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Christian Terror - Muslim Terror  

post #1 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
No one's justifyng terrorism of any sort. I can't let you guys equate an expected incidence of criminals in any given denomination to an entire denomination dominated by criminal behavior.

Assassinating doctors and blowing up clinics are terrorist acts carried out by Christian extremists, and supported by a great number of Christian fundamentalists. Since I've moved to the south I met far too many Christians involved with the anti-abortion movement that think that the doctors got what they deserved, and that the bombings are totally justified.

There have been numerous posts in this thread defending, or at least trying to down play, the terrorists acts of Christian extremists, and you do it here once again by saying that they are just an "expected incidence of criminals" and not terrorist.

There are approximately 2 billion christians and 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. The percentage of either group that are terrorists are extremely small. Stating that the "entire [Muslim] denomination dominated by criminal behavior" is bigoted and untrue.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
post #2 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
...then he would be the darling of the left and you would seeking to find ways to address the inequities that caused his behavior.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
post #3 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
So you aren't capable of a serious, honest discussion.

Did that one hit too close to home? Sorry. But, you know very well, that when people, on these very boards, rationalize or defend terrorist acts by islamists, they and their arguements are readily and warmly embraced by the left.

So, when you make an open-ended statement like "Good thing you are a christian defending christian terrorists. If you were a muslim talking making similar comments about al-qaeda... then I think I found a suitable and truthful ending to the statement.

Regarding the 'christians' who commit acts of terror. I would say hunt them and prosecute them or kill them in the attempt. I would say their justifications are wrong and that we, as a society need to do nothing to adjust our practices or policies to appease them. At the same time, I would support their peaceful attempts to affect policies.

Regarding 'Islamic' terrorists who commit acts of terror. I would say hunt them and prosecute them or kill them in the attempt. I would say their justifications are wrong and that we, as a society need to do nothing to adjust our practices or policies to appease them. At the same time, I would support their peaceful attempts to affect policies.

Now, on the left, those two statements would never be said unconditionally. On the left, we would be told that western poilicy must be examined and changed to eliminate the causes of the 'Islamic' terrorist.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #4 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Did that one hit too close to home?

Are you joking? I thought you were being dishonest, but I guess you're just nuts.

You know, this reminds me of some rove bullshit pointed out in the blog world the other day. Rove:
Quote:
Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war. Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.

reality:
Quote:
In a poll conducted just days after the attacks (9/13 to 9/14) they showed roughly the same numbers of liberals (69%) and conservatives (72%) agreeing that "the United States is now in a state of war (the sampling error for those subgroups was at least 4%). In a question that forced a choice eerily similar to the rhetorical contrast offered by Rove, 68% of liberals wanted to "retaliate against bin Laden's group through military action," while 29% preferred that the "United States pursue justice by bringing him to trial in the United States?" Conservatives preferred war over a trial by a 72% to 22% margin.

As far as your specific comment about "the inequities that caused his behavior.", I've never been really sure what people like you are getting at. Is it anti-intellectualism? Do you not realize that bush admin policy is also shaped by intellectuals?
post #5 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Res

There are approximately 2 billion christians and 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. The percentage of either group that are terrorists are extremely small. Stating that the "entire [Muslim] denomination dominated by criminal behavior" is bigoted and untrue.

ummm...he wrote 'an' not 'the', and yes that makes a difference.

Now, are there major Islamic 'denominations' or sects that support, teach or fund terrorist act? Yes. Is it bigoted or untrue to say that there are major denominations within Islam that dominated by criminal behavior? No. It is simply fact. Speak to segovios, our resident Islamic scholar here, and he would be happy to go into details about the beliefs of the wahhabi.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #6 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Now, on the left, those two statements would never be said unconditionally. On the left, we would be told that western poilicy must be examined and changed to eliminate the causes of the 'Islamic' terrorist.

