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"Letting Go of God" - Page 2

post #41 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Which was this Church?

Fellowship Church holds about 4,400 people at one seating holding 4 weekend services usually full or 95% full.

This 4,400 seat capacity is just two floors and really is not all that huge.

You describe "6-8 stories up" and being seated in "zzz section" I really do not have any idea what Church this could be as Lakewood and Fellowship are 2 of the 10 largest in America and neither of them are 6-8 stories nor do they have sections labled such as zzz for ex. as you describe.

I am most curious to check up on this church you describe. Which one was it?

Fellows

The hall was divided as any concert hall would be with a lower level and a balcony level, so that's 2 'floors' but, the distance from ground level to ZZZ was, I'd approximate, 5-6 stories. It actually might have been ZZ not ZZZ now that I think of it, but regardless, it was a big friggin place, made bigger by the over-the-top performance/spectacle.

As far as I'm concerned, religion, spirituality and the values ascribed to them are incredible personal, such mega-churchs just don't make any sense to me, I don't understand how it'd be at all beneficial to anyone's spiritual journey. But, don't listen to me, I'm atheistic and I eat children.

edit: I just looked it up online, it's the Calvary Community church, and it accommodates approximately 5-6000 people.
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post #42 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
The hall was divided as any concert hall would be with a lower level and a balcony level, so that's 2 'floors' but, the distance from ground level to ZZZ was, I'd approximate, 5-6 stories. It actually might have been ZZ not ZZZ now that I think of it, but regardless, it was a big friggin place, made bigger by the over-the-top performance/spectacle.

As far as I'm concerned, religion, spirituality and the values ascribed to them are incredible personal, such mega-churchs just don't make any sense to me, I don't understand how it'd be at all beneficial to anyone's spiritual journey. But, don't listen to me, I'm atheistic and I eat children.

edit: I just looked it up online, it's the Calvary Community church, and it accommodates approximately 5-6000 people.

It all makes sense now!

Why have hundreds of smaller congregations which are short distances from people's homes? Better to make one big central clearinghouse for spirituality that everyone *needs* to drive 45 minutes - 2 hours just to get to! Brilliant. Think of all the SUVs at Lakewood's parking lot. (I gotta find out what the parking fee is, if any). And all the extra gas used.

It's cunning.

yeah baby....let's burn some gas for Jesus.

P.S. Paranoia = "paying attention", in my book. Can I get an "amen"?
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #43 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
The hall was divided as any concert hall would be with a lower level and a balcony level, so that's 2 'floors' but, the distance from ground level to ZZZ was, I'd approximate, 5-6 stories. It actually might have been ZZ not ZZZ now that I think of it, but regardless, it was a big friggin place, made bigger by the over-the-top performance/spectacle.

As far as I'm concerned, religion, spirituality and the values ascribed to them are incredible personal, such mega-churchs just don't make any sense to me, I don't understand how it'd be at all beneficial to anyone's spiritual journey. But, don't listen to me, I'm atheistic and I eat children.

edit: I just looked it up online, it's the Calvary Community church, and it accommodates approximately 5-6000 people.

Read the incredibly brilliant but concise book by Sigmund Freud called Group Psychology And Analysis Of the Ego . . . . it goes a long way towards explaining the way that large group phenomena, like that you describe, work, and why they are appealing to people.

Picture a bulb of bath-perfume melting in a warm bath - the Ego dissolves and gives over responsibility . . . it is free of itself and gives itsself over to the oceanic feeling of the throng: the facticity and limitation and perpetual inner-struggle that is the self/body of an individual is presented with the false illusion that the collective Ego will take that burden away, and invariably, there will be a 'Leader' who will use that collective relinquishing of responsibility for Egoic, semi megolomaniacal manipulative and completely illusory reasons . . .

All of this in the name of sublimating the truths of the struggle that is the psyche bound to a body that is limited . . . ie: the denial of death through the denial of Life as it is.

But Freud says it in a far more profound and multi-demensional way . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #44 of 326
Thread Starter 
Look! Over 300 Three Hundred Proofs of God's Existence!

Some of my favorites:
Quote:
14. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists -- it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

15. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
(1) Okay, I don't pretend to be as intelligent as you guys -- you're obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you'll just ask him into your life. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth." John 3:16.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

26. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY (Or, as I like to think of it, the dmz argument [bracketed additions, mine])
(1) Flabble glurk [trinity] zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz [avatar] ping!
(2) No one has ever refuted (1).
(3) Therefore, God exists.

31. ARGUMENT FROM FALLIBILITY
(1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed.
(2) Therefore, there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
(3) I propose that God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

36. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

51. ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS
(1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

58. ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist's counterargument]
(3) Yes he does.
(4) [Atheist's counterargument]
(5) Yes he does!
(6) [Atheist's counterargument]
(7) YES HE DOES!!!
(8) [Atheist gives up and goes home]
(9) Therefore, God exists.

