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More Terror in London 7/21, Low Casualties

post #1 of 56
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100477_pf.html


Not as bad, but still bad.
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post #2 of 56
My initial reaction to this was, copycat. But I heard a report from either FoxNews or MSNBC that said the same type of residue from the bus blast two weeks ago was found on today's bus. So this could be a concerted effort.

I also heard that a Pakistani man was detained because he had 20 plus phone calls over a short period of time with one of the terrorists from the first London attack...but that was reported as unconfirmed. If true this could provide some good intel.
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post #3 of 56
It involved detonators only, according to Scotland Yard. Thank heavens nobody was killed, but it was intended to have the exact same effect desired by the perps, as happened in the 7/7 attacks: fear, fear and more fear. Fear is what terrorists instill in a population (like, duh): A fearful populace are very easily controlled, the terrorists know this. And when the people lose control of their own destiny to a hostile party, its all over. Lets hope the Brits don't swallow the dope, like we did here in the US, wholesale, in the wake of 911.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #4 of 56
2 or 3 in custody. This could be a major breakthrough. Not just into the terrorist network but also in what social mechanisms makes native born brits try suicide attempts.

Looking forward going to Berlin in a couple of weeks. I´ll rather take the metro there than here right now.
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post #5 of 56
I don't think terrorism work : great britain will never give up, because of this people. Terrorism as more to do with the feeling of power : power to kill, power to frighten than anything else.

The reason behind terrorism is domination, in the most violent and cruel way. It lead nowhere except more violence and more hate.
post #6 of 56
If the Nazis couldn't break GB terrorists sure as hell won't.

Quote:
"An Italian young man ... said a man was carrying a rucksack (that) suddenly exploded, a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack, and the man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong and ... everyone rushed off the carriage."

Damn right something went wrong, the wiring in that man's head is bad wrong.
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post #7 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Damn right something went wrong, the wiring in that man's head is bad wrong.

Let's expect that this man did not wear the Intel inside logo
post #8 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Lets hope the Brits don't swallow the dope, like we did here in the US, wholesale, in the wake of 911.

Unlike the US, the UK has been subject to terrorist bombings by the IRA for 30 years. I dont think they are about to massively over react.
post #9 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by mmmpie
Unlike the US, the UK has been subject to terrorist bombings by the IRA for 30 years. I dont think they are about to massively over react.

Not sure, but are you suggesting that we (the US) have over reacted?
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post #10 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Not sure, but are you suggesting that we (the US) have over reacted?

The writer is suggesting that the US government "over-reacted" based on the much touted, but absurd and untenable notion that the 9-11 attacks (as well as the anthrax incidents) were a surprise. We now know full well that the attacks were absolutely no surprise, in any shape or form, to those in the relevant loop, at that time. There were numerous, if not dozensof well-documented occasions where various departments and agencies knew full well that attacks were going to occur, and in the case of the FBI, accurate knowledge right down to the nature, times, date, and locations of the attacks.

Regarding the anthrax, the extra-high-grade powder originated from Fort Detrick, (eliminating the Islamic/middle eastern connection), and White House staff were ordered to take the antibiotic Cipro on September 11 as a precautionary measure, some 10 days before the first anthrax was delivered.

The over-reactions were by (the large majority of lawmakers) who were (a) out of the loop and (b) swallowed the drivel with nary a question or raised eyebrow.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #11 of 56
Hmm... stepping on the same rake twice...
Well, a few more times and maybe they'll decide to really do something about it.
I just hope that it will not kill many people!
post #12 of 56
They also did WTC twice. And they were far in planning Madrid take two. And thats even AFTER Spain had withdrawn and was declared off the hook by AQ.
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post #13 of 56
Strike three



It doesn´t look good. Luckily it looks like the Bobbies are prepared. Lets hope they continues to be succesful...
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post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Strike three



It doesn´t look good. Luckily it looks like the Bobbies are prepared. Lets hope they continues to be succesful...

In fact this are good news. The police will caught the bombers, and will be able to dismantle the whole group. Londoners will be secure for some times, unless an another team of terrorists will arrise.
post #15 of 56
Hmm. Just saw the press conference from London Police. Sounds like the shooting today could have been a mistake... They didn´t say much about it, just that he had fled when the police tried to stop him...
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post #16 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Hmm. Just saw the press conference from London Police. Sounds like the shooting today could have been a mistake... They didn´t say much about it, just that he had fled when the police tried to stop him...

uh-ho. Civilian clothed police, right?
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post #17 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by New
uh-ho. Civilian clothed police, right?

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post #18 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders

It would be terrible if it was a misstake. Especially since the police have been instructed to shoot suspects in the head.
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post #19 of 56
Apperently they first put him to the ground, then shot him.

"They pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."
witness account.

BBC link.
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post #20 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Apperently they first put him to the ground, then shot him.

"They pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."
witness account.

