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Lucifer

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 
I recently came across a hilarious site called Demonbuster which claims that the Paisley pattern as known from countless shawls, bedspreads and pyjamas is, in fact, demon possessed (as is anyone who can't stand the music on that site apparently). Fear not - this post isn't about that site but it got me thinking about Satan, Lucifer, His Infernal Majesty - call him what you will - and certain anomalies surrounding his nature. Some are real eye-openers.

If you ask any literalist Christian for their 'proof verse' on Mr D, they will invariably proffer the following from Isaiah 14:12:

Quote:
How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

This is from the original Hebrew btw where 'Son of the Morning' is used as a synonym for the name 'Lucifer'. Some later translations use 'Lucifer' interchangeably but this is a massive problem because Lucifer is a purely Latin word and Isaiah was written before the development of Latin - actually it is a smoking gun for Biblical tampering but that's not the main whammy.....

All Christians agree that Lucifer is the 'Morning Star'. But what then are we to make of this from Revelation 22:16:

Quote:
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.

So Jesus is the Morning Star???? As well as Lucifer, instead of, or are they both the same?

Again, Peter weighs in at 2 Peter 1:19:

Quote:
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

What's going on here and who cares? Well there's an important point - this is not bashing - it is that literalism cannot be true.

Those who insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible must accept that Jesus is Lucifer - something that cannot be true as it undermines the Bible itself - ergo: literalism is anti-Biblical and the Bible must be symbolic. Moreover - it proves that the symbols are used interchangeably and re-used in different contexts: ie it is not absolutist.

This kind of method can equally be applied to the Qur'an (I don't apply it here because a) it would play into the hands of the Islamophobes and b) very few people here are interested in the Qur'an anyway) and I would argue that it is a potential method of defeating extremism and religious literalism (aka fundamentalism) wherever they arise whether in Islam or Christianity, government or in popular movements.

We discussed this once before where Imams in Yemen challenged Jihadis to a religious debate with the winner accepting the other side's view - the Jihadis always lost (can't find the link) but, more importantly, they reformed! Yemen now has virtually solved their Jihadi problem.

We need something like this now - not just in terms of religion but right across the board: a rebirth of philosophical debate and the methods of critical thought.

Unfortunately to prepare the way for that foundation the literalists have to go.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 47
Let me side track this at once.

Paisley print? You know I have a shirt with Paisley prints all over it. In high school I wore it to my first exam and got the highest grade possible. It then became my "lucky shirt" and I wore it for every exam and when it had been worn out I kept it for good luck. I finished high school in the top 10 (as in among the ten persons with he highest total grade in Denmark that year).

I wonder if it was the work of the devil?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #3 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Let me side track this at once.

Paisley print? You know I have a shirt with Paisley prints all over it. In high school I wore it to my first exam and got the highest grade possible. It then became my "lucky shirt" and I wore it for every exam and when it had been worn out I kept it for good luck. I finished high school in the top 10 (as in among the ten persons with he highest total grade in Denmark that year).

I wonder if it was the work of the devil?

I think it very well might be.....do you have an aversion to the music on the site?

Apparently, according to the homepage:

Quote:
If you can hear the "Oh the Blood of Jesus" midi file, and it gets under your skin, don't turn your speakers off. The demons absolutely hate this song or any song that is about the Blood of Jesus. The more this bothers you, the more demon infested you are.....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 47
I read "stand", "music" and "site" I thought "okay yet antoher mid 90s MIDI hell" and turned down my computer before going to the site. Or was it me who did it?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #5 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I read "stand", "music" and "site" I thought "okay yet antoher mid 90s MIDI hell" and turned down my computer before going to the site. Or was it me who did it?

That definitely sounds like there might be something awry......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 47
Identifying Isaiah 14 as an entity of evil comes from the Scofield Study Bible - hardly dogmatic, but unfortunately blindly followed by many. Read the whole chapter and it's obvious this talks about a man.
post #7 of 47
I have to echo what JimDreamworx said, except I was unaware that the Scofield Bible is the culprit; but that isn't surprising.

I think Calvin sums it up: (from his Commentaries)
Quote:
12. How art thou fallen from heaven ! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which Ile had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; and that on account of his splendour and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance; for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.

Also, if you can put your hand on a set of Matthew Henry's commentaries, he covers the whole passage as well -- he covers it the same way Calvin does, as a decription of the King of the Babylonians.

