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post #121 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It's not a conspiracy.

Here's my summary of the story, taken from a variety of sources. Tell me what you disagree with.

We know that the CIA discredited the Africa-Iraq-nuclear story. The documents alleging a link were known to be a forgery. For that reason, George Tenet nixed a line about it in a Bush speech in October 2002. But it appeared anyway in Bush's SOTU speech a few months later. There's debate about whether the CIA nixed that too, but Rice has said they had other information of their own, or something.

When, a year or so later, the press starts reporting the fact that the intelligence people never believed the Iraq-Africa-nuclear connection, the administration defends it, which pisses off Wilson, who played a role in the investigation of the issue.

Wilson was originally appointed an ambassador to Africa by George HW Bush, he was called a hero by Bush for helping Americans in Iraq when he was there at the start of the (1990) Gulf War, and then he was the National Security Council's Africa director under Clinton. He was an expert on both Iraq and Africa, and a strong critic of Saddam Hussein.

So a pissed-off Wilson writes an op-ed calling the administration liars for claiming they didn't know the Africa-Iraq-nuclear story was bogus.

The White House defends themselves, and part of that defense involves criticizing Wilson. One of their criticisms is that his wife recommended him - it was just a kind of family-sponsored vacation to Niger rather than a real intelligence trip. As part of Rove (and perhaps others) revealing that his wife recommended him, they also reveal that she works for the CIA. Novak has admitted that CIA people he talked to before he wrote the story asked him not to reveal her, but he did anyway.

After that, the White House defends it for a while, but Tenet again said that "the 16 words" should never have been included in the SOTU. But he takes the blame himself for not being forceful enough with the WH, or something. George Tenet is given the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and lives happily ever after.

Needless to say there are several points that you mentioned that I disagree with. I could type out a long response to it, but a few professionals have done a better job that happens to match my own views.

WSJ

They do a very good job.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #122 of 346
Too bad that WSJ article is frought with falsehoods and bad information.

In fact, do a compare-and-contrast between the RNC and WSJ statements. They didn't even bother to change the ordering of claims, in some cases.



1st Talking Point

"Once Again, Democrats Are Engaging In Blatant Partisan Attacks."

1st Paragraph of WSJ op/ed:

"Democrats and most of the Beltway press corps are baying for Karl Rove's head over his role in exposing a case of CIA nepotism involving Joe Wilson and his wife, Valerie Plame."

...

2nd Talking Point

"Karl Rove Discouraged A Reporter From Writing A False Story Based On A False Premise."

2nd Paragraph of WSJ op/ed:

"For Mr. Rove is turning out to be the real "whistleblower" in this whole sorry pseudo-scandal. He's the one who warned Time's Matthew Cooper and other reporters to be wary of Mr. Wilson's credibility."

...

3rd Talking Point

"The False Premise Was Joe Wilson's Allegation That The Vice President Sent Him To Niger"

2nd Paragraph, 2nd sentence of WSJ op/ed:

"He [Rove] is the one who told the press the truth that Mr. Wilson had been recommended for the CIA consulting gig by his wife, not by Vice President Dick Cheney as Mr. Wilson was asserting on the airwaves."

...

And on, and on, and on...it's really hard to read through the whole neurotic piece which ends with this foul little morsel:

"As for the press corps, rather than calling for Mr. Rove to be fired, they ought to be grateful to him for telling the truth."


They've got NOTHING! Just more of the same "blame the victim" and ignoring the issue at hand, per usual. It's damage-control, nothing more.
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post #123 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Needless to say there are several points that you mentioned that I disagree with. I could type out a long response to it, but a few professionals have done a better job that happens to match my own views.

WSJ

They do a very good job.

Nick

Of course, it's their opinion and not neccessarily the truth.
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post #124 of 346
When you cut through the crap, this case is simple: a couple of political officials in the Bush White House decided to deliberately and systematically release the name of a covert CIA operative to the press solely in order to score some minor debating points against her husband, a man who had recently embarrassed them in the pages of the New York Times. The rest is just fluff. Either you're outraged by such a casual attitude toward national security or you aren't.

I wish more Republicans were acquitting themselves honorably on this question. So far the score on their side is pretty poor.

Thank you Kevin Drum
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post #125 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Also, I'm reading in the WSJ today that:



I'm not going to sort this out --- let the Grand Jury find the fire.

No, dmz, I think you can sort it out.

