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Holloway Case

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
What is going on in Aruba? Holloway has been missing for over a month and is presumed dead, but there is little or no real information about what happened to her. Aruba has put several men in jail without charge, periodically freeing and re-arresting them. There is no body and no one seems to be talking. Strange no one has cracked with a story yet.

Aside: I was really shocked at the lack of outrage from the progressives when two black men were arrested and held with no charge and seemingly no reason. Can you imagine the outcry if that occurred in a highly publicized case in the United States?

Back to topic. What do you guys think happened down there?
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post #2 of 31
I fear the worst.
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post #3 of 31
I bet the last arrested boy left her on the beach, exactly as they said.

They probably had sex, and she wanted to go swimming. He went home and she got eaten by a shark.

I don't see any reason to suspect foul play. There is no evidence. The boy made up a story because that is what teenage boys do when they are afraid of getting in trouble.

The parents of the girl want justice, of course, but with the lack of information that may be impossible. Imagine if she was eaten by a shark, and then the boy went to jail anyway to satisfy public opinion?

Remeber the runaway bride, and all the people presuming that her feance killed her?
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post #4 of 31
Thread Starter 
I suspect about the same e1618978 and it is important that noone get railroaded to satisfy public opinion.
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post #5 of 31
Who cares?

With all due respect to her family, friends, and any family and friends of fellow missing persons, this case does not merit national media coverage. It belongs on the pages of the local newspaper or on the local nightly television news. And the "shock" the thread starter apparently feels is misplaced. Look at it this way: the media is covering yet another story about a pretty white woman. Others include Laci Peterson, Elizabeth Smart, Lori Hacking, Chandra Levy, JonBenet Ramsey, and even Jessica Lynch. Excepting her family and friends once again, there are far more important national issues deserving airtime than this.
post #6 of 31
Absolutely true. No one really cares when the ugly, the old, or the racially challenged people disappear.

I can see interest in these stories once in a while, but for some of America it's like a hobby. I find it nauseating that people want to know every event in Michale Jackson's or Tom Cruise's life. It's like being a Peeping Tom. I'm not talking about the posters here, just in general.

NEWS should be defined as the information you need to understand the world around you locally and globally and where it's heading. Based on that, we know there's always been murderers and there's nothing "new" about it we really need to know.
post #7 of 31
I have no idea what happened to her and frankly I'm nonplussed either way. But I do think that while it is possible that she was killed by a shark, Occam's Razor still carries the day. It seems a little odd to peg shark attack as the suggested cause of death when it is a zillion times more likely that if she went out into the ocean and something happened that it would be a simply drowning rather than a shark attack. This would be especially true if she were drinking as that obviously increases the risk of drowning.
post #8 of 31
Thread Starter 
Ah, not the time for it.

Best

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post #9 of 31
Quote:
the media is covering yet another story about a pretty white woman.

As the parent in charge of 4 beautiful white girls, I am glad for the racist press. 8)
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post #10 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
As the parent in charge of 4 beautiful white girls, I am glad for the racist press. 8)

racist press or not may you never have to confront anything as horrible as this. I do agree with the sentiment that we tend to focus too much on a single case that needs to run it's course without the world looking in and dissecting every moment. There are other newsworthy items that shouldn't be overlooked. The Holloway case is unique..I don't think I've ever seen this happen before. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Holloway family.
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post #11 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
racist press or not may you never have to confront anything as horrible as this. I do agree with the sentiment that we tend to focus too much on a single case that needs to run it's course without the world looking in and dissecting every moment. There are other newsworthy items that shouldn't be overlooked. The Holloway case is unique..I don't think I've ever seen this happen before. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Holloway family.

The reason that this is important, is not because of the individuals involved.

American tourists need to be safe in foreign vacation spots. If the press blows each murder up to a big thing, then the foreign governments that rely on tourist dollars will make damn sure than no American tourist is killed in their country.
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post #12 of 31
Yes but Germany didn't hang the US out to blow in the wind when a touring German couple were murdered in Florida. The Holloway case is different in that we simply do not know what happened to Natalee and people are eager to find out.