Speaking of Babylonians, last night I did my best to sit all the way through the director's cut of Alexander. What was Stone smoking? Oh, wait, nevermind......

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #8 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I have to echo what JimDreamworx said, except I was unaware that the Scofield Bible is the culprit; but that isn't surprising.

I think Calvin sums it up: (from his Commentaries)


Also, if you can put your hand on a set of Matthew Henry's commentaries, he covers the whole passage as well.

Unfortunately it isn't as easy to dismiss out of hand as that - in fact, this could well be a classic example of the sort of area where critical thought (or, God help us, research) might benefit us all.

According to John J Robinson the mistake occurred in St Jerome's 4th century Vulgate version which was adopted uncritically by the compilers of the King James version and henceforth became the misnomer that is continually perpetuated to this day.

But you fail to address the point (imagine my shock ) - the thing is that either way Lucifer does not exist and never has done.

The name is a mistake on the part of Jerome who mistranslated the name of the morning star and conflated it with the Latin term lucem ferre - ie "bringer, or bearer, of light." - in reality, in the Hebrew original this term was used to describe the Babylonian king Helal, son of Shahar, which is translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn."

So Jerome made a mistake. KJV followed uncritically and no such figure as Lucifer exists in original scripture - hence the reason why Jesus could identify himself with the morning star with impunity.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #9 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Unfortunately it isn't as easy to dismiss out of hand as that - in fact, this could well be a classic example of the sort of area where critical thought (or, God help us, research) might benefit us all.

According to John J Robinson the mistake occurred in St Jerome's 4th century Vulgate version which was adopted uncritically by the compilers of the King James version and henceforth became the misnomer that is continually perpetuated to this day.

But you fail to address the point (imagine my shock ) - the thing is that either way Lucifer does not exist and never has done.

The name is a mistake on the part of Jerome who mistranslated the name of the morning star and conflated it with the Latin term lucem ferre - ie "bringer, or bearer, of light." - in reality, in the Hebrew original this term was used to describe the Babylonian king Helal, son of Shahar, which is translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn."

So Jerome made a mistake. KJV followed uncritically and no such figure as Lucifer exists in original scripture - hence the reason why Jesus could identify himself with the morning star with impunity.

You're losing me, here -- we both agree, LDS source or John Calvin, that any case the passage in question is not talking about "Lucifer", i.e. Satan, the devil, etc., at all.

I'm still waiting for my coffee to kick in though.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #10 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You're losing me, here -- we both agree, LDS source or John Calvin, that any case the passage in question is talking about "Lucifer", i.e. Satan, the devil, etc., at all.

I'm still waiting for my coffee to kick in though.

Oh. Well, how about that demon-possessed Paisley pattern then?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #11 of 47
Believe it or not, there are a LOT of Christians nowadays that do not believe in evil, hell, or any incarnation of the devil. Instead of evil existing, there is only a lack of good similar to cold being the lack of heat.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #12 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Believe it or not, there are a LOT of Christians nowadays that do not believe in evil, hell, or any incarnation of the devil. Instead of evil existing, there is only a lack of good similar to cold being the lack of heat.

Yes, a view which I would adhere to myself. Which is why (to return to the original purpose) those who hold such a view must speak up against the more simplistic notions that are the bane of contemporary life.

All this talk of 'evil' etc doesn't benefit anyone. It is also a convenient cover for abuses of all kinds - we all know Abu Ghraib and the atrocities there which would undoubtedly have been addressed differently were the victims not tagged as 'evil' (or were white/western), but I was reading today that hate crime in London has increased against Muslims 600% since the first London bombs.

And of course, not only is this minor news but nothing is being done relatively speaking when compared to the steps taken against the 'terror threat'.

Why is this?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #13 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
What's going on here and who cares? Well there's an important point - this is not bashing - it is that literalism cannot be true.

While I am not going to engage in the debate over this specific set of passages (because I have not yet had the time to study these and understand the discrepancies you claim to have discovered), I would like to point out that this issue of "literalism" is very often grossly mis-applied by people (maybe you too segovius, in this case).

Often people will ask something like "Do you interpret the Bible literally?" (often with tone that suggests derrision and amusement) But this is a bit a false question. It is a bit like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" A binary answer is expected where a more complex response is required.