59. ARGUMENT FROM PERFECTION
(1) If there are absolute moral standards, then God exists.
(2) Atheists say that there are no absolute moral standards.
(3) But that's because they don't want to admit to being sinners.
(4) Therefore, there are absolute moral standards.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

63. ARGUMENT FROM HUMAN NECESSITY (Comes close to Fellow's initial comment in this thread comparing going without God to going without food.)
(1) Atheists say that they don't need God.
(2) Which just goes to show that they need God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

77. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM SELECTIVE MEMORY (Sounds like the flow of one of our (now banned!) evolution threads.)
(1) [Christian asks "stumper" question]
(2) [Atheist answers question]
(3) [A lapse of time] (shetline adds: or thread merely overflows onto a new page)
(4) [Christian repeats question]
(5) [Atheist repeats answer]
(6) [A lapse of time]
(7) [Christian repeats question]
(8) [Atheist repeats answer]
(9) [A lapse of time]
(10) Atheist, you never answered my question.
(11) Therefore, God exists.

79. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY
(1) I've had religious experiences that can't be explained unless I'm insane or God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

91. ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (I), aka Metacrock's Argument
(1) I have a large number of arguments for God.
(2) One of them is probably true.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

93. ARGUMENT FROM MYSTERIOUS USE OF PREPOSITIONS
(1) It is impossible to disprove God with your puny human intellect unless you are above God.
(2) Are you higher than God?
(3) Ill take that puzzled look on your face as a no.
(4) Therefore, God (being the highest thing ever) exists.

98. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (II), aka GOD OF THE GAPS, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (IV)
(1) Isn't X amazing!
(2) I don't understand how X could be, without something else (that I don't really understand either) making or doing X.
(3) This something else must be God because I can't come up with a better explanation.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

104. ARGUMENT FROM FORMATTING
(1) Behold, foolish Atheists, I present you with an incontrovertible proof of the existence of God.
(2) [Christian posts 10,000 word document without a single paragraph break]
(3) [Atheists' eyes implode]
(4) I see that nobody can refute (2).
(5) Therefore, God exists.

119. ARGUMENT FROM PIG'S TEETH
(1) Some scientists once thought a tooth was from an "ape-man."
(2) Later scientists discovered it was a pig's tooth.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

157. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL PROPHECY
(1) The book of Daniel made some prophecies.
(2) The prophecy was later fulfilled by other records in the Book of Daniel.
(3) The prophecy came true!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

164. ARGUMENT FROM WE ALL GOT FAITH
(1) We all believe in something.
(2) Therefore we all have faith.
(3) My faith in God is no different from your faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

175. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
(1) When I pray, either it comes true or God has a better plan.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

182. ARGUMENT FROM COINCIDENCE
(1) We were driving home with our youth pastor when it started to rain really hard outside.
(2) We pulled over to the side of the road, joined hands and asked gawd to deliver us home safely.
(3) We arrived home safely.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

We might save a lot of time in the future by responding to all pro-God/religion/cr**t**n*sm arguments simply by categorizing them by number...

ARGUMENT BY NUMERICAL INDEX
1) All of these numerically indexed arguments are ridiculous BS.
2) Congratulations, you just proposed argument X, without even realizing it!
3) Therefore, I call BS!
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #45 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
It all makes sense now!

Why have hundreds of smaller congregations which are short distances from people's homes? Better to make one big central clearinghouse for spirituality that everyone *needs* to drive 45 minutes....

This is really a TERRIBLE observation -- when you look at the mega-church proposition in context.

Americans do EVERYTHING en masse, why not go to church that way? When a culture that perennially commoditizes everything from prostitot fashion to mass-produced 'misfit' originality, why would you expect that the evangelical, gnosticism-by-another-name Christian bent, would do ANYTHING other than plug in to the same mentality?

Where's the puzzle? If you don't have an alternative to the culture around you, you're not very likely to able to offer a substitute -- ya think? Just maybe?

???

......and don't get me wrong, the evangelicals need to wake up and realize they are selling more than life and fire insurance, and that they are pitching a coherent philosophy; give them time it they'll figure it out -- you throw an infinite, personal God into the cultural equation, you might just end up finding community again Imagine a metoplex/bay area/seatac corridor without the 1,000 different Applebees, Outbacks, Bennagins... hell, people might actually stop over for coffee, without having to watch NASCAR or women's softball. Last time I checked, the same 'evil' forces driving those people to go see the Phillies, was getting them though the turnstile at the local mega-church.

.....so in all reality, "fundie" Christianity is where it's at, there is no coherent philosophy to be had elsewhere -- Christianity's incoherent alternatives simply place uncertainty and incoherence as a virtue to be worshipped to one degree or another -- you offer no final solution to people and golly, they end up apathetic, searching for personal peace and affluence and falling apart on a fractal level. So pfflam, you can say anything you want about "letting go of God", but 3-5 centuries of one great mind after another urinating on the same metaphysical 110-outlet, to essentially the same effect, isn't very convincing. There should be no suprise at the groping in a completely depersonalized world for those who pimp out vicarious living. The only thing left in our PoMod-induced landscape are the fried nerve endings.

And Shetline, do us a favor and offer an intellectually coherent alternative to Christianity, then get back to me. You have no philosphical ground to stand on, cheeky webistes wont do.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #46 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
.....so in all reality, "fundie" Christianity is where it's at, there is no coherent philosophy to be had elsewhere -- Christianity's incoherent alternatives simply place uncertainty and incoherence as a virtue to be worshipped to one degree or another -- you offer no final solution to people and golly, they end up apathetic, searching for personal peace and affluence and falling apart on a fractal level.

Yet more of this??

You have *never* explained satisfactorily why Christianity's "infinite, personal God" is the ultimate or best.

What coherence??? What final solution??

