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Novak/Plame - Page 5

post #161 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Open your damn eyes!! Treasonous behavior on the part of a "top Administrative Official" is not mere cat fighting and "well politicians will be politicians". . . that's the most idiotic of dismissals possible! and that's all you've got!
Make note that he who called such an action as outing CIA agents a Treasonous act was G Bush Sr himself. Wipe the faux from your eyes.

You do realize you're arguing with NaplesX lite right? These guys worship Bush and the Rep party while at the same time denying it and weakly trying to seem "objective". Read dmz's posts since the beginning of the thread.

Would they be reacting the same way if Rove were a Democrat?

We all know the answer to that.

"Two senior admin. officials" plus Rove calling at least six reporters.....plus the people who told those "senior admin. officials". That's a lot of people working towards the same goal.
post #162 of 346
Mr. RNC Melman tells T. Russert that, "Rove has been vindicated..." Wow, what a jokester!
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post #163 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by hardhead
Mr. RNC Melman tells T. Russert that, "Rove has been vindicated..." Wow, what a jokester!

Wierdness check:
Quote:
Just four months ago, 36 news organizations confederated to file a friend-of-the-court brief in the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington. At the time, Bush-bashing was (no doubt reluctantly) confined to an unusual backseat. The press had no choice it was time to close ranks around two of its own, namely, the Times's Judith Miller and Time's Matthew Cooper, who were threatened with jail for defying grand jury subpoenas from the special prosecutor.
The media's brief, fairly short and extremely illuminating, is available here. The Times, which is currently spearheading the campaign against Rove and the Bush administration, encouraged its submission. It was joined by a "who's who" of the current Plame stokers, including ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, Newsweek, Reuters America, the Washington Post, the Tribune Company (which publishes the Los Angeles Times and the Baltimore Sun, among other papers), and the White House Correspondents (the organization which represents the White House press corps in its dealings with the executive branch).
The thrust of the brief was that reporters should not be held in contempt or forced to reveal their sources in the Plame investigation. Why? Because, the media organizations confidently asserted, no crime had been committed.

Do we have another Rathergate on our hands?

More from here. (scroll down)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #164 of 346
I think they must be laying the ground work for Vigorous Indignation when the indictments start rolling in.

The Republican smear machine is designed to influence public opinion and the general tone of the punditry. That makes political sense, but it really doesn't have any bearing on the outcome of legal proceedings (except insofar as controlling the political process allows you to keep a heavy foot on what sorts of things actually get investigated, and how independent that investigation turns out to be-- see also 9/11, spurious WOMD data, voting irregularities, etc.).

But once matters have moved on to an actual prosecutor, all the usual slander and misdirection are pretty much beside the point.

If indictments seem to be in the cards, look for a shift in tone away from Joe Wilson's imagined shortcomings to talk of "prosecutorial misconduct" and "partisan witch-hunts" (already in play, of course, but only at the default level). The idea here would be to create a climate in which presidential pardons could be proffered as somehow serving justice (hey, I think my gag reflex finally quit for good!).

The Republican response to the DeLay investigation makes it clear that attacking the prosecutor need not make any sense at all to be taken up with gusto by the ditto heads, but then that's the depressing thing isn't it?

None of it ever has to make any sense any more. It's a Republican attack machine world, we just live in it.
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post #165 of 346
Liar.

WASHINGTON, July 18 - President Bush changed his stance today on his close adviser Karl Rove, stopping well short of promising that anyone in his administration who helped to unmask a C.I.A. officer would be fired.

C.I.A. Inquiry May Hinge on What the Leaker Knew (July 18, 2005) "If someone committed a crime, they will no longer work in my administration," Mr. Bush said in response to a question, after declaring, "I don't know all the facts; I want to know all the facts."

For months, Mr. Bush and his spokesmen have said that anyone involved in the disclosure of the C.I.A. officer's identity would be dismissed. The president's apparent raising of the bar for dismissal today, to specific criminal conduct, comes amid mounting evidence that, at the very least, Mr. Rove provided backhanded confirmation of the C.I.A. officer's identity.

