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post #41 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Your question has no answer - but of course I was over-generalising also.

Yes, over generalising is never good - by US I meant the current admin but it is a problem - I can't keep mentioning Bush as opposed to the US as then I am cited for 'Bush bashing'. Can't win I guess
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #42 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
I hate to say it but there sectors of the U.S. that are not willing to co-exit with Muslims, Jews, non-believers, non-whites, etc.

I guess I shouldn't admit those nasty little realities of our own society. I guess I hate America.

There are indeed such Americans. They seem to keep the car bombings and RPG attacks to a minimum, however.

If some Muslims want to hate us,it is their buisness to do so until they start killing us at which time it becomes our buisness.
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post #43 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
There are indeed such Americans. They seem to keep the car bombings and RPG attacks to a minimum, however.

If some Muslims want to hate us,it is their buisness to do so until they start killing us at which time it becomes our buisness.

Surely the Muslims in the US do exactly the same - keep their suicide bombings and rpg attacks to a minimum. Or are there suicide bombings and mortar attacks occurring on the American continent that we are unaware of?

Of course if you refer to a theatre of war rather than a civilian infrastructure then things are slightly different. Unless of course the US don't use weapons in Iraq either.

But in any event, as I recall the US went into their country and started killing them - perhaps it became their business.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #44 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Surely the Muslims in the US do exactly the same - keep their suicide bombings and rpg attacks to a minimum. Or are there suicide bombings and mortar attacks occurring on the American continent that we are unaware of?

Why would they? I have not painted all Muslims with the same brush nor do I plan to.


Quote:
[i]Of course if you refer to a theatre of war rather than a civilian infrastructure then things are slightly different. Unless of course the US don't use weapons in Iraq either.

But in any event, as I recall the US went into their country and started killing them - perhaps it became their business. [/B]

Go back before Iraq. What you are seeing in Iraq is just a continuation of years of killing by those who hate the US and by association hate other Muslims who don't share their feelings. Iraq is the current focal point.
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post #45 of 143
I don't know if this has been posted before, but apparently that picture making the rounds turns out not to be Ahmadinejad.



post #46 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The US is not a uniform entity, so there is nothing that the US wants to do unilaterally.

So a state is not a Uniform entity, yet a religion (Islam) is.

You don't know what you're talking about.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #47 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
So a state is not a Uniform entity, yet a religion (Islam) is.

You don't know what you're talking about.


I think that you need to re-read my posts, oh - I forgot, you never read my posts (at least, based on your responses, that is what I have to assume).
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post #48 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes, over generalising is never good - by US I meant the current admin but it is a problem - I can't keep mentioning Bush as opposed to the US as then I am cited for 'Bush bashing'. Can't win I guess

I really think that GWB loves islam - he loves all religions, freak that he is. I personally would love to destroy both Christianity and Islam, and he is my polar oposite - he would like the two religions to live in some 69 yin-yang type peace.
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post #49 of 143
e#:

Quote:
Islam is certainly out to destroy the united states.

Quote:
The US is not a uniform entity, so there is nothing that the US wants to do unilaterally.

OK, so, is it just me, or are you claiming that a religion, Islam, is a uniform entity that is 'out to destroy the united states', whereas 'the united states' is not a uniform entity despite being a country, with a government and all that good stuff?

I think you should re-read your posts.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #50 of 143
Gene

1. First Seg. made an over general statement
2. Then I reversed the over general statement, in an attempt to get him to see that fact.
3. Then I admitted what I had done with "but of course I was over-generalising also"
4. Then you failed to grasp what had happened, and jumped in with more energy than thought

You are not unique, of course, but most of the others like you are on my side, so I don't care so much.
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post #51 of 143


Its just that, when you make such statements, it's not honest to try to get out of them with something like 'I was generalizing' - because generalization is a feature and virtue of dishonest people.

So I don't know, maybe you should try not to speak before thinking other times. That's why I'm telling you all of this, because if segovious hadn't mentioned that to you, you yourself wouldn't say that you were over-generalizing. You honestly believe that, and the rest is just BS to get out of the blind spot.