Nonsense. There are probably some on the fringe who are as bad about justifying Islamic terrorism as our own Chris Cuilla has here, but I've seen it only rarely, no more than fringe right wingers. For example, it was the Christian right wing as represented by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who blamed American feminists and homosexuals for 9/11, and just a few weeks ago said that our Supreme Court justices were worse than the 9/11 terrorists.
post #7 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:41am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Not sanctioned or condoned by any major catholic, orthodox or protestant denomination. Can you say the same about Islamic violence?

The christian church positions on Homosexuality and abortion are the root causes of most violence towards gays and abortion doctors - I count that as support of violence.

Not only that, but the various Evangelical leaders are constantly spouting hate speach, some even going so far as to call for violence against US judges. There were recent threads about this.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #8 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by giant

As far as your specific comment, I've never been really sure what people like you are getting at. Is it anti-intellectualism? Do you realize that bush admin policy is also shaped by intellectuals.

Really? How completely off topic.

Ok, back to the point, which was your comment about reactions to someone defending particular acts. Let's compare and contrast you personal reactions to apologists for islamic terrorism and apologists for anti-abortion terrorim.

If I were to defend islamic terrorism as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities. And further argue that in order to prevent such future acts, the US and UK must completely change their polices towards the ME and that Bush and co. are largely responsible for any acts or terrorism, foreign and domestic. You would never in your live think to argue against these arguements.

If, I were to in anyway rationalize the killings of abortion practitioners, you would probably think me a monster, an idiot or both.

Anything here you would disagree with?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #9 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Not sanctioned or condoned by any major catholic, orthodox or protestant denomination. Can you say the same about Islamic violence?

Does it matter? The point is that christians are responsible for far, far more terror attacks in the US than muslims. Would it be a better situation if there were many more attacks in the US by muslims as long as muslim leaders didn't advocate the violence, but, like their cristian counterparts, still preach openly about the "murder" committed by their sinful enemies? I don't think so.
post #10 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Nonsense. There are probably some on the fringe who are as bad about justifying Islamic terrorism as our own Chris Cuilla has here, but I've seen it only rarely, no more than fringe right wingers. For example, it was the Christian right wing as represented by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who blamed American feminists and homosexuals for 9/11, and just a few weeks ago said that our Supreme Court justices were worse than the 9/11 terrorists.

You are right, I am generalizing. My bad. But, the 'fringe' on the left is a growing movement.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #11 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Let's compare and contrast you personal reactions to apologists for islamic terrorism ... If I were to defend islamic terrorism as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities.

BULLSHIT, tulkas. Is someone an apologist when talking about the colonial roots of the rwandan genocide? How about conflict in Congo? Of course not. Your agument is just a glorification of ignorance.
post #12 of 119
7/10/05 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The christian church positions on Homosexuality and abortion are the root causes of most violence towards gays and abortion doctors - I count that as support of violence.


That would be an opinion and a pretty weak one at that. With such a loose intepretation of support for violence as you have, then it would indeed be easy to find blame.

I would call support of violence to be when violence is espoused, condoned or financed.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #13 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
That would be an opinion and a pretty weak one at that.

It's not weak. They both employ the same "murder of innocents" (fetuses, palestinian children, etc) rhetoric that inspires and encourages their respective terrorist wings.
post #14 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
BULLSHIT, tulkas. Is someone an apologist when talking about the colonial roots of the rwandan genocide? How about conflict in Congo? Of course not. Your agument is just a glorification of ignorance.


again, back to the point:

Giant: If I were to defend islamic terrorism as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities, what would your reaction be?

If, I were to in anyway rationalize the killings of abortion practitioners, as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities what would your reaction be?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #15 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Giant: If I were to defend islamic terrorism as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities, what would your reaction be?

If, I were to in anyway rationalize the killings of abortion practitioners, as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities what would your reaction be?

Chris wasn't "rationaliz[ing]" the anti-abortion terror campaign as "as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities", he spent post after post trying trying to put it in a good light, downplaying the significance of the terror campaign and its destruction, distorting the statements of others, claiming that people were making arguments they weren't making and overtly sympathizing with the terrorist goals using the rhetoric they use.

