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The F1 suicide

post #1 of 62
Thread Starter 
F1 is now dead. at least in the states with this crime of a start. the smartest most advanced racers in the world cant handle a ~4 degree bank? that is fucking hilarious! those guys would shit if they saw the track at Bristol Tenn that Nascar uses 2 times per year.

So glad I decided not to get a basic standing room pass to the USGP that woulda been a waste of money, and I can damn sure tell you that I will not go next year either

info if you arent watching:
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=33185
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post #2 of 62
i dont really think you can blame the teams (appart from ferrari), you need to blame the fia. I will explain:

Mitchelin brought the wrong tirea with them. Ok, big mistake on someones part. But the triedto get some new ones, but the fia wouldnt let them use them.
They then tried to put a chicane in at the last corner, all the teams agreed execept ferrari, so it dodnt happen.(i think it was ferrari anyway.)

The fia were toltally unwilling to make a comprimise at all, and i think the teams were right to pull out as it was a matter of safety, not only the drivers, but the stewards, pit crews and spectators.

There were almost only the two ferraris starting the race.

Formula one ay well now be dead in america, but it never reallly took off to start with.
It will be fine in the rest of the world, but the fia is doing the sport a great dis-service.

The fia has far more money than sense.
post #3 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by stustanley
i dont really think you can blame the teams (appart from ferrari),

whats the problem with ferrari? they just tried to put on a show, had everyone parked, there would have beeen mob riots in indianapolis!

also the local announcers on wibc AM, indianapolis said a lot of sponcers were already ticked at the FIA and on the fence, as was BMW, and this may have been the shove that they needed to get out
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post #4 of 62
Rumour is that 9 out of the 10 teams were looking to have a chicane put into the course to solve the problem.

Guess which team was not included.

Yes Ferrari is in the "right", but was it worth it?
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post #5 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Omega
Rumour is that 9 out of the 10 teams were looking to have a chicane put into the course to solve the problem.

Guess which team was not included.

Yes Ferrari is in the "right", but was it worth it?

why change the track layout minutes before the race when the teams (at least the responsable ones) were preparing for the track as it was, also, the word on the radio was the teams were not inflating the tires to the manufacturer spec, and if that is true, then it is soley the Michelin teams fault, not the manufacturer its self
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post #6 of 62
What the fuck is a chicane?
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post #7 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
What the fuck is a chicane?

Two sharp corners designed to slow the cars done

eg a sharp left right corner
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post #8 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by a_greer
why change the track layout minutes before the race when the teams (at least the responsable ones) were preparing for the track as it was, also, the word on the radio was the teams were not inflating the tires to the manufacturer spec, and if that is true, then it is soley the Michelin teams fault, not the manufacturer its self

The proposal was not made "minutes" before the race. There was sufficient time to build a temporary chicane according to most parties involved.

I do find it amusing that BE puts all these restrictions on the tyres that can be used and now will sanction Michelin for non-performance. Michelin had a tyre that could have been used. They were not allowed to use them according to the rules BE implemented.

From most accounts the Michelin runners would have been happy to race today with the new tyres and not receive any points, giving the fans a spectacle that in the very least was better than this.

It would have also been interesting if Jordan had not raced and honoured the agreement to not race unless a chicane had been in place. Minardi only went out because Jordan did (they are racing each other in the constructors).

This would have only left Ferrari on the track. Would it have been black flagged?
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post #9 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by Omega
Two sharp corners designed to slow the cars done

eg a sharp left right corner

Ah....

That is more or less what I thought it was...
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post #10 of 62
Quote:
whats the problem with ferrari?

the problem i had with ferrari is that they wouldnt agree to put in the chicane when the other 9 teams would, im suspecting that they knew this would mean the other teams couldnt race, giving them 18 easy points in the constrructors champ.


There was plenty of time for a number of options to be carried out, and as a fan of the sport i am extremely dissapointed at the show given today.
post #11 of 62
It was ridiculous...but not for the "reasons" the poster stated. Either way, I'd almost* rather watch 6 Formula 1 cars going around a circuit than 40 cars going around and around and around in an oval/circle for two or three hours.
post #12 of 62
Sorry a_greer, but I guess you don't know too much about the sport? Completely the FIAs fault for not giving any kind of show. I'm guessing you are American? Not stereotyping or nowt, but many Americans I speak to just don't get formula 1. However I completely agree with Omega's and stustanley's posts in this thread.