1. Bush hyped discredited information about Iraq's nukes in order to justify the war. The administration has admitted that Bush shouldn't have said what he said about the nukes.
2. Wilson knew something about the Africa nukes story, was ticked off by what he saw as their dishonesty, and so wrote an op-ed telling them off.
3. The Bush administration went after Wilson, and tried to discredit him by telling lots of reporters that it was his wife, a CIA agent, who got him the job, and therefore (for reasons that I still don't understand) he shouldn't be believed.

Here are my specific responses to the op-ed you cited. Feel free to disagree.

Here's a link to the piece.

Quote:
To be prosecuted under the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act, Mr. Rove would had to have deliberately and maliciously exposed Ms. Plame knowing that she was an undercover agent and using information he'd obtained in an official capacity.

Most of this is false. Here's a link to the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

1. The term "maliciously" does not appear, and is not implied. You simply have to know you're outing a covert agent.
2. The information does not have to be obtained in an official capacity - that's one possibility, but not the only one.

Quote:
Mr. Wilson had been recommended for the CIA consulting gig by his wife, not by Vice President Dick Cheney

This is the same shit talking point that ticked me off earlier in this thread. No, Cheney didn't personally say "hey let's get that Joe Wilson to check this out." But Wilson didn't claim that. He said Cheney asked the CIA about it, and the CIA asked him to look into it.

Quote:
Mr. Wilson, who first "outed" himself as a CIA consultant in a melodramatic New York Times op-ed in July 2003. At the time he claimed to have thoroughly debunked the Iraq-Niger yellowcake uranium connection that President Bush had mentioned in his now famous "16 words" on the subject in that year's State of the Union address.

He didn't claim to have thoroughly debunked it, the CIA claimed that, George Tenet claimed that, and the White House ultimately admitted it by saying they shouldn't have included those 16 words.

Here's what Wilson said about it in his op-ed.

Quote:
It was my experience in Africa that led me to play a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs.

and later:
Quote:
The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government. The question now is how that answer was or was not used by our political leadership. If my information was deemed inaccurate, I understand (though I would be very interested to know why).

"Played a small role" and "help formulate the answer" and "if my information was deemed inaccurate, I understand" are very, very different from "he claimed to have thoroughly debunked" the issue.


Quote:
But his day in the political sun was short-lived. The bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee report last July cited the note that Ms. Plame had sent recommending her husband for the Niger mission. "Interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD [Counterproliferation Division] employee, suggested his name for the trip," said the report.

His wife claims that she didn't recommend him, but her bosses asked her about him after they or someone else thought of him first, because of his expertise (ambassador to Africa and Iraq, Africa director for NSC). She responded to their request by saying yeah, he's qualified. See this article - guess who initially leaked a supposed CIA memo saying that Plame was at the meeting where Wilson was recommended? Talon News. That's right, Jeff Gannon.

Quote:
The same bipartisan report also pointed out that the forged documents Mr. Wilson claimed to have discredited hadn't even entered intelligence channels until eight months after his trip. And it said the CIA interpreted the information he provided in his debrief as mildly supportive of the suspicion that Iraq had been seeking uranium in Niger.

That might be true, but this is what Wilson said about the forged documents: "While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake..." and then later "As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government and were probably forged." So he was told that someone had this document, and that's why the CIA was interested in this issue, but he never saw them himself, and he also read in the media that they were believed to have been forged. Maybe it was that specific document that got the CIA's interest in the Niger-Iraq connection, or maybe it was something else. But it doesn't matter to his trip or his conclusion.

Quote:
About the same time, another inquiry headed by Britain's Lord Butler delivered its own verdict on the 16 words: "We conclude also that the statement in President Bush's State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that 'The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa' was well-founded."

Yup, the Brits stood by it. But it had been explicitly discredited by the CIA and removed from a Bush speech at Tenet's insistence. The White House has subsequently acknowledged that it shouldn't have been in his speech. So why does it matter that someone else in a different country is standing by it?
post #126 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
1. Bush hyped discredited information about Iraq's nukes in order to justify the war. The administration has admitted that Bush shouldn't have said what he said about the nukes.

They reluctantly admitted those 16 words should've remained off the SOTU......or from any speeches FROM any speeches after the speech in Cincinnati where they were removed.
Quote:
2. Wilson knew something about the Africa nukes story, was ticked off by what he saw as their dishonesty, and so wrote an op-ed telling them off.

I don't know how it came about, but it's obvious he went "against them" by revealing his conclusion about the Niger uranium. The same conclusion reached by our embassy there, and by a four star General who also went to investigate.
Quote:
3. The Bush administration went after Wilson, and tried to discredit him by telling lots of reporters that it was his wife, a CIA agent, who got him the job, and therefore (for reasons that I still don't understand) he shouldn't be believed.

