or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › London Terror Attack: Politics
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

London Terror Attack: Politics - Page 8

post #281 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Thinking out loud here, using my imagination and common sense: to build a bomb with an electronic timing device is probably way more hazardous and involved, compared to building a bomb with a manual triggering mechanism, (in a backback)...which can only fired by the bomber reaching inside and physically doing something to complete a circuit to make the electrical connection that fires the detonator, which sets off the main charge.

To achieve synchronized explosions, the only thing the terrorists would have had to have do was to synchronize their (cheap digital watches?) a half hour or so before boarding each train, carefully keep track of the time and and at the pre-ordained hour, fire the bombs. If these guys were not 'professionals' (?), then a simple approach like that makes more "sense"...that is, if any "sense" can be attached to all this.

Maybe their masters were afraid they'd chicken out?
post #282 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Maybe their masters were afraid they'd chicken out?

masters? um, that make it sounds a little like a conspira...
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #283 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
masters? um, that make it sounds a little like a conspira...

No, that makes it sound like the bombers are incredibly stupid and they listen to their masters, who are shrewd enough to teach the morons that killing themelves while slaughtering innocents will gain them access to heaven.
post #284 of 369
There was a very good editorial in the 7/12 Newsday, a local paper, by James Pinkerton, warning the US not to take what happened in London lightly.
London has a large partly alienated Muslim community that in part (not all, I'm not labeling them all radicals!) listens to radical Muslim preachers who advocate violence against Western countries, including England.
One of them said that if the West does not change its MidEast policies there will be a 9/11 every day. Pinkerton warned that the US should do more to guard against illegal immigration and that there are similar radical groups right in NY that preach violence against America. It amazes me that we don't act against them.

Now, how do you think these recent immigrants, not yet citizens, should be handled? Do you consider it free speech no matter how incendiary, or do you move to deport these people, who are clearly not going to become good citizens and have said they are out to do England harm?

I think you know what my response would be.

Get rid of the bad so the good can prosper and not be tainted by the radicals.
It is also a safety issue for the entire country.
The same goes for America.
post #285 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Thinking out loud here, using my imagination and common sense: to build a bomb with an electronic timing device is probably way more hazardous and involved, compared to building a bomb with a manual triggering mechanism, (in a backback)...which can only fired by the bomber reaching inside and physically doing something to complete a circuit to make the electrical connection that fires the detonator, which sets off the main charge.

To achieve synchronized explosions, the only thing the terrorists would have had to have do was to synchronize their (cheap digital watches?) a half hour or so before boarding each train, carefully keep track of the time and and at the pre-ordained hour, fire the bombs. If these guys were not 'professionals' (?), then a simple approach like that makes more "sense"...that is, if any "sense" can be attached to all this.

I've only heard that they leaning towards one of the bombers having died. There were reports the day of, or day after, that witnesses said there was a fellow on the bus that seems agitated and was fumbling inside his bag.

How about this as a possibilty: The bombs had timers. The bombers meant to set the timers, leave the bags and move on. We have a combination of 1) an agitated guy on a bus fumbling inside his bag 2) the bus bomb being the only one that didn't coincide with the other three bombs. Could it be that the bomber on the bus had some sort of techical problems and was trying get this working correctly, but when the others had gone off, reports were starting to come in, which would lead to transit halts and evacuations, he decides 'f*ck it, just blow it' and we have the bus bomb going off late and perhaps a dead bomber?

You are right, timers don't always work. But, they have the advantage of distance and removing the human guilt process. A timer won't decide it can't do the task. It might fail, but not because of conscience. So, you get 4 people outwardly willing to die, but have them carry timed devices as a backup. If they can also get away, great, you can use them again.

This seems like a lot more logical possibility, and doesn't involve having to jump through fantasy hoops to get there. All it take is: timed bombs->1 timer fails or becomes diconnected->attempt to reconnect or fix fails->maually detonated.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #286 of 369
Good and bad people are made, not born. Our actions towards people and groups can trigger friendship or hatred.

It's often the very act of trying to "root out" the "bad" people that you negatively affect the good people, in effect creating many more enemies than you started off with. Having one's father, brother or husband deported, shot or "disappeared" can only make a joke out of our claims of freedom and justice.