You pretend that only Christianity is capable of bringing about moral humans or peace. It's an insult to the many other religions that get along just fine without Christianity's imperialism and cultural "meddlings".

<cleaned up for the sake of the thread's health>
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #47 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Yet more of this??

You have *never* explained satisfactorily why Christianity's "infinite, personal God" is the ultimate or best.

What coherence??? What final solution??

You pretend that only Christianity is capable of bringing about moral humans or peace. What utter rubbish and it's an insult to myriad other religions that get along just fine without Christianity's imperialism and cultural exterminations.

Yes, yet more of this.

johnq, it's all there in the world of philosophy, it's the unanswered question, the holy grail of all-time: explain the unity of the particulars without destroying their individuality -- it has yet to be done in the secular world. It's the red-headed step child chained to the register in the basement that no one talks about.

The excesses of capitalism don't detract from it, and no, there is no myriad of religions that offer an answer either. Also, Imperialsim is not the exclusive domain of the those who profess one ideolgy and practice something much darker.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #48 of 326
If a religion is peaceful and coherent and Christianity/Islam/Judaism comes along and destroys it, it's records, it's art and architecture and all of its followers, will a 21st century Christian ever know about it or think it a viable alternative?

Prolly not.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #49 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
If a religion is peaceful and coherent and Christianity/Islam/Judaism comes along and destroys it, it's records, it's art and architecture and all of its followers, will a 21st century Christian ever know about it or think it a viable alternative?

Prolly not.

Well, either way it's the undiscovered country, one way or the other -- and not for a lack of trying.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #50 of 326
Care to explain how, say, Buddhism doesn't solve "the problem"/"answer the question" etc.?

<insert dmz's partially-intentional misconception of Buddhism here>
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #51 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Care to explain how, say, Buddhism doesn't solve "the problem"/"answer the question" etc.?

<insert partially-intentional misconception of Buddhism here>

It's just absorption into the oness of all being -- they don't really even ask the one/many question, because basically EVERYTHING is unity. Kinda/sorta in the same way Islam is ready to accept dictatorships -- or that the East has been able to accept Marxism in China and other countries. Buddhism is almost like water, in that is confroms to the shape of it's container.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #52 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
...or that the East has been able to accept Marxism in China and other countries. Buddhism is almost like water, in that is confroms to the shape of it's container.

Tell that to the Tibetan Buddhists. Or Thich Quang Duc.

Or are "good" pacifists supposed to take up arms and murder "in defense"? Christians have zero hesitation doing so.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #53 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
It's just absorption into the oness of all being -- they don't really even ask the one/many question, because basically EVERYTHING is unity*.

Shock! And we can't have that now, can we?

We need rigid, alienating, arbitrary distinctions between people, races, nations, religions, the better to kill them, my dear.

(*btw, that's an over-simplification along the lines of "Jesus was some long-haired guy that was nailed to some wood".)
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #54 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
do us a favor and offer an intellectually coherent alternative to Christianity, then get back to me.

Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Micronesian Cargo Cults, Helena Blavatsky, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, My 7 year old nephew Stephen's Theory of Everything, Communism, Dadaism, Nihilism, Atheism, Anti-Atheism, The Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club, Billericay Women's Institute Flower Arranging Committee, Satanism, Gnosticism, the Eleusian Mysteries, Est, Nlp, Advaita, Adi Da, Baba Ram Dass, Uncle Tom Cobley, MarcUK, Salman Rushdie, David Icke, Ike and Tina Turner, Pee Wee Herman......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #55 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
It's just absorption into the oness of all being -- they don't really even ask the one/many question, because basically EVERYTHING is unity. Kinda/sorta in the same way Islam is ready to accept dictatorships -- or that the East has been able to accept Marxism in China and other countries. Buddhism is almost like water, in that is confroms to the shape of it's container.

This is the major problem that Christianity has theologically and why it is provable as a man made invention although undoubtedly was originally in Jesus's original formation a genuine 'divine' spirituality before it became corrupted.

Let's restate the original contention: everything is one. Christianity and DMZ are arguing against this.

Islam and Judaism are unanimous in agreeing with this oneness, In fact the Zen sect of Buddhism is a derivation of the Islamic Sufi philosophy of oneness which was originally stated by Muhammad and later elaborated by Ibn Arabi.

In this regard, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism (as well as many other religions such as Baha'i, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism) completely agree - albeit in different terminology. It is Christianity that differs. But let''s examine the theological proof:

If God (or the Oneness of being, or the Truth, Reality, whatever we're most comfortable with) has always existed (the Christian contention) then there are two possibilities regarding suffering (a key Buddhist concept) or what Christians call 'evil'.

1) It always existed along with God.
2) It came into being at some point during God's existence.

Those are the only two possibilities.

If Possibility 1 is true then we have the duality that the Buddhist and Islamic models argue does not exist. In these conceptions there is only oneness.

So how can both 'evil' and 'God' exist side by side? Clearly this is nonsense unless one accepts duality. You cannot believe in oneness with this view unless you accept that there is no 'evil' - and this is the Buddhist/Islamic view: there is only what seems from our unenlightened perspective to be 'evil'. We are the ones who place the value judgements and this is what limits us. When we get beyond this we can approach 'wisdom'.

But look at point 2) - the Xian view (actually now I am going to use the term 'Xian" to refer to those I believe are not following Jesus's original teaching so as to avoid derailments):

If 'evil' came into being during God's existence then it [u]MUST[/b] have done so with his approval or else HE is not God. There is no amount of wiseacring or flim-flam that can get round this - though the whole Xian dogma is an attempt to do so.

