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Iran thumbs it's nose at International Community... Again - Page 2

post #41 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
[B]More great news today.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Descripti...&Cat=2&Num=004

Not anymore, if even they ever effectively were.
Basically "Your silly sanctions have no effect on us"
Sounds like a threat to me.

If you really think Iran is the great hyped booga booga, the you have swallowed the dope. Iran is up to its neck with inspectors and the only way they are going to get weapons grade material in the foreseeable future without the international community's knowledge is via the black market. The Bush administration is trying desperately to manufacture a crisis, in order to justify military action, (probably elected airstrikes from the newly constructed bases in Iraq, or by proxy, from Israel. The "war on terror" backfired, as was predicted by the anti-war community as far back as just after 9-11, (months before the Iraq war started), and they desperately need something to to re-frame the whole program, as soon as possible, in a high visibiity fashion before the whole thing runs out of control and melts down. A far greater nuclear concern is Pakistan under the (criminal) regime of dictator Pervez Musharraf.

.......

If you really think that Iran is a good example of how to misbehave as regards the international community, then try Israel's universal "thumbing its nose" at the international community for some 50 years, and the United States' universally consistent record of supporting such misbehavior:

http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org...esolutions.htm

Incidentally, in the (weird) relationship between the US and Israel, who is the master, and who is the sub?
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post #42 of 267
Watching you all argue is really quite entertaining seeing as though both sides of the argument aren't being all that effectively supported.

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post #43 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Like that is anything new:


Good post, New.

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post #44 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So, Naples, as you begin to agitate for another war of "preemptive" aggression, based on intelligence that may or may not be accurate (but how could any of our intelligence be wrong? We must take it at face value), I'm sure there is one question paramount in the minds of all of us here at Political Outsider:

I'm not pushing for anything. I am simply reporting what I hear and injecting my opinion. I am choosing to beleive because of the overabundance od reports. We have seen over dacades the outward show of aggression toward the US by Iran.

Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
When are you going to enlist? Because we all know there is just no way in hell a tough talking, take no prisoners, red meat defender of American values is going to let another war that he endlessly champions be fought by other people.

No sir, there is no doubt in my mind that you simply couldn't live with the stain of craven, gutless hypocrisy that is the distinguishing feature of the chicken-hawk, who is ever ready to put somebody else's life on the line for his principles.

I am more than willing to contribute to doing what's right. But I am sure that you know that there is more involved in this whole thing than simply enlisting to go fight.

Nice rhetoric, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
God knows they could use you. The glorious appointment with destiny in Iraq has kinda taken a toll on recruitment and the endless extensions of reserve tours of duty are really taking a toll on the kids who were patriotic enough to sign up to serve there country (I know you meant to, must have had "other priorities"), like this guy.

Two weeks shy of finishing his National Guard duty when he gets the involuntary re-up notice, gets shipped off to Iraq, and killed. And he thought the war was stupid and wrong.

Doesn't it tear at your conscience to know it could have, should have been you?

And if we go after Iran, we sure as shit are going to need a lot more of America's brave, can't shut them up chicken-hawks to put their asses on the line, which seems only right and proper, don't you think? And hey, the military is softening the requirements, upping the age limit and all, so if you thought you didn't qualify, you better check again!

Or is it just a whole hell of a lot more comfortable to play at being the mad little general on the internet, where bellicose speeches about what must be done never gets any blood or brains on your shirt?

I think you've just proven you've got a masters in belicose.
post #45 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
NaplesX, since your such a specialist on Iranian politics, could you comment on this qoute then: "In a statement read late Tuesday at the IAEA meeting, Iran's leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, issued a fatwa, or religious legal ruling, saying "production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons."

I think that someone's not being totally upfront. I guess it boils down to what you are willing to beleive. I think we see how hard a sale you are.
post #46 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I think that someone's not being totally upfront. I guess it boils down to what you are willing to beleive. I think we see how hard a sale you are.

