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Novak/Plame - Page 8

post #281 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I would be repulsed because I tend to think of politics in an Orwellian sense, broadly, as "A vision of the way the world ought to be."

That's good -- as far as it goes, but we are the government. Without at least a few overarching principles informing the collective judgement, I don't see any avenue to "a vision" except maybe through an oligarchy of sorts; but even then, you will still need those principles.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #282 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
That's good -- as far as it goes, but we are the government. Without at least a few overarching principles informing the collective judgement, I don't see any avenue to "a vision" except maybe through an oligarchy of sorts; but even then, you will still need those principles.

Please clarify pronouns, relative and otherwise.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #283 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Please clarify pronouns, relative and otherwise.

hmmmmm.......let 'vision' and 'principle' be more or less correlative.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #284 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
hmmmmm.......let 'vision' and 'principle' be more or less correlative.

Those aren't pronouns. Them's nouns.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #285 of 346
Looks like the only thing they can charge Rove with is covering his tracks.

Cover-Up Issue Is Seen as Focus in Leak Inquiry

Obviously we need tougher laws for this kind of thing.
post #286 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Those aren't pronouns. Them's nouns.

Yes, Mr. Smartypants. I was just cutting to the chase.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #287 of 346
post #288 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
Looks like the only thing they can charge Rove with is covering his tracks.

That's a pretty common way of catching scumbags, though, isn't it Scott? You don't get them for what you know they did because they aren't dumb, they cover their ass sufficiently and work the complexities and loopholes enough to take care of the big attacks.

But it's easy to tell when someone is dirty and they get so arrogant that they think themselves invinceable, that's when they get sloppy and forget to cover every angle.

It's how they got Capone, Scott, this is no different.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #289 of 346
I read a commentary the other day that noted a rumor that Rove thinks he's smarter than Fitz. The commentator remarked "Only an idiot thinks he can outsmart a prosecutor."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #290 of 346
The general outlines of what we know about the case suggest that the participants pretty much figured they could get away with anything (probably because they had, for so long).

I get the feeling that a lot of the hurt that's coming down springs directly from causally bullshitting federal investigators way back when, when they all figured nothing would come of it and the same old misdirection would work like it always did.

Bush, with his "boy, we sure wish we could punish them bad men, but how likely is it we'll ever know who they are" line, must have been suppressing a giggle at the thought of how far ahead of the game he and his cronies were.

But that's always the way with the hubris of power. Eventually, you start believing that everybody's stupid but you, and that's when the trouble starts.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #291 of 346
NY Times reports that it goes all the way to Cheney
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #292 of 346
Look at this timeline. This whole thing is going to end up a huge he said/she said.
post #293 of 346
Here's the actual text of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982

We don't know how people in the White House or VP office learned of Plame's identity. Cheney may have told Libby but how did Cheney know? If Cheney found out from reading a classified report then he's guilty under part a) or b) The trick is that Cheney would have to know that Plame was undercover, not just working for the CIA. The trick of this law is that the source has to be taking positive action to reveal an undercover agent using information they had access to that had been classified. So, for example, if Cheney learned from Tenent via word of mouth then it may not count. Tenent may be guilty though.

Part c is hard to prove I'd gather.

So basically we need to know who the original source is and how he found out about it.

Novak is off the hook via section 422.b.1

It seems the only hope is the obstruction stuff or the espionage stuff.
post #294 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by fng
Here's the actual text of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982

We don't know how people in the White House or VP office learned of Plame's identity. Cheney may have told Libby but how did Cheney know? If Cheney found out from reading a classified report then he's guilty under part a) or b) The trick is that Cheney would have to know that Plame was undercover, not just working for the CIA. The trick of this law is that the source has to be taking positive action to reveal an undercover agent using information they had access to that had been classified. So, for example, if Cheney learned from Tenent via word of mouth then it may not count. Tenent may be guilty though.

Part c is hard to prove I'd gather.

So basically we need to know who the original source is and how he found out about it.

Novak is off the hook via section 422.b.1

It seems the only hope is the obstruction stuff or the espionage stuff.

Perjury and obstruction of justice are not trivial charges. It wouldn't be the first time that the cover-up ended up being the larger problem for the accused.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #295 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Perjury and obstruction of justice are not trivial charges. It wouldn't be the first time that the cover-up ended up being the larger problem for the accused.

