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post #41 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Reminds me of America, we have the extreme right Bible thumpers destroying every ounce of freedom we have left.Just Look at how they are spinning science here in the U.S.A. Look where George has taken us in 5 years. He has undone 50 years of progress. Iran will be just the same, another Zealot state of fanatics pushing their Book. America/Iran both ran by extremist who can only think in those narrow religious terms. Now lets see what did the Bible/Koran say on the issue of popcorn after dark? These are the folks that will destroy this world. For their selfish system of belief. We cant do much about Iran but we can clean house here in the U.S.A. Vote out all incumbants. its the only way.

At least you can vote in USA.

I've heard from the interview of iranian living in France (many refused to talk publicly) that the new governement will not change many things : the former president was only a vitrine, an appareance of relative freedoom and democracy, but there wasn't any democracy.
With the new governement things are simple : it appear the way they really are.
post #42 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
At least you can vote in USA.

I've heard from the interview of iranian living in France (many refused to talk publicly) that the new governement will not change many things : the former president was only a vitrine, an appareance of relative freedoom and democracy, but there wasn't any democracy.
With the new governement things are simple : it appear the way they really are.

Vote for what? Democrats ran by special interest or the Republicans ran by special interests? The Makers of the constitution didnt intend Corporations to run Congress through campaign donations did it?
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #43 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Vote for what? Democrats ran by special interest or the Republicans ran by special interests? The Makers of the constitution didnt intend Corporations to run Congress through campaign donations did it?

All democracies, have their failures, but they are still democracies. Iran is not, the supreme guide of the revolution and the religious councils have all the real power.
post #44 of 277
What Iran has isnt a democracy, what we have isnt one either. As for going to war with Iran I think thats a mistake but they cannot be allowed to go nuclear. I would prefer airstrikes at their facilities to the point they are buried under thousands of feet of earth. By wanting to make these weapons they are in effect saying come and get us. Mistake with the Republican Zealots running our govt at the moment. Hard liner vs Hard liner is going to end up as war.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #45 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
All democracies, have their failures, but they are still democracies. Iran is not, the supreme guide of the revolution and the religious councils have all the real power.

Why is democracy the benchmark ?

To me it is not a question of democracy, which I do not anyway believe in personally, but a question of whether the rulers of a state administer justice and are not corrupt.

Freedom is (more or less) an illusion and it is merely a matter of degrees of relative/perceived freedom and, more importantly, the type of freedoms a given people want.

Admittedly Iran has not had justice since the days of the Caliphate but then again the freedoms that the people aspire to (and are prevented from enjoying) should not be assumed t be the same as those that we in the west might aspire to were we in the same position.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #46 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
[B]Why is democracy the benchmark ?

It does not matter if you have a just ruler in a dictatorship. Eventually his spoiled son will destroy the country.

At least here, the son has to pass some kind of benchmark of capibility and appeal before he is elected.
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post #47 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
It does not matter if you have a just ruler in a dictatorship. Eventually his spoiled son will destroy the country.

At least here, the son has to pass some kind of benchmark of capibility and appeal before he is elected.

There are arguments against that but I kind of get the impression it is a bt futile to expand on them.

Iranians elected this hardliner in an election btw. That probably needs to be borne in mind.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #48 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Or we flatten people like you....that's always another option and the way to go imo.

It's people like you that make these things happen - you go on and on about things that aren't true till you make them true.

Congratulations - the belligerent US foreign policy has driven yet another country into the extreme.

But then again, that's the point isn't it?

And whats your solution, big shot?
Do nothing while Iran develops Nuclear weapons?
Iran drove itself into the extreme, no help necessary.
post #49 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
There are arguments against that but I kind of get the impression it is a bt futile to expand on them.

Iranians elected this hardliner in an election btw. That probably needs to be borne in mind.

There has been a time when democracy faltered, and people thought that it was too inefficient. Europe in the early 1930s - people were fed up with democracy, and they looked back with nostalgia at the kings of the 19th century.