Hopefully all of the people in the grandstands will get a refund and the circuit managers will sue the FIA for such a stupid waste of time and money for them. So the losers here are the fans, and the winners seem to be the FIA. Of course the fans pay the cash and the FIA makes it. The FIA need to tread carefully now and stop mucking with our rules every year (or every few months on some occasions).

But yes F1 would seem sadly dead now for the US. It's a shame to lose an interesting and different circuit - which I would guess is guaranteed.



As an aside, I didn't know why the Indycars needed a perfectly dry track to run on when I saw them over here a few years ago. I also couldn't work out why then they held the British race in September (as opposed to a dryer August)... Hey ho.
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post #13 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by danielctull
But yes F1 would seem sadly dead now for the US. It's a shame to lose an interesting and different circuit - which I would guess is guaranteed.

As an aside, I didn't know why the Indycars needed a perfectly dry track to run on when I saw them over here a few years ago. I also couldn't work out why then they held the British race in September (as opposed to a dryer August)... Hey ho.

I almost cried when I saw what happened today. As an F1 fan, an American, and someone who works (peripherally) in the auto racing business, I was hoping that F1 would start to catch on more in the states.

I don't know if the blame can be placed squarely on anyone's shoulders, but, with this year's travesty and last year's generally bad race, it does feel like Formula 1 was trying to sabotage its existence in the USA. I don't believe that's the case, but it feels like it. I'm inclined to bet, though, that the reason for the problems has more to do with the relative uniqueness of the Indianapolis road course itself. In order to foster a better F1 climate in the US, the US tracks should be bread-and-butter F1 tracks over which the powers-that-be can sleepwalk through their preparations. The fact that all of this confusion over chicanes and downdraft and everything else exists at all is really, in my eyes, the root of the problem. F1 teams, the suppliers, and the admin have the luxury to worry about little more than the big events, which the US grand prix is unfortunately not.
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post #14 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by danielctull
Not stereotyping or nowt, but many Americans I speak to just don't get formula 1.

It's not our cup of tea. We don't really care for road racing and we despise elitism which are both intertwined in Formula One. To us, the racing is very boring and besides Montoya we really can't stand any of the drivers.
post #15 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
It's not our cup of tea. We don't really care for road racing and we despise elitism which are both intertwined in Formula One. To us, the racing is very boring and besides Montoya we really can't stand any of the drivers.

That's a pretty broad statement. Clearly, the 145 thousand people who went to the US grand prix wanted to see some road racing. But I'm really curious how you find slower, oval track racing in less optimized cars to be more exciting [or less boring] than F1. Most of Nascar's success can be pinned on the fact that International Speedway Corp found that generally-Southern males, a demographic that enjoys getting toasted for three day weekends, would be happy to drive long distances and pay a lot of money if the drivers were also generally-southern males. ISC and Nascar have done a brilliant marketing job, and "Generally-Southern" has now expanded to "middle-American," but for folks like me who have grown up East coast cities, the cosmopolitan flair of F1 is still a much more comfortable ambiance.

Lastly, you speak of elitism. The elitism is there for sure, just the other way around: At Nascar I take plenty of guff for being a "city boy F1 fan." Also, despite the myth perpetuated by "Days of Thunder," there's plenty of aristocracy in Nascar. Fuck: people cheer when "Junior" does so much as start his engine.

F1 clearly has an audience in America. The guy who figures out how to market it, especially after having to clean up the mess from this incident, will be a rich man.
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post #16 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
The elitism is there for sure, just the other way around:

++

Nascar driver's are just a bunch of hill billies, with not much sense (eg. rusty wallace). The cars travel at the same speed for the entire duration of the race, and only turn in one direction. Not much of a sport, auto racing wise.
post #17 of 62
They were saying that Bernie was trying to get a race on the Strip. Wonder where this debacle leaves that plan......

As for F1 being elitist, I think we can say that to drive a car competively for a job you are already elitist, whether F1, Indy cars or Nascar.

This is no longer about being a sport, it is a business.
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post #18 of 62
If Michelin had supplied the correct tires (read: tires that didn't shift the belts when subjected to vertical g loads), then the race would have continued as it should have. The only blame Ferrari have in this is not compromising the fact that they showed up with all of the correct equipment to race and, as such, not agreeing to slow down the corner for the other teams who were not ready.

It's not like they added the corner-banking on Thursday night. Michelin were asleep at the wheel, so to speak, and will feel the pain of this if the FIA go ahead with one tire supplier in 2008.
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post #19 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
If Michelin had supplied the correct tires (read: tires that didn't shift the belts when subjected to vertical g loads), then the race would have continued as it should have.

