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Christian Terror - Muslim Terror - Page 2  

post #41 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
If you don't want to refute those statements, then perhaps they all do reflect exactly what you believe.

"If you don't answer my questions I'm going to believe x." You aren't going to get very far by threatening to hold asinine beliefs.
post #42 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
If you don't want to refute those statements, then perhaps they all do reflect exactly what you believe.

Nobody have those opinions Chris. You've constructed yourself an illusion here.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #43 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
You aren't going to get very far by threatening to hold asinine beliefs.


+++
eye
bee
BEE
eye
bee
BEE
post #44 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
The sad part, is that who knows, you could be right, maybe it was the jews. The tragic part is that there are dozens of potentially more reasonable and more likely explainations, including islamist radicals, but you latch onto the first that mentions Israel and and are completely to accept or twist anything to then fit this concept.

For instance, in your first post in this thread, regarding the website claim of responsibility, you quote "that the statement in which the group claimed responsibility for the attacks contained an error in one of the Quranic verses it cited" from which you conclude "An obviously fake "al qaeda" "admission", full of Koranic errors and misspellings etc, from a website, the URL of which has NOT remains unknown and remains unpublished." Nice leap.

Please, give a rest.

To the Londoners and Brits here, on both sides on our little political debates, I remain amazed at the strength and resolution of you and you countrymen.

I agree 100%. Theres a reason there is a 'Great' in front of Britain.
post #45 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
"The christian church positions on Homosexuality and abortion are the root causes of most violence towards gays and abortion doctors - I count that as support of violence."

Now, again, back on point, if the christian church position on homosexuality is the root cause of violence towards gays, how does one then explain violence against gays from non-christian people? If it is the root cause, then by definition, it is the original cause. That would make explaining it from non-christians difficult. How about in entirely non-christian cultures? How about pre-christian cultures? Can the effect happen before the cause? or without the cause?

christian position -> root cause of christian violence against gays

hindu position -> root cause of hindu violence against gays

etc.

I know that this is the case, becuse there does not seem to be anyone else with an anti-gay agenda. You need a root cause, because there have been plenty of cultures where gay people were social acceptable and not the target of violence just for being gay.
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post #46 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
No one is ignoring anything except that you wont acknowledge that one religion is wired in a way that drifts it towards violence and the other is not. One religion basically has a Denomination that is causing/supporting/believes in mass casualty attacks and the other has fringe groups that no denomination will support that cause sporadic violence that doesn't even register above normal crime statistics.

Come on, giant, we have a problem with several whole factions of Islam, On the order of a whole Christian denomination or two. There is no comparison.

There is no comparison.
Giant, find us whole Christian denominations that advocate violence against abortion providers and carry it out.
What is the Pope's position on the violence? Billy Grahams? The Christian right? Are they attacking people based on their religion? Are they attacking people based on their nationality?

Its a completely different story. There is no excuse for abortion clinic violence, but it is a different discussion.
post #47 of 119
Quote:
The bottom line is that the vast majority (90-99%) of Christians in America do not condone terrorism of any kind.

But 100% of the people blowing up abortion clinics are Christians. It is part of the christian culture, just not all-pervasive in the culture.

It is the Christian equivalent of Mormon bigamy (practiced by 2%, supported by 20%).
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post #48 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Well, as pointed out 100 times in this thread, the vast, vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US have been committed by christian terrorists that many american christians sympathize with.

But on top of that christianity has been a violent religion from the beginning, not just during the inquisition and crusades (but those certainly are very significant), and we still have christian violence across the world in modern times.

Since when do psychological and political impact of crimes show up in "crime statistics?" Don't try to avoid the fact that your point about "crime statistics" was flawed by bringing up something unrelated to "crime statistics."

It's a terror campaign by any definition. Funny (well, actually scary) how terrorists become simple "criminals" when you agree with them, dmz.

Really, many American Chrisitans sympathize? You took a poll?
Christianity isn't the problem anymore, the religion has matured into what it was supposed to be about. Just listen to the Pope, Billy graham, et al. Sure there are some right wing nutjobs out there, but on the whole, Christianity has matured.