In any case, I'm glad 'most others like me' are on your side. I just don't think you're on the right side, that's all.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #52 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

Unfortunately this puts Capitalism on a crash-course with Islam, the two cannot co-exist as they are mutually exclusive.

.

Capitalism and Islam are mutually exclusive?
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post #53 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean


Its just that, when you make such statements, it's not honest to try to get out of them with something like 'I was generalizing' - because generalization is a feature and virtue of dishonest people.

So I don't know, maybe you should try not to speak before thinking other times. That's why I'm telling you all of this, because if segovious hadn't mentioned that to you, you yourself wouldn't say that you were over-generalizing. You honestly believe that, and the rest is just BS to get out of the blind spot.

In any case, I'm glad 'most others like me' are on your side. I just don't think you're on the right side, that's all.


Whatever
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post #54 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Capitalism and Islam are mutually exclusive?

Well, aren't there prohibitions on money lending in the Koran? They probably are in conflict, if not totally exclusive.
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post #55 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The first statement is demonstrably false. The US and the west in general is intent on opening new markets in various regions of the world - in fact it has to - and the ME is one of the area that are targeted for this.

Unfortunately this puts Capitalism on a crash-course with Islam, the two cannot co-exist as they are mutually exclusive.

What an incredilbly broad statement. Never knows a rich muslim? Sorry, but Islam has a history of trade and reaping the benefits of trade, i.e. capitalism.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

Of course, living in harmony is possible - but only if the west did not attempt to develop these markets. This it will not refrain from doing - so no harmony is possible.

So the 'west' should not try to exist in the ME? That's just another bullshit arguement. That the west is somehow at fault for looking for markets.

If the people don't want what the west has to offer, then say no and deal with the consequences. But, because in many cases, the people want it, and the 'west' provides it, the west is somehow the big baddie to you? Perhaps the next time you go to sell something on eBay, the buyer will stab you in the heart. After all, you went looking for a market, and that naturally begets violence.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

Islam is quite prepared to live and let live if the west kept to itself. this worked well in the past when resources were abundant but now they are dwindling the west must be predatory - this is the cause of the problem.

Islam will not - and should not - stand for it. No country should from anyone - not India with the British, not Tibet with the Chinese - no-one.

hmmm....predatory. The 'west' is using the big ugly weapon of capitalism to invade..ooooh. Guess, there is no precedent of predatory practices in Islam. And never anything violent. And nothing recent.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

Re 'bad information', I think you have it the wrong way round. moist Muslims and Middle Easterners know very well the sort of games the US likes to play - they have after all seen it in the raw up close and personal. It is the west that has no idea of what Islam is (witness this very thread) nor does it want to - of course westerners do not even have access to the truth of what is happening. it is their own right-wing media and government that is lying to them not any leftists.

Again, very over reaching statements. I'd dare say a higher number of muslims and middle easterners migrate to the US every year than the reverse. I'd say that this gives many in the US to meet, go to school, socialize and work with muslims. I'd guess that fewer middle easterners have had the opposite opportunity. I would say that people in the US have greater access to vast amounts of information from all sources (not saying they all use it), and that that access is, shall we say, more limited, in the utopia of the middle east.

But, then I forgot. This is the fellow that also believes that democracy and islam are mutally exclusive. Guess, the ragheads don't like freedom or something

So, seg, tell me, is Islam so inferior to other world religions that it can not adapt to things like civil liberties, freedoms, democracy, capitalism, equality of all, and basic modern concepts? And people like to call the catholic church a dinosaur.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #56 of 143
Seg:

Quote:
Because it doesn't mean that. This is a war against Islam waged by proven liars - nothing they say can be trusted.

This is not a war against Islam. There is no proof of that whatsoever. Secondly, proven liars? Why don't you go ahead and prove that. You and the other polarized lefities here don't make something true by repeating it over and over.
Thirdly, "nothing they say can be trusted?" That's a bit extreme and not in any way reasonable. Did you say the same of previous Us administrations, once in which...I don't know...the President was found to have lied under oath?

Quote:
didn't say that - read my post again and maybe we can talk.

