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post #81 of 171
7/7/05 at 11:30am
I'm very glad to hear that AI'ers, their family and friends, are unharmed. Also heartened by the reserved but steely reactions being shown by Londoners.

My best to all affected by this.
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post #82 of 171
7/7/05 at 11:42am
Condolences to the Londoners.
I am happy to see that our AI members living in London are in good shape.
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post #83 of 171
7/7/05 at 11:47am
Good to hear you're OK Midwinter.

That's good news.

Stay safe.
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post #84 of 171
7/7/05 at 1:55pm
I work at the British Medical Association where the bus bomb exploded. I was in a meeting at the front of the building. Adjacent to this room is a balcony that overlooks Woburn Place and Tavistock Square. When he heard the blast we all ran out onto the balcony and saw the bus with its roof ripped off.

There were survivors clambering over the seats of the top deck trying to escape and I particularly noticed one woman unconcious on the road curled up in a foetal position. I don't know what happened to her. There were clearly some dead people there.

The bus had been diverted down this street past BMA House because of the earlier bomb at Kings Cross. Because of this the many doctors in BMA house were able to provide treatment inside the building which became a triage centre. This may have saved people's lives.

It was a surreal and dreadful sight. I walked all the way home to north London and was still shaking when I got there. I have never been so glad to arrive home in my life. I dread to think of the friends and relatives of those people who won't be coming home
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post #85 of 171
7/7/05 at 2:17pm
That is a chilling account jonnyb. Thanks for sharing it. Interestingly, while I was reading your post I heard a report on the radio about how the bus was in front of a building full of Drs.

Best to all of you

Moe
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #86 of 171
7/7/05 at 2:28pm
Good to hear all you guys are safe.

Watching events on TV as they unfolded much of the day... dreadful scenes, although an eerie sense of calm seems to pervade the people on the streets.
The emergency services seem to have done an excellent job in responding quickly and effectively.

My condolences to all who have been affected by this terrible act.
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post #87 of 171
7/7/05 at 2:38pm
jonnyb, what a horrible thing to witness, many thanks for giving us a vivid account. I had just seen new post-atrocity footage and I too saw a woman on the road in that position, as if tucked up in bed. The horror.
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
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" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
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post #88 of 171
7/7/05 at 2:59pm
My brain hurts.

I've spoken to many of my friends in London today, all of them safe and well. I trust that we can all remain as objective about this as my friends and those on AI who have reported their experiences in the thick of it.

I don't feel any anger. I have, however, slipped back into the sadness that followed the 9/11 tragedy.

My best to all those affected, however remotely. I hope you can sleep well tonight. My thoughts, and those of my family, are with you.

Ian (ex-pat from Liverpool)
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #89 of 171
7/7/05 at 3:16pm
Surprised by joy--impatient as the wind
I turned to share the transport - Oh! with whom
But Thee, deep buried in the silent tomb,
That spot which no vicissitude can find?
Love, faithful love, recalled thee to my mind -
But how could I forget thee? Through what power,
Even for the least division of an hour,
Have I been so beguiled as to be blind
To my most grievous loss? - That thought's return
Was the worst pang that sorrow ever bore
Save one, one only, when I stood forlorn,
Knowing my heart's best treasure was no more;
That neither present time, nor years unborn,
Could to my sight that heavenly face restore.

William Wordsworth

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #90 of 171
7/7/05 at 6:50pm
Quote:
Why is anger a bad thing to feel when innocent people are slaughtered?

Because anger doesn't make you stronger.
It makes you blind!

Anger will tell you to blame the terrorists.

Logic should tell you to blame security services of England for not reventing such a massive undertaking.
If Tony Blair was a good leader he would, first of all, start an investigation as to why security services of the country are incompetent.
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post #91 of 171
7/7/05 at 6:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by powermacG6
terrorism doesn't work if you dont allow it to terrorize you.

This is the most sane thing I've heard about this incident. The worst thing about this would be to let it turn into something else. That would be just giving them what they ( The terrorists ) want.

Also I know this is a bit redundant but truly a sad, dispicable, and cowardly crime. However if I know the british they won't let this get to them.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #92 of 171
7/7/05 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by skatman
Because anger doesn't make you stronger.
It makes you blind!

Anger will tell you to blame the terrorists.

As would common sense

Quote:
Originally posted by skatman

Logic should tell you to blame security services of England for not reventing such a massive undertaking.
If Tony Blair was a good leader he would, first of all, start an investigation as to why security services of the country are incompetent.

Might you then blame the victims next?




Condolences to any affected by this.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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post #93 of 171
7/7/05 at 7:19pm
"Righteous indignation" is an oxymoron. There is no virtuous anger...anger is defeat.

