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Truth v. Fact - Page 5

post #161 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Well we do....it was less than 4000 years ago remember?


No, you really don't -- plate shift, even small changes in the atmosphere, could have made things quite different.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #162 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
No, you really don't -- plate shift, even small changes in the atmosphere, could have made things quite different.

Uhh...ok......yes, I see exactly what you mean..........(backs away slowly......)
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #163 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Uhh...ok......yes, I see exactly what you mean..........(backs away slowly......)

you forgot the emoticon

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #164 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Uhh...ok......yes, I see exactly what you mean..........(backs away slowly......)

Oh...dmz...that is segovius' clever way of saying that you are a "nut job loonie"...because trying to actually prove that it wasn't as you say is too difficult.

P.S. If i wasn't already too old and, well, if I had shred of musical talent, I think I would start a rock band called the "Nut Job Loonies"...just for fun.
post #165 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Oh...dmz...that is segovius' clever way of saying that you are a "nut job loonie"...because trying to actually prove that it wasn't as you say is too difficult.

Well, it is too difficult - nothing could prove it to him, he;s too far gone.

Besides, I know nothing of science so in a way you're right. I prefer theology - speaking of which, could you please explain the following Genesis contradictions to me and how they can possibly be indicative of a literal Biblical truth:

Genesis 8:4 states the following: "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."

But this is contradicted by the very next verse, Genesis 8:5 which says: "And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth [month], on the first [day] of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen."

So how could the Ark rest on the mountaintops on the seventh month when the mountaintops were not visible until the tenth month?

Likewise Genesis 8:13 has it that: "And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry."

Ie, that the ground was dry on the first day of the first month. But again, the very next verse blatantly contradicts this - Genesis 8:14 says "And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried".

So which is it? How is it possible to maintain a belief in the literal nature of Scripture when these blatant contradictions point to the fact that it is not and cannot be a document intended to be taken in a literal sense.

To refuse to acknowledge this AND to twist facts from science that we know are non-contradictory is a form of intellectual dishonesty imo.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #166 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Well, it is too difficult - nothing could prove it to him, he;s too far gone.

Besides, I know nothing of science so in a way you're right. I prefer theology - speaking of which, could you please explain the following Genesis contradictions to me and how they can possibly be indicative of a literal Biblical truth:

Genesis 8:4 states the following: "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."

But this is contradicted by the very next verse, Genesis 8:5 which says: "And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth [month], on the first [day] of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen."

So how could the Ark rest on the mountaintops on the seventh month when the mountaintops were not visible until the tenth month?

Likewise Genesis 8:13 has it that: "And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry."

Ie, that the ground was dry on the first day of the first month. But again, the very next verse blatantly contradicts this - Genesis 8:14 says "And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried".

So which is it? How is it possible to maintain a belief in the literal nature of Scripture when these blatant contradictions point to the fact that it is not and cannot be a document intended to be taken in a literal sense.

To refuse to acknowledge this AND to twist facts from science that we know are non-contradictory is a form of intellectual dishonesty imo.

This may help -- you may consider investing in a set of Calvin's Commentaries.

Quote:
3. And after the end of the hundred and fifty days. Some think that the whole time, from the beginning of the deluge to the abatement of the waters, is bere noted ; and thus they include the forty days in which Moses relates that there was continued rain. But I make this distinction, that until the fortieth day, the waters rose gradually by fresh additions; then that they remained nearly in the same state for one hundred and fifty days; for both computations make the period a little more than six months and a half. And Moses says, that about the end of the seventh month, the diminution of the waters appeared to be such that the ark settled upon the highest summit of a mountain, or touched some ground. And by this lengthened space of time, the Lord would show the more plainly, that the dreadful desolation of the world had not fallen upon it accidentally, but was a remarkable proof of his judgment; while the deliverance of Noah was a magnificent work of his grace, and worthy of everlasting remembrance. If, however, we number the seventh month from the beginning of the year, (as some do,) and not from the time that Noah entered the ark, the subsidence of which Moses speaks, took place earlier, namely, as soon as the ark had floated five months. If this second opinion is received, there will be the same reckoning of ten months ; for the sense will be, that in the eighth month after the commencement of the deluge, the tops of the mountains appeared. Concerning the name Ararat, I follow the opinion most received. And I do not see why some should deny it to be Armenia, the mountains of which are declared, by ancient authors, almost with one consent, to be the highest.1 The Chaldean paraphrast also points out the particular part, which he calls mountains of Cardu,2 which others call Cardueni. But whether that be true, which Josephus has handed down respecting the fragments of the ark found there in his time; remnants of which, Jerome says, remained to his own age, I leave undecided.