All I see is you picking and chosing quotes to fit your already established agenda. Hey, let's dig up this quote by an iranian student news agency but ignore this fatwa just issued by Irans highest religious leader. So do you think is he lying, or being kept in the dark?

Personally I think this is a matter of fighting a war of wills against the US. I think it's an important cause internally in Iran, and the mid-east, a show of strength and defiance. As well as a bargaining exercise, to see how hard they can squeeze the west. It has nothing to do with "blowing up israel".

Anyway, how is that list on iranian terrorism going?
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post #47 of 267
Eh, we shouldn't be too sanguine about this. Remember, they hid their nuke facilities from the IAEA before. I find it hard to believe they weren't trying to develop weapons. Why were they hiding it if what they were doing was legal (i.e., nuclear energy but no weapons)?

If Iran dumped its Ayatollahs (which may very well happen) I'd be less concerned, but these theocratic lunatics basically run the country right now. As an American, I know what it's like, and it ain't good.
post #48 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
All I see is you picking and chosing quotes to fit your already established agenda. Hey, let's dig up this quote by an iranian student news agency but ignore this fatwa just issued by Irans highest religious leader. So do you think is he lying, or being kept in the dark?

OK I'll play:

All I see is you picking and chosing quotes to fit your already established agenda. Hey, let's dig up this quote about a fatwa just issued by Irans highest religious leader but ignore numerous reports of "crush America". So do you think is the reports are lying, or being kept in the dark about the fatwa?

By the way here is a link and quote from the Telegraph last year:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...portaltop.html

"Seeking to underline the point, Iran showed off its ballistic missiles at an annual military parade in Teheran near the mausoleum of Iran's revolutionary leader, Ayatollah Khomeini. A banner proclaiming "Israel must be wiped off the map" was draped on the side of a 450-mile Shahab-2 missile. Another saying "We will crush America under our feet" graced a trailer carrying a 930-mile Shahab-3 missile.

"The Shahab-3 missiles, with different ranges, enable us to destroy the most distant targets," said the commentary.

Speaking at the parade, President Mohammad Khatami said Iran would not give up its "natural and legal right" to nuclear know-how, but he also tried to reassure the West.

"We've made our choice: yes to peaceful nuclear technology, no to atomic weapons," he said."

try the Asia Times, if you don't like that:

http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FI24Ak02.html

Yeah, I buy that statement made with that backdrop.





Quote:
Originally posted by New
Personally I think this is a matter of fighting a war of wills against the US. I think it's an important cause internally in Iran, and the mid-east, a show of strength and defiance. As well as a bargaining exercise, to see how hard they can squeeze the west. It has nothing to do with "blowing up israel".

Let's all hope you're right.

I would hate to be on that side of the bet, though.
post #49 of 267
Thread Starter 
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4174

At an official parade in 2003, Iran flaunted a Shihab-3 missile draped with a banner announcing: "Israel must be wiped out." A missile paraded last year declared another of Iran's targets: "We will crush America under our feet."

So... threat in 2005... Check
2004?... Check
2003?... Check

No trend here... move along.

Dare we go back even further?
post #50 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
As an American, I know what it's like, and it ain't good.

How do you know? I don't remember any 'Religious Lunatic' running America? Oh, wait..
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post #51 of 267
Ok, disregarding Naples X as he just wants to watch the blood-fest, lets get some sanity in this discussion. And establish a few points.

1) The vast majority of the 'reports' of Iranian activity t the plant in question come from Iranian expat dissidents - mainly from the LA area - I am familiar with this grouping and you will not find a more right-wing group of people anywhere on the face of the planet. They make Nappy look like Fidel Castro - indeed, many of them had to leave after the Revolution as they were US/Shah assets.

So - these are the 'expert sources'.

You will no doubt note the uncanny parallels with the Iraqi WMD scenarios where similar dissidents (also mostly CIA assets such as Chalabi) were the 'experts' who had the 'intel info'.

Unfortunately the dissidents were on the payroll and had been promised positions of power after the carnage was over and their 'info' turned out to be lies. Cost 100,000 Iraqi lives but hey - it wasn't all a waste then was it?