Anger caused today's violence.

Why do you want to give in to animalistic mob mentality? That solves nothing.

Easy for me to say? Sure. But we all have seen people want revenge and when they get it they feel like crap all the more. There is no "closure" with revenge, it's a lie.

Better to honor your dead and injured by keeping a cool head and letting the justice and democratic processes work, instead of resorting to lynchings and vengeful genocides.

Be better than your enemies. What don't you get about that, NaplesX? <rhetorical, don't bother answering>
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #94 of 171
7/7/05 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
"Righteous indignation" is an oxymoron. There is no virtuous anger...anger is defeat.

Anger caused today's violence.

Why do you want to give in to animalistic mob mentality? That solves nothing.

Easy for me to say? Sure. But we all have seen people want revenge and when they get it they feel like crap all the more. There is no "closure" with revenge, it's a lie.

Better to honor your dead and injured by keeping a cool head and letting the justice and democratic processes work, instead of resorting to lynchings and vengeful genocides.

Be better than your enemies. What don't you get about that?

Anger is a normal a natural reaction. Anger does not mean lynching. Anger does not mean vengence. Anger means you are human.

You are right, though, it is better let the process work. Mobs do not work. But, mobs are not representative of anger. Mobs generally represent hate. What is destructive is when anger turns to hatred.

I am always confused by people who feel that westeners are not allowed to feel anger. All other groups are excused for feeling anger. Odd.

Having said that, I fully understand people being too sad, stunned or numb to feel anything else, even anger.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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post #95 of 171
7/7/05 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I am puzzled why there is no anger. Why is anger a bad thing to feel when innocent people are slaughtered?

Righteous indignation is a powerful force and appropriate at this time. I am not getting this avoidance of anger.

Am I missing something?

Who do I get angry at?

Yeah, I know the easy answer. The immediate emotion. Them.

It's not that easy, though, for me. This did not occur in a vacuum. Like that chaos theory example (of a butterfly on one side of the world fluttering away and that motion setting in place the conditions on the other side of the world for a tornado), the motivations for actions such as these are complex, largely immeasurable, and partially bullshit and conjecture. I don't want to make my judgements based on the outcome when I know that there were many things that contributed to it - many things I will never know or understand to a level that I feel I could base an objective conclusion on.

I don't get angry because blame is to be apportioned among many parties.

I'm sad because I'm sentimental. I'm sad because the world becomes less of a shiny colourful place each day. I'm sad because, while I once had a great desire to raise children, I don't feel that way any more. I'm sad because people who may have held more hope, than me, have perished. I'm sad because, each time something happens, I come to a greater realization that the medicine that the world needs is going to taste incredibly bitter.

I think sadness is a far deeper emotion than anger.

I don't know what else to say about why I feel the way I do.

I do know that I don't want to hate.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #96 of 171
7/7/05 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Anger is a normal a natural reaction. Anger does not mean lynching. Anger does not mean vengence. Anger means you are human.

I'm only talking about acting upon one's all-too-natural anger. No one makes good decisions when angry, be it a person, group or nation. Ride the emotions out and take it all in and take some time to come up with more rational responses, ones that might avoid cyclical violence.

The world and humanity is still beautiful. This can't change that. Look at all the doctors and rescue personnel and people helping eachother. This event makes life even more precious, no? Clinging to the notion of safety or permanence - assuming everything will be fine forever, is what makes these events all the more shocking. We think "Oh, I guess world affairs can affect me afterall". We need to remember death is a possibility at any instant (from whatever cause), so treat people well at all times and don't put things off. Fight for those things you think will make a difference. Vote your conscience even if your guy/gal loses. etc.

Pessimism and anger...throw them out. Be constructive.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #97 of 171
7/7/05 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again I am at a loss.

I hate evil. I hate evil acts.

Hate is not in and of itself a bad thing.

A person can be both angry and hate the evil acts and still act in a rational way.

How do you know what to love if you don't know what you hate - and vise versa?

I didn't say I don't hate. I said I don't want to. I believe that hate is a waste of my energy. Although I am prone to feel it, I think that the worlds hate bucket is full enough already.

Sadness overrides anger, in my case.

I do know what I love and I hold those things very close.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #98 of 171
7/7/05 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again I am at a loss.

I hate evil. I hate evil acts.

Hate is not in and of itself a bad thing.

A person can be both angry and hate the evil acts and still act in a rational way.

How do you know what to love if you don't know what you hate - and vise versa?

Hating "evil" is useless. If a man throws a rock at a dog, the dog will bark at the rock and not the man. The dog isn't seeing the true cause, only the superficial cause for his pain.