Right now, Islam is the problem. Just like Christinaity it is going through a growing phase, where different factions need to battle for supremacy. Right now, unfortunately the radicals have the upper hand because the moderates aren't speaking out against terrorism forcefully enough, if at all.

There needs to be a Muslim awakening, where en masse they rise up and say Enough is enough! Violence of any kind is unacceptable, outside of war.

I think it will happen, but its not there yet. It could take decades.
post #49 of 119
Quote:
Christianity isn't the problem anymore, the religion has matured into what it was supposed to be about. Just listen to the Pope, Billy graham, et al. Sure there are some right wing nutjobs out there, but on the whole, Christianity has matured.

Really? After 2000 years of barbarism, things just settled down in the last 5 years?

Bullshit. Just listen to Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell.

Christianity has changed a lot since the 1940s, when church leaders were calling for people to kill Negros, but not enough to justify your statement.
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post #50 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Did that one hit too close to home? Sorry. But, you know very well, that when people, on these very boards, rationalize or defend terrorist acts by islamists, they and their arguements are readily and warmly embraced by the left.

So, when you make an open-ended statement like "Good thing you are a christian defending christian terrorists. If you were a muslim talking making similar comments about al-qaeda... then I think I found a suitable and truthful ending to the statement.

Regarding the 'christians' who commit acts of terror. I would say hunt them and prosecute them or kill them in the attempt. I would say their justifications are wrong and that we, as a society need to do nothing to adjust our practices or policies to appease them. At the same time, I would support their peaceful attempts to affect policies.

Regarding 'Islamic' terrorists who commit acts of terror. I would say hunt them and prosecute them or kill them in the attempt. I would say their justifications are wrong and that we, as a society need to do nothing to adjust our practices or policies to appease them. At the same time, I would support their peaceful attempts to affect policies.

Now, on the left, those two statements would never be said unconditionally. On the left, we would be told that western poilicy must be examined and changed to eliminate the causes of the 'Islamic' terrorist.

You just hit the nail on the head
post #51 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Really, many American Chrisitans sympathize? You took a poll?

Ah, the variation of the old "have you ever been to Israel?" argument, i.e., if you haven't been to a given place, you have no right to speak on the subject.

No, he hasn't conducted a poll, so he is therefore only able to be wrong?



Did you take a poll yourself? Of American Christians? Of Muslims? Of Iraqis?

It's going to get real quiet on "both" sides with those ludicrous requirements.

There is such a thing as a reasonable inference. It's a useful tool, provided you stress the "reasonable" part.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
post #52 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Again you are obviously incapable of having a serious discussion. The facts show you are wrong. People on the left and right had nearly identical views about retaliating against the terror attacks.

The dangerous "fringe" is not on the left. Terror attacks in the US in recent decades have been almost exclusively committed by christians and other right-wing ideologues (with the exeception of (2 - 5 by muslims, depending on how you count 9/11). Terror victims have been almost exclusively liberal (abortion clinics, manhattan).

That is assinine. People aren't afraid to fly, or take a subway or bus because of crazed anti-abortion terrorists.

The Muslim terrorists are trying to kill as many people at one time as they can. They aren't bombing buidings, they arent trying to kill a certain person they feel wronged them, their only goal is to kill and maim as many men, women, and children as they possibly can.
Neither is excusable of course, but there is a BIG difference.
post #53 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Christianity isn't the problem anymore, the religion has matured into what it was supposed to be about. Just listen to the Pope, Billy graham, et al. Sure there are some right wing nutjobs out there, but on the whole, Christianity has matured.

Right now, Islam is the problem. Just like Christinaity it is going through a growing phase, where different factions need to battle for supremacy. Right now, unfortunately the radicals have the upper hand because the moderates aren't speaking out against terrorism forcefully enough, if at all.

There needs to be a Muslim awakening, where en masse they rise up and say Enough is enough! Violence of any kind is unacceptable, outside of war.

