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post #81 of 277
6/26/05 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I guess that I agree with the new american century folks, the quote seems coherent and right to me. Changing some of the text to bold does not make it more sinister, sorry.

Try using a James Earl Jones voice...

I'll give them credit for balls and putting it right out there for all to see, anyway.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

post #82 of 277
6/26/05 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Funny how with Khamenei, Iran had a very pro-US sectarian leader, and after the invasion of Iraq, the Iranians decided that that wasn't what they wanted at all. Who on earth could imagine such an effect!?

Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln who said, "I destroy my enemies by making them my friends"? Wise words left unheeded.

Khamenei was powerless. The Imams hold all the power. That is the main problem.
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post #83 of 277
6/26/05 at 8:21pm
The point is, anyway, that as early as 1997 this brazen semi-cabal existed, it's agenda clearly defined, all prior to 9/11.

None of what we are doing is in some kind of sudden, noble defense, as we were lied to, it is all strategic offense.

They/the Bush administration may have had nothing to do with 9/11's planning and execution but they sure as hell are likely to have just let it happen, knowing full well the "benefits" they could exploit soon after.

Only by having a "new pearl harbor" could they get the funding and powers they wanted.

I can't wait to fast forward to 5 or 10 years from now when all this is exposed for what it is. For now I'll gladly be called paranoid.

Next stop: Iran. But this will be with MOAB bombs and killer robots.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

post #84 of 277
6/27/05 at 12:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
The point is, anyway, that as early as 1997 this brazen semi-cabal existed, it's agenda clearly defined, all prior to 9/11.

None of what we are doing is in some kind of sudden, noble defense, as we were lied to, it is all strategic offense.

They/the Bush administration may have had nothing to do with 9/11's planning and execution but they sure as hell are likely to have just let it happen, knowing full well the "benefits" they could exploit soon after.

Only by having a "new pearl harbor" could they get the funding and powers they wanted.

I can't wait to fast forward to 5 or 10 years from now when all this is exposed for what it is. For now I'll gladly be called paranoid.

Next stop: Iran. But this will be with MOAB bombs and killer robots.

Won't work - the US will take a hammering in Iran - and Iraq will intensify. Also difficult to see how the Saudis will keep a lid on things too.

But the main problem will hit the US at home. Up till now there have been no suicide bombs, bio attacks via water/facilities etc. Actually it is strange that there hasn't been given the 'awesome threat' coupled with the ineptitude of the administration and the (presumed) sleeper cells that should be in place but that's another story.

I would say the US is vulnerable from those fronts primarily if it goes into Iran - suicide bombings on home soil and attacks on food/water supplies.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #85 of 277
6/27/05 at 3:19am
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
You sound like a Euro New, there is no logical step for folks to acquire these things. Another lets do nothing We want to decrease Nukes not increase them. Only reason Isreali's have them is because they are surrounded and out numbered by folks who have tried to exterminate them for years.. New talks like Iran is a respected member of the world community and trade groups. Under his spin the only one who shouldnt have them are......... lets see.............. Do nothing is doing nothing. pull the spin out please.

If you want to decrease nukes, why is it you keep making them, hum?

btw, no one has tried to "exterminate" (what a stupid word to use) Israel for at least the last 30 years...
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post #86 of 277
6/27/05 at 3:22am
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Well New also claims that they're getting da bomb.

I didn't claim that. I have no intelligence agency working for me. I said it was the next logical step. If I was running Iraq, um Iran I mean, I would get the bomb as fast as I could...
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post #87 of 277
6/27/05 at 3:24am
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Iran is far different from China.
Iran is a country that chants death to America in its Parliament. The Govmnt is our enemy. they fund terrorists, who is to say they wouldnt give the technology or actual weapons to them?
Iran has no use for nuclear energy so its an obvious lie. If they do get Nukes it wont protect them because we would have to smash them.
They would be far better off if they ditched the technology and tried to join the world again and stop acting like they are still in the 5th Century.

ok... I'll play along with your logic... So why is it ok for Pakistan to have the bomb?
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post #88 of 277
6/27/05 at 5:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
ok... I'll play along with your logic... So why is it ok for Pakistan to have the bomb?

And why are Saudi exempt from nuclear inspections ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #89 of 277
6/27/05 at 10:23am
And why is Israel exempt from IAEA inspections?
meh
meh
post #90 of 277
6/27/05 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
ok... I'll play along with your logic... So why is it ok for Pakistan to have the bomb?

It isn't. They developed it without our wonderful intelligence agencies detecting it.
Then our wonderful intelligence agencies let the tech info spread to iran, Iraq, etc
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post #91 of 277
6/27/05 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
And why is Israel exempt from IAEA inspections?