Yea. Clinton ... Stewart ... We can hope to see Rove or Cheney in jail some day but figure on this. It wont go to trial anytime soon and ... 2008 is pardon season.
post #296 of 346
And the indictment goes to... <waits for 80 page document in envelope>
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #297 of 346
When all is said and done, nothing will come of this.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #298 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
When all is said and done, nothing will come of this.

Republicans can lie and cheat, and nothing will come of it.

Decmocrats can lie and screw, and they get impeached and disbarred?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #299 of 346
Libby indicted. Libby resigns.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #300 of 346
One down... how many more to go? Cheney has huge problems, but he most likely will remain intact.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #301 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Libby indicted. Libby resigns.

And probably "Libby gets pardoned". I mean, how much lower can Bush's approval rating go? I don't think that it will budge if he pardons Libby (& Rove, & Cheney, &...)
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #302 of 346
You guys should goto thesmokinggun.com and read the indictment.

It would appear there was no crime until there was an investigation.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1028051plame1.html

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #303 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You guys should goto thesmokinggun.com and read the indictment.

It would appear there was no crime until there was an investigation.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1028051plame1.html

So? Does that mean he really didn't lie under oath or obstruct the investigation?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #304 of 346
Why bother with smoking gun when Fitzgerald has a website:

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/

Lots of juicy details in the press release. Libby was definitely screwing around.

And to think that it was just two years ago that we were explaining to you guys who was involved. Your denial was so cute.

Looks like Rove could still get charged
Quote:
Rove's attorney Robert Luskin issued a statement Friday that Fitzgerald "has advised Mr. Rove that he has made no decision about whether or not to bring charges."
post #305 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
It would appear there was no crime until there was an investigation.

Could you be more specific?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #306 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You guys should goto thesmokinggun.com and read the indictment.

It would appear there was no crime until there was an investigation.

I'm guessing you feel bad for Clinton then, who was in exactly that situation?

Not even the most liberal liberal tried that defence.
meh
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meh
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post #307 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
So? Does that mean he really didn't lie under oath or obstruct the investigation?

No, it looks like he may have; both Miller and Cooper [apparently -- they're not quoted] say otherwise.

Make sure you read the indictment.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #308 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
I'm guessing you feel bad for Clinton then, who was in exactly that situation?

Not even the most liberal liberal tried that defence.

If I remember correctly, the liberal defense went something like this:

1) God, this is soooo stupid
2) Waitaminute, he's in trouble for lying about an affair during an investigation into a land dael?
3) Oh man, he really shouldn't have pointed his finger on TV like that.
4) Yeah. He lied. Who wouldn't?
5) Impeachment? Man, you guys are taking this too far!
6) Hrm. You guys really, really looked bad doing that, did you?
7) Hrm. Clinton's approval ratings are up!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #309 of 346
Restoring honor and dignity to the White House?

How about a secret military tribunal?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #310 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Could you be more specific?

This was supposed to be about who leaked Plame -- it's been two years. All the SP gives us is that Libby has apparently tried to lie about were he found out Plame's identity -- we still don't have any guidance on who leaked it, or if the leaker had the intent of outing a covert agent, which is key.


May be the press conference will shed some light on this.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #311 of 346
I found this post interesting...

CRIMINALIZING CONSERVATIVES. We're presumably about to witness a long series of accusations and counter-accusations of hypocrisy over the question of whether or not perjury is a serious crime. Jon Chait provides the handy talking points every good liberal will want to refer to:

"It's certainly true that not even Karl Rove deserves to go to prison for accidental or inconsequential misstatements. But, if Rove didn't do anything illegal in the first place, then why would he obstruct justice or perjure himself in some substantive way? Clinton's motive for lying was perfectly clear: He wanted to avoid the personal and political embarrassment of confessing his perfectly legal affair with Monica Lewinsky. Indeed, a whole strand of Starr's investigation was set up in order to trap Clinton into lying under oath about his sex life. What motive would Bush's men have to lie except to thwart the prosecution?

"The conservatives who crusaded for impeachment, on the other hand, don't want to equate Clinton's perjury with the potential perjury of Bush's aides. They want to argue that the two are very, very different things and that the contrast redounds to the benefit of this administration. Unfortunately for them, it's not immediately obvious why lying about sex is worse than lying about the exposure of a CIA operative. A battalion of conservative intellectuals have thrown themselves heroically into this logical breach...