The Bible has parts that (I believe) are intended to be read and understood literally. Typically that begins with the historical narrative parts. Parts that are describing (allegedly) some historical person and/or events. As literalism expands from there one must surely be careful. Some parts are also clearly intended to be interpreted in a different way...not literally...poetically...allegorically. Distinguishing that breakdown can sometimes be difficult. Further complicating things is that some things are written, perhaps even unknowingly by its author, as prophecy in a somewhat poetic form. See Psalm 22 as an example of this.

One example of this was when someone suggested that Bible says the earth is flat because of a phrase that says something like "the four corners of the earth". This would strike me (at least) as an obvious literary expression that would not be at all unlike someone like Peter Jennings on the evening news saying something like "and leaders from all corners of the globe are coming to the summit". I wouldn't assume that Mr. Jennings was saying anything about the shape of the earth (or its flatness)...but using a linguist/literary device to expression wide expansiveness.

The whole "literal interpretation" issues always comes up during the creation/evolution "discussions" (substitute rock-throwing, mudslinging, spitting match for "discussions"). As if someone must interpret the entire Bible, every passage as literally written and literally descriptive. I suspect some folks do. I also suspect it to be a much smaller number of people than most would guess.

The bottom line of all this is that the "literal interpretation of the Bible" is a more complex topic than our simplistic, sound-bite culture today seems willing to acknowledge and accept.
post #14 of 47
Back in my wilder days when I would take LSD I would see those patterns in anything I looked at.

My arm, the floor, etc.

So the devil DOES = LSD!!11

Those guys was right!
Into the at, for.
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Into the at, for.
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post #15 of 47
On the far more important question of whether paisley patterns are the product of or representative of the devil...well I think that is rather obvious.
post #16 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
On the far more important question of whether paisley patterns are the product of or representative of the devil...well I think that is rather obvious.

They are Persian.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #17 of 47
Welcome back segovius.

And yes, Jesus is the devil.
post #18 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I would like to point out that this issue of "literalism" is very often grossly mis-applied by people...

SNIP

The bottom line of all this is that the "literal interpretation of the Bible" is a more complex topic than our simplistic, sound-bite culture today seems willing to acknowledge and accept.

Great post, Chris, thanks!
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #19 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
While I am not going to engage in the debate over this specific set of passages (because I have not yet had the time to study these and understand the discrepancies you claim to have discovered), I would like to point out that this issue of "literalism" is very often grossly mis-applied by people (maybe you too segovius, in this case).

Often people will ask something like "Do you interpret the Bible literally?" (often with tone that suggests derrision and amusement) But this is a bit a false question. It is a bit like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" A binary answer is expected where a more complex response is required.

The Bible has parts that (I believe) are intended to be read and understood literally. Typically that begins with the historical narrative parts. Parts that are describing (allegedly) some historical person and/or events. As literalism expands from there one must surely be careful. Some parts are also clearly intended to be interpreted in a different way...not literally...poetically...allegorically. Distinguishing that breakdown can sometimes be difficult. Further complicating things is that some things are written, perhaps even unknowingly by its author, as prophecy in a somewhat poetic form. See Psalm 22 as an example of this.

One example of this was when someone suggested that Bible says the earth is flat because of a phrase that says something like "the four corners of the earth". This would strike me (at least) as an obvious literary expression that would not be at all unlike someone like Peter Jennings on the evening news saying something like "and leaders from all corners of the globe are coming to the summit". I wouldn't assume that Mr. Jennings was saying anything about the shape of the earth (or its flatness)...but using a linguist/literary device to expression wide expansiveness.

The whole "literal interpretation" issues always comes up during the creation/evolution "discussions" (substitute rock-throwing, mudslinging, spitting match for "discussions"). As if someone must interpret the entire Bible, every passage as literally written and literally descriptive. I suspect some folks do. I also suspect it to be a much smaller number of people than most would guess.

The bottom line of all this is that the "literal interpretation of the Bible" is a more complex topic than our simplistic, sound-bite culture today seems willing to acknowledge and accept.

Actually I agree with you, you make some good points - some parts are meant to be literal and some are clearly metaphoric.

All I know is that some people take it literally just as some take the Qur'an literally, equally erroneously, and it is these people who I'm addressing. It is no way a criticism of Christianity as a whole and doesn't need defending any more than Islam does if someone says the Wahabis are fascists (I don't like the Wahabis - did I ever mention that?) - it has no bearing on the people who follow the religion who are 'allright'.