One more point, and then I need to let it go until later today -- this Karen Armstrong who was quoted earlier... how it is possible that she could make the airhead statement....

"belief that it is literally true in every detail is a recent innovation, formulated for the first time in the late 19th century. "

....when I am sitting here a reading a mid-16th Century commentary that is anything but an allegorical joy ride?

more later.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #167 of 211
dmz,

please direct me to a single feasibility study that shows how the ark could have happened.

The ones Chris pointed out distorted facts when needed, and ignored others that made it inconvenient.

Fact postulated by Chris: all religeons have a global flood somewhere in their history.
Actual fact: no, some do, and those that do tend to talk of localised floods.

And you want us to accept whales and dolphins, horses and zebras mating to create the diversified animal landscape we see to day to help get your numbers down!

You start from the point that God is omnipotent so all the impossibilities in the story are explained by His powers. Fine. God arranged it. he also allowed man to remember the flood, by getting it written in the Bible.

But the God also arranged it so that there is NO physical evidence of such a flood.

Why?

David

PS I note that both you and Chris still won't answer my question as to WHY you belive this story to be true. Would I be right is saying over 95% of mainstream Christians don't believe this to be a true story?
post #168 of 211
Chris,

about plate shifts.

I suppose God could have moved tectonic plates around the world at a rate of knots, and not at the current rate of centimertres per decade, without leaving any evidence of that.

But that isn't a good enough answer for you.

David
post #169 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
Fact postulated by Chris: all religeons have a global flood somewhere in their history.

Actually I don't think I ever offered that. Maybe someone else did.

Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
Would I be right is saying over 95% of mainstream Christians don't believe this to be a true story?

I have no idea. I'd guess no. But just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true either so not even sure what point you'd be trying to make.
post #170 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
WHY you belive this story to be true.

Oh, sorry. Well, because it has the form and structure of historical narrative. So I begin with a presumption that it was intended as a historical story. From there, the questions of reasonableness to believe support it. I don't start from the presumption that it must be a lie and it must prove itself. In other words I allow benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
post #171 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
Would I be right is saying over 95% of mainstream Christians don't believe this to be a true story?

No you would be wrong. Chris and dmz are fairly typical American Christians. link

Quote:
An ABC News poll released Sunday found that 61 percent of Americans believe the account of creation in the Bible's book of Genesis is "literally true" rather than a story meant as a "lesson."
Sixty percent believe in the story of Noah's ark and a global flood, while 64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors.

Quote:
The poll found that 75 percent of Protestants believed in the story of creation, 79 percent in the Red Sea account and 73 percent in Noah and the ark.
Among evangelical Protestants, those figures were 87 percent, 91 percent and 87 percent, respectively. Among Catholics, they were 51 percent, 50 percent and 44 percent.
post #172 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
dmz,

please direct me to a single feasibility study that shows how the ark could have happened.

The ones Chris pointed out distorted facts when needed, and ignored others that made it inconvenient.

Fact postulated by Chris: all religeons have a global flood somewhere in their history.
Actual fact: no, some do, and those that do tend to talk of localised floods.

And you want us to accept whales and dolphins, horses and zebras mating to create the diversified animal landscape we see to day to help get your numbers down!