Yes. If I was a passenger on the train and the police was sure that the person was a risk I would hope and expect them to do as they did. His hands could have released a bomb or he could have resisted long enough for a bomb to go off. But I hope they were really sure in their case. Its not acceptable that one innocent is killed on the basis of a weak suspicion of a danger to a defined number of people. Fleeing from heavy armed police the day after a terrorist attempt does make a good case though...
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post #21 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Yes. If I was a passenger on the train and the police was sure that the person was a risk I would hope and expect them to do as they did. His hands could have released a bomb or he could have resisted long enough for a bomb to go off. But I hope they were really sure in their case. Its not acceptable that one innocent is killed on the basis of a weak suspicion of a danger to a defined number of people. Fleeing from heavy armed police the day after a terrorist attempt does make a good case though...

It is certainly uderstandable, as the police must be under enormous pressure, but it also sets a dangerous precedence.
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post #22 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by New
It is certainly uderstandable, as the police must be under enormous pressure, but it also sets a dangerous precedence.

Agree.

The press briefing surely didn´t give many answers.

And one of the other incidences today: Clear as mud
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post #23 of 56
I am watching news right now and it seems it could have been much worse. There was something wrong with the detonation or it could be a message to the police of what could have happened.

Well I hope, the bloodshed will end.

Edit: The bombs yesterday I mean.
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post #24 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by New
It is certainly uderstandable, as the police must be under enormous pressure, but it also sets a dangerous precedence.

fleeing, trying to escape, resisting arrest and reports of him wearing a belt with wires coming from it would suggest pretty good precedence for the police action
post #25 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Agree.

The press briefing surely didn´t give many answers.

And one of the other incidences today: Clear as mud

I am a bit torn about the whole situation. The police most surely have good reasons to be so secretive right now but on the other hand the books have to be opened pretty soon on what is going on. We have to know what is happening to be able to trust the police.

BTW I am not in London but my city is next on the list so the situation will most likely be similar within a year here...
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post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronxite
fleeing, trying to escape, resisting arrest and reports of him wearing a belt with wires coming from it would suggest pretty good precedence for the police action

Of all that fleeing was the only thing I have heard or read he did.
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post #27 of 56
This is so far the only thing I have heard about the person:

Quote:
1854: Police say the man shot at Stockwell had been followed by surveillance officers because he had emerged from a house linked to the investigation into Thursday's blasts.

They say the man is still subject to formal identification.

BBC
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post #28 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Of all that fleeing was the only thing I have heard or read he did.

from the link directly above

Quote:
He was being under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was being watched following Thursday's attacks, a spokesman said.

The man was followed by surveillance officers to Stockwell station, where his clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions, he added.

Quote:
Sir Ian told a press conference: "I need to make clear that any death is deeply regrettable but as I understand the situation the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."

Quote:
He ran, they followed him. They say they gave him a warning, they then shot him.

Quote:
Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

[
Quote:
"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.
post #29 of 56
It still leaves out trying to escape and resisting arrest, unless those are synonyms for fleeing.

Quote:
Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

Quote:
"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.

I have been following BBC all afternoon, heard 3-4 different witnesses testimony all all agreed that he jumped on the train, stumbled and then the police was over him. None of them saw any bomb-like device or him grabbing a passenger. He had a large coat, that was about it. So I am surprised about this testimony.

But lets see. If the police saw the same as this one person then of course they were justified. If all they did was seeing one man leave a building they had under surveillance, him fleeing when they approached him and then deliberately killed him when they did have his body pressed onto the floor I´ll still reserve my judgment until all the books are opened.
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post #30 of 56
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post #31 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Turns out the man was innocent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...534779,00.html

So he gets shot 5 times for ignoring a cops order to hault, The Terrorist won if you ask me. Same goes for the U.S. and its Patriot Act. Again the Terrorist have won. What makes a free country great is freedom not reactionary breast beating policys that turn everyone into criminals first then asks questions later.
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post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
So he gets shot 5 times for ignoring a cops order to hault, The Terrorist won if you ask me. Same goes for the U.S. and its Patriot Act. Again the Terrorist have won. What makes a free country great is freedom not reactionary breast beating policys that turn everyone into criminals first then asks questions later.

Partially true.

Very unfortunate event and I just wanted to assume that they were justified but clearly they weren't.

The used excessive force and now should be held accountable.

"Freedom" however needs to take a on a different form in this day and age. There is the ideal situation and there is being realistic. Being realistic, some of our former freedoms will be taken away or more regulated. Example: Bag checks on NYC subways. In order to provide a somewhat safer environment, there will need to be changes.
post #33 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronxite
Partially true.

Very unfortunate event and I just wanted to assume that they were justified but clearly they weren't.

The used excessive force and now should be held accountable.