After all that we have you making up strawmen to argue with. There's nothing wrong with studying and understanding "the killings of abortion practitioners, as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities." That's what intelligent people do. But that's not what Chris did, so shove your strawman.
post #16 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's not weak. They both employ the same "murder of innocents" (fetuses, palestinian children, etc) rhetoric that inspires and encourages their respective terrorist wings.

"The christian church positions on Homosexuality and abortion are the root causes of most violence towards gays and abortion doctors - I count that as support of violence."

Now, again, back on point, if the christian church position on homosexuality is the root cause of violence towards gays, how does one then explain violence against gays from non-christian people? If it is the root cause, then by definition, it is the original cause. That would make explaining it from non-christians difficult. How about in entirely non-christian cultures? How about pre-christian cultures? Can the effect happen before the cause? or without the cause?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #17 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:43pm
Don't respond to me with a quote from someone else, particularly when you are attempting to avoid the uncomfortable fact that christian views and rhetoric cause, inspire, encourage and provide the justification for these anti-abortion terror attacks, just like muslim terrorism and its corresponding rhetoric.
post #18 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Nonsense. There are probably some on the fringe who are as bad about justifying Islamic terrorism as our own Chris Cuilla has here

I'm actually not justifying any terrorism.
post #19 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:50pm
You spent post after post downplaying the significance of the terror campaign and its destruction, trying to put it in a good light, distorting the statements of others, claiming that people were making arguments they weren't making and overtly sympathizing and identifying with the terrorists' goals using the rhetoric they use.
post #20 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Well, as pointed out 100 times in this thread, the vast, vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US have been committed by christian terrorists that many american christians sympathize with.

agian, gaint, body count for body count, dollar for dollar of destroyed property you cannot even begin to compare these two.
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
But on top of that christianity has been a violent religion from the beginning, not just during the inquisition and crusades (but those certainly are very significant), and we still have christian violence across the world in modern times.

That is is a completely unsupportable statement.
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Since when do psychological and political impact of crimes show up in "crime statistics?" Don't try to avoid the fact that your point about "crime statistics" was flawed by bringing up something unrelated to "crime statistics."

again, you're dodging the legitimate point that in any particular group, you are going to have memebers who act in a criminal way -- and that the inicidence of "christians" who act illegally is a not above this level.
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's a terror campaign by any definition. Funny (well, actually scary) how terrorists become simple "criminals" when you agree with them, dmz.

agian, you're attempting to broaden this, but you're not doing a very good job. You can't deny that certain lslamic denominations are institutinalizing violence and that you cannot find this parallel in Christianity. The only thing you can point to in this day and age is a "normal" or "typical" statistical sample that are bent towards using criminal techniques to achive their ends.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #21 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Chris wasn't "rationaliz[ing]" the anti-abortion terror campaign as "as being a consequence of historical and current, real and perceived injustices and inequities", he spent post after post trying trying to put it in a good light,

Wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by giant
claiming that people were making arguments they weren't making

Wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by giant
and overtly sympathizing with the terrorist goals using the rhetoric they use.

You call abortion clinic bomber, arsonists and abortion doctor murders terrorists. I agreed. I simply pointed out that if you want to use this "rhetoric", then I will call abortion what it is. Murder. If that is too uncomfortable a fact for you to deal with, don't blame me.
post #22 of 119
7/10/05 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Chris wasn't "rationaliz[ing]" the anti-abortion terror campaign ...

When you made the comment "Good thing you are a christian defending christian terrorists. If you were a muslim talking making similar comments about al-qaeda... I did not realize you were directing it at Chris. Your previous post regarding defending the killing of abortion practitioners was directed at dmz and I thought this one was too. I did not find any of DMZ statements to be made in defense of the killings or actions, hence by reply to your post.

I would still hold to the belief that if made comments that defended or tried to justfy the killings of abortion doctors, you would rage against me, and very rightfully so. But, somehow, I do not envision your putting as much energy into ripping into someone that was to defend or justify terrorism by muslims. Not say you would agree with them, but you don't seem the sort that would speak out against them actively.