-------

Bob Scheiffer:

Instead, this White House did what it usually does when challenged: It went into attack mode, called charges that the White House had leaked the name ridiculous, and allowed the controversy to boil until a special prosecutor had to be appointed. Now two years and millions of tax dollars later, the president's trusted friend and strategist Karl Rove has emerged as the top suspect, and we're left to wonder: Can anything said from the White House podium be taken at face value, or does the White House just deny automatically anything that reflects badly on it?
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post #166 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
If indictments seem to be in the cards, look for a shift in tone away from Joe Wilson's imagined shortcomings to talk of "prosecutorial misconduct" and "partisan witch-hunts" (already in play, of course, but only at the default level). The idea here would be to create a climate in which presidential pardons could be proffered as somehow serving justice (hey, I think my gag reflex finally quit for good!).

It's a Republican attack machine world, we just live in it.

You said it brother!

The GOP partisans, their water carriers like DMZ, refuse to hold their party accountable. Rather, they join in the rationalizations and embolden their leaders to stay the course regardless of the consequences to our national security. No crime against America is bad enough for these guys. They applaud and cheer from the sidelines, as though America and their party is somehow well served by such shenanigans. It's rather revolting, really.

The Republican party continues to rot from within.

That disconnect can only help hasten their downfall. The big question is how much damage they will inflict on the nation's national security before the American public finally awakens from their slumber and throws these assholes out on their ear.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #167 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Wierdness check:


Do we have another Rathergate on our hands?

More from here. (scroll down)

Sure. To protect the ample back side of one of the most horrifyingly cynical political hatchet men in recent history, it is necessary to attack the entire edifice of the free press in the United States. Maybe we can figure out a way to go after the judiciary while we're at it. Good for you, DMZ. It's so refreshing to hear from a man of character and integrity. Of course, you don't really give a shit what kind of smoking ruin America becomes in pursuit of right wing infallibility, because you're all in on the apocalypse, no?

Last time I checked, what the Times et al may or may not consider a crime doesn't have any bearing on a criminal investigation.
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post #168 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Sure. To protect the ample back side of one of the most horrifyingly cynical political hatchet men in recent history, it is necessary to attack the entire edifice of the free press in the United States. Maybe we can figure out a way to go after the judiciary while we're at it. Good for you, DMZ. It's so refreshing to hear from a man of character and integrity. Of course, you don't really give a shit what kind of smoking ruin America becomes in pursuit of right wing infallibility, because you're all in on the apocalypse, no?

Last time I checked, what the Times et al may or may not consider a crime doesn't have any bearing on a criminal investigation.

How in the world, when 36 news organizations file an amici curie saying there's has been no crime committed, can you spin this the other way?

How do you justify this?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #169 of 346
This is no Memogate. This is Watergate:

". . . Fitzgerald [a Republican], both young (44) and ambitious, has no record of Starr- or Ashcroft-style partisanship (his contempt for the press notwithstanding) or known proclivity for committing career suicide. What's most likely is that Mr. Novak, more of a common coward than the prince of darkness he fashions himself to be, found a way to spill some beans and avoid Judy Miller's fate. That the investigation has dragged on so long anyway is another indication of the expanded reach of the prosecutorial web.

"Apparently this is finally beginning to dawn on Mr. Bush's fiercest defenders and on Mr. Bush himself. Hence, last week's erection of the stonewall manned by the almost poignantly clownish Mr. McClellan, who abruptly rendered inoperative his previous statements that any suspicions about Mr. Rove are "totally ridiculous." The morning after Mr. McClellan went mano a mano with his tormentors in the White House press room - "We've secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters," observed Jon Stewart - the ardently pro-Bush New York Post ran only five paragraphs of a wire-service story on Page 12. That conspicuous burial of what was front-page news beyond Murdochland speaks loudly about the rising anxiety on the right. Since then, White House surrogates have been desperately babbling talking points attacking Joseph Wilson as a partisan and a liar.

