigned to handle the Intel Chipset families.

The really interesting scenario will be whether or not Apple maintains the streamlined internal layout of the motherboards or produce systems with guts similiar to current x86 machines and thus really reduce the respect the Industry gives Apple for making their internal components unobstructive to working around inside the towers.

Anyone who thinks Intel chips when they ramp up their Mhz again won't need a custom built heat-sink and/or cooling solution is being misled.

Basically, if Intel starts stiffing Apple due to strong pressure from Microsoft they have one last chipset to jump to->AMD.

Apple is angry because they don't command the level of attention from the chip makers as they would like and with IBM focusing on the CELL and its many derived chipsets, along with the POWER5 and POWER6 without focusing on a derived G5MP or G6 alternative to Apple's liking, Apple is really betting the farm on Intel not screwing them over.

Either way, the system motherboard with openfirmware, running a high-end Xeon P4 or x86-64 based Itanium derived chipset is not cheap.

When multi-cores are released Intel will only lower the costs relative to AMD.

At any rate, Apple x86 Hardware custom designed will still be 20%-30% more expensive than Windows XP Systems.

The jump wasn't the price draw, but the future chip roadmap Intel guaranteed Apple will materialize.
post #103 of 165
Very True shetline!

I don't think Apple might drop prices too much. maybe a 10 to 20% drop might happen in 1 to 3 months for PB and Powermacs.
Also, the resale value of a computer drops immensely after 3 years anyway. I have a PB G4 Titanium 550mhz and I paid around $2200 little over 3 years ago. Today on ebay if I get $500 I am luck.
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post #104 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by gugy
Very True shetline!

I don't think Apple might drop prices too much. maybe a 10 to 20% drop might happen in 1 to 3 months for PB and Powermacs.
Also, the resale value of a computer drops immensely after 3 years anyway. I have a PB G4 Titanium 550mhz and I paid around $2200 little over 3 years ago. Today on ebay if I get $500 I am luck.

That is due to the fact you can't purchase your Titanium anywhere, but from a used dealer.

An accurate comparison would be if over 6months vendors priced systems down in leu of newer systems coming at around 20%-30% off just to push product out the door.
post #105 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Either way, the system motherboard with openfirmware, running a high-end Xeon P4 or x86-64 based Itanium derived chipset is not cheap.

Sadly, the intel macs will use BIOS and not Open Firmware. http://developer.apple.com/documenta...7-CH239-283936
post #106 of 165
Except that Intel will be dropping BIOS in favor of EFI.
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post #107 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
Isn't it the case that only certain FILTERS in Photoshop utliize Altivec? And that's why Steve always chose those filters for those nutty G4 bakeoffs he used to do at keynotes?

That is a myth - Altivec is used extensively in Photoshop - not just filters, but resizing, rotation - about anything you can do that is processor intensive. And that's the same for a lot of other apps - like Apple's editing suite, and sound software.
post #108 of 165
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???

In the demo, Steve made an interesting misstep, perhaps. He brought up 2 photos in PS CS2, and on the second went to a menu to run a filter. He selected a filter, brought up the filter dialogue box, then cancelled the operation and selected a second filter to run (which was emboss BTW). Why not just run the first filter? Perhaps someone warned him against performing certain opertaions in PS?
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post #109 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by wormboy
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???

In the demo, Steve made an interesting misstep, perhaps. He brought up 2 photos in PS CS2, and on the second went to a menu to run a filter. He selected a filter, brought up the filter dialogue box, then cancelled the operation and selected a second filter to run (which was emboss BTW). Why not just run the first filter? Perhaps someone warned him against performing certain opertaions in PS?

It's funny how people are analyzing every little click Steve did in his demo.
For sure all the apps are not FULLY optimized YET for Intel chips. just be a little patient. by the time Intel arrives on the Mac, hopefully things will be in much better shape.
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post #110 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by wormboy
...but ... but photoshop was demoed under Rossetta on stage. But the dev docs indicate rosetta won't run any Altivec code. What the???

Photoshop, and many other pro apps, support the G3 processor, which doesn't have Altivec. Rosetta must be using the G3 code path.
post #111 of 165
I would buy now. I would much rather have a G5 then the pentium. Also, as a rule never buy the Rev1 of any thing Apple. I learned this lesson the hard way. \
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post #112 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Sam Damon


This really has a few pals of mine torqued. We tended to buy Macs precisely because we could hang onto them longer. Last years main editing system might be the one that does lesser work, and so on. My shop still even has a Yikes that does nothing but scan stills for low-end stuff -- the machine's more than amoritized, and when it breaks, that's it.

Such a path will be difficult to pull with Macintel. Clearly, Uncle Steve wants you to buy new stuff.

AND you completely contradict yourself---So WHAT if the video stuff of the future doesn't run on the old hardware--that old hardware is scanning stills in some other (older) program, the new kick ass quad-core intel box is running the video stuff...
post #113 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by bostongeek
Actually, why should an announcement at the WWDC *have* to make anything clear to consumers? This show isn't and shouldn't be about consumers.

Wow finally... someone has the balls to tell these people that. I've been trying to explain to them what WWDC is and is meant to be... it is not a consumer show... it never was meant to be. It never will be.

PPC architecture will be support for at least 4+ years. Why? Because every new program will be fat binary ... translates to running on both platforms without a performance loss. Do you really consider keeping a machine passed 4 years??? If so, then choosing a buying time is pointless. You get the newest and ride the wave out. Its going to be the same no matter what. After 4 years you got what you paid for anyways... bite the bullet and buy. I'm going to buy a 1.67ghz powerbook with 128mb vram next week. I'm staying committed to this because as a developer I understand this book will still be supported 4 years from now and I'll still be able to sell it for decent money.