2) Been listening to the booga-booga all morning on the BBC - actually it is quite uncanny the parallels, I could swear their using the same script but with Khameini the Saddam role, even down to brutal torture and murder - and the main meme is the following:

"Iran hid their program years ago and we only found out by chance - how can we trust them now?'

Well, they are not hiding it are they? Basically, you could paraphrase it like this:

You tried to hide something and we had to teach you not to do things like that. When you've learnt to be open as we've requested we will only ignore this and use the fact you once hid things as a reason to attack you.

In another way: nothing you say or do will ever be believed - your fate is decided. Even of you give up your nuclear ambitions we will get you on something else: terror, fighters in iraq, having brown skin and speaking a silly language.......

3) 'Nuclear weapons are bad' and 'good' countries are cutting down on them. Except Israel and the US and UK who are busily building more - and Pakistan and India of course.

'But we won't use them' - except Bush has drawn up plans for the creation and use of mini-nukes and the use of nukes is a not a moral problem at all in the US mindset - in fact it is a commonplace and they are by far the most likely people to use them.

4) Re the link of the planned invasion of Iran (another oil grab maybe or just empire-building and murder) more in reports from German Intelligence:

Quote:
According to sources within the German Federal Intelligence Service (Bundesnachrichtendienst - BND), the Bush administration has drawn up plans to hit Iran's nuclear, other WMD, and military sites with heavy saturation bombing using bunker buster bombs and tactical nuclear weapons. The attack will be coordinated with urban and rural critical infrastructure sabotage carried out by elements of the People's Mujaheddin (MEK), Pentagon Special Operations units, and other Iranian dissident groups.

The two points to note: first, the US intends first unprovoked nuclear strike - even if you reject this article then this new policy is a fact that the administration has stated previously. Tis is the kind of people we are dealing with: sick psychopaths.

Two - the issue of the MEK. We know from previous posts that the MEK are on the CIA payroll (and may well be carrying out bombings at US behest in Iraq to blame on insurgents and/or Iran). They are an extreme terrorist bunch of murdering thugs and of course, they are great US allies - or is that tools?
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post #52 of 267
I would have jumped all over Iran in the past for seeking nuclear capabilities but after Bush broke the nuclear proliferation treaty with Russia all bets are off. The US is looking more and more like the boogieman. If we condemn the terrorist for killing people we should do the same to those who politically and through spy games reengineer countries for their own well-being. South America for example is only a shadow of what it could have been if it wasnt for the US stopping progress in its tracks by supporting rebels and dictators. The Venezuela president Hugo Chavez is my hero in that area of the world. This Iran thing reminds me of the Cuban missile crisis, the world called Russia the evildoer but it was the US who had missiles in Turkey first. With the US knocking on Irans door If I was them I would be collecting every weapon I could get my hands on.
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post #53 of 267
Thread Starter 
Let's also ignore this tasty tidbit:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...top_world_news

"The U.S. and its allies intercepted 11 shipments of nuclear materials destined for North Korea and Iran in the past nine months, under a program aimed at stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction, U.S. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said."

"Rice credited the initiative for the 2003 interdiction of the ship BBC China, saying the intercept played a ``major role'' in the unraveling of the global nuclear network of Pakistan's former chief nuclear scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan and in Libya's decision to eliminate its weapons of mass destruction programs."

"The German-owned ship bound for Libya contained thousands of centrifuges that could have been used in the production of a nuclear device.
So from Oct 2004 to June 2005, 11 shipments were made to either NK or Iran."

So how many did we miss? How long has this been going on?
post #54 of 267
Thread Starter 
Of course then there's this:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle...df30dfeed.html

"An ongoing investigation by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) has revealed that in 2002, officials of the SBU, along with high-ranking members of the Ukrainian military and the state arms-sales company UkrSpetzExport, sold at least six cruise missiles each to Iran and China."