The typical end of this ever escalating scenario is concentration/internment camps, "detainment facilities", ghettoization, reservations, deportation, death via intentional neglect/indifference and/or genocide.

Are those befitting the U.S. or the U.K. or any free nation?
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #287 of 369
Improvising here, free association:

Much terrorism is a byproduct of defeated, broken peoples or broken nations, with no hope and nothing to live for, and 24/7 oppression. Under those heavy manners, the most unbalanced and angry of those 'brokens peoples in those broken nations' will take matters into their own hands and lash out, often taking their own worthless, useless, wretched lives in the process. Why so many suicide or kamikaze style bombers from Palestine and Iraq? Maybe because life for many people there, especially in crowded urban areas has lost all forms of dignity, and some people, consumed with pride cannot handle being reduced by their oppressors to perpetual grovelling in the dirt, where hope for the future has long evaporated and life remains nothing but a long, drawn out, hot and dusty hell.

The UK bombings do not follow this pattern. The perps appear to be Britons, from a nation that has a representative democracy, a decent standard of living, universal health care, freedom of speech, expression and movement, ie many essential aspects of a civilized community. Unlike their Palestinian brothers and sisters, for example, those people are not being oppressed and trodden down. But wait...they are, within their own Muslim community, in a different mental and psychological fashion. Hardline right-wing fundamentalism is being indoctrinated by extremist clerics into the impressionable minds of children, not just in the UK but all over the world; one of the suspected bombers was just 18 years old. (What the hell does a teenage kid know about how the world works?) Religious nuts are constantly pummelling the (horrendous) statistics of, for example, the Iraq war, and the grim fate of the Palestinians etc. etc. into the heads of these youngsters, who as a result become psychologically one-tracked into the notion that taking "an eye for an eye" is an appropriate and just reaction, despite the knowledge that that the genuine Islamic faith forbids such action. Perhaps western intelligence agencies should be infiltrating fundamentalist (principally Islamic) establishments throughout the world and even taking the extremist clerics out of circulation. These people are not only perverting a faith but at the same time raising a new generation of unbalanced kids who are being brainwashed into automatons by father-figures who have their trust. Terrorism and an endless cycle of useless violence is thus perpetuated, benefitting nobody except those who get rich from warfare.

(As an afterthought, I can understand suicide bombers going after military or police/government targets....ie the visible agents of oppression; this would be more "freedom fighting" than terrorism...but they don't...instead they always seem to go after soft targets such as buses, trains, cafes, cinemas and restaurants etc., killing blameless civilians. One of the conundrums of terrorism is: why do these people attack targets that will result in everyone, including most of their own community, condemning them, making them pariahs even in death? Either they are too psychologically screwed up to make the distinction while at the same time it is in the interest of third parties to maintain the cycle of violence). "Follow the money trail"...

Then there are all the other varieties of terrorism that have factors other than religious BS... but I don't have all the remainder of the week to type in here. So you can all sigh with relief.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #288 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
I've only heard that they leaning towards one of the bombers having died. There were reports the day of, or day after, that witnesses said there was a fellow on the bus that seems agitated and was fumbling inside his bag.

How about this as a possibilty: The bombs had timers. The bombers meant to set the timers, leave the bags and move on. We have a combination of 1) an agitated guy on a bus fumbling inside his bag 2) the bus bomb being the only one that didn't coincide with the other three bombs. Could it be that the bomber on the bus had some sort of techical problems and was trying get this working correctly, but when the others had gone off, reports were starting to come in, which would lead to transit halts and evacuations, he decides 'f*ck it, just blow it' and we have the bus bomb going off late and perhaps a dead bomber?

You are right, timers don't always work. But, they have the advantage of distance and removing the human guilt process. A timer won't decide it can't do the task. It might fail, but not because of conscience. So, you get 4 people outwardly willing to die, but have them carry timed devices as a backup. If they can also get away, great, you can use them again.

This seems like a lot more logical possibility, and doesn't involve having to jump through fantasy hoops to get there. All it take is: timed bombs->1 timer fails or becomes diconnected->attempt to reconnect or fix fails->maually detonated.

Sounds very logical.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #289 of 369
Top post Sammi Jo. Honest.

