Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (Update) - Page 3

But they are usually no match for teenage hackers. The PSP has just been cracked, so soon I will have a choice in cool web browsers and stuff that I can load on mine.

Uniform hardware is good if they can't keep it locked down.

I think that I also found a place that sells HDMI->DVI converters, which I will need to hook my PS3 to my VGA-only CRT projector. Heh heh heh...

How does that help you? DVI is not VGA.

DVI to VGA converters are pretty common place. Not sure how two conversions would go but the connectors are there.

The HDMI to DVI step is de-encription only, should be no loss of signal quality. After that the DVI->VGA conversion is pretty standard, and you can get pretty good results if you are willing to pay enough money.

Well we actually don't know what HD-DVD will be priced at come mid 2006 when the PS3 is shipping. I'm guessing that we see first generation HD-DVD in Dec followed by cheaper units and recorders mid 2006.

Sony's agressiveness though bodes well for consumers. If there must be a format war then let that war lower pricing so that those of us who have to purchase both formats can affordably do so.

fluff.

Most consumer don't even know what stuff like HDMI or DVI/HDCP is yet they're supposed to know the differences between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray?

The point has been made earlier in this discussion, a few times actually, but I think it is somewhat lost on a lot of people. Everyone is fighting over a technology that most people couldn't even use it if came out tomorrow!

This is FAR from being VHS vs. Betamax. Whichever format comes out on top will be backwards compatible with current DVDs...a lot of people are already freaking out as if they will have to re-purcahse all of their movies...most people don't care enough about quality, so the format war will not be won on quality.

A good example of this: Everyone seems to have forgotten the OTHER format war going on...SACD vs DVD-A....and I have VERY strong feelings towards SACD, the first digital format to abandon LPCM and adopt 1-bit delta-sigma modulation...but no one cares about the quality, and that's not to say DVD-A sucks, it doesn't, however no one cares. How everyone can get soooo caught up in this whole HD revolution, everything is going HD these days...meanwhile the mp3 is all the rage!!!!!! Even the greatest formats and derivatives of Mp3 still suck they are only NEAR CD quality, and that still sucks...once you hear high res audio there is NO going back!

But I digress...the PS3 not only will come stock with Blu-ray but also SACD, and it will play DVD, CD, PS1 and PS2...I have never been a big playstation guy, but this looks to be the superior machine, even as a universal player!

...If only everyone cared as much about HD audio as they do HD screens, HD movies, HD TV, and everything else that has adopted the HD moniker.

Long live 1-bit DSD!

(please don't give me the mp3 is portable thus it is awesome argument, I agree mp3s have a place...and an ipod is a great place for them, but mp3 has taken over and people have since forgotten what dynamic range is, or what anything beneath 80hz sounds like, and everything above 16k....)

It's sad because it's true.

HDMI is going to be used by both kinds of players - how does this affect your buyind decision?

The public that is being polled is the same public that will later vote with their wallet. It does not matter if they are wrong or right, their ideas will move the market. Also, they will buy the $400 PS3 over the $1200 HD-DVD 10 times out of 10.

I owned a Sony SACD-777ES for a while when it first came out, and I really liked it. I ended up selling it for a $300 profit when they discontinued it and the price shot up, but some day I will buy a SACD-1 again.



Man, what a sweet machine!

I dunno if this has been said, but the latest word from microsoft is that the xbox 360 won't ship with an HDMI connecter, rather component video for High Def content. They will consider an 'advanced av cable' with HDMI at a later stage, or when it seems feasible.

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/...d-Holmdahl/p1/

Also on the Xbox 360 front, Microsoft is now saying that it will have a HD-DVD drive... but not at launch.

Wow. Dumb.

Not really. It gives consumers a choice. Microsoft simply needs to let potential costumers know that

1. You MUST have a HDCP HDTV to take advantage. Analog outputs will be downrezzed to 480p.

2. Offer a tradeup program for those that want to move from a SD Xbox to HD in the future.

Simple as that. This war is turning out to be GRrrrrrrrrrrrreat!

Yea, it is. People will hold off for the PS3 for obvious reasons. M$ will lose sales. Then, when they release a HD-DVD version, Blu Ray will be bringing in users people will not care for HD-DVD as much, M$ will raise the price of the X-Box or lose more money per unit, all in a filing effort

Blu Ray and PS3 will win this one.

Choice is never a bad thing.