As always giant, I hold you in pretty high regard, though I don't think we would ever agree on a damn thing.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #23 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Don't respond to me with a quote from someone else, particularly when you are attempting to avoid the uncomfortable fact that christian views and rhetoric cause, inspire, encourage and provide the justification for these anti-abortion terror attacks, just like muslim terrorism and its corresponding rhetoric.

umm....given that this is the comment I was replying to, that reply was the one you disagreed with it, it seems reasonable to bring it in.

It is after all, the quaote that I said was a weak arguement, to which you replied that it was not.

Now, a pastor calling for the congregation to pray for the unborn fetus, the pregnant mothers and the doctors performing the abortions, would hardly be in the same class of 'causing' violence as a imam calling for martyrs and jihad. On one side, you would have to twist the teachings pretty well, to justify violence. On the other, you have young people being directly, instructed and encouraged to commit violence as a duty.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #24 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
agian, gaint, body count for body count, dollar for dollar of destroyed property you cannot even begin to compare these two.

Don't bring up the same tired argument from pages ago.

1) until 9/11, terrorist attacks by christians caused more damage and took more lives in the US than the only muslim one.

2) As I pointed out earlier, defenders always look for ways to frame an issue in their favor. I guess al-qaeda should say, "well, we only attacked you 1/18 (or 1/200+ depending on what you count) the number of times as anti-abortion terrorists, so we aren't as bad." Dishonest people always try to find a way to put uncomfortable facts in a pleasant light.

Quote:
That is is a completely unsupportable statement.

bullshit, dmz. Christians commit religious violence all the time. Africa, india, etc, etc
Quote:
again, you're dodging the legitimate point that in any particular group, you are going to have memebers who act in a criminal way -- and that the inicidence of "christians" who act illegally is a not above this level.

Really? There are all sorts of groups in the US conducting campaigns of bombing, arson and murder as a result of their ideology and rhetoric? No, there aren't, and your argument is ridiculous.
post #25 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Wrong. Wrong. You call abortion clinic bomber, arsonists and abortion doctor murders terrorists. I agreed. I simply pointed out that if you want to use this "rhetoric", then I will call abortion what it is. Murder. If that is too uncomfortable a fact for you to deal with, don't blame me.

your posts are right there. Don't play that asinine, amateur game.
post #26 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
I would still hold to the belief that if made comments that defended or tried to justfy the killings of abortion doctors, you would rage against me, and very rightfully so. But, somehow, I do not envision your putting as much energy into ripping into someone that was to defend or justify terrorism by muslims. Not say you would agree with them, but you don't seem the sort that would speak out against them actively.

From the previous page:
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Note that my only positions here is that these wingers are totally hypocritical when it comes to terrorism and that they hide the fact that many of them actually sympathize with the terrorist campaingn that has accounted for the largest number of attacks in the US by far. When christians make arguments along the lines of "muslims use terrorism because islam (or even radical islam) is backwards and primitive," it's willfully ignores the fact that christians account for the vast, vast bulk of terror attacks in the US in recent decades.

In other words, your assumptions and inferences about my beliefs are dead wrong, tulkas.
post #27 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
umm....given that this is the comment I was replying to, that reply was the one you disagreed with it, it seems reasonable to bring it in.

It is after all, the quaote that I said was a weak arguement, to which you replied that it was not.

Why do you find it necessary to play stupid games?!?! There were two things he mentioned in his quote: anti-homosexuality rhetoric and anti-abortion rhetoric. You made a blanket condemnation. I responded about the anti-abortion rhetoric and you responded to me talking only about the homosexuality. WTF?! Can't you keep track of your own posts?
post #28 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Bullshit. your posts are right there. Don't play that asinine, amateur game.

I guess you'll see what you want to see...and that is it.

Let me see if I can summarize what you appear to see:

1. Anti-abortion Christians are extremists and terrorists that bomb and burn down abortion clinics and murder abortion doctors.