We need to "fight" and"kill" the underlying causes of evil, violent acts, which are powerlessness, greed, ignorance, poverty, disease, etc. Not the people living under these conditions, but the conditions themselves.

Hate is only a bad thing. It is a wallowing in a chemical reaction, a high from feeling abused by another. It is addictive and deceptive. It solves exactly nothing.

A person cannot be angry and still act in a rational way. That is the drug of hate talking, conning you into thinking it's ok. Like alcoholism's innocent whisper of "go ahead, what harm will having a few drinks do?"

You can repudiate evil acts with all your heart but it is with the wisdom of the superiority of reason and love, not with hate. Otherwise, you're the same as your enemies.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...

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post #99 of 171
7/7/05 at 8:36pm
Let me say it again.

Keep all discussion in this thread to positivity and condolensces. If that's not what is in your post, expect it to be edited or deleted.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #100 of 171
7/7/05 at 11:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Hating "evil" is useless. If a man throws a rock at a dog, the dog will bark at the rock and not the man. The dog isn't seeing the true cause, only the superficial cause for his pain.

We need to "fight" and"kill" the underlying causes of evil, violent acts, which are powerlessness, greed, ignorance, poverty, disease, etc. Not the people living under these conditions, but the conditions themselves.


Never a truer word said.

A big hug to all those Londoner's who are dealing with this tragic event.

b.
"The world is all that is the case"
~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
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"The world is all that is the case"
~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
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post #101 of 171
7/8/05 at 3:16am
Thread Starter 
my brother and fiancee arrive in heathrow in 1 hour. they'll be commencing jobs, flat hunting very soon and all that stuff with their new work visas (after doing the work-travel thing)

all the best to them and all londoners, brits, europeans and all others who have made that city a place to call their home.

just remember that terrorism is for the most part an act of desperation. it could get more insidious, but as you can see the world is starting to see it for what it is...
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post #102 of 171
7/8/05 at 3:41am
You know what is still wonderful the next day?

I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already.

Any other reaction is weakness. Cowardice. You won't make me scared, you won't make me hate my fellow Londoners, you won't make me too angry, you won't make me thrash out.

EVERYONE at work feels like this. The estate agent I met this morning feels the same. The guys on the underground feel like this. The cops feel like this. Do you understand? The cops feel like this.

Yes I want to see justice. I want to see the people that did this in prison.
I don't people that *just don't get it* telling me how to feel or who or how to blame ...

But London just showed me how strength and humanity is built in to its DNA.

God / Allah / The Way / Whatever, thanks so much.
meh
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meh
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post #103 of 171
7/8/05 at 3:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You know what is still wonderful the next day?

I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already.

Any other reaction is weakness. Cowardice. You won't make me scared, you won't make me hate my fellow Londoners, you won't make me too angry, you won't make me thrash out.

EVERYONE at work feels like this. The estate agent I met this morning feels the same. The guys on the underground feel like this. The cops feel like this. Do you understand? The cops feel like this.

Yes I want to see justice. I want to see the people that did this in prison.
I don't people that *just don't get it* telling me how to feel or who or how to blame ...

But London just showed me how strength and humanity is built in to its DNA.

God / Allah / The Way / Whatever, thanks so much.

awesome. humanity will survive the 21st century and we are getting ready for the next stage of our evolution.
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post #104 of 171
7/8/05 at 4:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already.

Indeed. (See if you can manage to restrain yourself this time, groverat, there's a good chap.)

The response by the British public has been noted here by the press and is receiving a great deal of praise and admiration. Also the emergency services for their rapid, no nonsense response. It's impressive and strangely comforting to hear someone directly caught up in these tragic events and clearly distressed and in shock, reply to the journalist who asked how he felt about the people who did this, with an immeasurable amount of dignity and one simple word.

Pity.
Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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Tomorrow shall be love for the loveless;
And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #105 of 171
7/8/05 at 7:42am
My sympathies to AI members who are effected by the bombings.

The past recedes. The future renews. The present becomes the future everyday.
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post #106 of 171
7/8/05 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You know what is still wonderful the next day?

I've spoken to not one -- not ONE -- person that is blindly angry about this. Not one person that feels fury or hatred. We're still sad ...

But we've won. We've beaten the terrorists already.

Me neither. I want a t-shirt that says "I rode the tube. 8/7/05"
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #107 of 171
7/8/05 at 12:00pm
I was thankful that I was at home and that my wife is lazy and leaves alot later for work. Without any knowledge of what was going on, my wife spent two hours trying to get to Farringdon in the north though only got as far as London Bridge. Thankfully she gave up and ended up at home.



My heart and prays go out to all those that have been affected by this dark in British history.