Stop worrying and just buy. Its not going to hurt. The developers now days know what they are doing (usually) and this won't hurt the end user.

 

 

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post #114 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
Wow finally... someone has the balls to tell these people that. I've been trying to explain to them what WWDC is and is meant to be... it is not a consumer show... it never was meant to be. It never will be.

[clip]

Stop worrying and just buy. Its not going to hurt. The developers now days know what they are doing (usually) and this won't hurt the end user.

Sorry, but Apple released it to the press. That means consumers and investors have got to be kept informed. Since abandoning the summer MacWord, WWDC is the only chance we usually have to hear from Apple, and they've used to launch such non-Developer stuff as monitors, for heavens sake.

Shut up and trust the company is not a compelling argument.
post #115 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by wilco
What gave it away, the Microsoft rep on stage?

LOL
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post #116 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by alliancep.s.i
i want a mac mini, have the cash FINALLY and now what do i do? I wanted to get it to start using this summer. are we better off buying it now with the old processor or wait for the intels

On this one I think there is absolutely no question! Buy your new Mini, put it to work and move on. There is not about to be some magical chip appearing from Intel that will murder the G4 in there and give you super powers. I even bought a mini to "upgrade" one of my Cubes-- it fits right under it with a little lift and most people cannot understand how i'm running two monitors out of my Cube!

I think the key shock will be in the Powerbook line, but I've not been impressed with any of the Dell/Sony/et al laptops my colleagues have been lugging around. My Pismo still works great and the 15"Al PB I got in the first rev of them is a workhorse; I skipped upgrading in hopes of a G5 PB, but I never really believed in it.

What has happened to the confidence of the Apple Community with yesterday's news is very evident in this thread. A lot of confusion about a lot of things few of the community outside Developer Land really understand. I think it was probably a mistake to make this Keynote so public... Steve needed a good heart-to-heart with the core along the lines stated above assuring everyone that he wasn't just Killing a bum machine or something... We're not talking bubble memory here...
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post #117 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by Blackcat
Well, my fiancee was about to buy her first Mac after a week of virus hell in XP (*with* 2 virus checkers running!), but now she sees no point.

"Wasn't the point of a Mac it isn't a PC? Now they are."

I won't buy a new Mac this year now either, I need to see how Rosetta performs first.

I think Apple just killed a lot of sales.

I don't see what's the point with all the buy now questions. Of course you want to buy now. While their still figuring out the bugs with rosetta next year those of us with PowerPC macs will be singing as our stuff will just work without all the emulation crap.

This is not as big a deal as you all seem to think it is. Especially if the transition goes as well as their projecting. It's not like they had a choice either. A PowerBook G5 was NEVER gonna happen. Those damn PowerPC chips are just too damn hot...

Really, do all you people love Macs for the PowerPC, or the virus free Mac OS X, iLife, stable entertainment hub that the mac has matured into?
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post #118 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by gugy
Can you tell me why the Powermac and laptop crowd should wait?
Powermac were just upgraded. Steve did not give any hope of a PB G5 to ever happen. IBM looks stuck on their current G5 models (just look at the minor Powermac upgrade). So I don't see any significant upgrade coming until probably middle or end of next year.

Many folks who buy PowerMacs do so not just for the raw speed, but for the upgradability and expansion. Anyone who was wanting the Latest and Greatest might want to hold off, since there's bound to be good new tech coming in the IntelMacs.

For laptops, I'd say there's a tremendous benefit in holding off. Centrino "Napa" is likely to be what gets put into the new laptops, and that offers a host of improved technologies.

However, anyone who needs (or just wants) a new machine now, should go ahead and buy now. I was only saying that folks who want the Latest and Greatest should probably hold off, to get a machine that will last the longest for future upgrades.

Consumer machines don't tend to have that question, as they don't / can't get upgraded. They typically last 3-6 years and get replaced anyway, which means there's really no difference in waiting or buying now.
post #119 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by D.J. Adequate
Sorry, but Apple released it to the press. That means consumers and investors have got to be kept informed. Since abandoning the summer MacWord, WWDC is the only chance we usually have to hear from Apple, and they've used to launch such non-Developer stuff as monitors, for heavens sake.

Shut up and trust the company is not a compelling argument.

Neither is, "we heard about it, they must tell us everything they know!"

All they have to tell consumers is what's in the press release. Nothing more. It would be nice to hear more info, but it sounds like they're still working out the details.

No matter what, WWDC is not intended to be a consumer showplace. Stuff does get released around that time, but it's not done for getting mom & pop to buy a Mac. It's done for the hardcore geeks and developers.

You don't have to "shut up and trust the company," but there's little point in complaining that a developer's conference doesn't have a lot of consumer information. For the tired car analogy, this is the engineering symposium, versus a dealer carshow. It's not about the paint job or body, it's about the future of the engine.
post #120 of 165
Quote:
Originally posted by off/lang
Photoshop, and many other pro apps, support the G3 processor, which doesn't have Altivec. Rosetta must be using the G3 code path.

Right. I think Apple's warning was that programs which rely on AltiVec with no fallback code will fail when ported to Intel, unless you spend time ripping it out and replacing the code. Other software that can use Altivec but survive without it will run on Rosetta, though without the benefits of the Altivec code.

It sounds like PS is one of the latter.
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