There were too many pollitical parties, and they could never agree on things, so nothing got done. The people wanted strong leadership, they wanted the age of dictators and kings to return, and they got it...
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post #50 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
There has been a time when democracy faltered, and people thought that it was too inefficient. Europe in the early 1930s - people were fed up with democracy, and they looked back with nostalgia at the kings of the 19th century.

There were too many pollitical parties, and they could never agree on things, so nothing got done. The people wanted strong leadership, they wanted the age of dictators and kings to return, and they got it...

And that could happen again at any moment - the lust for power of th dictator can be just as prevelant in a democracy as in a totalitarian system.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #51 of 277
True but the problem at the moment is a Nuclear Iran. I dont think this is good for the region nor the world. There are 3 options.......engage them with the carrot, or engage them with the stick, or do nothing. I hear a lot of do nothing.Europeans? I like the carrot and stick approach. doing nothing is just that.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #52 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
True but the problem at the moment in a Nuclear Iran. I dont think this is good for the region nor the world. There are 3 options.......engage them with the carrot, or engage them with the stick, or do nothing. I hear a lot of do nothing.Europeans? I like the carrot and stick approach. doing nothing is just that.

Exactamundo

Senor Fonzie
post #53 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
True but the problem at the moment in a Nuclear Iran. I dont think this is good for the region nor the world. There are 3 options.......engage them with the carrot, or engage them with the stick, or do nothing. I hear a lot of do nothing.Europeans? I like the carrot and stick approach. doing nothing is just that.

The carrot does not work - just look at North Korea. Clinton tried the carrot.
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post #54 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The carrot does not work - just look at North Korea. Clinton tried the carrot.

then its time to try the stick
post #55 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
then its time to try the stick

We all know what happens when you go after a hornet's nest with a stick, and it ain't pretty.
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post #56 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
We all know what happens when you go after a hornet's nest with a stick, and it ain't pretty.

It also isn't good to keep the hornets around.
post #57 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
It also isn't good to keep the hornets around.

Indeed.
I think we can also agree that safe removal of the hornets will require something a bit more sophisticated than the brute force of a stick.
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post #58 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Indeed.
I think we can also agree that safe removal of the hornets will require something a bit more sophisticated than the brute force of a stick.

Yup. I certainly hope we, or they (Israel) are planning something.
post #59 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
And that could happen again at any moment - the lust for power of th dictator can be just as prevelant in a democracy as in a totalitarian system.

The totalitarian dictator already has the power, he doesn't need to lust for it. A president can never have as much power as a Tsar or a Sultan or a King.

I can't believe that you are seriously suggesting that a totalitarian state is better for the people than a democracy. You spend a lot of time complaining about the US ruling class, and then you suggest a ruling class with even more power? You are making no sense...
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post #60 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The totalitarian dictator already has the power, he doesn't need to lust for it. A president can never have as much power as a Tsar or a Sultan or a King.

I can't believe that you are seriously suggesting that a totalitarian state is better for the people than a democracy. You spend a lot of time complaining about the US ruling class, and then you suggest a ruling class with even more power? You are making no sense...

You clearly judge totalitarian states by their worst examples. There are many that are no problem to anyone at all - even in the Islamic world.

Jordan - westernised and very pro-western.

Morocco - monarchy also.

Brunei, Kuwait, Oman, UAE.

The problem with your line of thought if you don't mind me saying is that you cannot judge things from any position other than a western mindset.

This is good and efficient when dealing with western concepts but when applied to the east it goes very wrong.

Hence, someone with such a view must either change it, ignore the facts or else change' the east (ie 'westernize' it or support such).

I think it would be beneficial to educate yourself about the region from the pov of the region which is the first option but it's up to you.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #61 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Yup. I certainly hope we, or they (Israel) are planning something.

And yes, they're back......

by popular demand: the massed chorus of the xenophobes and bigots little amerika frightened hearts club band.