I think it will happen, but its not there yet. It could take decades.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam*: The Unholy Trinity.
All violent. All hypocritical. All hateful. All ignorant. All controlling. Any of the goodness often associated with them are instead universal human truths that none of the three can claim ownership of. Break free from them, their lies, their myths and their poisons. They can only grasp you as hard as you grasp them. Let go. Be the peace that they tempt you with and use as bait. Defy these supra-governments.

Fear, hate, greed stop now if you want them to.

(*Listed in order of age).
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
post #54 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Really? After 2000 years of barbarism, things just settled down in the last 5 years?

Bullshit. Just listen to Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell.

Christianity has changed a lot since the 1940s, when church leaders were calling for people to kill Negros, but not enough to justify your statement.

Not just the last 5 years. Robertson and Falwell are televangelists, and even though they have a fairly large flock, I dont consider them mainstream Christian denominations.
post #55 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Ah, the variation of the old "have you ever been to Israel?" argument, i.e., if you haven't been to a given place, you have no right to speak on the subject.

No, he hasn't conducted a poll, so he is therefore only able to be wrong?



Did you take a poll yourself? Of American Christians? Of Muslims? Of Iraqis?

It's going to get real quiet on "both" sides with those ludicrous requirements.

There is such a thing as a reasonable inference. It's a useful tool, provided you stress the "reasonable" part.

And that was not a reasonable inference.
post #56 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Judaism, Christianity, Islam*: The Unholy Trinity.
All violent. All hypocritical. All hateful. All ignorant. All controlling. Any of the goodness often associated with them are instead universal human truths that none of the three can claim ownership of. Break free from them, their lies, their myths and their poisons. They can only grasp you as hard as you grasp them. Let go. Be the peace that they tempt you with and use as bait. Defy these supra-governments.

Fear, hate, greed stop now if you want them to.

(*Listed in order of age).

I'm not religious at all, personally. I think the world would be better off without any religion.
post #57 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Not just the last 5 years. Robertson and Falwell are televangelists, and even though they have a fairly large flock, I dont consider them mainstream Christian denominations.

They have 44% market share in the US:

http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html

And I agree with you about no religion.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Of course, I completely disagree with the rest of the commie pinko song though...
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post #58 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Judaism, Christianity, Islam*: The Unholy Trinity.
All violent. All hypocritical. All hateful. All ignorant. All controlling. Any of the goodness often associated with them are instead universal human truths that none of the three can claim ownership of. Break free from them, their lies, their myths and their poisons. They can only grasp you as hard as you grasp them. Let go. Be the peace that they tempt you with and use as bait. Defy these supra-governments.

Fear, hate, greed stop now if you want them to.

(*Listed in order of age).

Hear, Hear!
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #59 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
They have 44% market share in the US:

http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html

And I agree with you about no religion.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Of course, I completely disagree with the rest of the commie pinko song though...

Not all evangelicals follow those two, although those numbers don't make me feel too comfortable.
post #60 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Not all evangelicals follow those two, although those numbers don't make me feel too comfortable.

Me either, hence my "what is the best english speaking country " thread earlier.
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post #61 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
I'm not religious at all, personally. I think the world would be better off without any religion.

Were that these three were religions instead of the selfish quasi-governmental systems of mass-control that they are.

I'm not anti-religion, I've learned.

I just don't think the Abrahamic 3 qualify as religions, at the moment.

Where is the non-violent promotion of peace?
Where is the equanimity?
Where is the selflessness of the hierarchies and leaders?

The Big 3 hang over their respective secular counterparts like storm clouds, letting the armies and people below battle it out for mindshare of their religion.

The Big 3 stay silent, hoping the worldly military conflicts will further spread and solidify their own religion's hold over the affected people without their needing to lift a finger.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
post #62 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Were that these three were religions instead of the selfish quasi-governmental systems of mass-control that they are.

I'm not anti-religion, I've learned.

I just don't think the Abrahamic 3 qualify as religions, at the moment.