These attacks, too, are red herrings. Let me reiterate: This case is not about Joseph Wilson. He is, in Alfred Hitchcock's parlance, a MacGuffin . . . This case is about Iraq, not Niger. The real victims are the American people, not the Wilsons. The real culprit - the big enchilada, to borrow a 1973 John Ehrlichman phrase from the Nixon tapes - is not Mr. Rove but the gang that sent American sons and daughters to war on trumped-up grounds and in so doing diverted finite resources, human and otherwise, from fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. . . . The plot that matters starts a month later, in March, and its omniscient author is Dick Cheney. It was Mr. Cheney (on CNN) who planted the idea that Saddam was "actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time." The vice president went on to repeat this charge in May on "Meet the Press," in three speeches in August and on "Meet the Press" yet again in September. Along the way the frightening word "uranium" was thrown into the mix."

Taken from this article.
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post #170 of 346
Good link Northgate. I agree with most of it.

The history books will not care much about the Wilsons. The big picture is a war that was dreamt by neocons before Bush became President and then started when 9/11 and a campaign of fear-mongering prepared the soil for invasion. I have no idea how Iraq will end, but I sure hope that we remember how we got into this mess for a long time to come.
post #171 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
How in the world, when 36 news organizations file an amici curie saying there's has been no crime committed, can you spin this the other way?

How do you justify this?

Poor DMZ, lost in a postmodern relativist world where there are no intrinsic truths and "winning" depends on who has the better "spin".

I don't have to spin anything because I'm not obliged to clutch at straws to defend the indefensible.

The efforts of news organizations to protect their own doesn't have any bearing on the criminal case at hand.

The self serving remarks of Rove's lawyer don't have any bearing on the criminal case at hand.

Quoting Joe Wilson out of context to make it appear he said something he didn't doesn't have any bearing on the criminal case at hand.

Are you under the impression that immediately linking to each odd little caveat that the right wing can torture out of whatever they can get their hands on somehow bolsters some case you think you're making (other than the reflexive "it's all to complicated to understand, best to look away)?

Doesn't it strike you that the velocity with which these "points" pop up and are subsequently dropped suggests that they arise from the very definition of desperation? Of a coordinated effort to find something, anything that will stick long enough to change the subject?

I can just imagine the sweaty little wingnut bloggers searching for something to turn this into another "Rathergate", as you somewhat plaintively dream of.
And then of course from their lips to your ear, you and a legion of willing swill bearers just like you.

Doesn't it kind of make you feel dirty?
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post #172 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Poor DMZ, lost in a postmodern relativist world where there are no intrinsic truths and "winning" depends on who has the better "spin".

-Ahem-

That should read "a secular postmodern relativist world.."

Optional adjectives include "godless" and "heathen."
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post #173 of 346
What a big stink over nothing. There is nothing there and nothing will come of it. This is no more than the Bush-haters taking a swing at the administration. They will miss. Nothing will come of any of this.
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post #174 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
How in the world, when 36 news organizations file an amici curie saying there's has been no crime committed, can you spin this the other way?

How do you justify this?

The crime in question in your case is whether the reporter's who refused to testify committed a crime.
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post #175 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
What a big stink over nothing. There is nothing there and nothing will come of it. This is no more than the Bush-haters taking a swing at the administration. They will miss. Nothing will come of any of this.

And your reason for thinking this is? It seems pretty real to me.
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post #176 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
What a big stink over nothing. There is nothing there and nothing will come of it. This is no more than the Bush-haters taking a swing at the administration. They will miss. Nothing will come of any of this.

We know. It is important to also realize that even if it wasn't a crime, a significant misdeed was done on behalf of the president's war.
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post #177 of 346
Quote:
The history books will not care much about the Wilsons. The big picture is a war that was dreamt by neocons before Bush became President and then started when 9/11 and a campaign of fear-mongering prepared the soil for invasion. I have no idea how Iraq will end, but I sure hope that we remember how we got into this mess for a long time to come.

Dammit COG, I was gonna post something simular...

If Rove is found to be guilty, and I believe he IS, he HAS to face serious consequences. As a veteran whom took some bad wounds from shrapnel and killed in the name of my country, I want him to hang, if not literally, then figuratively.