Isn't that cute? They not only told one reporter ("we were discussing something else and then Wilson's wife was briefly mentioned')"casually", but they told lots of them. At least 6 of them.
Quote:
This is the same shit talking point that ticked me off earlier in this thread. No, Cheney didn't personally say "hey let's get that Joe Wilson to check this out." But Wilson didn't claim that. He said Cheney asked the CIA about it, and the CIA asked him to look into it.

Correct. And even if it were true that Plame recommended hubby for the job....like Mrs. Wilson had the capacity to order Joe Wilson to Niger on behalf of the CIA. Stupid nonsense.
Quote:
guess who initially leaked a supposed CIA memo saying that Plame was at the meeting where Wilson was recommended? Talon News. That's right, Jeff Gannon.

I need to confirm this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the gay-fake-reporter-"escort" was involved. Can it get more farcical than this?

You're making too much sense for this place. The worrying thing is that the usual far right wing suspects who accuse the rest of us of hating the country and not being patriots don't seem to have a problem with the possibility that indeed a CIA covert operative involved with WMDs has been outed for petty political gain thus endangering our national security. It's absurd, but expected.
post #127 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
No, dmz, I think you can sort it out.

1. Bush hyped discredited information about Iraq's nukes in order to justify the war. The administration has admitted that Bush shouldn't have said what he said about the nukes.
2. Wilson knew something about the Africa nukes story, was ticked off by what he saw as their dishonesty, and so wrote an op-ed telling them off.
3. The Bush administration went after Wilson, and tried to discredit him by telling lots of reporters that it was his wife, a CIA agent, who got him the job, and therefore (for reasons that I still don't understand) he shouldn't be believed.

You got it absolutely right BRussell.

It really is that simple.

But wingnutteryland will still peddle falsehoods without blinking an eye. It's what they do best.
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post #128 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
I need to confirm this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the gay-fake-reporter-"escort" was involved. Can it get more farcical than this?

I know. I just learned that today. This scandal takes everything about the Bush administration and just scrunches it all into one big ball. Next we'll find out that Enron funded Wilson's trip and Terry Schiavo forged the Niger documents.
post #129 of 346
Huh. Turns out Ken Mehlman, chairman of the RNC, is a lying, duplicitous sack of shit. Who woulda thunk it?

Here's a passage from the "why this whole thing is about what a self aggrandizing bozo Joe Wilson is"smear sheet he's sent out so all the good little talking heads can be on the same page:

Quote:
Wilson Falsely Claimed That It Was Vice President Cheney Who Sent Him To Niger, But The Vice President Has Said He Never Met Him And Didnt Know Who Sent Him:

........Joe Wilson: What They Did, What The Office Of The Vice President Did, And, In Fact, I Believe Now From Mr. Libbys Statement, It Was Probably The Vice President Himself ... (CNNs Late Edition, 8/3/03)

Here's what he actually said, via the cited transcript: (scroll down about half way)

Quote:
WILSON: Well, look, it's absolutely true that neither the vice president nor Dr. Rice nor even George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger.

What they did, what the office of the vice president did, and, in fact, I believe now from Mr. Libby's statement, it was probably the vice president himself...

BLITZER: Scooter Libby is the chief of staff for the vice president.

WILSON: Scooter Libby.

They asked essentially that we follow up on this report -- that the agency follow up on the report. So it was a question that went to the CIA briefer from the Office of the Vice President. The CIA, at the operational level, made a determination that the best way to answer this serious question was to send somebody out there who knew something about both the uranium business and those Niger officials that were in office at the time these reported documents were executed.

So the fucking chairman of the RNC very obviously, very deliberately takes a quote out of context to make it appear that Wilson claimed that Cheney personally sent him to Niger, just so he can refute it and build a case that Wilson is the bad guy here.

Jesus. I think the worst thing is that the national discourse is so utterly debased that Mehlman figures he can traffic in such transparent bullshit and nobody will call him on it, and that he's probably right.

Certainly we have our own gang of ditto heads that will hang onto the "but Joe Wilson is a proven liar" meme no matter how many times they have the truth shown to them, and no matter how irrelevant such spurious smears are to the case at hand.

Gosh, after the thirtieth or fortieth time, you might start to get the idea it was deliberate.
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post #130 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Gosh, after the thirtieth or fortieth time, you might start to get the idea it was deliberate.

That has been the GOP way for years.

And Dean's the "disaster".
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post #131 of 346
Maybe I am an idiot, but what does Joe Wilson have to do with the current case at all?

Is Rove actually attempting to justify an idiotic act?