2. Abortion is not murder and anyone that refers to it this way must be an anti-abortion extremist Christian that advocates and supports the bombing and burning of abortion clinics and the murdering of abortion doctors.

3. That I personally condone, encourage, agree to and support the bombing and burning of abotion clinics and the murdering of abortion doctors.

4. The bombing and burning of abortion clinics and the murdering of abortion doctors is a far, far worse brand of terrorism than the current islamic variety.
post #29 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
From the previous page:

In other words, your assumptions and inferences about my beliefs are dead wrong, tulkas.

Where in your quote did you counter by belief that you would actively speak out against defenders of muslim terror?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #30 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:28pm
Well, I guess you will just have to wait until people come on appleinsider defending and sympathizing with muslim terrorists and their goals like we have people here defending and sympathizing with christian terrorists and goals.. Until then I guess you'll continue to have your ridiculous, asinine and unsupported beliefs.
post #31 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Christians commit religious violence all the time.

I'll make this easy for you giant, find me a denomination that sponsors, or condones, this violence. Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, etc.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #32 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Why do you find it necessary to play stupid games?!?! There were two things he mentioned in his quote: anti-homosexuality rhetoric and anti-abortion rhetoric. You made a blanket condemnation. I responded about the anti-abortion rhetoric and you responded to me talking only about the homosexuality. WTF?! Can't you keep track of your own posts?

Okeedoeky, let's bring in abortion too. A belief system that finds abortion and homosexuality wrong, can hardly be blamed for causing violence against those acts, especially when that same belief system actively speaks out against social violence.

You say "
It's not weak. They both employ the same "murder of innocents" (fetuses, palestinian children, etc) rhetoric that inspires and encourages their respective terrorist wings."
I would really have great difficulty comparing the two. I believe abortion and homosexuality are wrong. I would never condon violence against these two groups. Simply believing them to be wrong, does not lead to someone committing violent acts against them unless that person is unbalance to begin with. Christians often disagree with drunkeness and adultery. I haven't heard of them burning down discos, places they could find a lot of both.

Now contrast that with groups of young men being directly told that it is their duty and obligation, not just to believe that something is wrong, but to commit horrendous violent acts against it. In these cases, it is not always matter of them being crzay, but a sense of duty, and direct instructions from those in positions of authority. Germans were not en masse pyschopathic, yet as a people, were convinced it was their duty to commit horrific acts to correct injustices against their people. Young muslim men are similarly being convinced to commit awful acts, by some of their religious leaders, who openly call on them to commit the acts. I have a lot easier time seeing the open direction to commit the acts leading to the acts, than a belief that certain things are wrong leading to violence against specific groups.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #33 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Well, I guess you will just have to wait until people come on appleinsider defending and sympathizing with muslim terrorists and their goals like we have people here defending and sympathizing with christian terrorists and goals.. Until then I guess you'll continue to have your ridiculous, asinine and unsupported beliefs.

I think this covers your accusations that some here were defending or justifying 'Christian terrorism': "... downplaying the significance of the terror campaign and its destruction, trying to put it in a good light, ... making and overtly sympathizing and identifying with the terrorists' goals using the rhetoric they use."
Regarding muslim terrorists, do you honest believe that some here have not made statements that would conform to this?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

post #34 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'll make this easy for you giant, find me a denomination that sponsors, or condones, this violence. Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, etc.

What do I care whether a denomonation currently condones it? It doesn't change the fact that christians have committed the vast, vast bulk of terror attacks in the US and find inspiration and justification from mainstream christian rhetoric and propaganda while finding sympathy and support from many more christians, even people on this forum. Many american christians promote a bigotted ideology that inspires and provides justification for the vast majority of terror attacks in the US.
post #35 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What do I care whether a denomonation currently condones it? It doesn't change the fact that christians have committed the vast, vast bulk of terror attacks in the US and find inspiration and justification from mainstream christian rhetoric and propaganda while finding sympathy and support from many more christians, even people on this forum. Many american christians promote a bigotted ideology that inspires and provides justification for the vast majority of terror attacks in the US.