Look at it this way: if you have a totally sealed scientific environment and it is 100% under your control (not 99.999 0r 99.9998 but 100) then ANYTHING entering that environment is because you allowed it to. If this is not the case then you are not 100% in control.

If this is the case in the analogy of the origin of 'evil' then you are not God. So basically we have a situation where there are only two possibilities.

Possibility 1 is supported by the majority of the world's religions in some form and is logically sound and a reasonable hypothesis (although this is not proof it is true).

Possibility 2 is the belief of Xianity but it is not logical and is self contradictory. The logical resolution can only be to return to 1 but this is again contradictory in Xian thought because it is predicated against possibility 1.

This is a blind alley which imo cause the hate, bigotry and frustration which are the characteristic motifs of Xian thought. Clearly these have a psychological origin and are akin to the person who may become a misogynist because he is unable to relate to women.

These Xians hate the other religions just because they have resolved this issue.

Life is a labyrinth and the Xians are stuck in a blind alley - instead of retracing their steps or asking others who are in the maze but not stuck they blindly insist that there is no wall in front of them but open space. the pain they feel from banging their head against the wall is rationalised as the pain of 'the devil'. Which is why they get so annoyed when people claim there is only oneness.

It takes away their pain.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #56 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Micronesian Cargo Cults, Helena Blavatsky, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, My 7 year old nephew Stephen's Theory of Everything, Communism, Dadaism, Nihilism, Atheism, Anti-Atheism, The Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club, Billericay Women's Institute Flower Arranging Committee, Satanism, Gnosticism, the Eleusian Mysteries, Est, Nlp, Advaita, Adi Da, Baba Ram Dass, Uncle Tom Cobley, MarcUK, Salman Rushdie, David Icke, Ike and Tina Turner, Pee Wee Herman......

You totally forgot Steve Jobs.
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #57 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
You totally forgot Steve Jobs.

And he totally put me after uncle tom cobley
post #58 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
And he totally put me after uncle tom cobley

Don't worry - it's not hierarchical there is only oneness.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #59 of 326
ARGUMENT FROM INCOHERENT BABBLE
(1) See that person spazzing on the church floor babbling incoherently?
(2) That's how infinite wisdom reveals itself.
(3) Therefore, God exists.


ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
(1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
(2) I am an idiot.
(3) People often point that out.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

post #60 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
you forgot Mithraism and cult of Isis.

Ok - shove it in there.

(Ooh-err)
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #61 of 326
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz

And Shetline, do us a favor and offer an intellectually coherent alternative to Christianity, then get back to me. You have no philosphical ground to stand on, cheeky webistes wont do.

-45. ARGUMENT FROM COHERENCE
1) I think I'll go eat breakfast.
2) I think I'll respond to the above post first.
3) Desire to go eat breakfast persists.
4) Eating breakfast is a coherent alternative.
5) Therefore, a coherent alternative to Christianity exists.
5a) My breakfast will consist of yogurt, a cereal bar, and sparkling mineral water -- three separate components, but somehow One Breakfast. My alterative gains bonus points for having a triune nature!
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #62 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
This is the major problem that Christianity has theologically and why it is provable as a man made invention although undoubtedly was originally in Jesus's original formation a genuine 'divine' spirituality before it became corrupted.

Let's restate the original contention: everything is one. Christianity and DMZ are arguing against this.

Islam and Judaism are unanimous in agreeing with this oneness, In fact the Zen sect of Buddhism is a derivation of the Islamic Sufi philosophy of oneness which was originally stated by Muhammad and later elaborated by Ibn Arabi.

In this regard, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism (as well as many other religions such as Baha'i, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism) completely agree - albeit in different terminology. It is Christianity that differs. But let''s examine the theological proof:

If God (or the Oneness of being, or the Truth, Reality, whatever we're most comfortable with) has always existed (the Christian contention) then there are two possibilities regarding suffering (a key Buddhist concept) or what Christians call 'evil'.

1) It always existed along with God.
2) It came into being at some point during God's existence.

Those are the only two possibilities.

If Possibility 1 is true then we have the duality that the Buddhist and Islamic models argue does not exist. In these conceptions there is only oneness.

So how can both 'evil' and 'God' exist side by side? Clearly this is nonsense unless one accepts duality. You cannot believe in oneness with this view unless you accept that there is no 'evil' - and this is the Buddhist/Islamic view: there is only what seems from our unenlightened perspective to be 'evil'. We are the ones who place the value judgements and this is what limits us. When we get beyond this we can approach 'wisdom'.

But look at point 2) - the Xian view (actually now I am going to use the term 'Xian" to refer to those I believe are not following Jesus's original teaching so as to avoid derailments):

If 'evil' came into being during God's existence then it [u]MUST
have done so with his approval or else HE is not God. There is no amount of wiseacring or flim-flam that can get round this - though the whole Xian dogma is an attempt to do so.

Look at it this way: if you have a totally sealed scientific environment and it is 100% under your control (not 99.999 0r 99.9998 but 100) then ANYTHING entering that environment is because you allowed it to. If this is not the case then you are not 100% in control.

If this is the case in the analogy of the origin of 'evil' then you are not God. So basically we have a situation where there are only two possibilities.