You start from the point that God is omnipotent so all the impossibilities in the story are explained by His powers. Fine. God arranged it. he also allowed man to remember the flood, by getting it written in the Bible.

But the God also arranged it so that there is NO physical evidence of such a flood.

Why?

David

PS I note that both you and Chris still won't answer my question as to WHY you belive this story to be true. Would I be right is saying over 95% of mainstream Christians don't believe this to be a true story?

You're starting to go in circles here. You live in terms of an argument from ignorance but 'want evidence'?

You need to be consistent in what you're asking.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #173 of 211
Quote:
64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors

See, just because a large % of people believe something doesn't mean that they are right. God (not Moses) is generally credited with the parting of the Red Sea.

post #174 of 211
Chris,

you wrote:

Quote:
Well, because it has the form and structure of historical narrative. So I begin with a presumption that it was intended as a historical story. From there, the questions of reasonableness to believe support it.

And there we part. is the story reasonable? Nope. Not by a long way.

dmz

you wrote:

Quote:
You're starting to go in circles here. You live in terms of an argument from ignorance but 'want evidence'?

You need to be consistent in what you're asking.

Don't understand - an argument from ignorance? What's that? What's wrong with suggesting that if there was a global flood a few thousand years ago we'd see some evidence of it. And there is nada.

At least Chris answered my specific question as to WHY you believe it to be true.

David
post #175 of 211
Those percentages are for Americans.

In europe, Australasia and S America I'd be amazed if the numbers exceed 5% for literal truth.

Interesting - I wonder why?

David
post #176 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
is the story reasonable? Nope. Not by a long way.

And we circle around...in your belief. So we end where we began.
post #177 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
Interesting - I wonder why?

It might be interesting to know why. But it is also important to realize that belief does not begat truth.
post #178 of 211
Chris,

as you say, back to where we started. You believe, despite zero evidence to support your belief. I don't, with plenty of evidence to support my belief.

Still, to each their own.

Just as well in most cases it's harmless.

David

PS glad to see in your final post that you acknowledge that you may not be correct in your belief (correct in the sense of the truth of the event)
post #179 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
You believe, despite zero evidence to support your belief.

On this you are wrong. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
glad to see in your final post that you acknowledge that you may not be correct in your belief (correct in the sense of the truth of the event)

I never claimed any differently.

I could be wrong.

Conversely, I don't think I have seen anyone (yourself included) that believes the Noah story is NOT true, admit that they could be wrong. You may have said so, I just don't have the energy or time to go back through the thread. If you have, I apologize. But you'd be one of the few.
post #180 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
dmz

you wrote:



Don't understand - an argument from ignorance? What's that? What's wrong with suggesting that if there was a global flood a few thousand years ago we'd see some evidence of it. And there is nada.

Sorry, for the delay, I had a small 'OH MY GOD!!' project get away from me.

Anyway, I have trouble with people who whisk away forests of DNA pathways with a "oh it just adapted" attitude and then quibble over percentages when it comes to something like Noah. The various feasibility studies are as debatable as any other piece of research; but like I said, this isn't the issue at all. What's at issue is the mindset that starts by ruling out God's revelatory nature, first, and then breaks out the white gloves and feeler gauges to 'measure the evidence' -- which is only a convoluted path to a 'if ain't legit, you must acquit' judgment. And same goes with the 'no evidence' mantra about the deluge.

'Oh no, Noah only had 24.6% of available floor space clear, and we all know that he needed 31.2% of space..........'

....the whole approach is complete nonsense.

The clincher here is that you are asking me to apply a criterion to my Faith that you do not, and cannot, apply to your own; and that it's being done either out of extreme idealism, or some not-so-nice subtlety. Materialists, live with effectively 100% of their knowledge of origins, completely unknowable and untestable -- and I'm supposed to take it in the shorts over some percentages? "oh the longest wooden boat could only be 377 feet long, not 450 feet."

