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More Terror in London 7/21, Low Casualties - Page 2

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Am I the only one to notice that these extreme Islamic Loving Fanatics are blowing crap up everywhere? Perhaps start there. What do you think?

Start by reading "Dying to win" and "Dying to kill" and you are halfway there.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Thats not the society I want to live in.

Unfortunately the society we live in is not something any of us want to live in. But reality is reality and ignoring it and trying to live in some false hope of utopia is unrealistic
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
So he gets shot 5 times for ignoring a cops order to hault, The Terrorist won if you ask me. Same goes for the U.S. and its Patriot Act. Again the Terrorist have won. What makes a free country great is freedom not reactionary breast beating policys that turn everyone into criminals first then asks questions later.

The deceased, a Brazilian man, was being chased by three aggressive looking men, who he probably interpreted as thugs. Apparently, the (plainclothes officers by the sound of it) were dressed in a "scruffy" manner, according to witnesses. Who wouldn't be scared in that situation and attempt to escape from a gang of what looked look street hoodlums or muggers? Finally, when the man tripped and fell and was put into secure and restrained custody, pinned down on the ground by two of the police, one of the officers shot him five times. This looks like a clear case of a summary execution. Whoever fired the weapon should be tried for 2nd degree murder, no less.

Chalk up another win for the terrorists, Blair, Bush and the neocons. They are all in the same box.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Whoever fired the weapon should be tried for 2nd degree murder, no less.


I completely agree.

Although, in a strange way I'm kind of happy to see the other side of the pond receive some criticism about this stuff.
post #45 of 56
An innocent bystander was murdered, execution-style. If this was done by British police, the officers would be publicly identified and face internal police disciplinary action, and manslaughter/murder charges in court. Whatever happened, the identities of these men would become public domain, because of the judicial process. However,the potential refusal of the UK authorities to identify the men who shot and killed Jean Charles de Menezes could point to the following possibility:

This is not an impossible scenario, especially considering the post 9-11 alignment of the Blair and Bush administrations in their unconditional support for hardline Israeli extremism, the popular branding of all followers of Mohammed as potential terrorists, and the cherry-picking nature of their alleged "war on terror".

This article was one of a series run in the British Sunday Express, a popular mainstream newspaper:

Quote:
MOSSAD ASSASSINS RETURN TO BRITAIN AFTER 17 YEARS' ABSENCE TO 'DISABLE' THREAT FROM ISLAMIC TERRORISTS
May 11, 2003
Sunday Express
Exclusive by Gordon Thomas, Tim Shipman and Yvonne Ridley

MOSSAD has sent four of its top assassins to Britain, provoking fears of a violent showdown on the streets with Islamic terrorists.

The kidon assassination squad has joined 15 handpicked katsas - Mossad's regular field agents - in the UK to "carry the war to our enemies", according to senior Israeli sources.

Their brief is to "disable" any of the "close to 50" British Muslims that the extremist Islamic group, Al-Muhajiroun, last week boasted were "primed and ready" to carry out suicide missions similar to the one in Tel Aviv carried out by a British passport holder.

An MI5 source said: "In Mossadspeak 'disable' means taking them out permanently. We know from past experience the kidon can make murder look like an accident. It is their speciality."

Two of the kidon sent to Britain are understood to be women trained in the art of the honeytrap.

Former Mossad chief Meir Amit said: "Sex is a woman's weapon.

Pillow talk is not a problem for her.

But it takes a special kind of courage to sleep with the enemy."

Rafi Eitan, a former director of operations, said: "We are like the official hangman or the doctor on death row who administers the lethal injection. We are simply fulfiling a sentence sanctioned by the prime minister of the day".

Since he has come to office Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, has "sanctioned" a number of assassinations of terrorists who could not be brought before Israeli courts.

The decision to send in Mossad came after urgent discussions between the two governments last weekend, which were described as "heated". One senior Israeli minister accused Britain of becoming a "haven for terrorists" during a hostile telephone conversation.

Later, Mossad's new chief, Meir Dagan, called Eliza Manningham-Buller, head of MI5, and told her that his men would co-operate closely with her agents.

The next day, katsas from Mossad headquarters in Brussels had flown into Heathrow, followed 24 hours later by the four-man kidon from Israel.

