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Immigration out of control-Newsweek - Page 4

post #121 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
If it were just about classism, then the same argument could be made for all poor immigrant groups.

It can. And it is.

Quote:
Hispanic immigrants, even second generation, have a harder time becoming upwardly mobile (and I dont mean rich I mean middle class), graduate high school at lower rates, go to college at lower rates, than other immigrant groups.

In other words, there are class issues.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #122 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Its both for sure but i would rather have "knowns" in this country then unknowns who are strolling across the borders by the thousands & thousands. Why are you so opposed to enforcing our border. We just suppose to ignore this and continue the soaking of the American taxpayer on everything? Sorry, there is a line where my country ends and others begin.Immigration is out of control thanks to a Washington who is out of control. Big Business.

Put it this way: It is a small, tiny, miniscule minority of illegal immigrants in the US that actually cross the boarder illegally.

Do we really track the illegals who overstay their work visas? Really?

Heh.

Boarder jumpers are a problem, sure. But they aren't the source of all of our issues here, nor the source of the problems steve666 loves to blame on them, nor a drop in the pool of illegals.

You want to spend billions and billions enforcing the boarder to a feverish pitch when the flood of illegal immigrants will still be happening because they cross that well guarded boarder legally.

The average illegal immigrant is a mexican who crosses the boarder with visa in hand and becomes illegal only when his work visa expires.

He isn't a boarder jumper.

There is no reason to believe that terrorist won't use legal means to get into the US, since that is what they have done in the past. It is idiotic to say the least, to suggest that people intent on causing the US harm would risk having their plots foiled by something as minor as a boarder crossing.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #123 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
You honestly believe that the poor Chinese and South Vietnamese immigrants come here speaking English?

They know more English than you know Mandarin or Vietnamese (much more).
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #124 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You want to spend billions and billions enforcing the boarder to a feverish pitch when the flood of illegal immigrants will still be happening because they cross that well guarded boarder legally.

Like I said earlier: a moat or mutant dogs would do the trick.

Ooh! A moat filled with mutant water-breathing labradors!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #125 of 185
I wonder what country hardeehar lives in?, and i guess Minuteman are on the border because there isnt anyone coming across? This is the kind of spin crap our govt would push concerning the border. Spin it into anything but the truth. Just Blabber and talk and if you make enough smoke and lies no one will Know the truth. You have been watching to much George Bush. Your miniscle comment is wrong,your overstayed my visa and no one is watching is right.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #126 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I wonder what country hardeehar lives in?, and i guess Minuteman are on the border because there isnt anyone coming across? This is the kind of spin crap our govt would push concerning the border. Spin it into anything but the truth. Just Blabber and talk and if you make enough smoke and lies no one will Know the truth. You have been watching to much George Bush. Your miniscle comment is wrong,your overstayed my visa and no one is watching is right.

No I am not wrong. I looked up the statistics. I read actual documents prepared by people outside of the government.

What have you done but speculate?

Edit: I live in the birth place of this nation thank you very much, asshat.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #127 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Put it this way: It is a small, tiny, miniscule minority of illegal immigrants in the US that actually cross the boarder illegally.

Do we really track the illegals who overstay their work visas? Really?

Heh.

Boarder jumpers are a problem, sure. But they aren't the source of all of our issues here, nor the source of the problems steve666 loves to blame on them, nor a drop in the pool of illegals.

You want to spend billions and billions enforcing the boarder to a feverish pitch when the flood of illegal immigrants will still be happening because they cross that well guarded boarder legally.

The average illegal immigrant is a mexican who crosses the boarder with visa in hand and becomes illegal only when his work visa expires.

He isn't a boarder jumper.

There is no reason to believe that terrorist won't use legal means to get into the US, since that is what they have done in the past. It is idiotic to say the least, to suggest that people intent on causing the US harm would risk having their plots foiled by something as minor as a boarder crossing.