"The Soviet-made cruise missiles in question, the KH-55 (NATO classification AS-15 Kent) and KH-55SM (NATO classification AS-15B), are capable of delivering a 200-kiloton nuclear warhead, although Omelchenko told RFE/RL on 2 February that they were not equipped with nuclear warheads when exported to Iran. The KH-55 has a range of 2,400 kilometers, and the KH-55SM has range of 2,990 kilometers. Both are designed to be launched from heavy bombers."

Yep, this points directly to "peaceful nuclear technology" development.
post #55 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, disregarding Naples X as he just wants to watch the blood-fest, lets get some sanity in this discussion. And establish a few points.

1) The vast majority of the 'reports' of Iranian activity t the plant in question come from Iranian expat dissidents - mainly from the LA area - I am familiar with this grouping and you will not find a more right-wing group of people anywhere on the face of the planet.

Perhaps, but the secret nuclear plants really did exist, and really were being hidden.

Quote:
2) "Iran hid their program years ago and we only found out by chance - how can we trust them now?'

Well, they are not hiding it are they? Basically, you could paraphrase it like this:

You tried to hide something and we had to teach you not to do things like that. When you've learnt to be open as we've requested we will only ignore this and use the fact you once hid things as a reason to attack you.

They're not hiding them anymore, because they were revealed by one of those Iranian right-wingers you mentioned. It's true that as long as there are inspectors there, it's not as troubling. But the secrecy of the earlier ones reveals something about intent, and suggests extra caution towards Iran in the future, doesn't it?
post #56 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But the secrecy of the earlier ones reveals something about intent, and suggests extra caution towards Iran in the future, doesn't it?

Not really - if they wanted to do things in secret then they still could. They are clearly showing 'goodwill' - not that this will make any difference to them being attacked.

We went through this with Iraq - people said there were no WMD's and that 1000's of innocent people would die but no one listened - they just trotted out the same old tired justifications. many of which we now know to be lies.

And guess what? Tens of thousands did die. Where does that leave us - you'd think that people would be shocked and learn the lesson but no, no-one cares. They still lap up the same lies from the same liars and when tens of thousands of Iranians are dead they won't be saying anything - just moving on to discussing invading Syria because they are balh blah blah.....
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post #57 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
We went through this with Iraq - people said there were no WMD's and that 1000's of innocent people would die but no one listened - they just trotted out the same old tired justifications. many of which we now know to be lies.

I can't find the quote, but I am pretty sure that the Iranian government has publically stated that they are pursuing nuclear weapons.

This is not CIA guesswork, so no parellel with Iraq exists.
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post #58 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I can't find the quote, but I am pretty sure that the Iranian government has publically stated that they are pursuing nuclear weapons.

This is not CIA guesswork, so no parellel with Iraq exists.

I wouldn't waste time looking for that quote if I were you.

You can safely assume that if it ever existed - or, more pertinently, if it was true - then thanks to the kindly folks at the ReichsPropagandaBureau we would all be more familiar with it than 'pretty sure'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #59 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I can't find the quote, but I am pretty sure that the Iranian government has publically stated that they are pursuing nuclear weapons.

As far as I know, that's not true. That would be kinda important.

segovius: Just because Bush is malevolent doesn't mean that Iran's mullahs are benevolent. I think it would be an absolute disaster to take military action against Iran, and I really don't think they'd do it. So I'm just not concerned about that as a possibility. Then again, I've been known to be naive before. [edit and I just read today that Cheney may run for president in 2008 ]
post #60 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
As far as I know, that's not true. That would be kinda important.

segovius: Just because Bush is malevolent doesn't mean that Iran's mullahs are benevolent. I think it would be an absolute disaster to take military action against Iran, and I really don't think they'd do it. So I'm just not concerned about that as a possibility. Then again, I've been known to be naive before. [edit and I just read today that Cheney may run for president in 2008 ]

Yes, I am no fan of the Mullahs as such - my concern would be for the people who always end up taking the brunt of all this crap.