I have no problem with that but the US press tends to take things a bit too far. They tend to keep reporting even though they have no new information. Remember Elizabeth Smart? Eventually the answer will come but right now Aruba is under intense pressure and it sounds like potential civil rights violations are happening. America needs to back off and work with the Aruba law enforcement without cutting their balls off publically.
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post #13 of 31
Quote:
Yes but Germany didn't hang the US out to blow in the wind when a touring German couple were murdered in Florida.

Two murders in a country of 300 million is a lot less significant than one murder in a country of 100 thousand.
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post #14 of 31
Murder is never insignificant. For each one there are dozens of grieving people. Although you highlight exactly why the Holloway case is getting 'round the clock attention. We've always assigned more importance to some, giving them a higher value thus when a high value commodity is taken we lament more openly and vociferously.

I don't agree but at the least we should be reporting news and not fueling the fire and preventing Aruba from handling the case effectively.
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post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Murder is never insignificant. For each one there are dozens of grieving people. Although you highlight exactly why the Holloway case is getting 'round the clock attention. We've always assigned more importance to some, giving them a higher value thus when a high value commodity is taken we lament more openly and vociferously.

I don't agree but at the least we should be reporting news and not fueling the fire and preventing Aruba from handling the case effectively.

Of course - but I said "less significant", not insignificant. Personal tragedy is never insignificant to the people involved, but this whole sub-thread is about weather the aruba alleged-murder should be significant enough for news or not.
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post #16 of 31
sorry about that. I hate when people put words in my mouth. Apologies.
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post #17 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Of course - but I said "less significant", not insignificant. Personal tragedy is never insignificant to the people involved, but this whole sub-thread is about weather the aruba alleged-murder should be significant enough for news or not.

Well, people may disagree, but there should be no debate about whether the Holloway case is newsworthy. It clearly isn't. Unlike the cable news narrative, there really is no national epidemic of missing pretty white women. And I don't think our nation needs to worry about the safety of middle class pretty white chicks on vacation in relatively safe countries when perhaps millions live in unsafe abject poverty here in our own country. No comparison.
post #18 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Well, people may disagree, but there should be no debate about whether the Holloway case is newsworthy. It clearly isn't. Unlike the cable news narrative, there really is no national epidemic of missing pretty white women. And I don't think our nation needs to worry about the safety of middle class pretty white chicks on vacation in relatively safe countries when perhaps millions live in unsafe abject poverty here in our own country. No comparison.

I will give you a personal anicdote to show you why it is important to broadcast this case to the news media.

I visited my brother in Palau a few years ago. Palau is a small tropical island south of Indonesia in Micronesia.

A year or so before I was there, a korean man fell off of a waterfall on a tour, and the korean man's son did not know what to do - the tour continued on, and the dead body was left there to rot. The son did not want to leave his dead father, but did not have the resources to get the dead body out. My brother went in with a few others and helped out with the situation.

Also on the same island - a boat driver chartered his boat out to a pair of divers. The weather got a bit rough, and the boat driver went home without telling anyone that the divers were stranded. The divers died, and no legal action was taken against the boat owner, since he was a native Palauian.

These kinds of things happen all the time in strange vacation spots. If the flow of tourist money to Palau suffered a huge hit every time some tourist was killed needlessly, they would make things a good deal safer.
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post #19 of 31
The complete lack of proportion between which stories are covered how much, if at all, and the degree of real importance of those stories, is supposedly related to ratings. "We", the media moguls tell us, apparently want all of this Jackson/Halloway/Runaway Bride shit, and we wouldn't tune in in sufficiently profitable numbers for "serious" news.