Evading the question?

The bottom line is that the vast majority (90-99%) of Christians in America do not condone terrorism of any kind.

You are confused. You think because someone calls some act wrong (e.g., abortion), by extension, that same someone must support violent means to eliminate the wrong behavior. This is, at best, a fallacious deduction.
post #36 of 119
7/10/05 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Okeedoeky, let's bring in abortion too. A belief system that finds abortion and homosexuality wrong, can hardly be blamed for causing violence against those acts, especially when that same belief system actively speaks out against social violence.

Well, it clearly has caused it, so that's that.
Quote:
You say "
It's not weak. They both employ the same "murder of innocents" (fetuses, palestinian children, etc) rhetoric that inspires and encourages their respective terrorist wings."
...Simply believing them to be wrong, does not lead to someone committing violent acts against them unless that person is unbalance to begin with.

What is with you? In case you can't read my quote above, it was about the "abortion is the murder of innocents" rhetoric that parallels the rhetoric that's been behind all terrorism throughout history, including islamic terrorism, not simple personal beliefs. Not that I disagree with the irrelevant point you made.
Quote:
Now contrast that with groups of young men being directly told that it is their duty and obligation, not just to believe that something is wrong, but to commit horrendous violent acts against it. In these cases, it is not always matter of them being crzay, but a sense of duty, and direct instructions from those in positions of authority. Germans were not en masse pyschopathic, yet as a people, were convinced it was their duty to commit horrific acts to correct injustices against their people. Young muslim men are similarly being convinced to commit awful acts, by some of their religious leaders, who openly call on them to commit the acts. I have a lot easier time seeing the open direction to commit the acts leading to the acts, than a belief that certain things are wrong leading to violence against specific groups.

But somehow christians still account for the vast, vast bulk of terror attacks in the US.
post #37 of 119
7/10/05 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The bottom line is that the vast majority (90-99%) of Christians in America do not condone terrorism of any kind.

You are confused. You think because someone calls some act wrong (e.g., abortion), by extension, that same someone must support violent means to eliminate the wrong behavior. This is, at best, a fallacious deduction.

Really? Or maybe you are the confused one making a "fallacious deduction" from my comments and arguing with your imagination.
post #38 of 119
7/10/05 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Really? Or maybe you are the confused one making a "fallacious deduction" from my comments and arguing with your imagination.

It seems that this is exactly what you think or are arguing. If not...feel free to reply to the 4 points I posted above and deny or refute each of them. Here they are for your convenience:

1. Anti-abortion Christians are extremists and terrorists that bomb and burn down abortion clinics and murder abortion doctors.

2. Abortion is not murder and anyone that refers to it this way must be an anti-abortion extremist Christian that advocates and supports the bombing and burning of abortion clinics and the murdering of abortion doctors.

3. That I personally condone, encourage, agree to and support the bombing and burning of abotion clinics and the murdering of abortion doctors.

4. The bombing and burning of abortion clinics and the murdering of abortion doctors is a far, far worse brand of terrorism than the current islamic variety.

Do you agree with all of these statements or not?
post #39 of 119
7/10/05 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
It seems

Maybe you should figure out that "seems" is a result of an assumption you are making. Don't live your life by assumptions. It's probably why you are so consistently wrong.

And don't make requests after calling names like "moron" and "idiot." Who do you think you are?
post #40 of 119
7/10/05 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Maybe you should figure out that "seems" is a result of an assumption you are making. Don't live your life by assumptions. It's probably why you are so consistently wrong.

And don't make requests after calling names like "moron" and "idiot." Who do you think you are?

Well, we all live our lives by assumptions.

What am I wrong about exactly...so consistently?

If you don't want to refute those statements, then perhaps they all do reflect exactly what you believe.

Regarding the "moron" and "idiot" comments...I'm sorry. I was out of line.
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