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply
post #290 of 369
"Perhaps western intelligence agencies should be infiltrating fundamentalist (principally Islamic) establishments throughout the world and even taking the extremist clerics out of circulation. "

And how would you respond to this Sammi? Is that maybe what we are going right now?
Moe has left the building
Reply
Moe has left the building
Reply
post #291 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Good and bad people are made, not born. Our actions towards people and groups can trigger friendship or hatred.

It's often the very act of trying to "root out" the "bad" people that you negatively affect the good people, in effect creating many more enemies than you started off with. Having one's father, brother or husband deported, shot or "disappeared" can only make a joke out of our claims of freedom and justice.

The typical end of this ever escalating scenario is concentration/internment camps, "detainment facilities", ghettoization, reservations, deportation, death via intentional neglect/indifference and/or genocide.

Are those befitting the U.S. or the U.K. or any free nation?

So, we keep the known fanatics here or in London so as not to piss anyone off?
Doesn't sound like a plan to me.
post #292 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Improvising here, free association:

Much terrorism is a byproduct of defeated, broken peoples or broken nations, with no hope and nothing to live for, and 24/7 oppression. Under those heavy manners, the most unbalanced and angry of those 'brokens peoples in those broken nations' will take matters into their own hands and lash out, often taking their own worthless, useless, wretched lives in the process. Why so many suicide or kamikaze style bombers from Palestine and Iraq? Maybe because life for many people there, especially in crowded urban areas has lost all forms of dignity, and some people, consumed with pride cannot handle being reduced by their oppressors to perpetual grovelling in the dirt, where hope for the future has long evaporated and life remains nothing but a long, drawn out, hot and dusty hell.

The UK bombings do not follow this pattern. The perps appear to be Britons, from a nation that has a representative democracy, a decent standard of living, universal health care, freedom of speech, expression and movement, ie many essential aspects of a civilized community. Unlike their Palestinian brothers and sisters, for example, those people are not being oppressed and trodden down. But wait...they are, within their own Muslim community, in a different mental and psychological fashion. Hardline right-wing fundamentalism is being indoctrinated by extremist clerics into the impressionable minds of children, not just in the UK but all over the world; one of the suspected bombers was just 18 years old. (What the hell does a teenage kid know about how the world works?) Religious nuts are constantly pummelling the (horrendous) statistics of, for example, the Iraq war, and the grim fate of the Palestinians etc. etc. into the heads of these youngsters, who as a result become psychologically one-tracked into the notion that taking "an eye for an eye" is an appropriate and just reaction, despite the knowledge that that the genuine Islamic faith forbids such action. Perhaps western intelligence agencies should be infiltrating fundamentalist (principally Islamic) establishments throughout the world and even taking the extremist clerics out of circulation. These people are not only perverting a faith but at the same time raising a new generation of unbalanced kids who are being brainwashed into automatons by father-figures who have their trust. Terrorism and an endless cycle of useless violence is thus perpetuated, benefitting nobody except those who get rich from warfare.

(As an afterthought, I can understand suicide bombers going after military or police/government targets....ie the visible agents of oppression; this would be more "freedom fighting" than terrorism...but they don't...instead they always seem to go after soft targets such as buses, trains, cafes, cinemas and restaurants etc., killing blameless civilians. One of the conundrums of terrorism is: why do these people attack targets that will result in everyone, including most of their own community, condemning them, making them pariahs even in death? Either they are too psychologically screwed up to make the distinction while at the same time it is in the interest of third parties to maintain the cycle of violence). "Follow the money trail"...

Then there are all the other varieties of terrorism that have factors other than religious BS... but I don't have all the remainder of the week to type in here. So you can all sigh with relief.

Well put.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #293 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
So, we keep the known fanatics here or in London so as not to piss anyone off?
Doesn't sound like a plan to me.


"Piss anyone off"? Try "not become like our enemies or force them to undermine our own values".

Terrorism (this kind) is fundamentally a police (the "P" word so demonized by the warmongers)/S.W.A.T. nature and at times special ops. Hell 9/11 could have been prevented by anyone from a beat cop to a nosey neighbor all the way up to NORAD had people been more less innocent/lax about the subject.

Parking a tank on Wall Street doesn't do much except for show to the citizens (i.e. fake, illusory security - which by the way is all it ever is).

Gather intelligence, make raids, spy within limits, arrest suspects, deport convicted foreign nationals, but don't subvert the Constitution in the process.