Ok, let's see here....this is what you said, not that it makes sense I suppose.

Orginally posted by Seg:

Quote:
Well, that deserves an honest answer so I have to say no, there are no justifications I would accept

If Iran attacked the US as a nation State then I would accept the US right to retaliate though in all honesty, I can't see myself supporting them or agreeing with their probable methods, but I would accept that an unprovoked attack justifies retaliation.

Quote:

Ok, then let me out it more seriously for you.

the 'Islamic Revolution' you so fear from iran represents less than 8% of the total Muslims.

Of this 8% less than 1% are radicalised.

You face a threat far greater from the Wahabis and militant Sunnis who (unlike the Iranians) have literally hundreds of mosques and madrasas throughout the United States, who are not considered by your government to be a threat and who have tens of thousands of adherents. On your doorstep.

Oh, and they have already attacked you on your home soil once and are at war with you in Iraq.

Even if this Islamic Revolution' you so fear (really a minor heterodox sect) ever gets off the ground it will be crushed by other Muslims for the simple reason that they are more threatened by it than you are.

I for example would be more in the target line for writing this and other things than you ever would.

But don't let that stop you quaking with fear - it is after all your duty as a patriot.

Oh really, this is about the dumbest reasoning I have ever heard. Where do you get these numbers from and why should I believe them? Furthermore, why are the percentages relavent? The United States, which you apparently love to hate, represents only about 5% of the world's population...yet most would consider us the most powerful nation in the world. I simply do not see the relevance. Furthermore, do you really believe that Wahabi muslims are the only muslim extremists?

The Islamic Revolution expanding worldwide is a call to arms. If it is not, then perhaps you'd be good enough to explain what it is?

[quote]I'm not talking about extremism - I'm talking about Sunnism vs Shi'ism. They are fighting right now in Iraq, have fought in the Iraq/Iran war for 10 years and throughout history.

That's what the Sunnis are fighting - your 'Iranian Islamic revolution'.

Basically, Iraq will have to be unified and the whole of the middle east too before it ever gets to square one. That has not happened for 1000 years and it sure as hell ain't going to happen now under Bush's watch.[/quote[

That sounds an awful lot like an opinion to me, or an interpretation of the new President's remarks. I suppose we should just call it a "joke" and not worry about it.

Quote:

There is no discussion of it because it is nonsensical.

I could give you numerous reasons why and probably will soon. Digest the other points first.

Nonsensical? This will be good. Go ahead, I'm listening.
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post #57 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
I hate to say it but there sectors of the U.S. that are not willing to co-exit with Muslims, Jews, non-believers, non-whites, etc.

I guess I shouldn't admit those nasty little realities of our own society. I guess I hate America.

"sectors of the US". What exactly does that mean? Certain people may not wish to co-exist with Islam, but the US as a country is willing to co-exist with the religion provided entire um....sectors stop trying to destroy us.
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post #58 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
"sectors of the US". What exactly does that mean? Certain people may not wish to co-exist with Islam, but the US as a country is willing to co-exist with the religion provided entire um....sectors stop trying to destroy us.

What does one sector have to do with the other?

Certain (non-violent) Muslims live in the US perfectly fine (in non-bigoted regions).
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post #59 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
What does one sector have to do with the other?

Certain (non-violent) Muslims live in the US perfectly fine (in non-bigoted regions).

Most of them live perfectly fine in every region.

Its the radicals that we dont want living here.
After 9/11, after Spain, after London today, what needs to be done is that every single radical Muslim, anyone who belongs to a radical group or sympathizes with them, anywhere in the world , should be sent packing back to where they came from so that we all can live in peace.

Now.
Immediately.
No more bull, just do it.
post #60 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Most of them live perfectly fine in every region.

Its the radicals that we dont want living here.
After 9/11, after Spain, after London today, what needs to be done is that every single radical Muslim, anyone who belongs to a radical group or sympathizes with them, anywhere in the world , should be sent packing back to where they came from so that we all can live in peace.

Now.
Immediately.
No more bull, just do it.