No. They did not necessary use excessive force. It depends on "the rules of engagement". If they followed those the police on the spot only did what they were trained to do. Then the problem is elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bronxite
"Freedom" however needs to take a on a different form in this day and age. There is the ideal situation and there is being realistic. Being realistic, some of our former freedoms will be taken away or more regulated. Example: Bag checks on NYC subways. In order to provide a somewhat safer environment, there will need to be changes.

Freedom: 0
Terrorists: 1
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post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
No. They did not necessary use excessive force. It depends on "the rules of engagement". If they followed those the police on the spot only did what they were trained to do. Then the problem is elsewhere.



Freedom: 0
Terrorists: 1

I find it extremely hard to believe that the "rules of engagement" state that when having a suspect on the floor to blast 5 bullets into his head
post #35 of 56
If he is believed to be an imminent danger to the passengers (carrying a bomb about to go off) as a passenger in the train I would expect them to do as they did. I am prepared to take part in the blame for the mistake that lead to the killing of an innocent man.

The problem enters when you speculate on how they came to that belief. They cast suspicion on him because he leaves a block in which there is a flat under surveillance and because he flee when heavy armed men starts to follow him. It isn´t the five police men who had gone bad in this situation. Its the way they are trained to see people that is wrong.
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post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders

The problem enters when you speculate on how they came to that belief. They cast suspicion on him because he leaves a block in which there is a flat under surveillance and because he flee when heavy armed men starts to follow him. It isn´t the five police men who had gone bad in this situation. Its the way they are trained to see people that is wrong.

ok, I can see your point.
post #37 of 56
Welcome to the Police State. First we let every nut bring over their stupid religion from 2 thousand years ago and then when they do their jihad idiotic nonsense we then treat every innocent person as guilty instead of going after those responsible in the first place. Govt dont care, they all want more power,more say and more taxes.
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post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Welcome to the Police State. First we let every nut bring over their stupid religion from 2 thousand years ago and then when they do their jihad idiotic nonsense we then treat every innocent person as guilty instead of going after those responsible in the first place. Govt dont care, they all want more power,more say and more taxes.

how would you suggest we go about going after those responsible and at the same time not taking away some "freedoms"

personally I dont consider going into a private or government sactioned form of transportation without being checked freedom. but that's me.
post #39 of 56
Am I the only one to notice that these extreme Islamic Loving Fanatics are blowing crap up everywhere? Perhaps start there. What do you think?
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post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronxite
how would you suggest we go about going after those responsible and at the same time not taking away some "freedoms"

personally I dont consider going into a private or government sactioned form of transportation without being checked freedom. but that's me.

Without going into the same rant as Aurora (who make good stew out of immigration, more right to the police and taxes) here is my take.

Look at the incident in London yesterday. A man is shot by the police because, from their point of view, he was probably involved with the terrorists. He is wearing a large coat that could hide a bomb. When he is challenged by the officers he runs away. The police choose to take no chances and shoot to kill, even after having captured him.

But from his point of view the situation is as following: He leaves his flat. He notice some un-uniformed men following him, He may have noticed their guns. They yell at him and he chooses to run away. There could be all kinds of reasons to try to run away. They range from a paranoid mind, it could be that he feared the the family of his girl friend, who had threatened him, it could be he feared repercussions from criminals he owed money. He might have suspected the men to be police officers and chose to flee because he was an illegal alien, he had fled prison or was wanted for rape. We don´t know. But none of those things are accepted as reasons for the policeforce to do as they did.

If the fact that you live in a block of flats that the police have under surveillance makes you suspicious then we all become suspicious since we have no control over the actions of others (a terrorist might look like me, live near me, use the same internet cafe as me etc.) and any slight-besides-normal actions I might do will put me in danger (live in same block as terrorists AND wear a large coat in the summer, Use the same internet cafe AND running from heavily armed men, looking asian AND wearing a rugsack). The reasons why I am put in focus has become arbitrary and from my point of view I then criminalize myself if I don´t conform completely not only the law but also the "normal view of normality".

That gives the police a hell lot of power and I loose a hell lot of freedom. When the police then asks to see my rugsack in a routine check for terrorists, what then if they find an ounce of hash or a stolen mobile phone? As it is now they have to have reasonable and precise suspicion to look through my things (here they actually have to arrest me before they can search me like that). It curtails all the right from random searches that we held so dearly just a year ago. In the 80s it would have been the first argument against Soviet, that they broke with the rights as an individual from random searches by the government, you know, assumed innocent and all that jazz. If there was a way to ensure that the "terror police" only looked for bombs or other terror related articles in my rugsack and didn´t´see the block of hash, the "property of University of Copenhagen"-marked Powerbook and the photocopied manual to Marxist revolution in my bag it would be another story. But we know that that isn´t´gonna happen.

So even if its not the argument the product is a society where if you don´t´live up to a predefined view of normality you automatic come under suspicion. Thats not the society I want to live in.
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