Supporting them are Mossad yahalomin, who are specialists at bugging phones and buildings.

Israel has made it clear that it fears Britain has become a haven for extremist preachers.
...
British intelligence officers are angry that Mossad's arrival in force in Britain for the first time since 1986 undermines their independence and casts serious doubts on their ability to deal with the enemy within. Their worst fear is that innocent civilians could get mixed up in an assassination attempt or a botched kidnapping.

But they also fear that the Mossad incursion into Britain is an attempt to embarrass the Labour Government, which has upset Mr Sharon through Tony Blair's stern advocacy of the Middle East peace road map.

A British intelligence source said: "The whole purpose would be to neutralise Britain and eliminate Blair from taking part in the talks on the grounds his country is harbouring terrorists.

"Sharon gets rid of UK interference and is able to shoehorn Mossad in to Britain again with the blessing of the Government." The Israeli embassy in London denied Mossad is on British soil and praised the role of the British intelligence services.

A spokeswoman said: "Britain has offered full cooperation in the investigation of the suicide bombings. We are very satisfied, we have full confidence in MI5 and MI6, we have very good relations."

The security situation will form a key part of talks this week between Foreign Secretary Jack Straw and his Israeli opposite number Silvan Shalom. These will be the first toplevel talks with Mossad on British soil since Margaret Thatcher ordered their operations to be shut down in 1986 after a "honeytrap" operation to kidnap Mordechai Vanunu, the whistleblower who revealed secrets about Israel's nuclear arsenal.

In Britain, the kidon are banned from using guns or explosives. But they are equipped with long and short-blade knives, and piano wire to strangle their victims.

Victor Ostrovsky, a former member of the assassination team, said:

"Strangulation if the target is to be killed at night. Sometimes an aerosol or a syringe in the jugular to deliver a fast-acting nerve agent that kills and leaves no trace."

In the past, Mossad has killed terrorists in Paris, Frankfurt and other European cities.

If the UK authorities refuse to identify the perps, then one has to wonder why.

Don't forget Mossad's Mission: "By deception thou shalt do war".
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
If he is believed to be an imminent danger to the passengers (carrying a bomb about to go off) as a passenger in the train I would expect them to do as they did. I am prepared to take part in the blame for the mistake that lead to the killing of an innocent man.

What a half-assed, ruthles, cold way of thinking. Seriously, I'm appalled.

It's okay to shoot a guy five times even after he has been neutralized because some plain-cloth dumb-ass police officers believe he has bombs to carry.

God damn. So much for me visiting London any time soon.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #47 of 56
I don´t think you get it. I urge you to read the last post on the first page.

Trained to look for suspicious behavior and to shoot to kill. On high alert and conducting surveillance against high risk targets. There is a good reason why a clear idea of threat had formed in their heads. And if they have a strong suspicion that anyone wants to murder me i don´t want them to second guess. In my book they did not do anything wrong (unless of course they killed him for other reasons). What IS wrong is the whole mentality that has occurred now in society and the new relation between state and individual. Read my last post on the first page. There is the clue to my understanding of the situation.

PS: Its funny that yesterday people were defending the police against any suspicion I had against them and now people are attacking me from the other side. It might be harsh to say but I really don´t have a problem with one murder more or less due to this war against terror we have going at the moment, Thats why I don´t see this as a special case. One murder here or there is, despite the human loss, NOTHING compared to long term consequences of this new world order. The incidence yesterday is merely a symptom of a larger problem and should not be taken as one ISOLATED situation with a victim and the officers as the bad guys,
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #48 of 56
Of course one murder is nothing, as long as you are not being murdered by those 'policemen'.

I'd like to know your opinion if (god forbid) someone from your family suffers the same fate all the while you don't really mind if civilians are killed by plain-cloth quasi-policemen looking like thugs on a hunt.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #49 of 56
Did you read my last post on the first page?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #50 of 56
The question that obviously arises is; Why didn't they intercept this guy before he reached the station?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronxite

"Freedom" however needs to take a on a different form in this day and age. There is the ideal situation and there is being realistic. Being realistic, some of our former freedoms will be taken away or more regulated. Example: Bag checks on NYC subways. In order to provide a somewhat safer environment, there will need to be changes.