I was under the impression that even the new tyres they shipped over (and arrived Sunday morning) were not going to perform safely on this circuit, which leads you to believe that maybe that they had NO tyres suitable for this circuit.

Looks more and more like a control tyre will be back in the future, and no guesses who it comes from.
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post #20 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
If Michelin had supplied the correct tires (read: tires that didn't shift the belts when subjected to vertical g loads), then the race would have continued as it should have. The only blame Ferrari have in this is not compromising the fact that they showed up with all of the correct equipment to race and, as such, not agreeing to slow down the corner for the other teams who were not ready.

It's not like they added the corner-banking on Thursday night. Michelin were asleep at the wheel, so to speak, and will feel the pain of this if the FIA go ahead with one tire supplier in 2008.

In fairness, they don't do any testing at Indy to get full info on it. And you're right Ferrari don't have any blame, no-one sympathised with them when they had tyre problems, so why should they stop when they have an advantage.

Also I can see the interest in Indycars, they all have the same spec and from what I've seen fewer rules about what they can do. They usually have closer races, which any F1 fan has been dying for, and we are only just getting now.
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post #21 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
++
Nascar driver's are just a bunch of hill billies, with not much sense (eg. rusty wallace). The cars travel at the same speed for the entire duration of the race, and only turn in one direction. Not much of a sport, auto racing wise.

I would love to see an F1 Driver try and handle a 3400 pound stockcar with 800 horsepower and none of the technology that he is used to. I highly doubt that that driver could handle himself with such a heavy and poor handling racecar (compared to F1 and IRL) in a 43 car pack at 190 mph - not to mention bump drafting and racing three and four wide into a corner.

As for the hillbilly reference, Rusty is from St. Louis, point leader Jimmie Johnson is from the San Diego area, yesterday's race winner, Greg Biffle, is from Oregon.

I think your disdain for Nascar is blinding you from its reality.
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post #22 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by danielctull
In fairness, they don't do any testing at Indy to get full info on it.

Although the track was just resurfaced this year, F1 has raced on the banking for the past 5 years. Michelin deserve all of the blame in this incident.

Here's the statement that the FIA released this morning:

Quote:
"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances.

A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."
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post #23 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Although the track was just resurfaced this year, F1 has raced on the banking for the past 5 years. Michelin deserve all of the blame in this incident.

Here's the statement that the FIA released this morning:

Well in a technical point of vue, I think that slowing down at the 13 is very difficult to achieve in a race. Drivers do not look at their speed meter while driving. By instinct most drivers would have not reduce their speed in the turn 13 if someone was behind them. An accident could have occur and the drama will be there.

All party involved are right here, it's unfortunate that the people who paid to see the race where screwed.
post #24 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
I would love to see an F1 Driver try and handle a 3400 pound stockcar with 800 horsepower and none of the technology that he is used to. I highly doubt that that driver could handle himself with such a heavy and poor handling racecar (compared to F1 and IRL) in a 43 car pack at 190 mph - not to mention bump drafting and racing three and four wide into a corner.

First off, don't confuse all of us as nascar haters. I think Nascar is fine: i just like indy more, and i like F1 more than indy. But to get to the point, Jeff Gordon made the conversion from open to closed wheel racing pretty quickly. Good drivers are good drivers, but since the F1 circuit draws from a much larger pool of top racers than any other circuit, logic dictates that its drivers are the best overall. That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.

Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
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post #25 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.

Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.

Thanks for the clarification, Cool Gut's original post had an edge to it.

As for the American F1 deal and Nascar drivers, I think it comes down to money. Nascar is this country's largest spectator sport and there are billions of dollars associated with the Nextel Cup, as you know. What is the incentive for a Nextel Cup driver to leave for F1? Even when F1 races are broadcast here in the US, what kind of ratings do they draw? Other than guys like Borris Said and Robbie Gordon, who are already established road racers, I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.
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post #26 of 62
F1 is for Pansies,Fairy's and Lightweights, you want a real car get into a Nascar and dont cry about ovals they also have some tracks for you like Sears, etc. This crap of one kind of tire to Qualify and another for Racing is more Pantywaist where is my mommy kind of crap. Nascar dont Play those games. I like the #15 car. What do you expect from a bunch of non rednecks? Racing?
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post #27 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
What is the incentive for a Nextel Cup driver to leave for F1? . . . I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.