Where is the non-violent promotion of peace?
Where is the equanimity?
Where is the selflessness of the hierarchies and leaders?

The Big 3 hang over their respective secular counterparts like storm clouds, letting the armies and people below battle it out for mindshare of their religion.

The Big 3 stay silent, hoping the worldly military conflicts will further spread and solidify their own religion's hold over the affected people without their needing to lift a finger.

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


Check on all four counts.

And, talking about selflessness, remember that the Dali Lama was in the pay of the CIA for many years...
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post #63 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Me either, hence my "what is the best english speaking country " thread earlier.

I missed that thread.
My votes go to England and Australia
post #64 of 119
As the Uncle of Latka Gravis once said:

The only thing seperating humans from animals are silly superstitions and pointless rituals.
post #65 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


Check on all four counts.

Sad, that that's your only requirement.

Where is the non-violent promotion of peace?
Where is the equanimity?
Where is the selflessness of the hierarchies and leaders?

J/C/I are N/A on all counts.

Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
And, talking about selflessness, remember that the Dali Lama was in the pay of the CIA for many years...

This has to do with what? The (14th) Dali Lama != "the Pope of Buddhism". Thinking so is as inaccurate as saying Pope Benedict XIV is the "leader of the Protestants".

"Buddhism" is not merely the Dali Lama or merely "Tibetan" Buddhism.

But in so far as any Buddhist leader is human, sure, they too can be imperfect, no arguing.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
post #66 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Nobody have those opinions Chris. You've constructed yourself an illusion here.

I'm not so sure. Giant has refused to deny it...and many of his posts imply that this is exactly what he thinks.

Since a flat out denial would be easier that tossing mud...it looks like a safe assumption on my part.
post #67 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
You aren't going to get very far by threatening to hold asinine beliefs.
post #68 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
But 100% of the people blowing up abortion clinics are Christians. It is part of the christian culture, just not all-pervasive in the culture.

It is the Christian equivalent of Mormon bigamy (practiced by 2%, supported by 20%).

Let's take a look at that statement.

Part of 'Christian culture' but you refuse to supply a denominiation that supports this? Are you kidding -- no denomination supports pro-life violence (there's an oxymoron for you) but it is still 'part of the culture'.

Also, from the NAF site you have 82,000ish acts of violence and disruptions.

82% were picketing.

12% were "hate mail and harassing phone calls" "vandalism", tresspassing and stink-bomb (butyric acid) attacks, etc. 2,100 incidents in 26 years.

then there are the big ones:

7 murders
17 attempted murders
3 cases of kidnapping

so we have a total of 2,127 'incidents' in that are violent by anyone's standards.

2,127 incidents in 26 years with a population of 200-300 million people in the U.S with at least half being 'christian'.

Now, I'm going to do you a favor and say that all theses incidents happened in one imaginary year and that at least 2 people were involved in each incident. Oh, what the heck. we'll say there were 5,000 people involved in theses incidents.

That gives you .003% of the population of Christians who were involved with this. Spread it out over the real 26 years and Multiply it by 100 and you still have nothing to offer except a paranoid, bigoted stereotype to sell.

Contrast this with the fact that The National Church Arson Task Force (NCATF) of the BATF and the FBI has documented 827 actual and attempted arsons and bombings of churches and synagogues during the period January 1, 1995 to October 5, 1999. Then compare this to the NAF's number of 61 actual and attempted arsons and bombings at abortion mills during the same period. In other words, for every abortion mill that is torched, fourteen churches and synagogues burn.

For a fuller picture of violence in 1993-97 America go here:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/aexis2//qbyfatals1.html

or here:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/gen_pub/repor...ix1_charts.pdf

or here:
http://www.atf.gov/press/fy00press/091500ncatf4th.htm

It would seem that the "bulk of terrorist attacks" don't come from "christians" after all --- perhaps it is the hate speech, bigotry and false stereotypes incubated on places like AI that we should be afraid of.