Why, are you worried about Israel dropping the bomb on you?
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post #92 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Khamenei was powerless. The Imams hold all the power. That is the main problem.

While his power may have been small, it was not negligible, not to mention the message it sent to the rest of the world. Now the opposite message is being sent. Are you saying the difference between having a pro-west leader and a hardliner is nothing? Then what's the point of this thread?

The resulting difference is not zero.
post #93 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
While his power may have been small, it was not negligible, not to mention the message it sent to the rest of the world. Now the opposite message is being sent. Are you saying the difference between having a pro-west leader and a hardliner is nothing? Then what's the point of this thread?

The resulting difference is not zero.

The only difference is that Iran will be saying what they mean, not trying to give us a snowjob.
That means we will get to action sooner rather than later, which is preferred. Whether that is military or sanctions remains to be seen.
I still prefer covert action to destroy the reactors and I hope Israel is up to something.
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post #94 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:29pm
So the Iranian public elected a pro-Western leader because they wanted to fool us? Riiight.
post #95 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
And why is Israel exempt from IAEA inspections?

My responses are limited, you must ask the right question.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
post #96 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New

btw, no one has tried to "exterminate" (what a stupid word to use) Israel for at least the last 30 years...


And the reason for that is:

A) Peaceful negotiations between Israel and the Arab nations

B) Israel has defeated the aggressors conventionally in every previous war

C) Israel would 'send them up the Bomb' if faced with total defeat/extinction




For those who may be interested, a short history lesson from FAS.org:
(bolding by myself)

Quote:
This paper is a history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program drawn from a review of unclassified sources. Israel began its search for nuclear weapons at the inception of the state in 1948. As payment for Israeli participation in the Suez Crisis of 1956, France provided nuclear expertise and constructed a reactor complex for Israel at Dimona capable of large-scale plutonium production and reprocessing. The United States discovered the facility by 1958 and it was a subject of continual discussions between American presidents and Israeli prime ministers. Israel used delay and deception to at first keep the United States at bay, and later used the nuclear option as a bargaining chip for a consistent American conventional arms supply. After French disengagement in the early 1960s, Israel progressed on its own, including through several covert operations, to project completion. Before the 1967 Six-Day War, they felt their nuclear facility threatened and reportedly assembled several nuclear devices. By the 1973 Yom Kippur War Israel had a number of sophisticated nuclear bombs, deployed them, and considered using them. The Arabs may have limited their war aims because of their knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons. Israel has most probably conducted several nuclear bomb tests. They have continued to modernize and vertically proliferate and are now one of the world's larger nuclear powers. Using bomb in the basement nuclear opacity, Israel has been able to use its arsenal as a deterrent to the Arab world while not technically violating American nonproliferation requirements.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
post #97 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
So the Iranian public elected a pro-Western leader because they wanted to fool us? Riiight.

No, they elected him because the majority of the public truly want Democracy and thought a reformer could change things.
They saw that he couldnt and that he held little real power so they became apolitical and stayed home while those supporting a more radical regime came out in force this time.

Iran needs another revolution, but in the meantime the Nukes have to go.
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post #98 of 277
6/27/05 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by iPoster
And the reason for that is:

A) Peaceful negotiations between Israel and the Arab nations

B) Israel has defeated the aggressors conventionally in every previous war

C) Israel would 'send them up the Bomb' if faced with total defeat/extinction




For those who may be interested, a short history lesson from FAS.org:
(bolding by myself)

The reason is that Israel's military is much stronger than their neighbors.
Israel's nukes would do little against Syria for example because Israel would suffer the fallout. Too close.
Iran is another matter, however Israel's Nukes are for defensive purposes only, so if the Arabs and Iran would keep to themselves they have nothing to fear. If they stop support for terrorists they have nothing to fear from us.

What some here seem to be saying is that Iran needs Nukes for protection.
No, they WANT Nukes so they can continue spreading terrorism and have a means to dissuade the civilized world from stopping them.

I certainly hope you all can see the difference between an Israel with the bomb and an Iran with the bomb.
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post #99 of 277
6/27/05 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
America, FUCK yeah!


LOL!! that's goofy movie
post #100 of 277
6/27/05 at 9:18pm
Bush is just doing what the terroist want to do, except of course bush wants democracy throughout the world and the terrorist want Islam. bush is a terrorist.
post #101 of 277
6/28/05 at 1:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
It isn't. They developed it without our wonderful intelligence agencies detecting it.
Then our wonderful intelligence agencies let the tech info spread to iran, Iraq, etc

so why are you not more worried about them? Pakistan is far more unstable than Iran.
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #102 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Pakistan is far more unstable than Iran.