Possibility 1 is supported by the majority of the world's religions in some form and is logically sound and a reasonable hypothesis (although this is not proof it is true).

Possibility 2 is the belief of Xianity but it is not logical and is self contradictory. The logical resolution can only be to return to 1 but this is again contradictory in Xian thought because it is predicated against possibility 1.

This is a blind alley which imo cause the hate, bigotry and frustration which are the characteristic motifs of Xian thought. Clearly these have a psychological origin and are akin to the person who may become a misogynist because he is unable to relate to women.

These Xians hate the other religions just because they have resolved this issue.

Life is a labyrinth and the Xians are stuck in a blind alley - instead of retracing their steps or asking others who are in the maze but not stuck they blindly insist that there is no wall in front of them but open space. the pain they feel from banging their head against the wall is rationalised as the pain of 'the devil'. Which is why they get so annoyed when people claim there is only oneness.

It takes away their pain. [/B]

There may be hope for you yet, segovious -- I'd have to agree with a large part of how you've set up the problem.

There's only a couple of problems with your observations: you kinda slide on by the part about destroying meaing, or turning it into an illusion of sorts. Oness will collapse any real differentiation -- and that is problematic in building a culutre; either running to the totalitarian extreme or to the 'me generation.' Also, you should consider the possibility that God is uncreated being, and that the arena we inhabit is derivative of God -- not sharing the same stuff as God, and not so metaphysically confining. (And that's not even considering the matter of revelation.)

Peace.

Warning:
AO is a hobby NOT a profession, art, calling, craft, handicraft, métier, vocation, employment, occupation, or otherwise full-time pursuit. Use sparingly. When used carelessly, AO can become a career-bending, gaint time-sucking thingy, more potent than the Concentrated Evil showcased in Time Bandits. Your results may vary. Remember, the only thing that lasts is the hard feelings.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #63 of 326
Thread Starter 
Starting with argument -45, I'd like to establish the precedent that arguments against the existence of God are indexed using negative numbers. For complete consistency, therefore...

0. ARGUMENT FOR AGNOSTICISM
1) I'm not sure.
2) Therefore, God may or may not exist.

With that out of the way...

-327. ARGUMENT FROM INTEL
1) Apple is dropping PowerPC chips for Intel.
2) No, not even Intel-made PowerPCs. We're talking x86 chips! Just like you'd find in a... a... in a Dell!
3) Wouldn't a merciful God have helped Motorola or IBM come up with some better, faster, lower-power PPC chips, before it had to come down to... THIS!? Intel inside!? Intel inside my Mac!?
4) Therefore, God does not exist.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #64 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
There may be hope for you yet, segovious -- I'd have to agree with a large part of how you've set up the problem.

There's only a couple of problems with your observations: you kinda slide on by the part about destroying meaing, or turning it into an illusion of sorts. Oness will collapse any real differentiation -- and that is problematic in building a culutre; either running to the totalitarian extreme or to the 'me generation.' Also, you should consider the possibility that God is uncreated being, and that the arena we inhabit is derivative of God -- not sharing the same stuff as God, and not so metaphysically confining. (And that's not even considering the matter of revelation.)

Peace.

Warning:
AO is a hobby NOT a profession, art, calling, craft, handicraft, métier, vocation, employment, occupation, or otherwise full-time pursuit. Use sparingly. When used carelessly, AO can become a career-bending, gaint time-sucking thingy, more potent than the Concentrated Evil showcased in Time Bandits. Your results may vary. Remember, the only thing that lasts is the hard feelings.

I cannot speak for Buddhism as I have already exhausted my knowledge of it in the previous post but in the Islamic sense only God exists. Nothing else.

It may appear that creation has an independent existence but this is not held to be the case. It masquerades as the real. It is an illusion and the process of spirituality is to transcend that illusion.

This is where Xianity flounders -it has become just another part of the illusion rather than the means of realising the illusion and moving past it as it was originally designed to be.

BUt if Xianity cannot adapt it will die - I have already ventured the opinion that the extremist tendency in that religion represents the realisation of impending demise - because discoveries in physics and science are confirming the illusory nature of reality and spiritual traditions which already accept this will have no problem surviving.

There are many papers available on this correllation. Sufism and Quantum Physics is a good one from an Islmic religious perspective.

Islamic Mysticism is another goodie with quotes such as these (and I'm sure equivalences can be found for Buddhism and other religions too):

Quote:
Time and again the Sufis of Islam and other mystics have been warning mankind that the universe is not real. It is not what it appears to be. It is a phantom. It is a shadow of reality believed to be real by those fettered by the chains of matter-time-space limitations like the inmates of Plato's Cave of Illusion.

It is one of the triumphs of mysticism that modem science, fed up with the inaccuracies of blind physics completely devoid of metaphysical insight has now started echoing the same themes and developed a tendency to bend before mysticism for guidance.

Says Borges, an eminent contemporary physicist, in Other Inquisitions: "Let us admit what all idealists admit - the hallucinatory nature of the world. Let us do what no idealist has done - let us search for unrealities that confirm that nature. I believe we will find them in the antinomies of Kant and in the dialectic of Zeno."

In this quote, Borges presents a view normally held by mystics: the hallucinatory nature of the Universe. "We have dreamed it", says Borges simply.