No. No. No!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave." -- H. Mencken

Things like random bag checks on our subways is the totally wrong response to the terrorist thret. And the people who call for such infringements on our liberties do more long term harm to our country then the terrorist acts themselves.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
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post #52 of 56
Turns out the guy probably ran because he overstayed his visa, shot eight times to the head...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #53 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Res
No. No. No!

Things like random bag checks on our subways is the totally wrong response to the terrorist thret. And the people who call for such infringements on our liberties do more long term harm to our country then the terrorist acts themselves.

I don't disagree with you.

I just don't see what else there is to do at this point. Everyone would like to think people aren't crazy/sick enough to walk onto a train and blow themselves up along with the train but there are individuals out there that are willing to do that.

I really don't know how to prevent that or deal with that, and all of those who argue against increased preventive measures or security checks or anything else never provide a solution or deterrence and instead just complain about their liberties being taken away.

Well, my freedom and liberties are taken away when some jackass blows me up on my way to work on the NYC subway. Frankly, I'd rather give away my freedom of entering the subway without having a security check than my freedom to live.
post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronxite
I don't disagree with you.

I just don't see what else there is to do at this point. Everyone would like to think people aren't crazy/sick enough to walk onto a train and blow themselves up along with the train but there are individuals out there that are willing to do that.

I really don't know how to prevent that or deal with that, and all of those who argue against increased preventive measures or security checks or anything else never provide a solution or deterrence and instead just complain about their liberties being taken away.

Well, my freedom and liberties are taken away when some jackass blows me up on my way to work on the NYC subway. Frankly, I'd rather give away my freedom of entering the subway without having a security check than my freedom to live.


When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered. -- Dorothy Thompson.

The truth is that it is impossible to stop terrorism in a free society: we must make a choice between the cloying comfort of safety, or the inherent danger of freedom. I, for one, choose liberty.

And the sad is that things like random bag searches and the extra screening done in airports will not deter terrorists, they just infringe on our rights (and let the politicians say that they are doing some something so their constituents will keep them in office).

You say that those of us who wish to keep civil rights alive never come up with alternative solutions, but that is untrue. I, along with a great many others, have mentioned solutions that would actually deter terrorism far better than the methods currently implemented by the government, and do so without infringing on our civil rights. Here is an example:

Highjack Prevention 101
It has been proven with security tests that, no mater how well you try to screen the passengers and their belongings, terrorists will always be able to sneak weapons aboard a plane. So the surest way to to prevent a highjacking is not to wast time taking away knitting needles, swiss army knives and scissors from the passengers, but to actually arm each passenger and crew member with the equivalent of a lead pipe (you could make one of the arm rest detachable to be used as a weapon, or just put a club in the pouch on the back of each seat). If that was done any terrorists attempting to highjack an airplane would be quickly overwhelmed by the passengers. Add in Stronger cockpit doors and airport bomb sniffers and you have the airlines far safer then they are now, without infringing on our rights (or even adding screening time).

Things like the random bag searching of subway passengers will do nothing to hinder terrorists -- all it does is piss on the Forth Amendment and give fools a false sense of security. A terrorist could set off his bomb when the police ask to look into a his bag, killing everyone around him, or he could enter into the subway system from one of the thousands of gratings around the city. Of course, a terrorist could just set off a car bomb next to the sidewalk during rush hour -- it would kill more people than a subway attack. If you really want to prevent bombings, you don't instigate pointless random searches or security checks, you need to stop the terrorists before they make the bombs.

We need to keep tabs on everyone visiting our country, and infiltrate radical groups that encourage violence against us. That is where we should be spending our manpower and money, not on the unconstitutional harassment of our citizens.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
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post #55 of 56
I am against this law of "shoot to kill". This law said that it only applies for terrorism, but here it has applied to a simple brazilian guy.
They shot him 8 times : 7 in the head one in the shoulder.

The apologies of the Blairs will not ressurect him, and they said that they will not change their way to act.

Considering that Great Britain is a democratic countrie, this story is terrible.
post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally posted by Res
When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered. -- Dorothy Thompson.

The truth is that it is impossible to stop terrorism in a free society: we must make a choice between the cloying comfort of safety, or the inherent danger of freedom. I, for one, choose liberty.

perhaps is a "free society" is not the right society
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