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Novak/Plame - Page 7

post #241 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
The rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper, doesn't it?

Where oh where have the apologists gone?

I think one "apologist" said he was going to wait for the GJ to do it's thing before commenting.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #242 of 346
Number of committees created to investigate Hillary Clinton's role in Whitewater: 20

Number of committees created to investigate the outing of a CIA officer: 0

Number of committees proposed to investigate Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald:
1

Rank, exposed, Republican hypocrisy: Priceless!

Quote:
[Sen. Pat Roberts (R-KS) spokeswoman Sarah] Little said the Senate committee would also review the probe of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who has been investigating the Plame case for nearly two years.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #243 of 346
Interesting theory. The good ol' Ollie North trick.

"[...] additional motive for Roberts' congressional hearings about Rove - an opportunity to provide immunity to all parties involved.

The Sentelle/Silberman precedent may return."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #244 of 346
Wow. Stick a fork in whoever leaked Plame's ID to Novak - they're done. WaPost has, among other bits, an interview with a former CIA officer who says:
A. Valerie Plame was, indeed, undercover and her identity protected
B. The CIA warned Novak as explicitly as possible not to publish her name
Quote:
Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

Seems like this is basically the CIA declaring war on the Bush Administration. About time - they've been pushed onto one too many swords. Also interesting is that Fitzgerald's investigation was broad enough to cover how the "questionable" NIger intelligence was used by the White House, and how blame for it was later assigned, wrongly, to the CIA. This rabbit hole might go down a ways...
post #245 of 346
Bush just gave his traitors a raise, which includes Rove, Hadley, and Scooter Libby.

Rewarding failure, yet again.

Link
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #246 of 346
We have an update: The little bird in Miller's ear was Scooter

From the NYT:

"That source was I. Lewis Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, according to people who have been officially briefed on the case. Ms. Miller met with Mr. Libby on July 8, 2003, and talked with him by telephone later that week, they said."

http://nytimes.com/2005/09/30/politi...rtner=homepage
post #247 of 346
The possibility exists that Delay, Frist, Rove, and Libby could all be under indictment at the same time.

The mind boggles....
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post #248 of 346
Not to mention big chucks of the Ohio and Kentucky party apparatus.

I think at some point Republicans just decided they would never be out of power again and would never have to worry about being scrutinized.

Either that, or, pace some posters here, they really do believe that this is how politics is done and are actually surprised that simply auctioning off access and influence could be considered "illegal".
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #249 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Not to mention big chucks of the Ohio and Kentucky party apparatus.

I think at some point Republicans just decided they would never be out of power again and would never have to worry about being scrutinized.

Either that, or, pace some posters here, they really do believe that this is how politics is done and are actually surprised that simply auctioning off access and influence could be considered "illegal".

Ding-Ding-Ding.
"Hey, everyone does it, what's the big deal?"

Meanwhile, I'm still looking for elected Democrats under investigation and/or indictment.
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post #250 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
The possibility exists that Delay, Frist, Rove, and Libby could all be under indictment at the same time.

The mind boggles....

Doesn't this exonerate Rove though? Or is he being indicted for something else? I'm sure I lost track. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
post #251 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
Doesn't this exonerate Rove though? Or is he being indicted for something else? I'm sure I lost track. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

The leak went out to three reporters - Rove leaked to at least one, Libby to another, and I'm not sure who leaked to the third.
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post #252 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The leak went out to three reporters - Rove leaked to at least one, Libby to another, and I'm not sure who leaked to the third.

Sounds all rather coordinated doesn't it? Like an organized smear campaign-no? I wonder if they'll ever be able to prove it to a jury.
post #253 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
I wonder if they'll ever be able to prove it to a jury.

If Rove is allowed to defend himself he'll swing them enough to have them arrest Bill Clinton and put him in maximum security lockup for 10 years.

Logic? Truth? Who needs it?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #254 of 346
I can't believe this topic hasn't been brought back to life since it's last post in September. This thing's coming to a head. Maybe I should just start a new topic: Cheney's going DOWN.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney...ting_1018.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101701888.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar....htm?track=rss

Aren't there going to be some indictments announced later today?
post #255 of 346
Wait--this means there's a pretty good chance that Apple will be announcing new pro hardware and some kind of new pro software on the same day that half the Bush administration gets indicted.....

I.......I think I need to sit down...............
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #256 of 346
So much for bringing integrity to the White House. Oh wait, it was indictment instead!
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #257 of 346
That was positively Stewart-ian
post #258 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Akumulator
I can't believe this topic hasn't been brought back to life since it's last post in September. This thing's coming to a head. Maybe I should just start a new topic: Cheney's going DOWN.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney...ting_1018.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101701888.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar....htm?track=rss

Aren't there going to be some indictments announced later today?

I would suggest you are watching the same media echo chamber that gave us 10,000 dead and baby raping in New Orlean.

Your USNews link is speculation about the speculation in the Washington Post link.

I'm still betting this goes no where.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #259 of 346
Your betting wrong. Wilson is planning to bring a civil suit against Bush and Cheney.
post #260 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by mrtwistor
Your betting wrong. Wilson is planning to bring a civil suit against Bush and Cheney.

Tell her I said hi.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #261 of 346
I posted this in another thread but it seems more relevant here:
Quote:
Where's the integrity?

Quote:
Bush Should Live Up to 2000 Pledge:
[. . . ] Bush told voters at a campaign event in Pittsburgh that his administration would "ask not only what is legal but what is right, not what the lawyers allow but what the public deserves."