I wonder how true this is. I do realize that the majority low-attention-span TV audience isn't going to sit still for dry PBS-style news shows, but I still have to wonder if someone couldn't put together a slickly-packaged 30-60 minute primetime newscast which would work at making the important stuff interesting rather than treating the merely titillating stuff as if it were important.
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post #20 of 31
You know ShawnJ, this is the first time I think I've ever agreed with you. If I see one more kidnapping story on some white girl I think I'm going to toss my TV out the window. Everone is talking about what happened to Natelee Holloway and frankly not only do I not know, I DON'T CARE! The girl should've taken her ass back to the hotel instead of going out with a guy she barely knew. If she would've done that we wouldn't be hearing about her today. I guess if your any other color than white and/or a guy you aren't worthy of media coverage like this.
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post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Well, people may disagree, but there should be no debate about whether the Holloway case is newsworthy. It clearly isn't. Unlike the cable news narrative, there really is no national epidemic of missing pretty white women. And I don't think our nation needs to worry about the safety of middle class pretty white chicks on vacation in relatively safe countries when perhaps millions live in unsafe abject poverty here in our own country. No comparison.

I think that I made a valid argument - but you don't address it, and re-state your position. weak.
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post #22 of 31
Quote:
We've always assigned more importance to some, giving them a higher value thus when a high value commodity is taken we lament more openly and vociferously.

Please explain what you mean by "we've always assigned more importance to some." Who is this "some"?

Quote:
Of course - but I said "less significant", not insignificant. Personal tragedy is never insignificant to the people involved, but this whole sub-thread is about weather the aruba alleged-murder should be significant enough for news or not.

I agree e# but don't you think ther are much more important things to report on right now?
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post #23 of 31
Quote:
I agree e# but don't you think ther are much more important things to report on right now? [/B]

Since this case involves the safety of millions of American tourists in foreign lands, I could make the argument that this is even more important than the recent London bombings.

Note to londoners - please do not be offended, I am using this as an example only.
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post #24 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Since this case involves the safety of millions of American tourists in foreign lands, I could make the argument that this is even more important than the recent London bombings.

Note to londoners - please do not be offended, I am using this as an example only.

What?! Are you serious?! What happened to this girl happened because of her own stupidity and lack of foresight. Why didn't she go back to her hotel instead of with two guys that she barely even knew? You think if I go abroad I'm going to be worried about being kidnapped? No because first off I'm a guy (i know that doesn't make you invincible but guys are more apt to attack girls because they are perceived to be weaker) and second even if I was a girl I would have the sense to take my ass home when its 2 in the morning.
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post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
What?! Are you serious?! What happened to this girl happened because of her own stupidity and lack of foresight. Why didn't she go back to her hotel instead of with two guys that she barely even knew? You think if I go abroad I'm going to be worried about being kidnapped? No because first off I'm a guy (i know that doesn't make you invincible but guys are more apt to attack girls because they are perceived to be weaker) and second even if I was a girl I would have the sense to take my ass home when its 2 in the morning.

I'll admit, it wouldn't have been an entirely serious argument. But this case is more important than you people are letting on.

American tourists should be safe under all conditions in these tropical paradises, otherwise it will deter business.
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post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I'll admit, it wouldn't have been an entirely serious argument. But this case is more important than you people are letting on.

American tourists should be safe under all conditions in these tropical paradises, otherwise it will deter business.

Tourists should be safe under all conditions no matter where they are, whether it's a tropical paradise or Manhatten.

Likelihood = low.
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post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Tourists should be safe under all conditions no matter where they are, whether it's a tropical paradise or Manhatten.

Likelihood = low.

The difference is that people who are victims of crime in manhatten, at least can rely on a competant and non-corrupt law enforcement and judical system.

You can't nessessarily know that in Aruba - they have a much higher bar to jump, because their systems have not yet proved themselves to be of the same calibur.
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post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The difference is that people who are victims of crime in manhatten, at least can rely on a competant and non-corrupt law enforcement and judical system.

You can't nessessarily know that in Aruba - they have a much higher bar to jump, because their systems have not yet proved themselves to be of the same calibur.

In your opinion.

I don't have the time right now to find a list of faulty justice in North America. I concede that it may be possible that the Dutch system of law, which is upheld in Aruba, may not be of the same standard as that executed in North America (and Manhatten, specifically).

I don't think either of us are able to come to some quantitative, objective conclusion on that. You can't really compare the two, as they are based on different fundamentals.

There was a decent article on the Fox News website (here) which made some good points which might nudge you towards believing that the system employed in Aruba might actually be better than the US system in places.