On a happier note, lets all celebrate at Bluewater tomorrow. Free t-shirt to the first 1000 people through the door.

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post #108 of 171
7/8/05 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Me neither. I want a t-shirt that says "I rode the tube. 8/7/05"

meh
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meh
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post #109 of 171
7/8/05 at 12:25pm
What's significant about August 7th?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #110 of 171
7/8/05 at 1:58pm
English date format dd/mm/yyyy vs american format mm/dd/yyyyy...nothing significant on 7 August
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post #111 of 171
7/8/05 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
What's significant about August 7th?

Now, now, none of that. Only positive, Brit-affirming messages are allowed in this thread.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #112 of 171
7/8/05 at 3:44pm
My condolences to all those affected by this piece of human frailty.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #113 of 171
7/9/05 at 3:02am
Just an anecdote: they're closing the British LIbrary early these days, and yesterday at 3:30 I popped over to the pub across the street (The Flyer) for a pint. A gaggle of photographers and reporters had assembled in one corner and had all their powerbooks open, looking at their photos.

As I walked past them to get to the loo, I glanced at what was on their screens.

Be glad that you're not seeing some really awful photographs on the news.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #114 of 171
7/10/05 at 9:47am
http://www.werenotafraid.com/

[edit: it appears this site has gone down, too popular; just about all the U.K. papers published the address]

Lots of Italians posting.

My favourite http://www.werenotafraid.com/index.php?s=subkultur click on "Comment" or search "subkultur"

- T. I.
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post #115 of 171
7/11/05 at 2:35am
Phil Beer RIP

I knew that living and working in london that I would know someone effected by last thursday's bombings. I was sad Friday night to find out that my next door neighbor Phil was one of the many missing people and even sadder yesterday to hear that his dead body had been brought up from the carnage at Kings X. Phil was a huge and much loved character and will be sadly missed. His boyfriend, Pat survived with serious injuries, but will now along with Phil's friends and family suffer in silence at their loss.

My heart goes out to them and to all the people effected. I along with all Londoner's will defiantly continue to act normally, strugle into work no matter what dissruption.

You brainless morons with bombs are cowards and will never win for your cause. We have pretty much wiped out the IRA with our resolve and now the world will see the same thing happen to you over time.
"It troolee iz a feersum endjinn"
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"It troolee iz a feersum endjinn"
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post #116 of 171
7/11/05 at 4:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by itsamac
English date format dd/mm/yyyy vs american format mm/dd/yyyyy...nothing significant on 7 August

Yeah... hence the
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #117 of 171
7/11/05 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by Crustibooga
Phil Beer RIP

Sorry.
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post #118 of 171
7/11/05 at 8:56am
I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend and neighbour Crusti, my thoughts are with you and all those who grieve. All the best to you and yours, Alex.
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
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" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
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post #119 of 171
7/11/05 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Crustibooga
Phil Beer RIP

I knew that living and working in london that I would know someone effected by last thursday's bombings. I was sad Friday night to find out that my next door neighbor Phil was one of the many missing people and even sadder yesterday to hear that his dead body had been brought up from the carnage at Kings X. Phil was a huge and much loved character and will be sadly missed. His boyfriend, Pat survived with serious injuries, but will now along with Phil's friends and family suffer in silence at their loss.

My heart goes out to them and to all the people effected. I along with all Londoner's will defiantly continue to act normally, strugle into work no matter what dissruption.

You brainless morons with bombs are cowards and will never win for your cause. We have pretty much wiped out the IRA with our resolve and now the world will see the same thing happen to you over time.

I had read Pat's description of his last moments with his partner in the Guardian newspaper as they lost each other after the bomb went off. I had not realised Phil had died. Terrible.
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post #120 of 171
7/12/05 at 7:56am
I have spoken to Kim, Phil's mum and although bleary eyed and obviously in pain with grief, she seemed ok. Last night close friends to their family were around, I heard talking and quite a lot of laughter as well as tears. As neighbors and friends we are in shock, but we will have nothing but smiles remembering his larger than life character. I am going to buy some flowers to put at the Elstree & Borehamwood Thameslink train station, so that others that knew Phil can give tributes.

I think that throughout this, the overwhelming feeling is of defiance. Yes there have been lives seriously damaged by this attack, but they have only made us stronger and they have gained nothing but to alienate themselves against Londoners and as Londoners, that means every race, colour and creed including the majority of Muslims that are respectable. Go hide you cowards and let the memory of Phil Beer's and all our freedom haunt you till your own unmissed graves.

Thank's to all your support, I will pass on the thoughts to his family.
"It troolee iz a feersum endjinn"
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"It troolee iz a feersum endjinn"
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