I'm not happy with the Democratic party. Especially when two of it's big names, ie, Clinton and Lieberman, are wasting their freaken time over a video game!!!

However, the Republicans are in the drivers seat at the moment. The fact that one of their policy "architects" is on the hot seat for possible TREASON speaks volumes on this administration's "core values"... Pahetic.
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You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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post #178 of 346
e..., I'm glad to see that you are willing to consider the "other" POV.

I was so pissed at Pres. Clinton for all of his BS. Yet he's in the minor leagues compared to what's come out of this White House...
You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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post #179 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
What a big stink over nothing. There is nothing there and nothing will come of it. This is no more than the Bush-haters taking a swing at the administration. They will miss. Nothing will come of any of this.

Now, Moe, put down the Skittles and riddle me this: how do "Bush haters" manage to contrive to have a Republican appointed Republican prosecutor, acting on a referral of criminal wrong doing from our very own Central Intelligence Agency, apparently find enough evidence of same to pursue a lengthy investigation, taking the time along the way to duly impanel a Grand Jury, subpoena the testimony of dozens of players and be instrumental in having a reporter jailed for what amounts to obstruction of justice?

Unless......no! Everybody's a Bush hater? Oh, the humanity!
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post #180 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardhead
e..., I'm glad to see that you are willing to consider the "other" POV.

I was so pissed at Pres. Clinton for all of his BS. Yet he's in the minor leagues compared to what's come out of this White House...

Actually - I started the thread, so you are in my POV, not the other way around
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post #181 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Now, Moe, put down the Skittles and riddle me this: how do "Bush haters" manage to contrive to have a Republican appointed Republican prosecutor, acting on a referral of criminal wrong doing from our very own Central Intelligence Agency, apparently find enough evidence of same to pursue a lengthy investigation, taking the time along the way to duly impanel a Grand Jury, subpoena the testimony of dozens of players and be instrumental in having a reporter jailed for what amounts to obstruction of justice?

Unless......no! Everybody's a Bush hater? Oh, the humanity!

Iffin' yew ain't FER us, then yew's AGIN' us - purty simple, ain't it?
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post #182 of 346
Let the Grand Jury do its work. They will probably find no criminal activity. This is just dirty politics. Part of Rove's job is to deflect and punish those who attack the administration. Dirty and sleezy, yes. Illegal/? Probably not.
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post #183 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Iffin' yew ain't FER us, then yew's AGIN' us - purty simple, ain't it?

If Rove is found to have eaten a baby - then the republican party will start out with - "but somebody else supplied the spices, and they lied about the freshness of the basil!"
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post #184 of 346
remember everyone - blowing a CIA agent's cover is "just dirty politics"

unless of course a Democrat does it - THEN it's treason....

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post #185 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
If Rove is found to have eaten a baby - then the republican party will start out with - "but somebody else supplied the spices, and they lied about the freshness of the basil!"

And he didn't know it was a baby - some liberal told him it was a special type of wingless turkey called an "infant!"
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post #186 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Poor DMZ, lost in a postmodern relativist world where there are no intrinsic truths and "winning" depends on who has the better "spin".

I don't have to spin anything because I'm not obliged to clutch at straws to defend the indefensible.

The efforts of news organizations to protect their own doesn't have any bearing on the criminal case at hand.

The self serving remarks of Rove's lawyer don't have any bearing on the criminal case at hand.

Quoting Joe Wilson out of context to make it appear he said something he didn't doesn't have any bearing on the criminal case at hand.

Are you under the impression that immediately linking to each odd little caveat that the right wing can torture out of whatever they can get their hands on somehow bolsters some case you think you're making (other than the reflexive "it's all to complicated to understand, best to look away)?

Doesn't it strike you that the velocity with which these "points" pop up and are subsequently dropped suggests that they arise from the very definition of desperation? Of a coordinated effort to find something, anything that will stick long enough to change the subject?