If I have a 32in analog TV then the HDTV capabilities of the PS3 and a HD-DVD Xbox mean nothing.

If I have a HDTV that uses component ins only then I'm in the same boat.

Give people the option of paying $299 for a non HDTV Xbox and once they upgrade to a capable HDTV set MS could offer a $50 rebate for trade-in.

The effect of the PS3 on BD sales is overblown. HDCP HDTV may not even be half the HDTV set market by the time the PS3 ships.

Choice is often a bad thing. For example the SACD/DVD-A/DVD-Muse format war basically killed 90% of HD-Audio sales. For another example, I once wanted a Ford F-150, but decided against it because I could not figure out the 10 page option list.

If the Xbox 360 does not have HD-DVD drives in every unit, then all software will be produced on DVDs and the HD-DVD drive will go unused. Why would software manufacturers want to produce the same software on two formats of disk? Not only would there be extra manufacturing cost, hassle for consumers, and bad blood all round, but also there would be extra development cost to "dumb down" the HD-DVD version to fit on a DVD.

This is interesting:

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/200...vd_vs_blu-ray/

Seems like the HD lot are worried. Rubbishing the competition is a good sign of panic.

The problem with SACD and DVD-Audio is that nobody was asking for them. Sony and the DVD Forum just assumed that consumers would want and "pay" for a premium music format despite the fact that consumers were already complaining about the price of CDs. Smart. That's a textbook case of going forward without a focused plan and honesty about the markeplace. People don't want $20 music discs nor did they want players that required 6 analog connections.

I don't think the PS3 and Xbox360 are going to be good because of games being bigger but rather they have the horsepower to utilize better physics and textures.

I'll buy both if they support HD-DVD and BD.


Fox's comments about protection were misleading. HD-DVD supports HDCP at the device and AACS just like Blu-Ray. The fear with Blu-Ray is revokable keys by player that could theoretically block legit consumers from their movies.

Do they not realise everybody will be viewing discs on hacked players anyway?

I think DVD-A/SACD failed because it was never REALLY marketed, or properly marketed I should say. One day it just appeared on the shelves at Best Buy, people bought them and then took them back to the store upset that the discs wouldn't play in any player they owned.

The music industry has always been slow to catch up with movie trends. Surround has managed to catch on pretty well for DVDs and the movie theater experience, it boggles my mind how everyone can get so excited about a DTS movie mix on a movie, but couldn't care less if their music was a horribly compressed mp3.

I have heard the argument that movies are supposed to be in surround to be realistic, music is not meant for surround blah blah blah...well I have news for you, that was the SAME exact argument when stereo came out, and now look at music! I think people have a misunderstanding of surround audio, a lot of people say it takes too much focus, and people don't really care if a flanged effect goes whizzing around the room in surround...but people are thinking in terms of fireworks and glitz and glam. Surround opens the possibility of a dedicated channel for bass, this un-muddifies your speakers so that every other instrument can be heard clearly, it's not always about crazy panning tricks like with Queen's a night at the opera disc (though it IS amazing) try listening to the new Elton John mixes in 5.1, sampled from analog tape to 2.8MHz not to mention playable in your car CD player (the hybrid discs).

So to end this thread hijack/rant I think there would be a great market for high res audio if given the proper chance, it was just wrong place, wrong time...people wanted free music, regardless of quality, as soon as people started paying for mp3's they started to realize they were paying for crap. So now they realize they cannot successfully market a special player or special format for high res audio, so take the back door in...make the next gen gaming consoles have built in players, before you know it the excuse that "no one has a compatible player" will be long gone...they love this new backdoor approach, wow them with something in one hand and then use their ulterior motives to get something else accomplished. i.e. impress them with this new amazing format of HD and beyond, and amazing games...OH yeah, and by the way good luck trying to pirate anything ever again! HAHAHAHA I love it.

-Roy

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I can't find the info. My TV has a DVI input. I think I have found HDCP->DVI converters, will these be ok for use with Blue-Ray/HD-DVD? I would hate it if I couldn't even take advantage...

Which begs the question... will the MPAA make the same price vs. quality mistakes that the RIAA made?

When MP3s first hit, everyone was enamored to simply be getting free music. Oh... and music on their computer. Now that hard drives are larger and cheaper, the equation has changed somewhat. People, at least some of us, are now looking for better quality. 128kbps or even 160kbps just isn't good enough.