I also agree with your analysis of creationist debates (please God don't let us go there) - I am a non-literalist creationist myself - in many ways it is just ammo to win a cheap point. But let's move swiftly on....

My point is that this thing called the truth (aka facts) should be paramount and supplant any belief.

If one believes in a religious teaching then it must be susceptible to academic analysis and it must change also in light of discoveries of new facts. That's a problem Islam faces now actually - belief took precedence over facts a few hundred years ago so we have a belief system that is more suited to a few hundred years ago...but I digress.

Oh, and hi BRussell
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #20 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Oh. Well, how about that demon-possessed Paisley pattern then?

I'm not actually licensed to wear Paislies.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
My point is that this thing called the truth (aka facts) should be paramount and supplant any belief.

Agreed...though, of course, facts are often incomplete and sometimes unverified ir unverifiable. Those issues aside, I think a simple way of putting all of this is that everyone has beliefs (we ALL have them). Some beliefs are more supportable (NOTE: Not necessarily proven) than others.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
If one believes in a religious teaching then it must be susceptible to academic analysis and it must change also in light of discoveries of new facts.

I agree except to say that a) it is any teaching or belief or opinion., and b) often times two people can look at the very same set of facts and reach different conclusions. Both conclusions can be possible, but there isn't any fact (at the moment) to tip the balance one way or another. So we have to live with the condition (hopefully respectfully) that there are two (or possibly more) possible conclusions that are potentially valid absent further facts.

Much of this also has to do with the presuppositions that we all bring to the table to begin with.
post #22 of 47
Don't forget, guys truth isn't a concept, truth is a person -- the person of Jesus Christ.

(someone just started a thruth v fact thread in the main AO forum)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #23 of 47
Yes Chris does make good points about literalism. I'd go a bit further and say that even if you wanted to take everything literally, you simply cannot. It's just the nature of human writing, and perhaps human thought, that it's subject to interpretation. You're going to end up falling into traps if you really think you can take a text completely literally.
post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Don't forget, guys truth isn't a concept, truth is a person -- the person of Jesus Christ.

Good point. But now you've started something.
post #25 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Good point.

Or rather good illustration perhaps.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Unfortunately it isn't as easy to dismiss out of hand as that - in fact, this could well be a classic example of the sort of area where critical thought (or, God help us, research) might benefit us all.

According to John J Robinson the mistake occurred in St Jerome's 4th century Vulgate version which was adopted uncritically by the compilers of the King James version and henceforth became the misnomer that is continually perpetuated to this day.

But you fail to address the point (imagine my shock ) - the thing is that either way Lucifer does not exist and never has done.

The name is a mistake on the part of Jerome who mistranslated the name of the morning star and conflated it with the Latin term lucem ferre - ie "bringer, or bearer, of light." - in reality, in the Hebrew original this term was used to describe the Babylonian king Helal, son of Shahar, which is translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn."

So Jerome made a mistake. KJV followed uncritically and no such figure as Lucifer exists in original scripture - hence the reason why Jesus could identify himself with the morning star with impunity.

I was under the impression that Origen identified the serpent in the G of E as Satan/Lucifer. Am I wrong here?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #27 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I was under the impression that Origen identified the serpent in the G of E as Satan/Lucifer. Am I wrong here?

Yes, apparently the name was in use in Origen's time but the misinterpretation of Jerome still stands - as does the argument that the original Hebrew could not have mentioned the Latinized name. It is moot whether the coining arrived from Jerome's mistake or Jerome's mistake was based on a prior knowledge of the name which predisposed him to make his error.

In any event, Origen was extrapolating - nowhere in Genesis is the serpent claimed to be Satan. A belief in this cannot even approach literalism because the beliefs deriving from the Genesis myth are largely later (Christian) accretions.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It is moot whether the coining arrived from Jerome's mistake or Jerome's mistake was based on a prior knowledge of the name which predisposed him to make his error.

In any event, Origen was extrapolating - nowhere in Genesis is the serpent claimed to be Satan. A belief in this cannot even approach literalism because the beliefs deriving from the Genesis myth are largely later (Christian) accretions.

I'm just suggesting that the idea is there as early as Origen, and so that puts a kink in idea that this is a problem stemming from the 4th century.