From the article:

Quote:
There are indications that Dutch law, at least as it concerns the detention and questioning of suspects in criminal cases, is unexpectedly more robust than U.S. law. Joran van der Sloot, who in recent days looks to be the chief suspect in Holloway's disappearance, has been held for an extensive period of time for questioning and was not permitted to see his father, though he had requested it. It's possible, however unlikely, that van der Sloot remained and spoke with police voluntarily, though the turning down of a request to see his father indicates against it.

In the United States, police frequently succeed in detaining uncharged suspects who are legally not in custody and therefore legally free to leave. However, the legal status of being "in custody" triggers a suspects' Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights, and in the U.S., the longer an uncharged suspect is with police, the greater the presumption that he is in custody and that his Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment protections are triggered. It's possible that a six-hour stint in a police station is not custodial, but that an hour-long visit is, depending on what occurs there.

In the United States, the average suspect would by now be deemed to have been in custody, which would implicate his constitutional rights. As a general matter, in the United States, people must be charged or released within 24 hours of being taken into custody, and must have the charges read before a judge or magistrate (with the defendant present) within 24 hours of that.

From another article at the Birmingham News (Alabama):

Quote:
As part of the kingdom of the Netherlands, Aruba follows Dutch law. Here are a few details of the criminal procedure:

After arrest, suspects can be questioned for six hours before they become official detainees. (The two men in the Holloway case were arrested Sunday morning and officially detained at 2 p.m.) Prosecutors can then accuse them of a range of crimes that can be narrowed down later.

The initial interrogation period can last for two days after they are detained. The prosecutor then must determine whether there is reason to hold them longer. (In the Holloway case, the prosecutor has made that determination, said Vivian van der Biezen, spokeswoman for the prosecutor's office.)

Within three days, the prosecutor must go before a judge, who will decide whether the extended detention is legal and the case has so far been conducted properly. That is according to international human rights law, which Holland follows. (This is expected to happen today in the Holloway case.)

The maximum period for the second detention is eight days. The prosecutor then must again go before a judge to justify any extended detention. Van der Biezen said suspects may be detained a total of 116 days before trial.

Once the investigation is complete, the prosecutor presents in court a formal written case with the charges, and the trial begins.

Aruban authorities customarily refuse to release detainees' identities, or may refer to them only by their initials. (In the Holloway case, the two suspects' last names both begin with J, according to their attorney, Chris Lejuez.)

While we could argue about the validity of the US Constitution as a protection against an unfair detainment (and the possibility that the requirement to release could in fact hamper justice), I don't feel that the methods used in Aruba are wrong. The Aruban authorities seem to be doing the best they can and have been actively seeking help in the investigation from both the Netherlands and the US. With such a large burden on the Aruban prosecution, I'm quite sure that they'd be counting grains of sand on that beach if required.

I'm still waiting for the LAPD to get back to me from the time I was the only witness who stuck around after a pedestrian hit and run on La Brea in 2002. \
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post #29 of 31
Maybe they sold her into white slavery.
post #30 of 31
Quote:
In your opinion.

I don't have an opionion on which is better.

But - a island with 100K residents has a much better chance of conflict of interest in the justice system than a town with 10M people. The judges and lawyers probably know the suspects. If you have ever lived in a small town, then you would know what I mean.

Also, the US legal system is constantly in the media - the strengths and weaknesses of our legal system are well understood by the public. The same is not true of the Dutch or Arubian legal systems.
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post #31 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Well, people may disagree, but there should be no debate about whether the Holloway case is newsworthy. It clearly isn't. Unlike the cable news narrative, there really is no national epidemic of missing pretty white women. And I don't think our nation needs to worry about the safety of middle class pretty white chicks on vacation in relatively safe countries when perhaps millions live in unsafe abject poverty here in our own country. No comparison.

you can bitch all you want, it won't accomplish anything, the news media will always pick up on these type of stories : )

that said, it is an interesting case imo. Aruba is pretty much crime free and this is a horrible crime that has happened, probably the worst in its entire history
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