For now....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #103 of 277
6/28/05 at 5:03am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
For now....

true.
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #104 of 277
6/28/05 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally posted by New
so why are you not more worried about them? Pakistan is far more unstable than Iran.

And if the focus was on Pakistan the you would say Syria is more of a threat, and if the focus was Syria then you would say why not China, if China then why not Somalia, if Somalia, why not somewhere else.

Typical.

Wasn't this the argument against getting involved in Iraq?
post #105 of 277
6/28/05 at 10:07am
Thread Starter 
To anyone feeling themselves about to be taken in by the ongoing crap designed to justify the slaughter of the Iranians that is relentlessly spewing out from the Bush cabal and their shills should just watch this and then ask themselves what is different now.

It's an hour long or so but worth every minute.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #106 of 277
6/28/05 at 11:08am
We have a lot of folks who thrive on spinning, makes you wonder how they walk straight., Fact is Iran is after the bomb. Fact is they dont need this type of russian reactor. Blow the thing up and be done with it. Next problem? here comes the spinmasters spewing stuff like everyone should have these things and other foolish talk.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #107 of 277
6/28/05 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
And if the focus was on Pakistan the you would say Syria is more of a threat, and if the focus was Syria then you would say why not China, if China then why not Somalia, if Somalia, why not somewhere else.

Typical.

Wasn't this the argument against getting involved in Iraq?

hello planet earth! Don't you find this extreem selectiveness of treaths even a tiny bit strange?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #108 of 277
6/28/05 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Reminds me of America, we have the extreme right Bible thumpers destroying every ounce of freedom we have left.Just Look at how they are spinning science here in the U.S.A. Look where George has taken us in 5 years. He has undone 50 years of progress. Iran will be just the same, another Zealot state of fanatics pushing their Book. America/Iran both ran by extremist who can only think in those narrow religious terms. Now lets see what did the Bible/Koran say on the issue of popcorn after dark? These are the folks that will destroy this world. For their selfish system of belief. We cant do much about Iran but we can clean house here in the U.S.A. Vote out all incumbants. its the only way.

This is idiotic. The leftists on the supreme court took more Freedom away from us in the last two weeks than if George Bush ruled for another 50 years.

First, they turned us into a communist communal property state with their absurd and horrific eminent domain ruling. You and I no longer have property rights. We only own our homes until the government decides it can use the land better than we can. Then, they continued the push to remove religion from every public place, and disguised it witha follow up ruling that was intended to create the perception of balance.
To save time, assume I know everything.
To save time, assume I know everything.
post #109 of 277
6/28/05 at 2:54pm
Republicans & Democrats are to blame for our problems but at the moment the Republicans run the whole show. Lets not forget that we had had how many republican presidents vs democrats in the past 30 years or so and guess who appoints those judges? Republicans are being ran by their extremist just as the democrats are for sure
. .....But back on Iran the Free world cant just sit around. its way to dangerous. Iran doesnt understand these right wing republicans who run our govt at the moment. Talking tough after 5 years of George they should know better. Didnt they watch any of our airstrikes? The Stick..... IF they wanted my 2 cents i would scrap the whole thing and let Russia build them a different plant that has no weapons conversion possibilities. Use that for opening trade with other countries.The Carrot....
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #110 of 277
6/28/05 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
so why are you not more worried about them? Pakistan is far more unstable than Iran.

In some ways, yes, some ways, no.
Pakistan is ruled by the military, which is allied with the US. I use the term ally loosely, because I believe they know where Bin Laden is, they are just afraid to capture him and rile the masses.
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post #111 of 277
6/28/05 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
In some ways, yes, some ways, no.
Pakistan is ruled by the military, which is allied with the US. I use the term ally loosely, because I believe they know where Bin Laden is, they are just afraid to capture him and rile the masses.

The millitary is allied with the US? rich...
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #112 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:12pm
iPoster:

Quote:
B) Israel has defeated the aggressors conventionally in every previous war

I'm sorry, but you're either uninformed, or just plain lying. No one has attacked Israel in the wars it won - Israel attacked first, committing an aggression.

DO NOT FORGET TO MENTION THAT FACT.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #113 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
The millitary is allied with the US? rich...


...


Pakistan is not ruled by the military. There was a military coup d'etat, but seeing as large parts of the country were not controlled by the military since at least 1980s, there was not much to rule militarily except perhaps Islamabad.