I can just imagine the sweaty little wingnut bloggers searching for something to turn this into another "Rathergate", as you somewhat plaintively dream of.
And then of course from their lips to your ear, you and a legion of willing swill bearers just like you.

Doesn't it kind of make you feel dirty?

So there was no crime committed, but there really was? Help me out here. Miller is in Jail for something worth hiding but the same organizations filing this brief wont breathe a word of it in print, nor will they even TRY to mention all of this EXCEPT in the landscape of "Bush lied and zillions died" context.

This thing is getting weirder by the day, and no one is trying to make sense of this. I'm perfectly willing to see anyone who broke the law get their pee-pee's wacked, and that could be anyone, really -- or it could have been a pro-political hit that took common knowledge and spread it around; or a little bait-and-switch, etc.

But addabox, you can't separate yourself from demonizing the administration --- just try to step back and try to run this thing both ways.

please?
**sniff**
for me??

(and yes, if this is rathergate II, or anything along the lines of the "gulag" fiasco, then the pee-pee's that get wacked will have to be the leftist press)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #187 of 346
The left bringing up killing babies! Amazing!

Back to topic. The Democrats and their loyalists (most of the media) know that they have little chance to retake the White House with Rove coordinating the Republican attack. They feel that their only hope is to take Rove out.
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post #188 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The crime in question in your case is whether the reporter's who refused to testify committed a crime.

No

No

and

No.

from the brief:
Quote:
B. There Is Ample Evidence On The Public Record To Cast Considerable Doubt That A Crime Has Been Committed.
The Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 Was Narrowly Drafted To Ensure that Only Specific Actions Under Specific Circumstances Would Support a Finding of Criminality.

Most criminal acts do not pose the statutory questions raised in this case. For crimes such as assault, murder, or robbery, the only unanswered question usually is: Who did it? Some conduct is criminal only if it is furthered by the specific intent and/or knowledge of the perpetrator, such as fraud or income tax evasion. The statute that forms the basis of this investigation requires evidentiary proof far beyond even a specific intent crime: it requires the government to have met certain criteria.
To prove a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, Pub. L. No. 97-200, 1982 U.S.C.C.A.N. (96 Stat. 122) 145 (codified at 50 U.S.C. §§ 421-426 ) (the "Act") (Tab A), the government must establish the following elements:
The United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal a covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States;

The covert agent whose identity was disclosed is an employee of an intelligence agency;
The covert agent whose identity was disclosed has a relationship with such agency that is classified;
At the time of the disclosure, the covert agent whose identity was disclosed was serving outside the United States or had done so within five years of the disclosure;
The person disclosing the identity of that covert agent must be authorized, directly or indirectly, to have access to classified information that identifies the covert agent;
The person disclosing the identity knows that the government is taking affirmative measures to conceal the relationship;
The person disclosing the identity knows that the information so identifies the covert agent;
The disclosure is intentional; and
The identity is disclosed to a person not having authorization to receive such information.5
As a further hurdle to any prosecution, the statute provides for a defense where, prior to disclosure, the "United States had publicly acknowledged or revealed the intelligence relationship" of the covert agent. 50 U.S.C. § 422(a); S. Rep. 97-201, at 23 (1981), reprinted in 1982 U.S.C.C.A.N. 145, 167.

And:
Quote:
At the threshold, an agent whose identity has been revealed must truly be "covert" for there to be a violation of the Act. To the average observer, much less to the professional intelligence operative, Plame was not given the "deep cover" required of a covert agent. See 50 U.S.C. § 426 ("covert agent" defined). She worked at a desk job at CIA headquarters, where she could be seen traveling to and from, and active at, Langley. She had been residing in Washington - not stationed abroad - for a number of years. As discussed below, the CIA failed to take even its usual steps to prevent publication of her name.

And:
Quote:
Moreover, the government may have "publicly acknowledged or revealed" her intelligence relationship prior to publication of Novak's July 14, 2003 column. "The United States has `revealed' an intelligence relationship if it has disclosed information which names, or leads directly to the identification of . . . a covert agent." S. Rep. 97-201, at 23. An article in The Washington Times indicated that Plame's identity was compromised twice prior to Novak's publication.' If this information is accurate - another fact a court should explore - there is an absolute defense to prosecution. See 50 U.S.C. § 422(a).