Right, get me a working genetic blueprint for the bacterial flagellum and we'll talk about the impracticalities of Noah's Ark.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #181 of 211
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #182 of 211
--a little big for an emoticon, don't you think?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #183 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
--a little big for an emoticon, don't you think?

Well, it's an emotive issue - I've got some more, do you want to see them?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #184 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Well, it's an emotive issue - I've got some more, do you want to see them?

Maybe -- are they funny? Although, addressing the quibbling over percentages point wouldn't be all bad either.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #185 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Maybe -- are they funny?

I think so:

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #186 of 211
....hmmmm -- It didn't move me, maybe it if had some elements of truth it would be funny?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #187 of 211
I guess if that is how segovius (and probably others here) really view Christians and those that believe in creation, the Bible, God, etc., there isn't much point in having these discussions.

Kinda sad really.
post #188 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I guess if that is how segovius (and probably others here) really view Christians and those that believe in creation, the Bible, God, etc., there isn't much point in having these discussions.

Kinda sad really.

You know Chris, I just can't for the life of me understand how it is that when someone criticizes one extreme group within Christianity that it is Christians themselves - like you and DMZ - that try to say it represents all of the religion.

No-one else is saying it is all Christians - I never have and no-one here has to my knowledge. Is it some defense mechanism to counter any criticism of one extreme group?

i just don't get it.

If someone says to me - as they often do - all Muslims are extremists - then I point out that this is not the case. If someone says all Christians are like the ones ion the cartoons I posted I will similarly point out this is not the case - as I have often done here as you well know.

If, oth, someone says some Muslims are extremists and are lunatics then I will agree. WHy not - what's the problem? There are loons everywhere.

The only reason I can see that you won't stand up and say that these literalist Christians are loons is because you are a literalist. That's fair enough and I respect your choice but don't try to say that you represent all of Christianity because you don't. Many Christians would find the cartoons amusing and agree with the spirit behind them.

There are other versions of Christianity than the ones portrayed above, sane, rational and reasonable ones. Maybe we need to start discussing and promoting them, perhaps that has been where it's all gone wrong.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #189 of 211
No chance of addressing my point above -- the 'oh the ark couldn't have been built because it's 11.3% too long' thing?

(If you did, this would almost start to resemble a dialogue.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #190 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I guess if that is how segovius (and probably others here) really view Christians and those that believe in creation, the Bible, God, etc., there isn't much point in having these discussions.

Kinda sad really.

Oh and one more thing.....I happen to believe in creationism but not in a literalist sense. Ie I believe that God is the directing force behind evolution (although I do take issue with some of evolutionary theory as currently taught).

I also believe in Noah as a Prophet and even that he constructed a ship of sorts, I'm even willing to believe it's remains exist on Mount Judi and must say there is a certain amount of evidence that this is so.

What I cannot believe though is that the Bible has survived 'un-enhanced', that it is literal even though it is contradictory and that a global flood occurred which there is no scientific evidence for and which involved cramming all existent creatures into a boat the size of which was not large enough to house them.

We just cannot sacrifice reason - for anything. not even 'God'.

So maybe there is a point to these discussions.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #191 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
No chance of addressing my point above -- the 'oh the ark couldn't have been built because it's 11.3% too long' thing?

(If you did, this would almost start to resemble a dialogue.)

Uhh...could you run it by me again? Not sure I grasp the logic.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #192 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Uhh...could you run it by me again? Not sure I grasp the logic.....

Oh, PPUULEASE

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #193 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Oh, PPUULEASE

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #194 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You know Chris, I just can't for the life of me understand how it is that when someone criticizes one extreme group within Christianity that it is Christians themselves - like you and DMZ - that try to say it represents all of the religion.

No-one else is saying it is all Christians

Fair enough. My mistake. I apologize.