If the recording industry had recognized this, they could have switched to a improved but backward compatible standard that was immediately and obviously better to your average listener. The appeal of free and convenient downloads wouldn't be so strong if the commercially available version was of much better quality.

Movies are reaching a similar inflection point. Divx rips are now fairly trivial in size to download yet are approaching dvd quality in most viewers eyes. Granted, divx rips don't typically contain menus, extras, commentary, etc. However, the principle is still there. Can hollywood offer a product superior enough to the knock-off that average consumers will spring for the real thing?

If movies aren't distributed in a higher than DVD resolution real soon, pirated rips are just too enticing. Divx files will be swapped at a rate similar to MP3s. It's a temporary solution, increasing resolution and quality. However, maybe that's all the industry needs to weather this storm and figure out a new/profitable distribution model.

Do you really think Microsoft will offer a trade up program and now developers have the problem of a split install base. They can release games on a HD format but screw a hell of a lot of people who bought early or be restricted by DVD sizes. Great move Microsoft.

Second a war is not great, especially for the consumer.

Divx is approaching dvd quality in the eyes of most consumers, but in actuality it is no where near dvd quality, I am still amazed at how people can talk about high res quality till the cows come home, and then they support divx rips. An interesting side note/comparrison though...I would compare a divx rip to lets say a PSP movie....hmm interesting, what's the rub? Have you SEEN the price of PSP movies....talk about a rip-off! dont get me wrong I understand the sacrifice of quality for portability, but at what cost?!?!

I think you are confusing HDMI, a connector, with HDCP, an encryption method. If your TV has a DVI connector that is HDCP compliant, you should be able to connect a future BR/HD-DVD with an HDMI-to-DVI cable/adapter without major issues. If your TV's DVI input isn't HDCP compliant, then you will get a blank screen.

Unlike a straight HDMI setup, the sound will have to be transmitted by another cable (analog, spdif, etc) with a DVI setup.

There are some other nuances but that is the gist of it.

Most people not only seemingly can't tell the difference between dvds and divx, but when pressed... could apparently care less. Keep in mind that divx comes in many flavors and quality and I'm only refering to the potential looming in the better of these.

I know I know, we're the rational ones. I mean everyone wants a 7.2 surround system and a front projection DLP for their 1080i right?

Seriously, while most of us on these boards have impeccable standards for AV fidelity... the general public does not. In their eyes, a good divx rip and a DVD are indistinguishable. Home broadband and newer divx rips have creeped up on hollywood over the past few years. Either hollywood changes... or people can get indistinguishable quality for free off the internet.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD are good ways for hollywood to fight this phenomenon. I actually care more that a winner emerges quickly than that we get the superior technology.

(Note: This is not a divx plug. I'd rather us use h.264.)

You're close. Check your manual..if your DVI inputs support HDCP your A'OK. If they don't you will be ^&*(*) both formats.

Telomar

I'm curious to see just what Microsoft will do. I think it's inevitable that they must support HD-DVD in something due to the Toshiba partnership.

This format war will indeed suck but there will be benefits. Prices should drop faster as each format competes for dollars. Once universal drives hit some of the blow to consumers will be gone.

Divx rips look good on a small TV but eetimes is reporting that LCD panels above 40" will be $1000 soon allowing for $2000 LCD televisions. In a few years they'll be down to $1500. As the size increases so does the need for sharper video.

Who's to say there would be any segmentation? You don't need HD media to play HD games. See any modern day PC game. A DVD9 should be adequate for a while to come. Should it ever be a problem in the future, just add a second disc. Not a huge deal.

Also, why is this news? It was public knowledge that 360 was going to be a DVD9 unit since before E3. It's like it only became news when MS said that they may update the system later.

Hey folks. While you're enjoying those capacious Blu-Ray discs I'd like you to know that you're getting a healthy dose of Super DRM.

The most important feature of AACS is that information stored on high definition discs permits specific players or kinds of players to play the HD discs. This offers the studios the opportunity to revoke specific kinds of players' permission to play titles released from point of discovery of a security compromise and onward. In other words, you buy a thousand dollar player, bring it home, fall in love with the wonderful images, and smile uncontrollably every time you fire up your home theater system. Then some very clever hacker figures out a way to disable or defeat the copy protection for your make and model of player - perhaps by replacing the player's ROM chip that holds the firmware and offers conversion kits over the Internet. The studios get wind of it and they put that player on the revoked list. For every title released from that point forward, your player will not work. Congratulations, you now own a thousand dollar boat anchor.