The same thing happened in Iraq - how many of the actual torturers and criminals have been brought to justice? Hardly any - the secret police now is pretty much the same people and the the Iraqis are still suffering.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #61 of 267
Thread Starter 
Iran has everything that it needs to produce weapons grade uranium, right now. They also have the means to deliver a nuclear weapon, right now. The IAEA missed the fact that they have been pursuing it for 30 years.

They probably have nukes right now. We really don't know.

The fact that Israel hasn't attacked any targets makes me a lot suspicious.

But hey let's hope that Sego is right and we are just all being overly paranoid and Iran is a peace loving nation, as he seems to believe.

One nuke in Tel Aviv is all it will take to totally wipe out Israel. A spur of the moment bit of anger or racial hate could be more than enough.

Let's hope that "Wipe Israel off the face of the earth" is just bad interpretation on the part of some right-winger.
post #62 of 267
Really, Iran is making the same foolish mistake that Iraq made.

All this bluster and closed doors may make them feel good about themselves, but it does not make them safer. If they wanted to be safe from invasion, all they need to do is let western journalists roam freely through the country, and let the nuclear inspectors in wherever they want to go.
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post #63 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Really, Iran is making the same foolish mistake that Iraq made.

All this bluster and closed doors may make them feel good about themselves, but it does not make them safer. If they wanted to be safe from invasion, all they need to do is let western journalists roam freely through the country, and let the nuclear inspectors in wherever they want to go.

That's the point, really. Isn't it?

Sego and some here, if in power, would risk millions of lives by trusting Iran and it's fanatic leaders. Every indication is that they are pursuing nuclear weapons, even if you ignore their banners that clearly state their intentions.

All we need is love.
post #64 of 267
OK - here is the "glass half full" part.

Iran will not nuke Jerusalem because of the two big-time mosques there, if anything they will nuke Tel Aviv.

If Iran nukes Tel Aviv, I am sure that Israel will then be able to counter strike, destroying Tehran and 20 or 30 other cities in Iran.

problem solved!
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post #65 of 267
CIA has said it still thinks Iran is years away from devloping weapon grade plutonium. They estimated that in 1993 Iran was 10 years away, but since then things have slowed down.

You are quite right e12345678 that Iran would never nuke Israel, due to the fact that it has a lot holy sites, and muslims.

Quote:
by NaplesX: I see is you picking and chosing quotes to fit your already established agenda. Hey, let's dig up this quote about a fatwa just issued by Irans highest religious leader but ignore numerous reports of "crush America". So do you think is the reports are lying, or being kept in the dark about the fatwa?

I didn't dig up that quote, It was on the front page of BBC. And if you read what I said, you'd see that I posted that it needed to take it with some skepticism. But that goes for those banners as well.

Do you actually think banners in a millitary parade can be directly translated into real world politics? This is not a Inspector Gadget you know.

A lot of countries have millitary parades, and a lot of countries have banners and rhetorics that are pretty extreme in their use of words. Bush speaks of "axis of evil" and "crusades", the soviets wowed to "crush capitalism". Not to mation what the chinese used to say about the west. It's good old propaganda. Or do you think the french should start bombing the US based on the use of "cheese eating surrender-monkeys"?

In many ways Iran is actually a more democratic country then most other states in this part of the world. The do actually have an elected parliament with more power than the people who write banners in parades. You should worry more about some US allies; the Saudis, Pakistan and the central asian republics which tend to go unnoticed.
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post #66 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
CIA has said it still thinks Iran is years away from devloping weapon grade plutonium. They estimated that in 1993 Iran was 10 years away, but since then things have slowed down.

You are quite right e12345678 that Iran would never nuke Israel, due to the fact that it has a lot holy sites, and muslims.

I didn't dig up that quote, It was on the front page of BBC. And if you read what I said, you'd see that I posted that it needed to take it with some skepticism.

A news report claims the CIA has another report that supposedly claims they are ten years away. Let's be clear.

Quote:
Originally posted by New
A lot of countries have millitary parades, and a lot of countries have banners and rhetorics that are pretty extreme in their use of words. Bush speaks of "axis of evil" and "crusades",

Bush did not just call them the axis of evil for no reason, we don't have parades waving out military might with banners on the missiles with the words "Crush Iran" on them. Can you imagine?