Michael Talbot voices the same concept in his book, Mysticism and the New Physics. He says: "Our concept of time and space, the very structure of the universe, are more intimately related to problems and phenomenon of consciousness than we have seriously suspected.... There is no strict division between subjective and objective reality, consciousness and the physical universe are connected by some fundamental physical mechanism. This relationship between mind and reality is not subjective or objective, but 'omnijective. An omnijective concept of the universe is by no means new ...

There is a vast philosophical and metaphysical tradition behind the philosophy that the universe is omnijective The mystics tell us this is true. The idealists tell us it is true. Most exciting of all, the physicists tell us it is true."

My bold.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #65 of 326
Sometimes segovius I think you just post articles to catch my attention. Very interesting.

The problem i've got, is that increasingly Sufism or suchlike seems like the thing I've been looking for, I keep wondering if I'm only drawn to it because I'm a fucked up sort of guy, hoping for something to fill a void in my life.

I wonder, if I was married, had kids, good job, nice place to live, a bit less intellectual, more at peace with people - then i wonder if I would still be looking?
post #66 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Sometimes segovius I think you just post articles to catch my attention. Very interesting.

The problem i've got, is that increasingly Sufism or suchlike seems like the thing I've been looking for, I keep wondering if I'm only drawn to it because I'm a fucked up sort of guy, hoping for something to fill a void in my life.

I wonder, if I was married, had kids, good job, nice place to live, a bit less intellectual, more at peace with people - then i wonder if I would still be looking?

Well, it depends on what you're looking for a bit doesn't it ?

Those things you mention can be just stages in a journey anyway. In a sense there is no destination anyway, there is only what you might call a void.

Any spiritual path is (imo) a coming to terms with that fact. A way of understanding it. It doesn't even have to be true (although sometimes one must believe it is), it is a method.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #67 of 326
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
And Shetline, do us a favor and offer an intellectually coherent alternative to Christianity, then get back to me. You have no philosphical ground to stand on, cheeky webistes wont do.

Okay... time for the somewhat less cheeky response.

I question the premise of your request -- that Christianity is intellectually coherent. Especially Biblically literal Christianity.

We've been down this argumentative path before, and you have never succeeded in backing up your claims about the special &uuml;ber-coherence of Christianity. So far it's no more than a claim via vigorous assertion.

You pose as if any other philosophy apart from your brand of Christianity is not only "incoherent", but so laughably any-10-year-old-could-see-it full of internal contradictions that everyone else is, to use a favorite phrase of yours "chasing their own tails".

You're completely incapable of backing this up, however. The closest I've come to pinning you down, when you don't dodge, evade, or simply ignore difficult, challenging questions, is that behind dense layers of abstruse argumentation and rather tenuous interconnections is that you want things to come out a certain way, and that anything that doesn't lead you where you want to go gets labeled "incoherent".
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #68 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I cannot speak for Buddhism as I have already exhausted my knowledge of it in the previous post but in the Islamic sense only God exists. Nothing else.

It may appear that creation has an independent existence but this is not held to be the case. It masquerades as the real. It is an illusion and the process of spirituality is to transcend that illusion.

This is where Xianity flounders -it has become just another part of the illusion rather than the means of realising the illusion and moving past it as it was originally designed to be.

BUt if Xianity cannot adapt it will die - I have already ventured the opinion that the extremist tendency in that religion represents the realisation of impending demise - because discoveries in physics and science are confirming the illusory nature of reality and spiritual traditions which already accept this will have no problem surviving.

There are many papers available on this correllation. Sufism and Quantum Physics is a good one from an Islmic religious perspective.

Islamic Mysticism is another goodie with quotes such as these (and I'm sure equivalences can be found for Buddhism and other religions too):



My bold.

I tend to always think of Islam as "too close" to Christianity and Judaism for my liking. ("Too close" being the safest term I can say to avoid a beheading). But that info gives me a lot more respect for Sufism anyway.

Although I tire of the slow, inexorable aping of Buddhism that modern/New Age branches of Christianity/Judaism/Islam are doing...(They want to make over their religions to include the Buddhist stuff but still want to keep all the crap trappings of their own.) it is nevertheless a nod to it being closer to the truth than they might have originally thought.

But enough with the meek, trepidatious (not a word) New Age dabblings while clinging to the old Big 3 religions for safety...throw it all away for the mythic mess it is and start from scratch using your perceptions and investigation.

IMHO.

Anti-caste, anti-race, anti-nationalism (and yet only as byproducts of right actions/etc., not as strict, specific agendas)...the fundamentals of Buddhism are closest we have to a "best practice" for humanity.

Buddhism is not some solipsistic philosophy or pessimistic nihilism (as it is constantly depicted by Christians and I assume "devout" Jews and Muslims). Nor is the Buddha or "a buddha" a god. (So it isn't idolatry). Nor is Nirvana equivalent to God or Heaven. 'God' and 'heaven' are just imperfect concepts that get dispelled as of no use as dispassionately as jealousy, greed and fear...Nor does it proselytize really (I don't particularly care if you wont "try" it. You might the "next time around". )

"God", as the Abrahamic religions "describe" him, is outside of creation (but yet with various [contrived] methods of interaction). Nirvana is neither person place nor thing; it is the extinguishment of concepts (but not of thinking or observing!), a stopping of grasping for things. Nirvana you could say is the 'result' or 'unavoidable observation' for those that have practiced a certain lifestyle earnestly and with proper understanding of the various teachings (The Three Jewels, The Four Noble Truths, The Noble Eightfold Path, The Five Precepts, etc.). But these are merely helpful roadmaps - one can be enlightened independently, it's just not advisable since the path is tricky. Louis and Clark weren't idiots, they brought a guide. Those teachings lay things out very well in a universal sort of way that anyone should be able to agree with if they are not in stubborn or fearful denial..