AACS is capable of other nasty tricks. It can revoke a tile if the keys for that disc become known. It can revoke an individual player. Content will be watermarked, and illegal copies will be traceable to a player. There is network connectivity built into the AACS standard, implying CRM or content rights management operations. Yes, an Internet connection may be required after all.

So not only do we have the threat hanging over our heads of having to throw away billions of dollars of analog input only HD-ready displays if the studios don't permit the inclusion of full resolution component video outputs on the new players, now we're facing the threat of having to throw away an expensive player if that model is compromised by diligent hackers. I wonder how many players will eventually become inert bookends? I wonder how many millions more dollars the studios expect us to sacrifice on their alters of protective excesses.

Like it so far? You ain't seen nuthin' yet. SPDC provides the means to revoke a player's ability to play all titles, even those that were released before the player was compromised. SPDC has the ability to create traceable content, should either a single player or a group of players be compromised. So if pirates manage to break the encryption on his copy of your beloved high definition disc of Revenge of the Sith , you could suddenly find yourself with a disc that no longer plays. The players accept updated revocation information from each new disc played and store that information in memory that isn't affected by powering the player down (non-volatile memory). This system also has the ability to reduce output quality (image constraint) and can literally modify your player's firmware. Very scary.



Typical Sony. AACS is stout enough but for Sony that isn't enough. Oh yeah did you know they're adding copy protection so that you can't rip to iTunes as well? Yes enjoy that extra space and pray that no one ever hacks your model.

AACS and SPDC info

I have no specific preference beyond the ability to deliver feature length films at 1080i/p. I would like greater capacity to prevail in order to simplify my archival practice, however, if that capacity comes at the expense of a company wilfully inconveniencing me, then they deserve nothing less than abject failure in the market. Good bye and good riddance.

I'll wait untill the titles, players, and prices are a little more fully developed before making a decision...

The world thought they were invincible...for years I have always heard "they will never stop piracy" and I have to agree first of all it will never be stopped, and secondly the methods they used in the past were not very effective, the whole scare-tactic thing didn't quite pan out.

Now, saying they will never end piracy is like saying we will never end crime, but that doesn't mean roll over and give up, who needs police officers seeing as there will always be crime! Call it an exaggeration, but I admire who the industry went about this one. While this does not KILL piracy all together it certainly cuts it down, and what did you expect? After admitting defeat on CDs, tapes, DVDs, and every other format instead of fighting a futile war they pretended to ignore it and usher in a new format, and sure they won't advertise how copy protected it is, and YES it sucks you can't copy songs, or make backups, but what did you expect?!? Everyone out there ABUSED their rights as a consumer and now they are taking them away, I don't find it that hard to believe really.

In the coming years this will help SLOW piracy a ton. I know that any moron who knows how to hook a line out jack into a line in jack knows how to make a copy of just about anything, but the average consumer won't be able to pirate like they used to.

Software is jumping on the bandwagon too with unique challenge/reposnse activations, USB key dongles, and other new ways to prevent piracy. Sure people still make key generators, sure people find hacks around them, but each day the software becomes harder to crack.

I think that within 20 years tops we will have NO MORE mediums on which to store anything, everything will be "online" a central server, you buy a movie, you acquire the rights to it to watch on any tv or portable device you own, it uses licensing much like the security certificates used with windows media player. Same for music, it will all be like the ITMS, and software too, when you buy software you will never get a disc, you will just acquire the right to use it on your computer, at best you will have a dongle that allows you to use it wherever you go...but even that is a stretch. Call it impossible, say it sucks, but retaliation is a bitch and the industry is going to stick it to all of us hardcore, and it only took a few billion illegal downloads to ruin it for us law biding citizens ;-p

-Roy

Marzetta7

I'm ok with AACS but look at the SPDC that Sony's adding on top. Studios will love it..but then again are they looking out for your interests at all? Unlikely. SDPC seems to be overkill since both formats will already have AACS.

hmurchison, I can't believe you guys are listening to a paranoid anti copy protection freak.