Nobody cares about Joe Wilson, no one cared about Joe Wilson, people are saying to themselves Joe Wilson - who?

This was a battle that Rove shouldn't have taken on in the first place. Joe wilson's claims would have died right along with the fact that we didn't find any goddamn WMDs in iraq, and instead we have, two years subsequently, a regurgitation of some brutal political nastiness.

The War in Iraq isn't unpopular because we have no reason for being there, it is unpopular because we have had people there dying for more than two years, and have been in a war like state for almost four years... A suicide bomber blows himself in Iraq killing about as many people as died in london last week, and our national conscience dies a little... 18 children. ok. 21 people at a mosque. ok. 5 recruits. ok. but each time we say ok, it gets pounded into our heads that if we weren't there, we wouldn't have to care, and possibly, just possibly the suicide bombings would stop.... the blood leting would stop.
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post #132 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
1. Bush hyped discredited information about Iraq's nukes in order to justify the war. The administration has admitted that Bush shouldn't have said what he said about the nukes.

I think in light of the British stance and the stance of the Senate Intelligence Committee's findings, that is not accurate --- GW ran for cover a little too early on the 16 words business.

Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Most of this is false. Here's a link to the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

1. The term "maliciously" does not appear, and is not implied. You simply have to know you're outing a covert agent.
2. The information does not have to be obtained in an official capacity - that's one possibility, but not the only one.

The text of the statute reads:

"...knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agents intelligence relationship to the United States."

I would have to say that that would constitute a certain measure of 'malicious' behavior.

Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Yup, the Brits stood by it. But it had been explicitly discredited by the CIA and removed from a Bush speech at Tenet's insistence. The White House has subsequently acknowledged that it shouldn't have been in his speech. So why does it matter that someone else in a different country is standing by it?

Well, it matter's to the British, they seem to be operating under the impression that there was some smoke to go with that fire.

At any rate, we have serious questions as to what is going on with this; one reporter sitting in the can, limited information as why Novak is out and Miller and Cooper are getting the screws put to them, speculation running as wild as the washington press corps --- including "was Miller here own source" --- then their is Rove, who carries a political bounty on his head, regardless.

Too deep for me. I'll let you nail down all the hard-and fast-details.

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post #133 of 346
Some reading from 2 years ago, a long thread on this same topic! Hindsight is fascinating!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...0&pagenumber=1

The snail-pace of our media never ceases to amaze. This was a major issue so long ago, and it looked back then as if Karl Rove was responsible, via Novak, for outing Plame. What is so different about this case now? Quite possibly, the fact that we had just gone to war with the approval of some 70% of the American people, and the media didnt want to appear "unpatriotic" by running a story implicating the brain behind the Bush White House in serious criminal activity. Right now, public approval for the same Bush White House and the same war is running low, at around 42%, so it is now "safe" for the corporate media to air this story.

Typical, sickeningly cowardly conduct by the axis of weasels CNN, ABC and Fox, etc: they don the knee-pads when the admin. is popular, and only get the whips and chains out when they are having a tough time.
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post #134 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Some reading from 2 years ago, a long thread on this same topic! Hindsight is fascinating!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...0&pagenumber=1

The snail-pace of our media never ceases to amaze. This was a major issue so long ago, and it looked back then as if Karl Rove was responsible, via Novak, for outing Plame. What is so different about this case now? Quite possibly, the fact that we had just gone to war with the approval of some 70% of the American people, and the media didnt want to appear "unpatriotic" by running a story implicating the brain behind the Bush White House in serious criminal activity. Right now, public approval for the same Bush White House and the same war is running low, at around 42%, so it is now "safe" for the corporate media to air this story.

Typical, sickeningly cowardly conduct by the axis of weasels CNN, ABC and Fox, etc: they don the knee-pads when the admin. is popular, and only get the whips and chains out when they are having a tough time.

You said it, brother.

Scanning the old thread, I'm struck by the quick deployment by our own little ditto heads of the Bush White House (aka Rove) SOP: find someone who you can characterize as a "Bush hater" and begin to belittle them as a petty, self-aggrandizing martinet with an ax to grind.

In some of the posts from the earlier thread, you could literally take the estimations of who Joe Wilson is, his character and motivations, and swap them out with the smear jobs on other admin figures that dared to stray from the compound (hey, remember Richard Clarke?).

Funny thing, that every single in-house critic of Bush has the same interchangeable personality. Small minded, looking for a book deal, hell bent on revenge for some career slight, a glory hound, an implacable and long term foe of everything Bush has tried to achieve, possibly doing the bidding of Unknown Agents.......