But it's up to the individual to inspect their mind and come to the their own conclusions - although it's not a conclusion at all really, more a continuous awareness, a flawless partaking in the "present moment". (The present moment being actually all there really is as far as time is concerned.)

Nirvana is beyond all those definitions too, of course. I'm just trying to distinguish it from "a God" or "a Heaven". As infinite as God or heaven might be, Nirvana transcends even those concepts, if you can imagine (and who can? ). (Here come the death threats)

But it is not a shutting out of perceptions (it is not mere sensory deprivation - otherwise the blind deaf mute would automatically be enlightened) or a denying conventional reality (monks still eat and wash dishes) nor is it a physical debasement ala the Shiite Muharram ritual or others. It is a looking into reality and an acceptance of the painful mess it is and dedicating to a plan of action to get through it most logically, avoiding the animal tendencies.

Impermanence is everywhere. Suffering comes from lack of proper understanding of impermanence. Grasping/longing for the impermanent (i.e., anything) only brings suffering. We constantly expect permanence. We are insane.

Only by being properly aware of the impermanence (and interdependence) can we experience things in a balanced way, in which we can continuously perceive and let go of the illusions.

Neither indulgence nor asceticism are the way.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #69 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
I tend to always think of islam as "too close" to Christianity and Judaism for my liking. ("Too close" being the safest term I can say to avoid a beheading). But that info gives me a lot more respect for Sufism anyway.

Although I tire of the slow, inexorable aping of Buddhism that modern/New Age branches of Christianity/Judaism/Islam are doing...(They want to make over their religions to include the Buddhist stuff but still want to keep all the crap trappings of their own.) it is nevertheless a nod to it being closer to the truth than they might have originally thought.

But enough with the meek, trepidatious (not a word) New Age dabblings while clinging to the old Big 3 religions for safety...throw it all away for the mythic mess it is and start from scratch using your perceptions and investigation.

IMHO.

Anti-caste, anti-race, anti-nationalism (and yet only as byproducts of right actions/etc., not as strict, specific agendas)...the fundamentals of Buddhism are closest we have to a "best practice" for humanity.

Buddhism is not some solipsistic philosophy or pessimistic nihilism (as it is constantly depicted by Christians and I assume "devout" Jews and Muslims). Nor is the Buddha or "a buddha" a god. (So it isn't idolatry). Nor is Nirvana equivalent to God or Heaven. 'God' and 'heaven' are just imperfect concepts that get dispelled as of no use as dispassionately as jealousy, greed and fear...Nor does it proselytize really (I don't particularly care if you wont "try" it. You might the "next time around". )

"God", as the Abrahamic religions "describe" him is outside of creation (but with various [contrived] methods of interaction). Nirvana is neither person place or thing; it is the extinguishment of concepts (but not thinking or observing!), a stopping of grasping for things. Nirvana you could say is the 'result' or 'unavoidable observation' for those that have practiced a certain lifestyle earnestly and with proper understanding of the various teachings (The Three Jewels, The Four Noble Truths, The Noble Eightfold Path, The Five Precepts, etc.) but these are merely helpful roadmaps - one can be enlightened independently, it's just not advisable since the path is tricky. Louis and Clark weren't idiots, they brought a guide.

But it's up to the individual to inspect their mind and come to the their own conclusions - although it's not a conclusion at all really, more a continuous awareness, a flawless partaking in the "present moment". (The present moment being actually all there really is as far as time is concerned.)

Nirvana is beyond all those definitions too, of course. I'm just trying to distinguish it from "a God" or "a Heaven". As infinite as God or heaven might be, Nirvana transcends even those concepts, if you can imagine (and who can? ). (Here come the death threats)

But it is not a shutting out of perceptions (it is not mere sensory deprivation - otherwise the blind deaf mute would automatically be enlightened) or a denying conventional reality (monks still eat and wash dishes) nor is it a physical debasement ala the Shiite Muharram ritual or others. It is a looking into reality and an acceptance of the painful mess it is and dedicating to a plan of action to get through it most logically, avoiding the animal tendencies.

Impermanence is everywhere. Suffering comes from lack of proper understanding of impermanence. Grasping/longing for the impermanent (i.e., anything) only brings suffering. We constantly expect permanence. We are insane.

Only by being properly aware of the impermanence (and interdependence) can we experience things in a balanced way, in which we can continuously perceive and let go of the illusions.

Neither indulgence nor asceticism are the way.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Many religions are now extremist (even the Dalai Lama's Buddhism is a right-wing extremist dogma that unfortunately is the cause of much oppression) and they are all corrupt to a greater or lesser degree. All dangerous and oppressive to a greater or lesser degree.

So when we talk of what they are now we are not talking of the thing they once were. All these religions were in harmony at various points in history, certainly Islam absorbed a lot from Buddhism as it fell heir to Buddhist heartlands in the expansion of its empire and long dialogue was undertaken which involved the exchange of concepts which each adapted into their view.