"Another Kristol editorial rages against prosecutors, including--but by no means limited to--Fitzgerald, who are "criminalizing conservatives." This charge may be insane, but--unlike the standard Republican claim that Democrats are "criminalizing politics"--at least it's not hypocritical. Whatever prosecutorial excesses Starr engaged in, "criminalizing conservatives" was not one of them. This could be the principle the right rallies behind during the Plame scandal: No criminalizing conservatives! The beauty of this principle is that it holds up no matter what. Even if their man is found to have lied about sex with interns."

Tom DeLay picks up the new lingo. This is a truly impressive principle to stand on. If a person is a conservative, and charged with a crime, the charger is criminalizing conservatives, which is wrong. Conversely, if a person is a liberal, you can do whatever you want to him.

--Matthew Yglesias
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #312 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This was supposed to be about who leaked Plame -- it's been two years. All the SP gives us is that Libby has apparently tried to lie about were he found out Plame's identity -- we still don't have any guidance on who leaked it, or if the leaker had the intent of outing a covert agent, which is key.


May be the press conference will shed some light on this.

It's obvious the Libby learned about Plame from Big Time.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #313 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
we still don't have any guidance on who leaked it, or if the leaker had the intent of outing a covert agent

Read the press release. We certainly have "guidance." We still don't have even half of the details considering the Rove half isn't public, but it's abundantly clear that Libby has loose lips.

update- Fitzgerald: libby was first individual in chain detailed in the indictment to release the information outside of government.

Remember, however, that the investigation is ongoing.
post #314 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Read the press release. We certainly have "guidance." We still don't have even half of the details considering the Rove half isn't public, but it's abundantly clear that Libby has loose lips.

update- Fitzgerald: libby was first individual to release the information outside of government.

I'm listening to that...interesting...the sports analogy was probably the best synopsis of this -- that they have to prove the pitcher's intent, whether they wanted to out the Agent knowingly or "just pass it under his chin".

Interesting.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #315 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This was supposed to be about who leaked Plame -- it's been two years. All the SP gives us is that Libby has apparently tried to lie about were he found out Plame's identity -- we still don't have any guidance on who leaked it, or if the leaker had the intent of outing a covert agent, which is key.


May be the press conference will shed some light on this.

From page 5 of the Indictment:
Quote:
On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilsons wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA.

Cheney (among other people perhaps) told Libby. Libby told Miller and Cooper.

Quote:
On or about July 10 or July 11, 2003, LIBBY spoke to a senior official in the White House (Official A) who advised LIBBY of a conversation Official A had earlier that week with columnist Robert Novak in which Wilsons wife was discussed as a CIA employee involved in Wilsons trip. LIBBY was advised by Official A that Novak would be writing a story about Wilsons wife.

"Official A" (Rove??) told Novak.

Novak seems to have escaped indictment so far... (perhaps by turning state's evidence?)

Rove's lawyers have been told their client is under continuing investigation.

Intent is pretty transparently 'political revenge on Wilson, for calling the administration's case "inflated and based on flat-out lies", specifically with regard to the Yellowcake allegations.' Dirty tricks politics at the expense of possibly compromising national security.

Libby was one of the ones responsible for banging the Iraq War drum in the first place. He's in the original cheerleading team of the PNAC, and drafted exaggerated claims for Powell to tell the UN. (Powell replied "This is bullshit. I'm not reading this.")
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #316 of 346
Bush about Libby: 911, 911, 911!!!!!!!!

Apparently even the squirrels are leaving the boat (1:12 into it)
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #317 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Bush about Libby: 911, 911, 911!!!!!!!!

Apparently even the squirrels are leaving the boat (1:12 into it)

HAHAHAHA!!!

And I just showed that to my wife, and she said "How did he get a job at Duke?"

heh
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #318 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Bush about Libby: 911, 911, 911!!!!!!!!

Apparently even the squirrels are leaving the boat (1:12 into it)

Perhaps he's going to nominate the squirrel for Supreme Court?
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #319 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb
Perhaps he's going to nominate the squirrel for Supreme Court?

That might have been less surprising that the Miers nomination.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #320 of 346
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb
Perhaps he's going to nominate the squirrel for Supreme Court?


Might work. A "Being There" sort of thing:

"Mr. Squirrel, where do you stand on Rove v. Wade?"

"Nuts must be gathered for the winter months. Many, many nuts".

"Thank you for that forthright answer, sir".
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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