Fuckers don't even bother to switch up the smear profile, since they know that it will be taken up with tooth rattling fierceness by the legions of haters, each and every time, without question.

That Joe Wilson! What a jackass! Pretending to be a player! Pretending his wife is a real spy! Willing to say anything to get his face on TV! Consumed with hatred for Bush, probably cause he didn't get the promotion he wanted!

That Richard Clarke! What a jackass! Pretending to be a player! Pretending he actually influenced policy! Willing to say anything to get his face on TV! Consumed with hatred for Bush, probably because he didn't get the promotion he wanted!

That Paul O'Neill! What an jackass! Pretending to be a player! Glorified bean counter pretending to know something about foreign policy! Willing to say anything to get his face on TV! etc....

Rove must have it set up as a Word template.
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post #135 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Fuckers don't even bother to switch up the smear profile, since they know that it will be taken up with tooth rattling fierceness by the legions of haters, each and every time, without question.

That Joe Wilson! What a jackass! Pretending to be a player! Pretending his wife is a real spy! Willing to say anything to get his face on TV! Consumed with hatred for Bush, probably cause he didn't get the promotion he wanted!

That Richard Clarke! What a jackass! Pretending to be a player! Pretending he actually influenced policy! Willing to say anything to get his face on TV! Consumed with hatred for Bush, probably because he didn't get the promotion he wanted!

That Paul O'Neill! What an jackass! Pretending to be a player! Glorified bean counter pretending to know something about foreign policy! Willing to say anything to get his face on TV! etc....

Rove must have it set up as a Word template.

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post #136 of 346
Sydney Blumenthal, in Salon, with an excellent play by play.

A good refresher course on how every talking point in circulation amongst the screaming heads is a calculated lie (just like they were two years ago), from "Plame got her husband the job", to "She wasn't really covert" to "Wilson is an under-qualified opportunist" and so on.

He also makes the important point that while Rove knows how to work the punditry to a fine froth, his mojo has no sway over a professional prosecutor doing his job, and that is where Unka Karl's future will be decided.
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post #137 of 346
Another heads up.

This just keeps getting weirder.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #138 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Another heads up.
This just keeps getting weirder.

Not weird at all. It was to be expected that they'd have to synchronize stories and probably look for a fall guy so to speak. We'll see who the poor idiot is.
Quote:
Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

So who gave Novak the info.? And who gave Rove the info. if Rove was just confirming with Novak? ....and WTF is Rove doing talking matters of National Security with the press? discussing the identity of a CIA operative with a member of the press? Why didn't he refuse to comment in the interest of National Security?

"I heard that too".
post #139 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
So who gave Novak the info.? And who gave Rove the info. if Rove was just confirming with Novak? ....and WTF is Rove doing talking matters of National Security with the press? discussing the identity of a CIA operative with a member of the press? Why didn't he refuse to comment in the interest of National Security?

The plot thickens.....

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #140 of 346
What was the line from The Matrix? ..."follow the pink bunny..."

now Wilson:
Quote:
....acknowledged his wife was no longer in an undercover job at the time Novak's column first identified her. "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity," he said.

far out

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #141 of 346
I'd like to see the source for that line, dmz. It's not consistent with other things I've seen that all suggest she was covert at the time.
post #142 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I'd like to see the source for that line, dmz. It's not consistent with other things I've seen that all suggest she was covert at the time.

I made it up!

just kidding


from an AP writer in newsday:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nation...home-headlines

here's another (more partisan) link, too:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...1257-9887r.htm

Pesonally, I'm looking for a second bunny on the grassy knoll behind a Roswell Circle-K theory.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #143 of 346
Your second link....the "more partisan" (as opposed to totally partisan WT)one makes no reference to your first link. Of course, you just had to throw more "even her neighbors knew she was CIA" BS into the mix even though the neighbor they interviewed had no idea. Brilliant!

Well done.
post #144 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Your second link....the "more partisan" (as opposed to totally partisan WT)one makes no reference to your first link. Of course, you just had to throw more "even her neighbors knew she was CIA" BS into the mix even though the neighbor they interviewed had no idea. Brilliant!

Well done.

no conclusions, yet, Gilsch -- just a whole bunch of people contradicting each other in some very strange circumstances.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #145 of 346
Here ya go-- The CNN interview that has wingnuttery all atwitter.

Relevant quote:

Quote:
BLITZER: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife, who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that.

What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you.

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

BLITZER: But she hadn't been a clandestine officer for some time before that?

WILSON: That's not anything that I can talk about. And, indeed, I'll go back to what I said earlier, the CIA believed that a possible crime had been committed, and that's why they referred it to the Justice Department.