Make sure to include any radical Christians who are spread over the world.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #61 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Make sure to include any radical Christians who are spread over the world.

When radical christians start killing people let me know.
post #62 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
When radical christians start killing people let me know.

I won't even bother. Really. What's the point?

If you don't want them to be here, don't be there.

Simple and fair, really.

Let's build some nice big walls, while we're at it. It's for our safety!
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #63 of 143
I went to work nauseous over what happened in London. All I could think about was how many good people had to die for absoltely no reason, but that some sick POS Radical Muslims aren't happy unless they are taking the lives of innocent people, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, it doesn't matter to them.

How many times does something like this have to happen before the West (and East) wakes up and takes every single Muslim who belongs to a radical group, or sympathizes with a radical group, and ships them the hell back where they came from.

Now! No more standing around and doing nothing. Round them up and get
them the fuck out of our countries before the citizens decide enough is enough and start taking action themselves.
post #64 of 143
Man, it's like the forum has gone all the way back to 1939.

<checks calendar>

\

How exactly do you determine if someone sympathizes with a radical Muslim group? Sounds too difficult to me. Ship 'em all out.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #65 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Man, it's like the forum has gone all the way back to 1939.

<checks calendar>

\

How exactly do you determine if someone sympathizes with a radical Muslim group? Sounds too difficult to me. Ship 'em all out.

Our 'intelligence', and i use the term loosely, has a database of those who belong to certain groups or give money to certain groups. This is in addition to people that Egypt and Saudi Arabia has warned us about that we allowed in as refugees.

There is no way to get rid of everyone, but those that we know about need to go.
post #66 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

My God - the frightening thing is that there are morons out there who lap all this up (yes), even AFTER the 1500th lie has been priven false yet again.

[/B]

The only story I read on it, in the local paper, said that he was *possibly* the person in the photo; so at least they left some room for consideration.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
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post #67 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
When radical christians start killing people let me know.

A few nice young men for you to consider:
post #68 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
A few nice young men for you to consider:





Home grown scum. There is no place to ship them off too.
And even you have to admit that they are an anomaly.
post #69 of 143
Bush is a failure.
He has never appropriately responded to 9/11, save for first going into Afghanistan.
He never completed the job.
He started a stupid ill advised war in Iraq.
He stood by while Iran built Nuclear Reactors.

And worse, far worse, is that he never closed our borders.
How stupid, how nearsighted, how gutless, how incredibly blind.

God knows how many Muslim radicals have come across our Southern border.
God knows how many Muslim radicals have come across our Northern border because Canada also is stupid and gutless.
We did politely ask Canada to stop letting in Muslims without background checks. They said no at first, then grudgingly said yes.
According to a Canadian terrorism expert on O'Reilly last night Canada has done nothing to stop the flow of radicals. Toronto is a hotbed of Muslim Radicals, right on our doorstep.

The United States is not protecting itself adequately. We have an incompetent President, Administration, and Congress. I would have expected better from Republicans. I expect Democrats to be pussies, not Republicans.
I am dissapointed, angry, disgusted, and generally POed!

Canada is no friend of ours, neither is Mexico. Britain is indeed a friend. Bush and Blair should share some blame for this atrocity for not doing what was necessary and doing what was not necessary.

OK, rant over for now.
post #70 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Our 'intelligence', and i use the term loosely, has a database of those who belong to certain groups or give money to certain groups. This is in addition to people that Egypt and Saudi Arabia has warned us about that we allowed in as refugees.

There is no way to get rid of everyone, but those that we know about need to go.

Our greatest weakness is one of the things we should be proudest of. Actually, it's our greatest strength. We're humane, and we're evidently prepared to die for it. How can we possibly lose?

If we start kicking people out then the terrorists have won. Simple. They've got their international race / religious crisis and the whole world turns into Chechneya.
post #71 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Our greatest weakness is one of the things we should be proudest of. Actually, it's our greatest strength. We're humane, and we're evidently prepared to die for it.

If we start kicking people out then the terrorists have won. Simple. They've got their international race / religious crisis and the whole world turns into Chechneya.