First off-tiny, miniscule? It is estimated that hundreds of thousands illegals gain entry into this country by hopping the border. I don't consider that tiny-why do you think that the minutemen are drawing attention to the border insecurity?
As for terrorists, the legal means of entry are being closed to them. According to Homeland Security 30-40% of illegals caught at the border are not Mexicans. Many of them were from Muslim countries. There have been Al-Queda operatives caught and detained in Mexico. They werent there to hit mexican targets.
post #128 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
They know more English than you know Mandarin or Vietnamese (much more).

yeh, sure
post #129 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I wonder what country hardeehar lives in?, and i guess Minuteman are on the border because there isnt anyone coming across? This is the kind of spin crap our govt would push concerning the border. Spin it into anything but the truth. Just Blabber and talk and if you make enough smoke and lies no one will Know the truth. You have been watching to much George Bush. Your miniscle comment is wrong,your overstayed my visa and no one is watching is right.

hardeeharhar lives in his own little world, where the truth doesn't exist. It might upset him too much.
post #130 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Edit: I live in the birth place of this nation thank you very much, asshat.

You live in England?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #131 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
According to Homeland Security 30-40% of illegals caught at the border are not Mexicans.

Do you have a source for this statistic?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #132 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
First off-tiny, miniscule? It is estimated that hundreds of thousands illegals gain entry into this country by hopping the border. I don't consider that tiny-why do you think that the minutemen are drawing attention to the border insecurity?
As for terrorists, the legal means of entry are being closed to them. According to Homeland Security 30-40% of illegals caught at the border are not Mexicans. Many of them were from Muslim countries. There have been Al-Queda operatives caught and detained in Mexico. They werent there to hit mexican targets.

Lets talk real numbers, and not speculations (estimates)...

The US has roughly 1 million legal immigrants per year. 10% of these come from Mexico, legally. Are you suggesting that boarder jumpers are outstripping legal immigration from most of the world?

Or are you just shooting your mouthpiece off?

Could there be hundreds of thousand boarder jumpers in this nation, sure, but if you consider the facts, 200000 people crossing the boarder in a year requires somewhere on the order of 1000 people per day getting across and that just isn't happening.
So wherever you are getting that number from, it may well be the sum over many years.

More reasonable estimates suggest on the order of a thousand to ten thousand boarder jumpers a year, or 1-10% of Mexican immigrants, and 0.1-1% of all immigrants. Tiny. See?

Lets talk more facts. 1/10 people currently living in this country are foreign born. This is the highest percentage in quite some time. That is what the minute men are fearing, loss of their Americaness same as the know-nothings before them...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #133 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
hardeeharhar lives in his own little world, where the truth doesn't exist. It might upset him too much.

Truth exists. It just isn't on your side.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #134 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Lets talk real numbers, and not speculations (estimates)...

The US has roughly 1 million legal immigrants per year. 10% of these come from Mexico, legally. Are you suggesting that boarder jumpers are outstripping legal immigration from most of the world?

Or are you just shooting your mouthpiece off?

Could there be hundreds of thousand boarder jumpers in this nation, sure, but if you consider the facts, 200000 people crossing the boarder in a year requires somewhere on the order of 1000 people per day getting across and that just isn't happening.
So wherever you are getting that number from, it may well be the sum over many years.

More reasonable estimates suggest on the order of a thousand to ten thousand boarder jumpers a year, or 1-10% of Mexican immigrants, and 0.1-1% of all immigrants. Tiny. See?

Lets talk more facts. 1/10 people currently living in this country are foreign born. This is the highest percentage in quite some time. That is what the minute men are fearing, loss of their Americaness same as the know-nothings before them...

There are an estimated 11 million illegals currently living in the US.
There are hundreds of thousands crossing the borders illegally every year.
Accept it, deal with it, you'll be happy you did.
There are far more than 10,000 border jumpers every year. Are you just pulling number out of your ass?
And then you jump right on the racist bandwagon in the end, the sure sign of someone who has no argument.
post #135 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Truth exists. It just isn't on your side.

Oh, but it is, and it frightens you to admit you were wrong.
post #136 of 185
Thread Starter 
Some numbers:

INS estimates that for every 3 caught, 1 enter

INS APPREHENSION DATA -- FY'61 to FY'96
1961
88,823
1962
92,758
1963
88,712
1964
86,597
1965
110,371
1966
138,520
1967
161,608
1968
212,057
1969
283,557
1970
345,353
1971
420,126
1972
505,949
1973
655,968
1974
788,145
1975
766,600
1976
1,097,739*
1977
1,042,215
1978
1,057,977
1979
1,076,418
1980
910,361
1981
975,780
1982
970,246
1983
1,251,357
1984
1,246,981
1985
1,348,749
1986
1,767,400
1987
1,190,488
1988
1,008,145
1989
954,243
1990
1,169,939
1991
1,197,875
1992
1,258,482
1993
1,327,259
1994
1,094,717
1995
1,394,554
1996
1,649,986

* 1976 data include 15 months when the fiscal year end was moved to Sept.30.