She was not a clandestine officer at the time that that article in Vanity Fair appeared. And I have every right to have the American public know who I am and not to have myself defined by those who would write the sorts of things that are coming out, being spewed out of the mouths of the RNC...

So, it's very obvious indeed that Wilson is responding to the idea that he somehow contributed to "outing" his own wife by granting interviews, making the point that once the Novak column hit the streets she was no longer clandestine and that her previous status could in no way be used to argue against his subsequent choices.

In fact, it's so obvious this is what he meant it seems like a stretch that anyone could legitimately mistake his meaning.

So, DMZ, the reason it seems to you that "a lot of people are contradicting a lot of other people" is that creating a sense of hard to follow accusation and counter accusation is, specifically, part of the Republican strategy for damage control, which depends on people like you, who can pretend to be reasonable folks just wanting "all the facts" while in fact eagerly disseminating endless heaping portions of ludicrous disinformation.

There really is a "slippery slope", and it really does have a moral dimension, and you really are a fan boy of shoving us down that slope.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #146 of 346
You're right, addabox. Wilson meant that, because of Bob Novak, she lost her status: "As soon as his article came out, my wife was no longer clandestine." I think the spin is that he's admitting she wasn't clandestine at the time Novak's article came out.

I bet that's it. It just came out weird the way he said it. Everything that I've seen suggests she was covert at the time the article came out.
post #147 of 346
Quote:
So, DMZ, the reason it seems to you that "a lot of people are contradicting a lot of other people" is that creating a sense of hard to follow accusation and counter accusation is, specifically, part of the Republican strategy for damage control, which depends on people like you, who can pretend to be reasonable folks just wanting "all the facts" while in fact eagerly disseminating endless heaping portions of ludicrous disinformation.

DING, DING, DING, DING... What he said.
You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
Reply
post #148 of 346
It's also interesting to note that in that interview Wolf Blitzer, he of the (ahem) "liberal media", gravely recites these idiotic right wing talking points about Wilson's public profile, calling them "serious charges", when, in fact, they are not "charges" at all but nothing more part of an effort to smear Joe Wilson by whatever means necessary.

The primary point, of course, is that Wilson could be a cannibalistic pedophile and it would not any bearing, whatsoever, on the legality of revealing the identity of a clandestine CIA officer.

I bet Blitzer would be great interviewing the family of sexual assault victims:

"Now, you say your wife was raped, yet here you are, granting me an interview. How do you respond to these charges?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #149 of 346
Quote:
I know. I just learned that today. This scandal takes everything about the Bush administration and just scrunches it all into one big ball. Next we'll find out that Enron funded Wilson's trip and Terry Schiavo forged the Niger documents.

That and the Word template. Man that really had me laughing.

I say...OFF WITH HIS HEAD! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #150 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
When you cut through the crap, this case is simple: a couple of political officials in the Bush White House decided to deliberately and systematically release the name of a covert CIA operative to the press solely in order to score some minor debating points against her husband, a man who had recently embarrassed them in the pages of the New York Times. The rest is just fluff. Either you're outraged by such a casual attitude toward national security or you aren't.

I wish more Republicans were acquitting themselves honorably on this question. So far the score on their side is pretty poor.

Thank you Kevin Drum

I'm not sure what the truth is here, but somehow I don't think I'll be taking your word for it. It's funny that you attempt to pick apart "Republican talking points", and yet in the very next post you regurgitate the Democratic party line.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #151 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
"As for the press corps, rather than calling for Mr. Rove to be fired, they ought to be grateful to him for telling the truth."


They've got NOTHING! Just more of the same "blame the victim" and ignoring the issue at hand, per usual. It's damage-control, nothing more.

Why change the mode of operation in mid-stream? It has gotten them this far . . . that same strategy and NOTHING else!

You watch, they'll end up blaming Collin Powell . . . . who, if we're lucky will say "enough already!!"

and

just because it sums it all up so nicely:

I
shall
repeat this:
So, DMZ, the reason it seems to you that "a lot of people are contradicting a lot of other people" is that creating a sense of hard to follow accusation and counter accusation is, specifically, part of the Republican strategy for damage control, which depends on people like you, who can pretend to be reasonable folks just wanting "all the facts" while in fact eagerly disseminating endless heaping portions of ludicrous disinformation.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #152 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Why change the mode of operation in mid-stream? It has gotten them this far . . . that same strategy and NOTHING else!