I've got news for you-they HAVE won.
Standing around and dieing because it makes us feel humane to do nothing about it is not an option.
In my opinion, we need to do whatever it takes to keep them out.
post #72 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
I've got news for you-they HAVE won.
Standing around and dieing because it makes us feel humane to do nothing about it is not an option.
In my opinion, we need to do whatever it takes to keep them out.

I'll have my dignity and everything our grandparents fought and died for to preserve, thanks.
post #73 of 143
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I'll have my dignity and everything our grandparents fought and died for to preserve, thanks.

There is no deficit of dignity to take the means necessary to protect yourself and your loved ones from those who mean to do you harm.
post #74 of 143
OBushma is banging the war drum again. Another false flag operation to gin up hatred for the people of Iran.

U.S. Accuses Iranians of Plotting to Kill Saudi Envoy
post #75 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

OBushma is banging the war drum again. Another false flag operation to gin up hatred for the people of Iran.

U.S. Accuses Iranians of Plotting to Kill Saudi Envoy

I'm sure you're trying to be facetious, but what you say here is almost certainly true.
post #76 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe_in_Texas View Post

There are indeed such Americans. They seem to keep the car bombings and RPG attacks to a minimum, however.

If some Muslims want to hate us,it is their buisness to do so until they start killing us at which time it becomes our buisness.

I know this is a dream but why can't people of all religions and sects all over the world live in harmony and peace not hate and bias? That is what Jesus would have wanted in his life.
post #77 of 143
Iran is fucked. It's right up next to North Korea on the next country the US has to invade to distract Americans. China is getting ready to buy lots of US war bonds.

The unrest in the US is alarming, there was nothing like it post dot-com bust. There is some real concern now. Iraq was a convenient distraction post dot-com bust, post 9/11.

Now post-global financial meltdown, I guess it's shoot for Iran and North Korea or bust.
post #78 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve666 View Post

Bush is a failure.
He has never appropriately responded to 9/11, save for first going into Afghanistan.
He never completed the job.
He started a stupid ill advised war in Iraq.
He stood by while Iran built Nuclear Reactors.

And worse, far worse, is that he never closed our borders.
How stupid, how nearsighted, how gutless, how incredibly blind.

God knows how many Muslim radicals have come across our Southern border.
God knows how many Muslim radicals have come across our Northern border because Canada also is stupid and gutless.
We did politely ask Canada to stop letting in Muslims without background checks. They said no at first, then grudgingly said yes.
According to a Canadian terrorism expert on O'Reilly last night Canada has done nothing to stop the flow of radicals. Toronto is a hotbed of Muslim Radicals, right on our doorstep.

The United States is not protecting itself adequately. We have an incompetent President, Administration, and Congress. I would have expected better from Republicans. I expect Democrats to be pussies, not Republicans.
I am dissapointed, angry, disgusted, and generally POed!

Canada is no friend of ours, neither is Mexico. Britain is indeed a friend. Bush and Blair should share some blame for this atrocity for not doing what was necessary and doing what was not necessary.

OK, rant over for now.

Neither is Russia or China. Both cannot be trusted as allies of the U.S.
post #79 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I know this is a dream but why can't people of all religions and sects all over the world live in harmony and peace not hate and bias? That is what Jesus would have wanted in his life.

Ironically that's what most people want. Somehow, somewhere along the line somebody got the idea that "their" God or Gods are different. It's all the same.

The whole thing gets really crazy when monotheists claim their God is the right God... Because, what does that make the other Gods? Other Gods? There goes monotheism out the window. If you believe in monotheism then it's the same God by definition of monotheism.
post #80 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Ironically that's what most people want. Somehow, somewhere along the line somebody got the idea that "their" God or Gods are different. It's all the same.

The whole thing gets really crazy when monotheists claim their God is the right God... Because, what does that make the other Gods? Other Gods? There goes monotheism out the window. If you believe in monotheism then it's the same God by definition of monotheism.

Actually, it's extremely simple. Some monotheists do believe that their God is the same God as the God of other monotheists. Those that don't believe that think that the other Gods are all false, thus not Gods at all.
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