Quote:
Originally posted by New
In many ways Iran is actually a more democratic country then most other states in this part of the world. The do actually have an elected parliament with more power than the people who write banners in parades.

But they don't have enough power to have the banners removed? Sounds like they have it under control over there.

Come on.
post #67 of 267
Quote:
Bush did not just call them the axis of evil for no reasonp

From your point of view. From their point of view, he did call them for no reason.

Which leads us to another question: what authority and expertise does Bush command to have the right to label others as 'axis of evil' and his wars as 'crusades' ?

None. Zip. Nada.
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post #68 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
From your point of view. From their point of view, he did call them for no reason.

Which leads us to another question: what authority and expertise does Bush command to have the right to label others as 'axis of evil' and his wars as 'crusades' ?

None. Zip. Nada.

Well, besides the fact he is the president of the most powerful nation on the earth, besides that really nothing.
post #69 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well, besides the fact he is the president of the most powerful nation on the earth, besides that really nothing.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #70 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
From your point of view. From their point of view, he did call them for no reason.

Well isn't that nice. They don't think they're evil.

Iran, and the other governments in that region, reject virtually everything a liberal society values. And Iran is probably the best in that region. Evil? That's beyond my pay grade. But illiberal and worthy of condemnation, not to mention frightening with the bomb? Absolutely. We'd be much safer with a Saddam-ruled Iraq with nukes than these nutballs in Iran. And unfortunately, it's likely that we've now created a true Axis of Evil between Iran and Iraq.

BTW, guess who initiated Iran's nuclear program. It was begun at the instigation of the US in the 1960s, and then halted when the Shah was deposed. Jeezus when will we learn.
post #71 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Jeezus when will we learn.

2008?
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post #72 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
[B]Well isn't that nice. They don't think they're evil.

That's not the point. The point is that Bush's words do not make for a grand truth. He may label people Axis of Evil or Asses of Evil or whatever, but that is not necessarily true.

If you believe countries are evil because Bush said so, then you are on par with NaplesX, who also believes that one can be fair/balanced as well as biased, at the same time.

Good company you got there.
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #73 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's not the point. The point is that Bush's words do not make for a grand truth. He may label people Axis of Evil or Asses of Evil or whatever, but that is not necessarily true.

This is all true. But just because Bush said it doesn't mean it is wrong either.
post #74 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
This is all true. But just because Bush said it doesn't mean it is wrong either.

True, but judging from experience, it does. However, Naples was relying on Bush's words as a Holy Testament saying that 'he did not call them axis of evil for no reason'.

He may have called them for a reason - but that reason may or may not be entirely valid. Or legitimate. Or true. Just because he called them Axis of Evil, does not mean we should behave like sheep and buy into it. As Naples is. Right now.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #75 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
True, but judging from experience, it does. However, Naples was relying on Bush's words as a Holy Testament saying that 'he did not call them axis of evil for no reason'.

Meaning... um... he had reasons to label them that. Are trying to say he has no valid reasons for labeling them that? Because it would seem that is your position.

Oh wait, you are. Duh.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
He may have called them for a reason - but that reason may or may not be entirely valid. Or legitimate. Or true. Just because he called them Axis of Evil, does not mean we should behave like sheep and buy into it. As Naples is. Right now.

I'm sure you beleived it when clinton in:

"1995 President Clinton imposes oil and trade sanctions on Iran for alleged sponsorship of "terrorism", seeking to acquire nuclear arms and hostility to the Middle East process. Iran denies the charges."

or when:

"1996 Mr Clinton stiffens sanctions with penalties against any firm that invests $40m or more a year in oil and gas projects in Iran and Libya."

- BBC

Did you publically call BC a liar also?

Hmmmm.

Oh yeah then there was:

"2000 18 February - Iranian reformists win landslide victory in general election. Shortly afterwards, President Clinton extends ban on US oil contracts with Iran, accusing it of continuing to support international terrorism."