If they can fuck us over by playing the system, well the system is working for everyone else (99.999%) if it means we aren't all rounded up and harassed and watched 24/7. Terrorists can and will always have the upper hand in free societies. We need to address the underlying causes of disenfranchisement and desperation in the Muslim world that leads some of them to radicalize.

We defeated Nazi and Japanese Imperial ideologies and even though the battlefield is different, Islamic extremism too can be defeated. But it's with political and economic pressures on the offending countries that is important not merely military escalation and policestate "solutions".

But America is an addict for Saudi/Iraqi oil (not to mention Afghanistan's poppies) so politicians and big business look the other way (betray America).

Another thing is what about when the suspects *are* Americans or Brits?

Do we deport our own citizens to other countries where torture and endless detainment is allowed? Without open trials?

Mere designation as an "enemy combatant" by persons unknown can basically land any American in Gitmo, no matter how false the accusation. Land of the Free? What's Gitmo's motto? Land of "Them"?
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
Reply
post #294 of 369
>f they can fuck us over by playing the system, well the system is working for everyone else (99.999%) if it means we aren't all rounded up and harassed and watched 24/7. Terrorists can and will always have the upper hand in free societies. We need to address the underlying causes of disenfranchisement and desperation in the Muslim world that leads some of them to radicalize.<

You are thinking ahead. We have people here now who mean to do us harm and aren't exactly silent about it.
You think we should just leave them be because its the right thing to do?
No, the right thing to do is to round them up and deport them. Doing nothing to protect the citizens of a free society or any society is just wrong. It makes no sense.

>Another thing is what about when the suspects *are* Americans or Brits?

Do we deport our own citizens to other countries where torture and endless detainment is allowed? Without open trials?<

We can't deport our citizens. I am talking about deporting immigrants who haven't yet become citizens. Egypt, for instance, warned the US and England about radical Muslims who sought refuge from Egypt. They were right. I feel they should be rounded up and sent back to Egypt. Same for 'refugees' who are radicals from other Muslim countries.
post #295 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Um, hello!!??

Terrorism did not stem from Iraq. Muslim terrorists have been attacking western interests long before even 9/11.

Let's not forget that.

but its acclerated now and much worse thanks to you know who
post #296 of 369
I remember Bush stating shortly after 9-11, (not verbatim but in this general sense): "Its not just the terrorists, but any nation that harbors them.....are just as guilty". I wonder if there a single country on the planet that doesn't knowingly harbor terrorists of one variety of another? In which case, which nations are liable to getting bombed or sanctioned, and which ones can get away with it? What parameters make the distinctions? A useless thought, perhaps, in a duplicitous, unfair world....but double standards are a major pet peeve of mine...
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #297 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666


>>>>>Do we deport our own citizens to other countries where torture and endless detainment is allowed? Without open trials?<<<<<

We can't deport our citizens. I am talking about deporting immigrants who haven't yet become citizens. Egypt, for instance, warned the US and England about radical Muslims who sought refuge from Egypt. They were right. I feel they should be rounded up and sent back to Egypt. Same for 'refugees' who are radicals from other Muslim countries.

I heard that Patriot Act II had (has?) a section where a US citizen can be stripped of his/her citizenship, if that course of action is deemed by the authorities "appropriate". The tribunal under which this can happen is secret, and the defendant has no right of appeal. I am not sure if this piece of the Patriot Act still exists. Perhaps it was excised from the legislation...
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #298 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I heard that Patriot Act II had (has?) a section where a US citizen can be stripped of his/her citizenship, if that course of action is deemed by the authorities "appropriate". The tribunal under which this can happen is secret, and the defendant has no right of appeal. I am not sure if this piece of the Patriot Act still exists. Perhaps it was excised from the legislation...

It's already happened, hasn't it? Yasser Hamdi, a US citizen captured in Afghanistan, was released from detention and deported to Saudi Arabia on the condition that he renounce his US citizenship. That seems only semantically distinct from stripping someone of citizenship, although semantics may be important. Only US citizenship has so far been found to be a legal bar to indefinite detention without trial. If the government could strip detainees of their citizenship, it could presumably keep them detained afterwards, rather than releasing and deporting them.
post #299 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
It's already happened, hasn't it? Yasser Hamdi, a US citizen captured in Afghanistan, was released from detention and deported to Saudi Arabia on the condition that he renounce his US citizenship. That seems only semantically distinct from stripping someone of citizenship, although semantics may be important. Only US citizenship has so far been found to be a legal bar to indefinite detention without trial. If the government could strip detainees of their citizenship, it could presumably keep them detained afterwards, rather than releasing and deporting them.