It's an interesting problem, though. I don't know enough about Hebrew literature to know whether the idea of a "morning star" or "star of the morning" was a literary trope, which is the easiest answer to your question, isn't it?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #29 of 47
One word "Venus"

To make a contented slave, it is necessary to make a thoughtless one. It is necessary to darken his moral and mental vision, and, as far as possible, to annihilate the power of reason.

This place is my Egypt.

http://www.usbible.com/Astrology/garden_tour.htm
post #30 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I'm just suggesting that the idea is there as early as Origen, and so that puts a kink in idea that this is a problem stemming from the 4th century.

It's an interesting problem, though. I don't know enough about Hebrew literature to know whether the idea of a "morning star" or "star of the morning" was a literary trope, which is the easiest answer to your question, isn't it?

Yes, it would.

But we do know quite a bit even from NT sources - there seems very little doubt that we are speaking here of a conflation of Jesus with the morning star. And of course his birth was heralded by a star - and it was the Magi astronomers (ie Zoroastrians - the Jesus/Zoroaster links are also fascinating) that figured largely in the mythos.

It would not be beyond possibility that the original Christological teaching was astrologically influenced and that the later Church redactors neutralised this aspect by conflating it with Satanic overtones - hence the confusion.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #31 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by powermacG6
This place is my Egypt.

Where also Jesus was crucified......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #32 of 47
Must pop in to hardily recommend Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan.

She tracks the rise of the notion of Satan as a powerful and unique entity "at war" with God, rather a new thing in its stark binary-ness.

Most interesting to me is her discussion of how that all-or-nothing, good/evil split introduced into the world a new kind of characterization of "the enemy"-- people who were "of Satan" and therefore to be opposed with an all consuming fervor, by "God's armies".
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Where also Jesus was crucified......

I might take that comment as your threat to me to rip apart everything i believe in...in which case i challenge you to do that with open arms
post #34 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Must pop in to hardily recommend Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan.

She tracks the rise of the notion of Satan as a powerful and unique entity "at war" with God, rather a new thing in its stark binary-ness.

Most interesting to me is her discussion of how that all-or-nothing, good/evil split introduced into the world a new kind of characterization of "the enemy"-- people who were "of Satan" and therefore to be opposed with an all consuming fervor, by "God's armies".

A classic text and a must-read.

Most important is her documenting that Satan was never seen as an opponent of God in the Hebrew view (and still isn't) but rather was described as 'God's faithful servant'.

The transformation into the 'evil one' came in the first 100 years after Christ's death where the Christian faction that was later to consolidate power as the only orthodoxy invented the concept as a means of subjugating all rival views (ie demonizing them as 'evil') in order to gain that power.

That's all there is. They invented the idea of Satan as we know it. It was never part of Old Testament or Christological theology.

Quote:
Originally posted by powermacG6
I might take that comment as your threat to me to rip apart everything i believe in...in which case i challenge you to do that with open arms

Far from it - I am in retirement

It was just to keep any prowling literalists on their toes (not that there would be any round here of course....)
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #35 of 47
Remove the 'fear' element, and what is left?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #36 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes, apparently the name was in use in Origen's time but the misinterpretation of Jerome still stands -

...wait a minute, how can this 'still stand' when the mainstream commentaries say exactly the opposite?

You did read the quote from Calvin: "these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables." ....yes?

???

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #37 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
...wait a minute, how can this 'still stand' when the mainstream commentaries say exactly the opposite?

You did read the quote from Calvin: "these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables." ....yes?

???

Because the erroneous conflation of Lucifer with the Morning Star in Isaiah occurs in Jerome's translation regardless of whether the name Lucifer was known before and it was Jerome's Vulgate that was drawn upon by the KJV not Origen.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Because the erroneous conflation of Lucifer with the Morning Star in Isaiah occurs in Jerome's translation regardless of whether the name Lucifer was known before and it was Jerome's Vulgate that was drawn upon by the KJV not Origen.

Yes, but Calvin predates the KJV; he doesn't seem confused about this at all.

???

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

Far from it - I am in retirement

damn it, cant i tempt you?

I'd love to see you rip through astrotheology and point out everywhere I got it wrong.

Pretty please?
post #40 of 47
A third on Pagels, although Beyond Belief is a real trip, too. I've read them all.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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