You sound as silly as this guy, and these other brainwashed suicide bombers. Just because a your neighbor owns a steak knife; doesn't mean he is going to walk into your house, and stab you to death with it. Do you own a steak knife? What are "your" intentions? What you have, and how you use it are two different things. Don't become brainwashed. Think for yourself. No movie company is going to ban a brand because it was hacked. If that were the case half the stuff you have would have been banned. Have you noticed the iTunes music store is still up, and running. No body is pulling away from that. iPods are still the #1 mp3 player. People have been able to pull the copy protection out from their iTunes music, and I don't see Apple on the black list from any label. Hell, I tried it. It can be done, but I don't see the need to do it because copy protected music has been working fine for me. Nobody cares. I think you should quit smoking the mota because your getting a little paranoid.
Don't be a follower; take a closer look into what you quoted. It's not a threat from a movie mogul. It's a paranoid exaggeration of "what coulds" in the most extreme circumstances. Like the day when you walk into your neighbors house and stab him to death with a steak knife.

That article on the copy protection seemed to have a real "1984" mentality to it...in the future if you press a wrong button your home theater will explode and the FBI will hunt you down.

I sincerely doubt if you bought a $1000 player that it would be added to a "do not play" list by the studios, it just would not stand! Now a bootleg player or a custom modded player might be...how do you make it so your player works for years to come? Simple....FOLLOW THE RULES.

To me there is nothing too restrictive about this new protection, and everyone is eager to jump down the throats of the studios seeing as they don't have our best interests in mind...of course they don't! They have THEIR best interests in mind, you think they make movies for fun?!? No, they make them to make money and if we get are entertained then it is a win win situation.

If an internet connection is required this will also allow the protection to not be a blanketed concept. The guy in the article makes it out as if one hacker is going to ruin it for the rest of us. If an internet connection is required then I think all things copy protection wise are going to be personal, it won't play bootlegged discs, it wont play illegal copies, and if there is any attempt to hack anything it is isolated to just you.

Everyone is afraid of losing their "basic freedoms" as if copying media is a god-given right. Play by the rules and everything will work just fine. If the system is done correctly they COULD make it work like disc re-authorizations with software. Let's say you buy a disc, and you want to back it up and only watch the backup copy, now you can't do that anymore. Ok, solution...you buy a new dvd, when you play it, your player automatically sends a registration saying you legally purchased this movie (for the time being let's also assume you can play your newly bought movie at a friends house). Now, the dvd gets scratched or lost or something. no big deal, go online and tell them you need a new one, they will immediately turn the other disc off, it was stolen it will no longer play and they send you a new one for a nominal fee. Now there is no need for backup. Don't get me wrong I wish I could make copies for personal use, but the rest of the world has abused "personal use"


edit: I can see someone trying to cheat the system and ask for a new disc while hacking the disc/player to get them both to work, and the person might even get away with it, but why risk it? Why risk having your player turned into that famed "bookend"


p.s. great post onlooker

-Roy

All I know is that I won't be buying any of the devices if it means that I have to use component video to get it to work with my CRT projector.

I will just continue to use my PS2, because with component video there will not be any compelling reason to go to the PS3 (or Xbox 360, or any blue-ray or HD-DVD player either).

But maybe this will help?

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Pro...ideo/DCDA1.ASP

As far as I know the average consumer does not have a component input on their tv. Most ALL new tv's come with component inputs, but a lot of people don't know what they are, or care...and who wants to shell out $40 for a cable when you can get a $3 radio shack composite cable. Easily confused between consumers, component vs composite.

They would be shooting themselves in the foot if the next-gen gaming consoles only have a certain output. Most of my friends with an xbox or playstation have a small tv and hook audio and video cables in the same bundle. They are all excited about the new systems and are saving up already for the new systems, but they will not be too happy if they realize they need to shell out another $500 or so for a new tv and or cables.

I love the idea of having the 6 analog outs for surround as well as the optical. The SACD player on the playstation will only play multi-channel audio through the analog outs, a lot of people won't realize this for a while...they will get surround from the optical in games and dvds and wonder why the SACD won't work, most receivers only have 1 set of analog surround inputs...and if someone is savvy enough to know about SACD and the analog inputs etc chances are they aren't going to have their gaming system as their media player. As cool as it is I am not sure how I feel about the all-in-one factor of it, they might very well cut down on their primary audience. It will be too complex for the average user who doesn't own the gear necessary for it to run properly, and it won't be good enough for the gear freak who has the means to hook everything up. I'd be willing to bet they either make these systems with composite outs, or they will find a way to sell a universal adapter....stranger things have happened.

-Roy