You're absolutely right. It's all about the money. If someone with deep pockets wanted to breed F1 interest in the states, though, his best opportunity in doing so would be to grab a guy like Gordon or Hornish Jr. and try to get him into an F1 car. Both of these guys have established careers in Nascar and Indy respectively, and both, I'm pretty sure, have actually driven F1 cars before, just not in any sort of competition.

Anyway, that's just a pile of hope and dreams without substance.

Out of curiosity, do you plan on getting VIP section tickets to any NASCAR or Indy races in the near future? I'm on the long-term product dev side of things, so I don't make it out to many of the events, but I might be at Homestead in November. (If you ever put on an RFID wristband at a race, that's me. . .)
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post #28 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.

What makes you think they're good enough for F1?

"Ah cain't handle all them instramants on mah wheel Billy Bob".

NASCAR is the most retarded sport on earth. And those fugly piece of shit cars are 3400 pounds?? No wonder they have to race them in oval tracks. lol

I think they even have horns.
post #29 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
First off, don't confuse all of us as nascar haters. I think Nascar is fine: i just like indy more, and i like F1 more than indy. But to get to the point, Jeff Gordon made the conversion from open to closed wheel racing pretty quickly. Good drivers are good drivers, but since the F1 circuit draws from a much larger pool of top racers than any other circuit, logic dictates that its drivers are the best overall. That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.

Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.

I was at the Brickyard 400 like 2 years ago and the PA guy interviewed Gordon, he talked about making a special trip into indy durring F1 testing and trying out an F1 car on the road course, and the driver of the f1 car (I don't know what driver it was) drove a Nascar that Gordon brought in and Gordon said somthing like "I would love to race F1 ifr I didn't have it so good here in Nascar" and the F1 driver according to gordon liked the Nascar and said that it was fun to drive in a differant way, no whistles and bells, just the driver and his skill.
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post #30 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
F1 is for Pansies,Fairy's and Lightweights, you want a real car get into a Nascar and dont cry about ovals they also have some tracks for you like Sears, etc. This crap of one kind of tire to Qualify and another for Racing is more Pantywaist where is my mommy kind of crap. Nascar dont Play those games. I like the #15 car. What do you expect from a bunch of non rednecks? Racing?

Hate to pop your bubble, but Nascar uses (or at least used to use) several compounds of goodyears. A very slick compound is used to qualify, it is all about speed. In the race, a differant, beetter handeling, longer lasting compound is used to race.

Also: IIRC F1 allows one set of tires per race baring a tire failure...Nascar changes tires like 3-4 times per race. so tires are more of a key for F1
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post #31 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
Nascar is this country's largest spectator sport

How true is this exactly? It seems there are only about 40 Nascar races or so. If you assume 100,000 to 300,000 people per race, that's about 4-12 million people. The Big Ten college football conference alone has something like 5.5 million people per year. I'm guessing Nascar isn't close to being "the country's largest spectator sport."
post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan
As for the hillbilly reference, Rusty is from St. Louis, point leader Jimmie Johnson is from the San Diego area, yesterday's race winner, Greg Biffle, is from Oregon.

Maybe hick is a better description.
post #33 of 62
Euro's dont know what they are saying except some excuses for a bunch of sissy's making more excuses because they cant race on the P.O.S. French Tire. Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........
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post #34 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Euro's dont know what they are saying except some excuses for a bunch of sissy's making more excuses because they cant race on the P.O.S. French Tire. Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........

I wouldn't call 'dents and scrapes' a sign of a good driver. Sloppy, perhaps.
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post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........

That's because those heavy and ugly piece of shit cars can't turn for **** and the drivers aren't good enough for anything else. Except maybe demolition derbies.
post #36 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent
Maybe hick is a better description.

lol I'm quite fond of the term redneck myself.

NASCAR= NECKCAR
post #37 of 62
When you have 120 000 people ready and waiting to watch some racing, you have to put aside rivalries and put on a show.

Maybe the bridgstone runners could have started at the front. or the other teams could have had a time penalty. or both.

I suspect heads will roll at michelin, as they will have to pony up £ millions compensation.
post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
I wouldn't call 'dents and scrapes' a sign of a good driver. Sloppy, perhaps.

No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.

True, Also what the Euro's dont know is we have Infineon this weekend. Not a Oval but lots of corners and they arent driving little airplanes as F1 they are driving 3500lbs of auto that hit 200mph! Watch out im coming through!
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post #40 of 62
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.

Hey, NASCAR, 1940's calling ... they want their cars back.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › The F1 suicide