Prior to their sell out World Tour (North Korea and China - cancelled) which is now playing extended middle eastern dates, the band will be reprising their smash hits of current years remixed and re-edited for 2005:

Iraqi WMDs

Baby in an Incubator

Hitler reloaded

Why do you hate America ?


And who can forget the smasheroonie party hit:

45 minute warning

The band will also be previewing their new single - a cover of David Bowies 'always crashing in the same car'.

100,000 free tickets are being given away buy the Recruiting Office - just apply in person.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #62 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Why is democracy the benchmark ?

To me it is not a question of democracy, which I do not anyway believe in personally, but a question of whether the rulers of a state administer justice and are not corrupt.

Freedom is (more or less) an illusion and it is merely a matter of degrees of relative/perceived freedom and, more importantly, the type of freedoms a given people want.

Admittedly Iran has not had justice since the days of the Caliphate but then again the freedoms that the people aspire to (and are prevented from enjoying) should not be assumed t be the same as those that we in the west might aspire to were we in the same position.

In a theorical point of vue you are right, but in practice, I better live in any part of europe rather than Iran.

In order to make party, young people take risks. They organise the parties in their parent's home : if the milice caught them, they will be sent to jail. This people don't care who is the president, but they just want to have fun. The Iran rulers does not simply allow this.
If we have the illusion of liberty, many iranian people have the illusion of living in a prison.
I just think that one illusion is better than another.

Now to be clear, If something good will happen in Iran, it must come from the Iranian people. I am against the intervention of an external power. It will just lead to an another mess with hundreds thousands deaths.
post #63 of 277
I can't believe you're all buying this crap. Iran geting the bomb is a logical step in the ME after Israel was allowed to have it. Iran having the bomb is the same as Pakistan and China having it. Not good, but absolutely something the world can live with. The chance of them using it is low. Remember that only one nation has yet used the bomb. We all know who.

From an Irani perspective it is a necessity. They don't see their safty and sovereginity guaranteed in any other way. And the resposibility for creating the situation where Iran feels that getting the bomb is the only way to be safe from the west has to be shared by us.

So snap out of it.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #64 of 277
You sound like a Euro New, there is no logical step for folks to acquire these things. Another lets do nothing We want to decrease Nukes not increase them. Only reason Isreali's have them is because they are surrounded and out numbered by folks who have tried to exterminate them for years.. New talks like Iran is a respected member of the world community and trade groups. Under his spin the only one who shouldnt have them are......... lets see.............. Do nothing is doing nothing. pull the spin out please.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #65 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by New
I can't believe you're all buying this crap. Iran geting the bomb is a logical step in the ME after Israel was allowed to have it. Iran having the bomb is the same as Pakistan and China having it. Not good, but absolutely something the world can live with. The chance of them using it is low. Remember that only one nation has yet used the bomb. We all know who.

From an Irani perspective it is a necessity. They don't see their safty and sovereginity guaranteed in any other way. And the resposibility for creating the situation where Iran feels that getting the bomb is the only way to be safe from the west has to be shared by us.

So snap out of it.

Well they claim they're not getting the bomb, and they are signatories of the non-proliferation treaty.
post #66 of 277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Well they claim they're not getting the bomb, and they are signatories of the non-proliferation treaty.

The only people who claim they are are the US - the same people that want to invade and came up with the 'axis of evil' shit.

One of that triad is down - using similar lies about the false threat they represented.

The only people buying into the Iranian threat shit are the usual morons. the Iranians are the ones under threat and as New says have a right to defend themselves.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #67 of 277
coming soon...confirmation that the US administration has been in talks with the insurgency. Why would that be?
post #68 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The only people who claim they are are the US - the same people that want to invade and came up with the 'axis of evil' shit.

One of that triad is down - using similar lies about the false threat they represented.

The only people buying into the Iranian threat shit are the usual morons. the Iranians are the ones under threat and as New says have a right to defend themselves.

Well New also claims that they're getting da bomb.
post #69 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You clearly judge totalitarian states by their worst examples. There are many that are no problem to anyone at all - even in the Islamic world.