Don't forget Daniel Padilla, who got a military trial after being held in a Naval brig for months without access to a lawyer. Contrast that with John Walker, who was captured in Afghanistan fighting against US soldiers; he got a criminal trial.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #300 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo

...that taking "an eye for an eye" is an appropriate and just reaction, despite the knowledge that that the genuine Islamic faith forbids such action.

That's part of the problem, the Quran doesn't prohibit "eye for eye"-retaliation, it just says it would be better to forgive, ie. retaliation in the eye-for-eye-way in times of war is allowed though not prescripted.

That's also why the terrorists always target soft spots, ie. unarmed civilians, not only in order to scare the civilian population that ultimately can influence the policy of the government in democracies, but also to retaliate in the eye-for-eye-way, ie. civilians have to be killed to retaliate the death of islamic civilians by the acts of the government of that country.

What is prohibited in Islam though is suicide, so suicide-bombers are most likely to come to hell. What is though more condemning in an islamic way is that the terrorists follow "wrong prophets", that change what Islam is, and change the meaning of the Quran or inventing own rules and ideologies..., for example the whole suicide-bombing->martyr->immediate-paradise-reward-ideology or the declaration of christians and jews as well as moderate muslims as polytheists and unbelievers, that therefore can be killed, despite the notion in the Quran that intentionally killing a believer in God (regardless of the religion) is like killing the whole humanity...

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
post #301 of 369
Back to the controversy, which has not, anywhere near, been resolved satisfactorily.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mpa...77/982542.html

This article by Webster Tarpley, is essential reading, although probably offensive for the legions of weasels. There are far too many inconsistencies and unlikelihoods in the UK Govt.'s version, faithfully peddled by the mainstream, to allow the case to simply be wrapped up neatly and assigned to the usual suspects. Just as in 9-11 and numerous other events of this nature, the (often mountains of) facts that don't gel with the official mission get left by the wayside, and all that remains for the general public, who don't have the time or inclination to go digging, is a sanitized and therefore wildly inaccurate version of history. The people who are responsible for misleading the public and therefore allowing the continuation of the unholy status quo are the real sponsors and harborers of terrorism.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #302 of 369
Ooh, can i join the Legion of Weasels ? I'm too hot to be offended today.

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply
post #303 of 369
I would just like to know why the BBC cant call a terrorist a terrorist? A news orginazation shouldnt try to spin things and thats what they are doing Shame on the BBC for this one.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #304 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I heard that Patriot Act II had (has?) a section where a US citizen can be stripped of his/her citizenship, if that course of action is deemed by the authorities "appropriate". The tribunal under which this can happen is secret, and the defendant has no right of appeal. I am not sure if this piece of the Patriot Act still exists. Perhaps it was excised from the legislation...

I would want it reinstated, but with representation.
post #305 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
I would want it reinstated, but with representation.

Secret tribunals outside of the realm of the judiciary have no place in a democracy. Period.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #306 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Secret tribunals outside of the realm of the judiciary have no place in a democracy. Period.

Well, if they had represtentation it would be hard to keep it a secret.
post #307 of 369
I just came across this little paragaph on a website, which sounds relevant when considering the fact that a 1000 person "security drill" was happening at exactly the same time, at exactly the same Tube stations, amongst others, that the bombings occurred.

"Hey Mohammed, you wanna make some easy money here?...you look like you could use a few quid. We're running an anti-terrorist drill, and all we're asking you to do is take this backpack on the train with you now. This backpack has a fake bomb inside, and we need to know how efficient the security folks are on the underground, and if they catch you or not. If they do, here's this card, make sure you don't lose it. If you do happen to get detained, show the security man this card, and a representative of our company will meet you, and you will be rewarded well for your part in this program to enhance our national security. Make sure you do not divulge this to anyone until you call the number on the card. Best of luck to you sir, and thankyou for your patriotism."