No substitute for the facts, people.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #69 of 119
From the national church arson task force report:
Quote:
As reflected by the list of convictions attached as Appendix 2, the arsons -- at both African American and other houses of worship -- were motivated by multiple factors, including racism and religious hatred. Arsonists have burned churches for other reasons, including opportunistic and random vandalism, pyromania, mental health disturbances, feuding with ministers, retribution against religious authorities, parking or neighborhood disputes, covering up of burglaries, and financial profit. In some cases, the arsonists claimed they believed the church to be an abandoned building.

So it's a bunch of crimes with a huge range of motives, not a terror campaign committed by people with a common political and religious goal, as is the case with the anti-abortion terrorists.

Thanks, though, for giving us another example of you guys trying to sweep it under the rug, not that we need more proof of your hypocrisy.
post #70 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
From the national church arson task force report:

So it's a bunch of crimes with a huge range of motives, not a terror campaign committed by people with a common political and religious goal, as is the case with the anti-abortion terrorists. You fail.

You asked to substantiate your claims that this violence is institutionalized. And you balked.

You are presented the facts from the BATF that the violence against abortion mills is a fraction of the violence on the national average. And you ingore it.

You are presented with the the facts that a tiny 1/100 of 1% of 'christians' are involved with this violence. And you still insist that this is a 'christian' problem, and a "terror campaign".

The incidence of Church/Synogoge violence is 13 times that of abortion mills and it just "a bunch of crimes with a huge range of motives".

Come back to reality. You're safer in an abortion mill than in a house of worship.

No giant, you fail, by spreading this nonsense and bigotry.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #71 of 119
Has anyone mentioned that a significant amount of the terrorism in the latter half of the 20th century was between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland?

You know, you folks wouldn't have to be so defensive about Christian terrorism if you hadn't spent so much time arguing that Islam is a terrorist religion. You'd simply be able to say "yup, that's bad too, it's all bad," and leave it at that.

But the reason you can't is that you have so much invested in this argument that the individuals who commit terrorism are in the mainstream of their religion and their theology itself is corrupt. How about you simply not make that argument, and that way it can't be turned against you?
post #72 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You asked to substantiate your claims that this violence is institutionalized. And you balked.

I specifically addressed it. The fact is that there have been far, far, far more terrorist attacks in the US committed by christians because of their christians beliefs than by muslims, and you've done everything you can to skirt that simple, cold hard fact.
Quote:
You are presented the facts from the BATF that the violence against abortion mills is a fraction of the violence on the national average. And you ingore it.

As is all terrorism. Hell, until 2001, muslim terrorism was barely a blip on the US terrorism stats, much less the crime stats.
Quote:
You are presented with the the facts that a tiny 1/100 of 1% of 'christians' are involved with this violence. And you still insist that this is a 'christian' problem, and a "terror campaign".

It's terror campaign by every definition, so don't play stupid games with quote marks. And it's not about being a "'christian' problem," it's about the fact that there have been far, far, far more terrorist attacks in the US committed by christians because of their christians beliefs than by muslims, and you refuse to acknowledge this fact or its implications to your worldview.
Quote:
The incidence of Church/Synogoge violence is 13 times that of abortion mills and it just "a bunch of crimes with a huge range of motives".

Don't blame me for the facts disproving your false beliefs. you only have yourself to blame for that.
post #73 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Has anyone mentioned that a significant amount of the terrorism in the latter half of the 20th century was between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland?

You know, you folks wouldn't have to be so defensive about Christian terrorism if you hadn't spent so much time arguing that Islam is a terrorist religion. You'd simply be able to say "yup, that's bad too, it's all bad," and leave it at that.

But the reason you can't is that you have so much invested in this argument that the individuals who commit terrorism are in the mainstream of their religion and their theology itself is corrupt. How about you simply not make that argument, and that way it can't be turned against you?

Well, would you say that the Wahabbi sect is a corrupt theology? They have been teaching hatred and violence for decades.
Do you not agree that there have been no decrying of terrorism of any kind from any of the major Muslim religious leaders, nor an outright condemnation of terrorism?
post #74 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Do you not agree that there have been no decrying of terrorism of any kind from any of the major Muslim religious leaders, nor an outright condemnation of terrorism?