Pakistan is divided into different zones, with tribes who have their own militaries or quasi-militaries ruling their own set territory. That's why some months ago Pakistani military was in need to fight back when they got attacked by those tribesmen who thought that the military was not respecting the agreement.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #114 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
iPoster:



I'm sorry, but you're either uninformed, or just plain lying. No one has attacked Israel in the wars it won - Israel attacked first, committing an aggression.

DO NOT FORGET TO MENTION THAT FACT.

False.
The Arabs attacked Israel the second the UN declared Israel to be a nation.
The other 2 wars, Israel once acted at the behest of France and Britain.
The other, Israel attacked premptively when Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops at their border.

DO NOT FORGET TO MENTION THAT FACT
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post #115 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
...


Pakistan is not ruled by the military. There was a military coup d'etat, but seeing as large parts of the country were not controlled by the military since at least 1980s, there was not much to rule militarily except perhaps Islamabad.

Pakistan is divided into different zones, with tribes who have their own militaries or quasi-militaries ruling their own set territory. That's why some months ago Pakistani military was in need to fight back when they got attacked by those tribesmen who thought that the military was not respecting the agreement.

The Govmnt that we deal with is run by the military. Whether they control the entire country is another question. They certainly dont.
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post #116 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
False.
The Arabs attacked Israel the second the UN declared Israel to be a nation.

Not according to what Wikipedia says. Pay close attention to who started attacking the British and villages:

Quote:
First phase: November 29, 1947 - April 1, 1948

Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun* and Lehi** increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces. The largest group was a volunteer army, the Arab Liberation Army, created by the Arab League and led by Arab nationalist Fawzi Al-Qawuqji. In January and February, Arab irregular forces attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine but achieved no substantial successes.

The Arabs concentrated their efforts on cutting off roads to Jewish towns and Jewish neighborhoods in areas with mixed populations. They also massacred several Jewish convoys. At the end of March, the Arabs completely cut off the vital road going from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem where one sixth of Palestine's Jews lived.

The Haganah armed itself with arms bought from Czechoslovakia. The Yishuv began working on a plan called Plan Dalet (or Plan D).


Quote:
The other 2 wars, Israel once acted at the behest of France and Britain.

So they attacked because Britain and France told them to, right? How does that make the Arabs aggressors?


Quote:
The other, Israel attacked premptively when Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops at their border.


Once again, how does Israel's attack make Arabs aggressors?

Quote:
DO NOT FORGET TO MENTION THAT FACT [/B]

This pile of rubbish, you mean.


* A nationalist-terrorist group consisting of Zionisist-minded people active in Palestine from 1931 to 1948. A.K.A "National Military Organization".

** Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") a radical self-described terrorist group that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. (wikipedia).
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #117 of 277
6/28/05 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
The Govmnt that we deal with is run by the military.

Perhaps.

Quote:
Whether they control the entire country is another question. They certainly dont.

So, how does the military rule the country in this case? By ruling the government building in Islamabad?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #118 of 277
6/28/05 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Not according to what Wikipedia says. Pay close attention to who started attacking the British and villages:

So they attacked because Britain and France told them to, right? How does that make the Arabs aggressors?

Once again, how does Israel's attack make Arabs aggressors?

This pile of rubbish, you mean.


* A nationalist-terrorist group consisting of Zionisist-minded people active in Palestine from 1931 to 1948. A.K.A "National Military Organization".

** Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") a radical self-described terrorist group that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. (wikipedia).

The Arabs were against the formation of Israel from the beginning and they attacked the moment the State was formed. I dont know what that 'source' of information is, but it is common knowledge that the Arabs were ready to pounce immediately. Unfortunately for you, Israel succeeded.
The War over the Suez was started by France and Britain and israel joined them. Even the US opposed it at the time.
The Yom Kippur War, Arabs started a surprise attack against Israel. Again, unfortunately for you Israel won anyway.
The last war to mention, Israel attacked first after seeing Arab armies massing on the border ready to attack. That is not a war of aggression by any sense of the definition.

So, Israel had one War which was an act of aggression, the rest were not.
And THOSE are the facts, Jack
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post #119 of 277
6/28/05 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Perhaps.



So, how does the military rule the country in this case? By ruling the government building in Islamabad?

We have to talk to someone, dont we? And the military controls the Nukes.
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post #120 of 277
6/28/05 at 5:58pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Gene - you seem to have a real chip on your shoulder with regard to Israel.

I think the Egypt deserved to get its butt kicked when they aggressively massed troops on the Israeli border, and (at the same time) the leader of Egypt said that he was going to kill all the jews in Israel.

You don't share that view, I understand from previous threads, but to me you seem irrational in this particular area.
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