Easy mistake to make though, because I (personally) have never encountered any Christians that look like that, so when I see stuff like that, it looks a lot like this must be how some folks view any/all Christians. And, well, when you bring it up in the context of this debate...with me and dmz...well...it is also an easy mistake to make that you, perhaps, might be aiming at either/both of us (wink wink nudge nudge).

Please forgive my erroneous conclusion (about your view).
post #195 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Fair enough. My mistake. I apologize.

Easy mistake to make though, because I (personally) have never encountered any Christians that look like that, so when I see stuff like that, it looks a lot like this must be how some folks view any/all Christians. And, well, when you bring it up in the context of this debate...with me and dmz...well...it is also an easy mistake to make that you, perhaps, might be aiming at either/both of us (wink wink nudge nudge).

Please forgive my erroneous conclusion (about your view).

No problems. I apologise too if I have been less than polite.

Perhaps part of the problem is that I grew up surrounded by Christians exactly like that. I was well into my twenties before I realised there was any other type. I know MarcUK had a similar experience.

We're all conditioned in one way or another I guess.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #196 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No problems. I apologise too if I have been less than polite.

Perhaps part of the problem is that I grew up surrounded by Christians exactly like that. I was well into my twenties before I realised there was any other type. I know MarcUK had a similar experience.

We're all conditioned in one way or another I guess.

You had Christian's barging in on your Chemistry Lab!?

Did they make you do 'experiments'?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #197 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You had Christian's barging in on your Chemistry Lab!?

Did they make you do 'experiments'?

No, mine must have been from a different department.

These ones used to break into my bedroom and steal my books and long-playing records in order to confine them to the flames in a makeshift bonfire which they would dance around while shouting 'come Jesus come'.

It was around then that I started seriously studying Freud......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #198 of 211
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No, mine must have been from a different department.

These ones used to break into my bedroom and steal my books and long-playing records in order to confine them to the flames in a makeshift bonfire which they would dance around while shouting 'come Jesus come'.

It was around then that I started seriously studying Freud......

That's alright -- you shouldn't have been listening to all that Wang Chung & Corey Hart anyway.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #199 of 211
Sorry dmz,

I had kind of given up on this.

You're right - I'll respond to the 23.4% type question.

It is not a relevant argument, in my book. The amount of theorising that goes into deciding how much space an undeterminable number of aninmals require in a ship of indeterminate dimensions and build design results in a pointless calculation.

The bottom line in this 'debate' is either you believe that God caused 10s of 1000s of animals to congregate somewhere in the Middle East where a 600 year old man was putting the finishing touches to an Ark, followed by God slaughtering the entire Human race (bar said old man and family) and the rest of the animal kingdom, followed by said Ark floating around for a year or so until the waters subsided, or you don't.

If you do believe it, you have to explain the complete lack of physical evidence that it happened. CHris mentioned that there is evidence, but didn't lead me to any resources to verify that claim. And yes, the explanantion could be that God didn't want to leave any evidence, though was happy for human memory to record the event.

I don't believe this story. The majority of Christians worldwide also don't believe it to be true (why America appears to be the exception I do not know).

Regards,

David

PS I suspect that it was creationists that came up with these percentages in the first place. Non-believers were happy to leave it at that, until Woodruffe (spelling, and apologies if he wasn't the first) came along, decided on 16,000 animals as the requirement for full re-population, decided on average size and so on and so forth.
post #200 of 211
I'd like to ask DMZ and Chris if they are interested in any of the 'real-world' investigations into the Ark such as Noah's Ark Search or whether their belief remains confined to the imaginal realm.

Personally - although I hope I've been clear in my disdain for the lunacy of Scriptural literacy - I am fairly convinced that there is evidence of some such anomalous relic in the Ararat range - whether in Mt Judi or Mt Ararat.

Traditionally there have been several monasteries in this region which in the past housed 'Ark relics' - not that this means much, and there are numerous eye-witness accounts of anomalous wooden artefacts on the mountain (which is treeless).
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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