You mean, like the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia who said of 9/11 "..hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts" or muslim leaders in britain this week, or any of the other thousands of muslim leaders and scholars who have spoken out against terrorist attacks?

Let me know when you guys are going to make arguments based on facts and not your own biased imaginations.
post #75 of 119
Because it bears repeating
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Has anyone mentioned that a significant amount of the terrorism in the latter half of the 20th century was between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland?

You know, you folks wouldn't have to be so defensive about Christian terrorism if you hadn't spent so much time arguing that Islam is a terrorist religion. You'd simply be able to say "yup, that's bad too, it's all bad," and leave it at that.

But the reason you can't is that you have so much invested in this argument that the individuals who commit terrorism are in the mainstream of their religion and their theology itself is corrupt. How about you simply not make that argument, and that way it can't be turned against you?
post #76 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
You mean, like the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia who said of 9/11 "..hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts" or muslim leaders in britain this week, or any of the other thousands of muslim leaders and scholars who have spoken out against terrorist attacks?

Let me know when you guys are going to make arguments based on facts and not your own biased imaginations.

Isn't Saudi Arabia the country that is spreading the Wahabbi hatred? Isn't that Mufti the one in control of the the religious teachings in Saudi Arabia?

A little dose of hypocrisy ain't it?
post #77 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Well, would you say that the Wahabbi sect is a corrupt theology? They have been teaching hatred and violence for decades.

Then why are the Saudi Royal Family such darlings to the Bush Royal Family? Shouldn't we "spread freedom/liberty/democracy" there too?

If you're damning the sect for any 9-11/Bin Laden reasons, Bin Laden is a allegedly a "Qutbee (follower of Sayyed Qutb), due to his rebellion against the rulers of Saudi Arabia."

But I see no difference between fundamentalist Christian, Judaism or Islam if they all could get away with what they really really want to lay down on the people if they could get away with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Do you not agree that there have been no decrying of terrorism of any kind from any of the major Muslim religious leaders, nor an outright condemnation of terrorism?

Are you even looking for it? That the U.S. media doesn't cover it doesn't mean it's not out there. Plus "major Muslim religious leaders" is an oxymoron. There is far less centralized leadership in Islam than in other religions.
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
"The Roots of Violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics...
post #78 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Isn't Saudi Arabia the country that is spreading the Wahabbi hatred? Isn't that Mufti the one in control of the the religious teachings in Saudi Arabia?

A little dose of hypocrisy ain't it?

So are you saying it's hypocritical for christian leaders to condemn anti-abortion bombings while promoting the cause it's based on?
post #79 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
From the national church arson task force report:

So it's a bunch of crimes with a huge range of motives, not a terror campaign committed by people with a common political and religious goal, as is the case with the anti-abortion terrorists.

Thanks, though, for giving us another example of you guys trying to sweep it under the rug, not that we need more proof of your hypocrisy.

Its kind of like the Cathloc priest buggery mess. When you just keep sweeping stuff under the rug, and not admitting it is a problem in your own group, then you end up poisoning the whole group's reputation.

dmz - if the various christian churches wanted to avoid being tarred with this brush, they should wage an ongoing campaign against the abortion bombers instead of continuing to preach against "murdering doctors".

and dmz - there are a whole lot more churches out there than abortion clinics. The percentage is what matters - a higher percentage of the clinics are bombed or burned, and you are NOT safer in one than in a church.
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #80 of 119
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
I specifically addressed it, liar.

no giant, you have not addressed this -- I asked you to show me which denomination is supporting this, and you told me "who cares".

giant, 1/100 of 1% of "christians" is below the incidence of "normal" levels of crime, bombings, etc. How do you indentify a "terror campaign" that gets lost in the nation's crime statitics?

Would you like me to start quoting anti-prolife violence numbers? Maybe the numbers of live babies killed in abortion clinics? Cars driven into pro-life picketers?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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