[. . .] back in June 2004 the president said he'd fire anyone involved in the leak of Plame's name. But Bush seemed to lower the standard this summer -- when it became clear that Rove and Libby did in fact have conversations with reporters about Plame -- saying only that if someone "committed a crime, they will no longer work in my administration."

Again... where's the integrity?
post #262 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by mrtwistor
Your betting wrong. Wilson is planning to bring a civil suit against Bush and Cheney.

What basis is he bring a civil action? Is he doing it in federal or state court?
post #263 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
What basis is he bring a civil action? Is he doing it in federal or state court?

Here's a start
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #264 of 346
Here is another article on the subject:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...obe/index.html
post #265 of 346
That would be a last option to get these criminals into a court room. But as a civil lawsuit goes I'm not sure you can sue someone for telling the truth.
post #266 of 346
The more plausible suit would be against Novak. At the very least he'd have to be a codefendant.
post #267 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
That would be a last option to get these criminals into a court room. But as a civil lawsuit goes I'm not sure you can sue someone for telling the truth.

Careful Scott, you're almost making yourself obvious.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #268 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
That would be a last option to get these criminals into a court room. But as a civil lawsuit goes I'm not sure you can sue someone for telling the truth.

Even, say, if they are truthful when they reveal company secrets to a competetor?

There are plenty of cases where you are not legally allowed to tell the truth. In this case, telling the truth was treason - because it gave US government secrets to our enemies, and revealed CIA undercover operatives (wasting years of effort and money).
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post #269 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
The more plausible suit would be against Novak. At the very least he'd have to be a codefendant.

Its almost funny he started this mess with his partison mouth I wonder who the guilty party is? Its why this Partison thing from both parties make me sick ,Party before Country. We could just end all this nonsense and waste if we passed a new law. NO MORE PARTIES ! America would be a better place. Im certain of that. Heck the $$$ these two throw away fighting each other could feed every person in the U.S and provide medical care for everyone instead we get commercials,political wars,committees,...spin, more spin.


Lets outlaw Both Parties.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #270 of 346
Byron York has an interesting piece on NRO, the best quote being:

Quote:
...it appears that if Fitzgerald is indeed moving toward indicting anyone, he might well choose to base the charges on allegations of obstruction of justice or the making of false statements, either to Fitzgerald's investigators or to the grand jury. "At the end of the day," says the former intelligence official, "this could end up being a situation where there wasn't a crime until there was an investigation."

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #271 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Byron York has an interesting piece on NRO, the best quote being:

Interesting. And sounds mighty, mighty familiar.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #272 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Interesting. And sounds mighty, mighty familiar.

All we are missing is a blue dress.

Death by litigation.

Edit:

I'm 'doing' a Texas Politics book this week -- here's a choice quote from Chapter 1, Page 1:

Quote:
Simply put, politics is the process of seeking or maintaining power.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #273 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I think one "apologist" said he was going to wait for the GJ to do it's thing before commenting.

I remember him. He was the guy who told us he wasn´t gonna comment after having already given us the Republican fundie BS talking points for a couple of pages. Brilliant.
post #274 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
All we are missing is a blue dress.

Death by litigation.

Edit:

I'm 'doing' a Texas Politics book this week -- here's a choice quote from Chapter 1, Page 1:

Quote:
Simply put, politics is the process of seeking or maintaining power.


I can't decide whether or not I agree with or am repulsed by that definition of politics.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #275 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I can't decide whether or not I agree with or am repulsed by that definition of politics.

Yes, but it is a Texas Politics text.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #276 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I can't decide whether or not I agree with or am repulsed by that definition of politics.

Why would you be repulsed? If you are going into politics, then obviously you want to make a change in the world. Power is the ability to change the world.

The only alternatives that I can see are:

"Politics is the persuit of a sweet slacker government job with no well defined responsibilities"

or:

"Politics is the persuit of fame and book deals"
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post #277 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Why would you be repulsed? If you are going into politics, then obviously you want to make a change in the world. Power is the ability to change the world.

The only alternatives that I can see are:

"Politics is the persuit of a sweet slacker government job with no well defined responsibilities"

or:

"Politics is the persuit of fame and book deals"

I would be repulsed because I tend to think of politics in an Orwellian sense, broadly, as "A vision of the way the world ought to be."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #278 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I would be repulsed because I tend to think of politics in an Orwellian sense, broadly, as "A vision of the way the world ought to be."

Visions are useless without the power to put them into practice. I know plenty of people with vison of the way the world ought to be, but few of those people are politicians.
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post #279 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Visions are useless without the power to put them into practice. I know plenty of people with vison of the way the world ought to be, but few of those people are politicians.

But you're confusing the point. Politics, I would argue, is that vision itself. Enacting that vision is another thing.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #280 of 346
I would add that there are any number of ways at looking at "power", but perhaps a useful one is looking at from where it derives.

There are those that seek personal power, those that derive power from the ideas they wish to see made manifest, the power of a given system (say, the rule of law) and popular power given embodiment by the forwarding of a particular individual or individuals, to name a few.

To reduce "politics" to merely vainglory (however frequently that seems to be the case) takes no note of the many men and women who serve and represent power of a different kind.

In fact, that attitude seems to me to be well on the way to denying that power of any other kind even truly exists, which is simply a very limiting species of cynicism.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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