You watch, they'll end up blaming Collin Powell . . . . who, if we're lucky will say "enough already!!"

and

just because it sums it all up so nicely:

I
shall
repeat this:
So, DMZ, the reason it seems to you that "a lot of people are contradicting a lot of other people" is that creating a sense of hard to follow accusation and counter accusation is, specifically, part of the Republican strategy for damage control, which depends on people like you, who can pretend to be reasonable folks just wanting "all the facts" while in fact eagerly disseminating endless heaping portions of ludicrous disinformation.


Oh, puuuuuleeeease. You guys welded to a particular party need to take off the blinders and speculate in a wider context. Plame as payback? Most definitely. Wilson lying. Sounds like that's true too. Wilson somehow being ready to go, making hay out of the outing --- hmmm, yes. The email about Rove being a source was used to call for Rove's resignation, but OOPS! it tuns out that Novak told him about Plame, and that Rove emailed the WH security bubba about the conversation with Cooper.

I've told you guys before and I'll tell you again, this is a nasty little catfight, and the energizer bunnies out there, guys on a par with a Clinton or a Rove you will play hell laying a glove on them --- they will turn the accusations around, play passive/agressive and end up making the preception of their opposition into a wheezing, learing lunatic mob with torches and pitchforks -- and walk away smelling like roses.

And in the end we will not know what happened. But in any case, you guys tend to see conspiracy in any outcome that doesn't blow your skirt up, so I'm not sure what the real point is here. Overall, the left seems to have replaced having a plan with making gulag accusations about Gitmo, going after Delay Rove, whoever-it-is-this-week, and feeding Al Jezzera talking points.

Politics is a phony business from top to bottom, but the least these parties could do is actually give us different options, rather than setting up special porsecutors in between co-opting each others economic and domestic policies.

"Strange days, indeed --- most peculiar, mama."
-John Lennon

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #153 of 346
dmz, I agree that there are lots of details here, and we don't really know all the facts yet. So, as you say, it's important to set that aside and look at the wider context. That wider context is this:

Did the Bush administration hype evidence of WMDs to go to war?

The other questions, like whether Rove and others violated any laws while engaged in the hyping, are really minor in comparison, IMO.
post #154 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Oh, puuuuuleeeease. You guys welded to a particular party need to take off the blinders and speculate in a wider context.

What "context" would that be? That when people you are politically sympathetic to behave hideously we should adopt the convenient and cowardly line of "everybody's bad and nothing can be known?"

Quote:
Plame as payback? Most definitely.

OK.

Quote:
Wilson lying. Sounds like that's true too. Wilson somehow being ready to go, making hay out of the outing --- hmmm, yes.

"Sounds like?" In which echo chamber? You not only have no evidence for this (which makes it nothing but flak), but given "Plame as payback", it is completely and utterly irrelevant (which I believe makes about the 49th time you've had this pointed out to you).

Quote:
The email about Rove being a source was used to call for Rove's resignation, but OOPS! it tuns out that Novak told him about Plame, and that Rove emailed the WH security bubba about the conversation with Cooper.

For someone who wants to chalk it all up to "hopelessly complex doings of corrupt untouchables", you sure do seem to keep track of all the little bogus "gotchas" and right wing chatter. I already explained the "Wilson says his wife wasn't covert" lie you were quick to throw in the mix. This "Novak told Rove" shit is coming form Rove's lawyer and means exactly nothing. Just more hand waving for people like you.

Quote:
I've told you guys before and I'll tell you again, this is a nasty little catfight, and the energizer bunnies out there, guys on a par with a Clinton or a Rove you will play hell laying a glove on them --- they will turn the accusations around, play passive/agressive and end up making the preception of their opposition into a wheezing, learing lunatic mob with torches and pitchforks -- and walk away smelling like roses.

AKA "Everybody is bad and nothing is knowable".

Quote:
And in the end we will not know what happened. But in any case, you guys tend to see conspiracy in any outcome that doesn't blow your skirt up, so I'm not sure what the real point is here. Overall, the left seems to have replaced having a plan with making gulag accusations about Gitmo, going after Delay Rove, whoever-it-is-this-week, and feeding Al Jezzera talking points.

AKA "Everybody is bad and nothing is knowable, except the Democrats are the worst of all".

Quote:
Politics is a phony business from top to bottom, but the least these parties could do is actually give us different options, rather than setting up special porsecutors in between co-opting each others economic and domestic policies.

"Strange days, indeed --- most peculiar, mama."
-John Lennon

You know, I wish you could bring some of your oddly diffident and laissez faire feelings about compromising national security for political payback to other arenas......say, human sexuality.