And:
Quote:
There are sufficient facts on the public record that cast considerable doubt as to whether the CIA took the necessary "affirmative measures" to conceal Plame's identity. Indeed, these facts establish such sloppy tradecraft that, at minimum, the CIA was indifferent to the compromise of her identity.

The following facts are public:
The CIA sent a non-CIA employee, Joseph C. Wilson 4th, on a mission to Niger to determine whether Saddam Hussein had tried to
purchase "uranium yellow cake," an ingredient for making a non-conventional weapon.8
Wilson had not served in Niger for over two decades, and, unlike his supposedly undercover wife, was not an expert in nuclear weapons.9
Wilson was not required to sign a confidentiality agreement about his mission. Wilson was not prevented by the CIA from writing his Op-Ed for The New York Times, an article that not only criticized the Administration, but also detailed his mission and findings."
When columnist Novak contacted the CIA to verify that Plame worked for the Agency, he says that the Agency not only verified her employment but also failed to give him a serious request not to publish her name.12
The CIA's usual procedure when it is concerned that publishing a fact would endanger a covert agent is to have a high ranking official, usually the Director, contact the journalist and ask that information not be published.13
The CIA did not prohibit Plame from making political contributions under the name "Wilson, Valerie E.," facts that are publicly available at the FEC.

And:
Quote:
Novak's column can be viewed as critical of CIA ineptitude: the Agency's response to a request by the State Department and the Vice President's office to verify whether a specific foreign intelligence report was accurate was to have "low level" bureaucrats make the decision to send a non-CIA employee (neither an expert on Niger nor on weapons of mass destruction) on this crucial mission at his wife's suggestion. See also Wilson Op-Ed. Did no one at Langley think that Plame's identity might be compromised if her spouse writes a nationally distributed Op-Ed piece discussing a foreign mission about a volatile political issue that focused on her subject matter expertise?

that's coming from the same media trying to hornswoggle (derservedly or not) Rove for being a bad boy.

Crazy stuff

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #189 of 346
But, it's all just sooo complicated! Its just too much for anyone to understand! There's leaking and covers and background whatsits and books and apparently some kind of a WAR and some people who aren't even elected and oh my god it's so hard! I can't understand it!

God I love this strategy. Now watch the Bush-sucker press try to muddy the waters. Whatshisname had the temerity to try to argue that Novak didn't out Plame, David Corn did! In a piece written AFTER Novak's! You see, Plame wasn't outed until people reported that Novak had outed her! Karl Rove was trying to help reporters! There is no global warming!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #190 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
But, it's all just sooo complicated! Its just too much for anyone to understand! There's leaking and covers and background whatsits and books and apparently some kind of a WAR and some people who aren't even elected and oh my god it's so hard! I can't understand it!

God I love this strategy. Now watch the Bush-sucker press try to muddy the waters. Whatshisname had the temerity to try to argue that Novak didn't out Plame, David Corn did! In a piece written AFTER Novak's! You see, Plame wasn't outed until people reported that Novak had outed her! Karl Rove was trying to help reporters! There is no global warming!

even you midnwinter, must admitt that that brief, considering the source, seems nearly inconceivable -- screen door on a submarine inconceivalbe.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #191 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
even you midnwinter, must admitt that that brief, considering the source, seems nearly inconceivable -- screen door on a submarine inconceivalbe.

That's because several people are lying.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #192 of 346
I don't get why that's so inconceivable dmz. They were trying to defend their people. The same way the Republicans are now trying to defend theirs. That's inconceivable? It's about as inconceivable as a lawyer defending his client, i.e., if it didn't happen it would be inconceivable.
post #193 of 346
Welcome back from your oddly-synchronous-with-terror-bombing travels, Midwinter.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #194 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Welcome back from your oddly-synchronous-with-terror-bombing travels, Midwinter.

Thanks. London was a little terrorism-y for my tastes.