This is an interesting article I found on the common features of Islam and Buddhism, not sure I agree with all of it but it's worth a read.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #70 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
You're completely incapable of backing this up, however. The closest I've come to pinning you down, when you don't dodge, evade, or simply ignore difficult, challenging questions, is that behind dense layers of abstruse argumentation and rather tenuous interconnections is that you want things to come out a certain way, and that anything that doesn't lead you where you want to go gets labeled "incoherent".

zing!
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #71 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
zing!

..more like "boing"
or
"Dude, where's my epistemology?"

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #72 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
..more like "boing"
or
"Dude, where's my epistemology?"

You want epistemology so badly?

Buddhism *is* epistemology...

And let's not underestimate the influence Buddhism had on the West in theGreco-Buddhism period.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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post #73 of 326
Thread Starter 
There's a common, fundamental error in logic that goes something like this (and if you'll bear with me, I'll get to where I'm going in relationship to God and religion):

A) John is an American ex-Marine with a large gun collection.
B) John is an American ex-Marine with a large gun collection and a member of the NRA.

Ask people which is more likely, A or B. Most people (or at least most Americans, since this is a very culturally-situated question) will answer B.

But B is completely the wrong answer. Consider:

P = probability that John is an American ex-Marine with a large gun collection.
Q = probability that John is a member of the NRA.

Thus:

Probability of A = P
Probability of B = P x Q

As a probability, Q is at most 1 (100%). At most, the probability B is P x 1, or the same as A, no higher.

While it's probably a safe bet that a good number American ex-Marines with large gun collections are members of the NRA, ask the question in another way, "Is each an every American ex-Marine with a large gun collection a member of the NRA?", and people will realize the answer is probably no.

Q < 1, therefore P x Q < P, therefore B is less likely than A.

Why do most people choose B? Because people mistake detail for credibility, more complete stories for more accurate stories, rather than realizing that the fewer details you claim, the fewer holes you're likely to have in your story.

This is, in part, why I believe theology, religion, and various spiritual beliefs tend to become so baroque over time. Very few people are satisfied with, say, a God who created the Universe... end of story. They want to attribute a Plan to this God. They want to attribute concern for human affairs to this God. They want to find a source of moral standards in this God. They want their God to provide an opportunity for their own Eternal Life. Etc., etc. Many people will mistake this piling-on of rich detail with a greater likelihood of having compiled an accurate picture of the "way things are".

Presuming that a God of any sort exists at all, however, every single wished-for attribute, unless the probability that your God has a particular attribute can be proven to be an absolute 100%, lowers the chance that your picture of a Divine Being has anything to do with any sort of entity that actually exists.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #74 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
You want epistemology so badly?

Buddhism *is* epistemology...

you're a very funny guy, johnq.

Shetline: I do understand you point, but in the end you need a consistent reason for getting out of bed in the morning -- what you're saying is just more of man starting with himself as sufficient -- and it just hasn't yet been made to work on paper. Yes the mystical option is always there, but that's really a cop out as far as I'm concerned.

Just trying to keep you honest, this thread was getting the learing, weezing, WHERE"S THE BABY"S ROOM!!?? quality with regards to Christians. To each his own -- but at the same time we have to keep things in prespective, philosophically. The minute anyone stops acknowledging their presuppositions is when this become something of an intellectual BB-Gun fight.

I have put in an order for Cointreau, Cuervo, and Limes -- what's the probability that I'm going to have an authentic margarita? Anyway, isn't there a rule against doing math on a Saturday afternoon?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #75 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
you're a very funny guy, johnq.

Shetline: I do understand you point, but in the end you need a consistent reason for getting out of bed in the morning

Why ? Why not stay in bed ?

God doesn't care.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #76 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Why ? Why not stay in bed ?

God doesn't care.

FINE

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #77 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
FINE

No, I mean it - you should stay in bed much more often. Really.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #78 of 326
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No, I mean it - you should stay in bed much more often. Really.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #79 of 326
Please answer the questions.

This where you *always* jump in the escape pod and whine everyone is "attacking" when we're merely applying your own standards and requirements against you and Christianity.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
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Originally posted by dmz
Shetline: I do understand you point, but in the end you need a consistent reason for getting out of bed in the morning

Apparently I get by without such a reason. Apparently lots of other people do. Apparently there are many different reasons, consistent, inconsistent, mundane, bizarre... for people to get out of bed in the morning.

Besides, whatever "need" I might have, the universe doesn't owe me fulfillment of my needs. Imagining things that fulfill my needs is hardly a promising way to uncover new truths about the universe.
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...what you're saying is just more of man starting with himself as sufficient

Sufficient for what? Sufficient to what end?

I suspect that what you mean is something like providing "sufficient reason to want to live", "sufficient reason to live a moral life", "sufficient sense of purpose", etc.

Again, the universe doesn't owe me a reason to live. The universe doesn't owe me a moral compass. The universe isn't required to provide me with a neatly-packaged pre-determined purpose.
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...and it just hasn't yet been made to work on paper.

Are you claiming that, conversely, your particular brand of Christianity does "work on paper"? How? Like a mathematical equation being solved?
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Yes the mystical option is always there, but that's really a cop out as far as I'm concerned.

Your standards for what is or is not a "cop out" aren't that clear. At any rate, about the only "mysticism" I have much appreciation for is the admission that there's a lot which is mysterious. Unfortunately, the term "mysticism" doesn't generally imply a practice of stopping short of filling in gaps in understanding and knowledge with wishful thinking and projected desires.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
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