Updated 3/98


It is difficult to have an exact figure because the illegal nature of their presence prevents any enumeration, but the U.S. Census Bureau estimated 8.7 million illegal aliens were here in 2000, and immigration officials estimate that the illegal alien population grows by as many as 500,000 every year.

The United States has a major problem with visitors overstaying their visas, taking jobs and staying illegally as if they were immigrants. A chief reason for the problem is that we have no effective tracking system for visitors to our country. The most recent estimate of the INS is that about 40 percent of the nine to eleven_million illegal alien residents in the United States originally entered the country with nonimmigrant visas.
post #137 of 185
There are numbers of illegal immigrants caught inside of our boarders...

What does that have to do with boarder jumpers?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #138 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
There are numbers of illegal immigrants caught inside of our boarders...

What does that have to do with boarder jumpers?

They apparently don't pay sales taxes.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #139 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
There are an estimated 11 million illegals currently living in the US.
There are hundreds of thousands crossing the borders illegally every year.
Accept it, deal with it, you'll be happy you did.
There are far more than 10,000 border jumpers every year. Are you just pulling number out of your ass?
And then you jump right on the racist bandwagon in the end, the sure sign of someone who has no argument.

Your numbers have nothing to do with eachother. How many of those illegal immigrants actually crossed the boarder illegally? Find me some data....
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #140 of 185
I looked up the data the INS keeps on illegal aliens. They indicate that the number of illegal aliens in this country grows by 250000 or so a year. Unless all of these individuals are boarder jumpers, steve666 is full of shit.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #141 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I looked up the data the INS keeps on illegal aliens. They indicate that the number of illegal aliens in this country grows by 250000 or so a year. Unless all of these individuals are boarder jumpers, steve666 is full of shit.

Well, as you've been pointing out all along, there are various kinds of "illegalness" at issue here:

1) Legal immigrants who have overstayed their visas.
2) Border jumpers.
3) Fake passport holders.

My sense is that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in the 1st category.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #142 of 185
I want people to poor over the data before they draw conculsions by word of mouth.

That is my only hope.

In any event, I have a week long conference on something completely unrelated to immigration law enforcement (bioorganic chemistry, in fact) starting tomorrow morning so I will leave this thread in the trusted hands of other reasonable members of this board.

I will make sure the door doesn't slam me in the ass on the way out...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #143 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Well, as you've been pointing out all along, there are various kinds of "illegalness" at issue here:

1) Legal immigrants who have overstayed their visas.
2) Border jumpers.
3) Fake passport holders.

My sense is that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in the 1st category.

And that is what the data says as well...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #144 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I want people to poor over the data before they draw conculsions by word of mouth.

That is my only hope.

In any event, I have a week long conference on something completely unrelated to immigration law enforcement (bioorganic chemistry, in fact) starting tomorrow morning so I will leave this thread in the trusted hands of other reasonable members of this board.

I will make sure the door doesn't slam me in the ass on the way out...

Slacker! If I can comment on threads like this while at a conference on Victorian women's writing, you can do the same!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #145 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
There are numbers of illegal immigrants caught inside of our boarders...

What does that have to do with boarder jumpers?

How do you think they got here, by osmosis?
Those numbers also shot down your 'tiny' number of border jumpers-60% of the total are jumpers. From what I remember from School, 60% is a huge number, a majority in fact.
post #146 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Your numbers have nothing to do with eachother. How many of those illegal immigrants actually crossed the boarder illegally? Find me some data....

You must have missed my post, look up
post #147 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I looked up the data the INS keeps on illegal aliens. They indicate that the number of illegal aliens in this country grows by 250000 or so a year. Unless all of these individuals are boarder jumpers, steve666 is full of shit.

steve666 got his numbers from the Govmnt
post #148 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Well, as you've been pointing out all along, there are various kinds of "illegalness" at issue here:

1) Legal immigrants who have overstayed their visas.
2) Border jumpers.
3) Fake passport holders.