Awfully conspiratorial huh?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #308 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I just came across this little paragaph on a website, which sounds relevant when considering the fact that a 1000 person "security drill" was happening at exactly the same time, at exactly the same Tube stations, amongst others, that the bombings occurred.

I just know I'm going to regret getting into this, but I'll bite.

Just where exactly did you get the information that a "1000 person security drill" was happening at the time of the bombings?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #309 of 369
The real problem is that a faction of Islam (self proclaimed) has declared war on the Western World and anyone who deals with it and these people have hijacked the minds of young Muslims and convinced themselves to kill themselves for "the cause". Why, sammi jo, must you waste so much time entertaining pin-head conspiracies that somehow connect all evil in the World to Jews, international corporations and Bush? Confused young men on a mission conceived by some whacko self-proclaimed Islamic Zealot blew up a train and killed a lot of folks. The problem is not simple to solve, but it is simple to define.
Moe has left the building
Reply
Moe has left the building
Reply
post #310 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
The real problem is that a faction of Islam (self proclaimed) has declared war on the Western World and anyone who deals with it and these people have hijacked the minds of young Muslims and convinced themselves to kill themselves for "the cause". Why, sammi jo, must you waste so much time entertaining pin-head conspiracies that somehow connect all evil in the World to Jews, international corporations and Bush? Confused young men on a mission conceived by some whacko self-proclaimed Islamic Zealot blew up a train and killed a lot of folks. The problem is not simple to solve, but it is simple to define.

You are so right in saying that the problem is simple to define, and that's a large cause of our problems. The (evil) Soviet Union no longer exists and the fact that the 'threat of "communism" ' is no longer a sellable item is undeniable. We love "Red China"..they are our largest trading partners now!

For a society that 'functions' on a big fear factor, is is an easy task to fill the vacuum: courtesy of a hardworking sales force and a compliant corporate media, we are now buying wholesale into 'neoconspeak' and their concept that "all muslims are potential terrorists". And since the US Neocons, who with their broad connections to Israel and Jewish society, are the natural enemies of Arabs and muslims in general, it follows that this is mirrored in US foreign policy. Ariel Sharon, Israeli PM has brazenly and publicly stated this fact...see the quote at the bottom of each post I make.

I hope not, but I know that some people will read "anti-semitism" into the above paragraph, for obvious but misguided reasons. I have no 'favorites' regarding any of the parties in the Middle East: my gripe is with those who fabricate demons and bogeymen. Why does this occur, one may well ask? Look at human activity since the start of recorded history, and it has been happening throughout the ages; it is an ongoing process. It is hardly surprising that the Jewish people, who have endured centuries of persecution, even attempted extermination, now have an overly developed sense of self preservation. "By way of deception thou shalt do war".

By the way, the Israeli Government together with the Mossad has a long history of instigating terrorist attacks and blaming other parties. Hamas, for example was a creation of the Israeli government as a counter to Yasser Arafat's PLO. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Recall Abu Nidal, one of the world's most notorious terrorists: he may easily have been a Mossad agent. http://www.la.utexas.edu/chenry/mena...1993/0011.html http://galaxy.osnews.com/email.php?blog_id=874

Regarding "pinhead conspiracy theories": Please tell me why some conspiracy theories are "pinhead", and why others get such broad public support and recognition, for example the Neocon-engineered war in Iraq, which was based on the arch whacko-conspiracy-nuthouse-theory that Iraq was about to attack us. The US taxpayer has now "invested" $300,000,000,000 so far on this paranoid debacle.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #311 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
I just know I'm going to regret getting into this, but I'll bite.

Regret..an interesting admission. I wonder why?

Quote:
Just where exactly did you get the information that a "1000 person security drill" was happening at the time of the bombings?

The company involved in the drill: http://www.visorconsultants.com/index.html

To quote: On a BBC Radio 5 interview that aired on the evening of the 7th, the host interviewed Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, which bills itself as a 'crisis management' advice company, better known to you and I as a PR firm.

Peter Power was a former Scotland Yard official, working at one time with the Anti Terrorist Branch.

Power told the host that at the exact same time that the London bombings were taking place, his company was running a 1,000 person strong exercise which drilled the London Underground being bombed at the exact same locations, at the exact same times, as happened in real life.