I think we would all be very impressed by your integrity and consistent moral stance if you would begin posting things like

"Well, yes, people are going to have sex lots of different ways, and mostly under cover of darkness, and some of it will no doubt be creepy, but what are you gonna do? Start passing a bunch of laws and making a big deal out of it? Please. This is just another opportunity for angry people with an ax to grind to spin their little dramas, and in the end folks will keep having sex how they want and you will have no way of knowing about it. Life is strange. Go figure. Democrats are bad."

Oh, and John Lennon came to me in a vision and said that his grave is getting damaged from all the spinning.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #155 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Did the Bush administration hype evidence of WMDs to go to war?

hype, absolutely -- lie, no. Saddam was going down one way or another to make way for this expensive social studies experiment. This is just like taking Al Capone down for cheating on his taxes.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #156 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
AKA "Everybody is bad and nothing is knowable".



AKA "Everybody is bad and nothing is knowable, except the Democrats are the worst of all".

Really. Well if it's that easy to figure out a couple thousand uber-egos internacting, then lay it on me. We are still find things out about Jack Kennedy, for heaven's sake.

No one said what they are doing is right -- in fact, Washington should be an object lesson that political power cannot be wielded without corruption en masse.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #157 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Really. Well if it's that easy to figure out a couple thousand uber-egos internacting, then lay it on me. We are still find things out about Jack Kennedy, for heaven's sake.

No one said what they are doing is right -- in fact, Washington should be an object lesson that political power cannot be wielded without corruption en masse.

Well of course.

And that corporate world? Rotten to the core, way too hard to unravel. This whole "prosecuting CEOs for the wholesale looting of shareholders assets?" Just a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I mean, Ken Lay says one thing, the prosecutor says another...... how is anyone ever to make sense of that mess?

No, better to just lay back and withhold judgment for, um..... ever, and let powerful people do as they will. Because they will do as they will, and there is no way to stop them.

I mean, if there was some mechanism by which there could be a systematic evaluation of the actions of the relevant parties, wherein those actions could be held against some further codified regulation of behavior, or "laws", then it might actually be possible to determine if, in fact, any of the relevant parties were athwart of these so called "laws", and by administrating appropriate sanctions against such individuals it might be possible to administer, oh, what would you call it? " Justice"?

Naw. That would mean knowledge is knowable, which is an obvious partisan attack.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #158 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
hype, absolutely -- lie, no. Saddam was going down one way or another to make way for this expensive social studies experiment. This is just like taking Al Capone down for cheating on his taxes.

You aren't actually saying anything . . . what you are saying here is that, yes, they lied but its ok cause Saddam had it coming.

Open your damn eyes!! Treasonous behavior on the part of a "top Administrative Official" is not mere cat fighting and "well politicians will be politicians". . . that's the most idiotic of dismissals possible! and that's all you've got!
Make note that he who called such an action as outing CIA agents a Treasonous act was G Bush Sr himself. Wipe the faux from your eyes.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #159 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You aren't actually saying anything . . . what you are saying here is that, yes, they lied but its ok cause Saddam had it coming.

Open your damn eyes!! Treasonous behavior on the part of a "top Administrative Official" is not mere cat fighting and "well politicians will be politicians". . . that's the most idiotic of dismissals possible! and that's all you've got!
Make note that he who called such an action as outing CIA agents a Treasonous act was G Bush Sr himself. Wipe the faux from your eyes.

pfflam!! It's called A Grand Jury -- the're working on it. Relax, freaking out about about Rove isn't going to speed this up.

And no on Saddam, he didn't 'disarm', which is technically correct.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #160 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Well of course.

And that corporate world? Rotten to the core, way too hard to unravel. This whole "prosecuting CEOs for the wholesale looting of shareholders assets?" Just a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I mean, Ken Lay says one thing, the prosecutor says another...... how is anyone ever to make sense of that mess?

No, better to just lay back and withhold judgment for, um..... ever, and let powerful people do as they will. Because they will do as they will, and there is no way to stop them.

I mean, if there was some mechanism by which there could be a systematic evaluation of the actions of the relevant parties, wherein those actions could be held against some further codified regulation of behavior, or "laws", then it might actually be possible to determine if, in fact, any of the relevant parties were athwart of these so called "laws", and by administrating appropriate sanctions against such individuals it might be possible to administer, oh, what would you call it? " Justice"?

Naw. That would mean knowledge is knowable, which is an obvious partisan attack.

I hear tell that some coporations actually document the movement of their capital. There actually isn't an accounting system for political chicane, dishonesty, double-dealing, fourberie, fraud, hanky-panky, highbinding, sharp practices, or trickery.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
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