Waitaminute. You tryin' to imply somethin'?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #195 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I don't get why that's so inconceivable dmz. They were trying to defend their people. The same way the Republicans are now trying to defend theirs. That's inconceivable? It's about as inconceivable as a lawyer defending his client, i.e., if it didn't happen it would be inconceivable.

It's not inconceivable and he (?) knows it. His claims about its complexity/nonsensicalness are just part of the Republican machine, which depends upon a) saying it's complex often enough that the plebes pick it up and b) the plebes saying it all the time. And when they just prattle on about how complex it is, people will start to just say "Shit, I can't follow this. Let's watch Friends!"

And then it goes away.

What's so sad is that most of the conservative plebes don't even realize that they are a crucial element of the RNC PR machine.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #196 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I don't get why that's so inconceivable dmz. They were trying to defend their people. The same way the Republicans are now trying to defend theirs. That's inconceivable? It's about as inconceivable as a lawyer defending his client, i.e., if it didn't happen it would be inconceivable.

I dunno, I just expected something different, if Miller or Cooper were leaking names you'd think they'd be getting keel hauled as well in the news, but the coverage is "fixed about" the administration being little political devils, and not all those involved.


weird.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #197 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
So there was no crime committed, but there really was? Help me out here.

We won't know if there is sufficient evidence for indictments until that announcement is made. It is very clear that a covert CIA agent was casually named as part of systematic political payback for telling the truth about one of the Bush administrations WOMD claims. I honestly can't imagine what part of this is unclear to you, at this point.

Quote:
Miller is in Jail for something worth hiding but the same organizations filing this brief wont breathe a word of it in print, nor will they even TRY to mention all of this EXCEPT in the landscape of "Bush lied and zillions died" context.

Miller is in jail for refusing to divulge her sources after a court ordered her to do so. You'd have to ask her why she thinks it's worth it. Most of the reporting I've seen about outing Valerie Plame has been in the typical MSM mold of "he said/she said", not remotely "Bush lied, zillions died". There has been a shocking amount of credulous repetition of Republican talking points (such as the misrepresentation of the relevant statute that it requires one to actually name the agent to be in violation).

Quote:
This thing is getting weirder by the day,

No it's not. Certainly, irrelevant flak is being thrown into the mix all the time, and it's easy to see why.

Quote:
and no one is trying to make sense of this.

Yes they are, most significantly, Fitzgerald.

Quote:
I'm perfectly willing to see anyone who broke the law get their pee-pee's wacked, and that could be anyone, really -- or it could have been a pro-political hit that took common knowledge and spread it around; or a little bait-and-switch, etc.

AKA, I'd like to see justice done, but monkeys can fly and fish are walking and bees get in your head and it's all so crazy, what's the use of even trying?

Quote:
But addabox, you can't separate yourself from demonizing the administration --- just try to step back and try to run this thing both ways.

Some things don't run both ways. That's the great lie of Republican spin land--that the whole world is made of tit-for-tat and every crime is somehow negated by a reciprocal crime from the "other side". AKA "Being non-partisan".

Quote:
please?
**sniff**
for me??

I said no, you sniveling bastard!

Quote:
and yes, if this is rathergate II, or anything along the lines of the "gulag" fiasco, then the pee-pee's that get wacked will have to be the leftist press) [/B]

If leaking the name of a CIA operative for political payback for telling the truth about just one of the many lies that were told in the run-up to this meat-grinder of a pointless "war" somehow becomes a scandal of the "liberal" press, we will be well and truly lost.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #198 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Thanks. London was a little terrorism-y for my tastes.

Waitaminute. You tryin' to imply somethin'?

Oh, heavens no. Just......stay.......on.......line.......for...... .a........few.......more.....seconds....

Got you.

I mean, good to see you!
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #199 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I said no, you sniveling bastard!



touché

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #200 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I dunno, I just expected something different, if Miller or Cooper were leaking names you'd think they'd be getting keel hauled as well in the news, but the coverage is "fixed about" the administration being little political devils, and not all those involved.


weird.

It's weird that the media are allowed to report?
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