My sense is that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in the 1st category.

And the INS says that it is not #1
Regardless, look at the chart I showed you, and divide the number shown by 3. That is a hell of a lot of border jumpers-not a 'tiny' amount.
post #149 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
How do you think they got here, by osmosis?
Those numbers also shot down your 'tiny' number of border jumpers-60% of the total are jumpers. From what I remember from School, 60% is a huge number, a majority in fact.

HHH's point was that all illegal aliens apprehended are not "border jumpers." Many of them will have had expired visas.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #150 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I want people to poor over the data before they draw conculsions by word of mouth.

That is my only hope.

In any event, I have a week long conference on something completely unrelated to immigration law enforcement (bioorganic chemistry, in fact) starting tomorrow morning so I will leave this thread in the trusted hands of other reasonable members of this board.

I will make sure the door doesn't slam me in the ass on the way out...

coward
post #151 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
coward

Do you have any real data to back up your position?
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post #152 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Do you have any real data to back up your position?

My position that he is a coward?
Well, I could say that he left as soon as he saw he was losing the argument but he was losing it from the beginning.
So, I guess that doesn't prove him to be a coward.

Lets just say I was getting back at him for previously calling me a coward because I couldn't stay up all night responding to his inane views.

I believe in revenge
666
post #153 of 185
No, I was talking about the percentage of illegal immegrants who come over the border vs over-stay their visa.
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post #154 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No, I was talking about the percentage of illegal immegrants who come over the border vs over-stay their visa.

>The United States has a major problem with visitors overstaying their visas, taking jobs and staying illegally as if they were immigrants. A chief reason for the problem is that we have no effective tracking system for visitors to our country. The most recent estimate of the INS is that about 40 percent of the nine to eleven_million illegal alien residents in the United States originally entered the country with nonimmigrant visas.<
post #155 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Lets just say I was getting back at him for previously calling me a coward because I couldn't stay up all night responding to his inane views.

I believe in revenge
666

That was me who called you a coward. If you do believe in revenge, you don't seem to care much about accuracy.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #156 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
That was me who called you a coward. If you do believe in revenge, you don't seem to care much about accuracy.

oops
post #157 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
>The United States has a major problem with visitors overstaying their visas, taking jobs and staying illegally as if they were immigrants. A chief reason for the problem is that we have no effective tracking system for visitors to our country. The most recent estimate of the INS is that about 40 percent of the nine to eleven_million illegal alien residents in the United States originally entered the country with nonimmigrant visas.<

http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/IR28/5million.html

increase in the illegal population is 275,000 annually

The INS estimates that 41 percent of the illegal population are overstayers and 59 percent are EWIs.

So this seems to support both of your points. Entry without inspection is a real problem - 181,000 per year (the 275k figure is growth accounting for death, total illegal imegration is 420K total).

It is indeed much less than the 1m legal immigrants - so hardeehar is right there.

Mexicans compose 54% of illegal population, so you are right there.

I don't think that your 11 million figure is right, because it was about 4 million in 1996, according to the web page.
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post #158 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/IR28/5million.html

increase in the illegal population is 275,000 annually

The INS estimates that 41 percent of the illegal population are overstayers and 59 percent are EWIs.

So this seems to support both of your points. Entry without inspection is a real problem - 181,000 per year (the 275k figure is growth accounting for death, total illegal imegration is 420K total).

It is indeed much less than the 1m legal immigrants - so hardeehar is right there.

Mexicans compose 54% of illegal population, so you are right there.

I don't think that your 11 million figure is right, because it was about 4 million in 1996, according to the web page.

THANK YOU E-NUMBERS FOR BRINGING SOME ACTUAL FACTS TO THIS DISCUSSION.

Now, the next question for me is how many of those Mexican EWI are seasonal or otherwise return to Mexico.
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post #159 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
THANK YOU E-NUMBERS FOR BRINGING SOME ACTUAL FACTS TO THIS DISCUSSION.

Now, the next question for me is how many of those Mexican EWI are seasonal or otherwise return to Mexico.

It says that the numbers do not include short-term illegals, who stay less than one year.
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post #160 of 185
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
It says that the numbers do not include short-term illegals, who stay less than one year.

Gotcha.
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