The transcript is as follows.

POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.

HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.


The interview was broadcast on BBC radio. The BBC, sponsored by the UK taxpayer, is hardly know as 'the center for whack-job conspiracy theory broadcasting, that is, discounting Tony B. Liar's wild musings in suport of BushCorp and the NeoCons. I take it people still listen to BBC radio in the UK?

Someone please give me some REAL IRREFUTABLE DATA that discounts this story. Then, I shall hang my head and drop it.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #312 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I just came across this little paragaph on a website, which sounds relevant when considering the fact that a 1000 person "security drill" was happening at exactly the same time, at exactly the same Tube stations, amongst others, that the bombings occurred.

"Hey Mohammed, you wanna make some easy money here?...you look like you could use a few quid. We're running an anti-terrorist drill, and all we're asking you to do is take this backpack on the train with you now. This backpack has a fake bomb inside, and we need to know how efficient the security folks are on the underground, and if they catch you or not. If they do, here's this card, make sure you don't lose it. If you do happen to get detained, show the security man this card, and a representative of our company will meet you, and you will be rewarded well for your part in this program to enhance our national security. Make sure you do not divulge this to anyone until you call the number on the card. Best of luck to you sir, and thankyou for your patriotism."

Awfully conspiratorial huh?

Actually, its awfully ridiculous
post #313 of 369
This man was on the media a lot that day. I think his firm is a bit more than a PR company. He was running an exercise on behalf of some un-named company in the City. it was not taking place in any of the stations involved, it just had a scenario where simultaneous attacks took place on the transport network. It was not a security drill but a" how would you handle this" excercise. Oh and it's BBC 5 Live, which like all of the BBC except the World Service , is not sponsored by the UK taxpayer but by a licence fee. What is your point?

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply
post #314 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex London
This man was on the media a lot that day. I think his firm is a bit more than a PR company. He was running an exercise on behalf of some un-named company in the City.

At least we are agreed on at least the existence of this man, the broadcasts, and the company involved...

Quote:
it was not taking place in any of the stations involved,

That is in contradiction to what Peter Power himself stated.

Quote:
it just had a scenario where simultaneous attacks took place on the transport network. It was not a security drill but a" how would you handle this" excercise.

Yes..and?

Quote:
Oh and it's BBC 5 Live, which like all of the BBC except the World Service , is not sponsored by the UK taxpayer but by a licence fee.

Yes, the BBC is funded by TV license fees, which are enforced by law for any household that owns a televison set (and potentially in the future, a personal computer), whether it can receive a BBC transmission or not. Since the vast majority of UK households own a TV, and UK households are (I suppose?) taxpayers, then your statement is well into splitting hairs/semantics territory.

Quote:
What is your point?

The circumstances surrounding the attacks have too many inconsistencies and coincidences. Come back and tell me when a satisfactory timeline and explanation that covers everything within reasonable doubt have been established, with proofs. Or is there going to be another "get someone, get anyone situation that resulted in the "Guildford Six", the "Birmingham Four", etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc? Have the "Provos" now been replaced by the "Islamos"?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #315 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Actually, its awfully ridiculous

Yes...because....???

*waits with baited breath*
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #316 of 369
Not it is not a contradiction. You claimed in an earlier post-" I just came across this little paragaph on a website, which sounds relevant when considering the fact that a 1000 person "security drill" was happening at exactly the same time, at exactly the same Tube stations, amongst others, that the bombings occurred." You see what I'm getting at, it wasn't actually happening at the actual stations like you stated it was.

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply

"Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking." XamaX

I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or...

Reply
post #317 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Yes...because....???

*waits with baited breath*

Read Alex' next post
post #318 of 369
Doesn't he say that the 'company', rather than the drill, consists of a thousand people. It sounds like the drill/scenario was just a roomfull of people.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
Reply
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
Reply
post #319 of 369
Baited breath is just a gross image.

I prefer my breath "bated," thank you.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #320 of 369
Some interesting reading on the whole terrorism thing:

http://www.blaserco.com/blogs/2005/07/11.html

I'm always impressed that the higher-ups in the US Army and little old pacifist me agree on so much when it comes to dealing with terrorism, unlike certain chicken-hawk Republicans.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
Reply
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › London Terror Attack: Politics