Jordan - westernised and very pro-western.

Morocco - monarchy also.

Brunei, Kuwait, Oman, UAE.

The problem with your line of thought if you don't mind me saying is that you cannot judge things from any position other than a western mindset.

This is good and efficient when dealing with western concepts but when applied to the east it goes very wrong.

Hence, someone with such a view must either change it, ignore the facts or else change' the east (ie 'westernize' it or support such).

I think it would be beneficial to educate yourself about the region from the pov of the region which is the first option but it's up to you.

Litchenstein and Monaco, also.

But these are all small countries, and all they need is a bad herideditary leader to screw everything up.

Big countries are an entirely different matter - small countries have to be polite to their neighbors, big countries have fewer constraints.

I think that China has done a pretty good job as a totalitarian large country - and since they were so poor they needed a totalitarian regime. I expect in the future, as they become richer, they will transition to democracy.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #70 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
And yes, they're back......

by popular demand: the massed chorus of the xenophobes and bigots little amerika frightened hearts club band.

Prior to their sell out World Tour (North Korea and China - cancelled) which is now playing extended middle eastern dates, the band will be reprising their smash hits of current years remixed and re-edited for 2005:

Iraqi WMDs

Baby in an Incubator

Hitler reloaded

Why do you hate America ?


And who can forget the smasheroonie party hit:

45 minute warning

The band will also be previewing their new single - a cover of David Bowies 'always crashing in the same car'.

100,000 free tickets are being given away buy the Recruiting Office - just apply in person.

And yes, he's back. The pompous blowhard who doesn't know shit from shinola.
post #71 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by New
I can't believe you're all buying this crap. Iran geting the bomb is a logical step in the ME after Israel was allowed to have it. Iran having the bomb is the same as Pakistan and China having it. Not good, but absolutely something the world can live with. The chance of them using it is low. Remember that only one nation has yet used the bomb. We all know who.

From an Irani perspective it is a necessity. They don't see their safty and sovereginity guaranteed in any other way. And the resposibility for creating the situation where Iran feels that getting the bomb is the only way to be safe from the west has to be shared by us.

So snap out of it.

Iran is far different from China.
Iran is a country that chants death to America in its Parliament. The Govmnt is our enemy. they fund terrorists, who is to say they wouldnt give the technology or actual weapons to them?
Iran has no use for nuclear energy so its an obvious lie. If they do get Nukes it wont protect them because we would have to smash them.
They would be far better off if they ditched the technology and tried to join the world again and stop acting like they are still in the 5th Century.
post #72 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Well they claim they're not getting the bomb, and they are signatories of the non-proliferation treaty.

The UN has already caught them in more than one lie.

Iran has no use for nuclear energy-they want the bomb.
We cant let them get the bomb, so we must stop them-any way we can.
post #73 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The only people who claim they are are the US - the same people that want to invade and came up with the 'axis of evil' shit.

One of that triad is down - using similar lies about the false threat they represented.

The only people buying into the Iranian threat shit are the usual morons. the Iranians are the ones under threat and as New says have a right to defend themselves.

The only morons are the ones who dont think Iran is a threat.
That is, until they actually are a threat, then they call in the cavalry-the U.S.

Why don't you do-nothings stay out of it and let the big boys handle the problem, like always unfortunately.

And I'm not talking about Iraq, this is the real threat. Bush picked the country with the wrong letter at the end.
post #74 of 277
What a lot of folks are missing is who is giving Iran this technology?. Anyone say Russia? why the hell would U.S. companies invest in Russia when they are giving the bomb to Iran. This is the question we should be asking after we destroy their Nuke plants under billions of tons of Rubble. Bush sucks and everything he stands for does but if he destroyed Irans Nuke facilities tomorrow i wouldnt shed a tear and Europe though blind would breathe easier only they are to stupid to realize.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #75 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
What a lot of folks are missing is who is giving Iran this technology?. Anyone say Russia? why the hell would U.S. companies invest in Russia when they are giving the bomb to Iran. This is the question we should be asking after we destroy their Nuke plants under billions of tons of Rubble. Bush sucks and everything he stands for does but if he destroyed Irans Nuke facilities tomorrow i wouldnt shed a tear and Europe though blind would breathe easier only they are to stupid to realize.