Why couldn't he just respect that fine, upstanding democracy?
post #76 of 267
Thread Starter 
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...SANJANI-DC.XML
Quote:
In a resolution on Thursday, the governing board of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) unanimously asked Iran to resume suspension of all nuclear fuel related activities and asked the agency to verify compliance by Tehran.

Although the resolution was "drafted by Britain, Germany and France," the former leader still says
Quote:
"I am telling you to know that you could not treat Iran like Iraq or Libya," Rafsanjani told worshippers

To which the crowd of his followers replied:
Quote:
"death to America."

and right after the simply moving sermon:
Quote:
About 1,000 Iranian worshippers rallied after the Friday prayer sermon, urging their leaders to press ahead with enrichment activities. They chanted "Down with Europe," a slogan heard for the first time after the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Of coarse, during the sermon, Former Iranian president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, expressed his government's and obviously the peoples sentiment about the IAEA resolution:
Quote:
"It was astonishing and really strange...that eventually what Europeans and America wanted was approved with unanimity. How is it possible?" Rafsanjani told worshippers at Friday prayers at Tehran University.

"We didn't think that an international organization, before the eyes of the whole world, would sanction that Iran should stop everything," he added in a sermon broadcast live on state radio. "The decision was a cruel one."

Iran, which has denied Western accusations that its atomic programme is a front for covert bomb-making, resumed work at its uranium conversion plant in Isfahan on Monday.

Rafsanjani, head of the Expediency Council which arbitrates on legislative disputes between parliament and a hardline watchdog body, said Iran's decision to resume uranium conversion was irreversible.

I guess he/they just can't see why the rest of the world might be a little nervous about them possessing nuclear weapons when they encourage "death to America" and "down with Europe" and hang banners on their missiles that say "Wipe Israel off the face of the planet" or "Crush America".

"Pay no attention to the thousands of idolizing followers that are chanting and our long range ballistic missiles with death threats in bright colors and big letters. For that is simply propaganda. We love America. We simply want to produce electricity with our nuclear program that we hid for so many decades for no real reason. Can't you see we are a peace loving people?"

Suckers.
post #77 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...SANJANI-DC.XML
Although the resolution was "drafted by Britain, Germany and France," the former leader still says

To which the crowd of his followers replied:

and right after the simply moving sermon:

Of coarse, during the sermon, Former Iranian president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, expressed his government's and obviously the peoples sentiment about the IAEA resolution:

I guess he/they just can't see why the rest of the world might be a little nervous about them possessing nuclear weapons when they encourage "death to America" and "down with Europe" and hang banners on their missiles that say "Wipe Israel off the face of the planet" or "Crush America".

"Pay no attention to the thousands of idolizing followers that are chanting and our long range ballistic missiles with death threats in bright colors and big letters. For that is simply propaganda. We love America. We simply want to produce electricity with our nuclear program that we hid for so many decades for no real reason. Can't you see we are a peace loving people?"

Suckers.

Uh huh. So you're not advocating we actually do something about all of this, you're just making some observations about current events, right?

Because doing something might involve, oh, I don't know, more American soldiers getting killed, or Irani civilians getting killed, or a widening general Middle Eastern war, or shit like that.

You know, consequences. That noted liberal conspiracy.

Didn't trouble you in the least in the build up to invading Iraq, you dismissed the people who worried about consequences as Saddam lovers or worse, and you seem to be incapable of accepting that much of what the most pessimistic among us feared might be the result of that invasion has come to pass. Because other people dying for your cause isn't a problem, it's a statistic.

And here you are again, building your little check list for what constitutes an intolerable affront to America's hegemony, as if the Iraq fiasco had never happened, and your mindless parroting of whatever tattered justification du jour for the administration or its various looney apologists weren't here for all to see.

And guess what? Maybe Iran is going to be a problem, but we fucking squandered any options we have in the region with our pointless, unjustifiable and increasingly untenable invasion of Iraq.

Another consequence that you you didn't want to hear about, and figured to be motivated by "hatred for America".

So anyway, when are you going to enlist, again?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #78 of 267
NaplesX, why do you give two shits about the "international community" anyway? I thought they were a pain in the ass for you guys.

Oh wait. You forgot Poland!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #79 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Uh huh. So you're not advocating we actually do something about all of this, you're just making some observations about current events, right?

Because doing something might involve, oh, I don't know, more American soldiers getting killed, or Irani civilians getting killed, or a widening general Middle Eastern war, or shit like that.

You know, consequences. That noted liberal conspiracy.

Didn't trouble you in the least in the build up to invading Iraq, you dismissed the people who worried about consequences as Saddam lovers or worse, and you seem to be incapable of accepting that much of what the most pessimistic among us feared might be the result of that invasion has come to pass. Because other people dying for your cause isn't a problem, it's a statistic.

And here you are again, building your little check list for what constitutes an intolerable affront to America's hegemony, as if the Iraq fiasco had never happened, and your mindless parroting of whatever tattered justification du jour for the administration or its various looney apologists weren't here for all to see.

And guess what? Maybe Iran is going to be a problem, but we fucking squandered any options we have in the region with our pointless, unjustifiable and increasingly untenable invasion of Iraq.

Another consequence that you you didn't want to hear about, and figured to be motivated by "hatred for America".

So anyway, when are you going to enlist, again?

Everyone around the globe knows that the US will commit it's soldiers to what it sees as worthwhile causes and last I checked, we had an all-volunteer military. They volunteer despite the uncertainty of mission and deployment. And I am sure, just like in Vietnam, those fallen would not want you to pity them, rather support their friends that are still in the fight.

Consequences, are a result of any action and more so of inaction. Just look at the UN. It should have been reformed decades ago, but no-one wanted to rock the boat, so now entered into the history books is the largest scandal in world history. One could also argue that this current job should have been started back in GW1.

Now, Iran has declared war publicly, for years by-the-by, and is sending death squads and bombers trained by Hizballah, you remember that other peace-loving entity libs like to celebrate and defend:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...093747,00.html

"The U.S. Military's new nemesis in Iraq is named Abu Mustafa al-Sheibani, and he is not a Baathist or a member of al-Qaeda. He is working for Iran. According to a U.S. military-intelligence document obtained by TIME, al-Sheibani heads a network of insurgents created by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps with the express purpose of committing violence against U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. Over the past eight months, his group has introduced a new breed of roadside bomb more lethal than any seen before; based on a design from the Iranian-backed Lebanese militia Hizballah, the weapon employs "shaped" explosive charges that can punch through a battle tank's armor like a fist through the wall. According to the document, the U.S. believes al-Sheibani's team consists of 280 members, divided into 17 bombmaking teams and death squads. The U.S. believes they train in Lebanon, in Baghdad's predominantly Shi'ite Sadr City district and "in another country" and have detonated at least 37 bombs against U.S. forces this year in Baghdad alone."
post #80 of 267
Whatever our political positions, we all tend to agree that one should learn from history or at least study it.

My particular interest is the period of the 1930's in Germany and there is much interesting documentation from this era. One of my favourites are the journals of William Shirer who wrote perhaps the definitive history - The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Particularly enlightening for the present moment in our own current descent into madness is the following excerpt from his Berlin Diaries - Journals of a Foreign Correspondent. The entry is dated August 10, 1939:

Quote:
How completely isolated a world the German people live in. A glance at the newspapers yesterday and today reminds you of it. Whereas all the rest of the world considers that the peace is about to be broken by Germany, that it is Germany that is threatening to attack Poland over Danzig, here in Germany, in the world the local newspapers create, the very reverse is being maintained. (Not that it surprises me, but when you are away for a while, you forget.) What the Nazi papers are proclaiming is this: that it is Poland which is disturbing the peace of Europe; Poland which is threatening Germany with armed invasion, and so forth. This is the Germany of last September when the steam was turned on Czechoslavakia.

For perverse perversion of the truth, this is good. You ask: But the German people can't possibly believe these lies? Then you talk to them. So many do.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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