Agreed.
Bush let the Russians build the reactors right under his nose.
All shrub had to do was say we know you need money, how about we spend billions rebuilding your oil fields and we will be your primary customer. Russia has lots of untapped oil and those fields could be a steady source of income for them.
post #76 of 277
Each war is just the staging ground for the next.

PNAC gets what PNAC wants.


http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm


Quote:
June 3, 1997

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.



Elliott Abrams
Gary Bauer
William Bennett
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
Eliot Cohen
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
Lewis Libby
Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle
Peter Rodman
Stephen Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz



This ominous, pre-9/11 document will be the defining proof of this administration's outright, calculated imperialism.

It is a supremacy at-all-costs, offensive-not-defensive doctrine.

It gives the go ahead to preemptively take on anyone that stands in the way of our interests.

Gone is the veneer of noble leadership we allegedly had in WWII. This is a pure powergrab for the world's last resources.

They said it, I didn't.

This is a set-em-up knock 'em down approach. Democracy/freedom has nothing to do with anything. Either you have oil and let us take it, or you're against us.

Make 9/11's if you need to. Generate or fund any enemy needed to cause the public to be outraged or fearful.

Add Operation Northwoods and the Downing Street memo and only the most gullible people can support this administration and neocons in general.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
post #77 of 277
The drumbeat intensifies:

Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Sunday called Iran's presidential election invalid and the winner "no friend of democracy."

Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Rumsfeld said the Iranian government had paved the way for ultra-conservative Tehran mayor Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to win the post.

The Iranian president does not run the country; supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khameinei has the final word in matters of state in the Islamic theocracy. But the United States and others hoped the victor in the election would be someone they deemed more committed to democratic reforms.

"I think leaving the American people with the impression that it was an election that was valid -- there were over 1,000 candidates that were disqualified, that weren't even allowed to run," Rumsfeld said.

"So the fact that they had a mock election and elected a hard-liner ought not come to any surprise to anybody because all the other people were told they couldn't run."

. . .

Rumsfeld said he does not "known much about" Ahmadinejad. "But he is no friend of democracy. He's no friend of freedom. He is a person who is very much supportive of the current ayatollahs, who are telling the people of that country how to live their lives."

The fact that such overt political commentary comes from the Defense Secretary, instead of the State Department, is pretty telling.
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post #78 of 277
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
The drumbeat intensifies:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Sunday called Iran's presidential election invalid and the winner "no friend of democracy."

Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Rumsfeld said the Iranian government had paved the way for ultra-conservative Tehran mayor Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to win the post.

The Iranian president does not run the country; supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khameinei has the final word in matters of state in the Islamic theocracy. But the United States and others hoped the victor in the election would be someone they deemed more committed to democratic reforms.

"I think leaving the American people with the impression that it was an election that was valid -- there were over 1,000 candidates that were disqualified, that weren't even allowed to run," Rumsfeld said.

"So the fact that they had a mock election and elected a hard-liner ought not come to any surprise to anybody because all the other people were told they couldn't run."


That's odd. I was under the impression that Freedom Is On The March.

Weren't elections in Iran oft cited on these very boards as one of the wondrous collateral effects of invading Iraq? (I mean besides somehow inducing Arafat to die and obliging the Palestinians to elect a new leader).
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #79 of 277
Funny how with Khamenei, Iran had a very pro-US sectarian leader, and after the invasion of Iraq, the Iranians decided that that wasn't what they wanted at all. Who on earth could imagine such an effect!?

Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln who said, "I destroy my enemies by making them my friends"? Wise words left unheeded.
post #80 of 277

I guess that I agree with the new american century folks, the quote seems coherent and right to me. Changing some of the text to bold does not make it more sinister, sorry.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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