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Iran thumbs it's nose at International Community... Again - Page 3

post #81 of 267
The NeoConspirators look as if their six-year old plan for war against Iran is in trouble. Iran might have been telling the truth all along as regards its nuclear energy program being for peaceful means only, while yet again, the Bush Administration has been trotting out another series of lies, booga booga, and scaremongering. (What's new?)

In 2003, UN weapons inspectors found of trace amounts of weapons grade uranium in Iran. Analysis of this material indicates that it originated in Pakistan. If the NeoCons must pursue their global war against Muslims, who account for over a billion people worldwide, then the reasoning for it should be a little more watertight.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle305741.ece
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #82 of 267
Thread Starter 
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...ion-commentary

Quote:
WE DON'T respect or understand any religious or nationalist fervor other than our own. That myopic distortion has been a persistent historical failure of U.S. foreign policy, but it has reached the point of total blindness in the Bush administration.

Right because the president of the US is supposed to administer based on another nation's religious or national fervor.
Quote:
If diplomacy fails, "all options are on the table," Bush said. "You know, we've used force in the recent past to secure our country." But it was precisely Bush's use of preemptive force against Iraq that now makes it so difficult to pressure Iran to abandon its worrisome nuclear program.

Except that the US military is now Iran's next door neighbor.

Quote:
Bush's Iran policy is rife with contradictions and idiocies. What, for example, is the point of publicly threatening Iran when doing so immeasurably strengthens the hand of hard-line nationalists and religious fundamentalists in Tehran? These are the people who, for more than a century, have secured much of their appeal by posturing as the protectors of the Muslim populace against Western imperialism.

"Western imperialism" is a myth that only the weak-minded believe in.

And I love this one:

Quote:
If Iran were to send its fanatical revolutionary guards into Iraq as saboteurs, they could make the current carnage seem like a walk in the park.

Oops, it's already happening:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...093747,00.html

"The U.S. Military's new nemesis in Iraq is named Abu Mustafa al-Sheibani, and he is not a Baathist or a member of al-Qaeda. He is working for Iran. According to a U.S. military-intelligence document obtained by TIME, al-Sheibani heads a network of insurgents created by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps with the express purpose of committing violence against U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. Over the past eight months, his group has introduced a new breed of roadside bomb more lethal than any seen before; based on a design from the Iranian-backed Lebanese militia Hizballah, the weapon employs "shaped" explosive charges that can punch through a battle tank's armor like a fist through the wall. According to the document, the U.S. believes al-Sheibani's team consists of 280 members, divided into 17 bombmaking teams and death squads. The U.S. believes they train in Lebanon, in Baghdad's predominantly Shi'ite Sadr City district and "in another country" and have detonated at least 37 bombs against U.S. forces this year in Baghdad alone"

Quote:
And finally, Iran is one of the world's biggest oil exporters. At a time when oil prices are soaring, much of the rest of the world would be hesitant to back the United States in any adventure that could cut off the flow.

Time to uncap Alaska and every other restricted drilling area. Wake up.

Quote:
As German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder put it accurately on Sunday in response to Bush's comments: "Let's take the military option off the table. We have seen it doesn't work."

Translation: "We are supplying Iran with weapons and restricted materials" - just like Iraq.

I see now where you guys get your verbal ammo.

post #83 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Except that the US military is now Iran's next door neighbor.

On both sides. But they're kinda busy with other things.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #84 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
On both sides. But they're kinda busy with other things.

However, that does not mean that they are not using their strategic placement to gather intel or that they could not easily deploy.
post #85 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
However, that does not mean that they are not using their strategic placement to gather intel or that they could not easily deploy.

It doesn't mean they're not having tea parties on Sunday, either. The quagmire/morass/clusterfuck of Iraq, as well as the tightly secured city of Kabul there on the other side, does mean that they can't easily deploy.

Unless you want the troops out of Iraq? Call it a failure (their fault! not ours! Stupid Iraqis!) and move on (to Iran! To Syria!)?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #86 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
However, that does not mean that they are not using their strategic placement to gather intel or that they could not easily deploy.

The only strategic placing they are doing is planting fake evidence that the hapless hypnotized sheep are too numbed to see through.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #87 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The only strategic placing they are doing is planting fake evidence that the hapless hypnotized sheep are too numbed to see through.

Don't forget a few hours planning and a motorcade just to leave the green zone for lunch. Or didn't NaplesX (I always want this to be naplex...like simplex) watch the recent Frontline documentary about Iraq?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #88 of 267
So to sum it up screw diplomacy, nuke the bastards, western-imperialism is a figment of the week-minded and lets drill the shitt out of protected areas if others dont put out. Wow, I think you need to travel the world a little. These are just people like you or me. I dont think you have the right to pass judgment on something you just read about from some Right-Wing blog, visit Iran or Iraq and Im sure youll do everything to avoid a conflict. These people in general are very generous and hospitable. Like any country the nuts only make up a small fracture of the populous, unfortunately its also the nuts that seem to have the control like in the U.S.

It is our job as the regular joe to criticize them and bring them down to earth, not to encourage them further.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #89 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
I think you need to travel the world a little. These are just people like you or me. I dont think you have the right to pass judgment on something you just read about from some Right-Wing blog, visit Iran or Iraq and Im sure youll do everything to avoid a conflict. These people in general are very generous and hospitable.

Yeah - how about it? I'll put an offer on the table - you grab a camera and we'll meet in Istanbul and go overland to Syria and Iran. You can film and interview people and post it on your blog - whatever it is.

In fact, why don't we set up a specific project for this - see whether you change your views at all or not. We can set up a Paypal account for donations to buy your ticket to Istanbul - someone trusted here can administer it.

How about it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #90 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
So to sum it up screw diplomacy, nuke the bastards, western-imperialism is a figment of the week-minded and lets drill the shitt out of protected areas if others dont put out. Wow, I think you need to travel the world a little. These are just people like you or me. I dont think you have the right to pass judgment on something you just read about from some Right-Wing blog, visit Iran or Iraq and Im sure youll do everything to avoid a conflict. These people in general are very generous and hospitable. Like any country the nuts only make up a small fracture of the populous, unfortunately its also the nuts that seem to have the control like in the U.S.

It is our job as the regular joe to criticize them and bring them down to earth, not to encourage them further.

Let me tell you what's funny. I remember discussing Iraq right as we were going in (that's when I started posting here) everyone was saying "Why not Iran or Korea, they are more of a threat."

I of course argued that it wouldn't matter what country the US put its target on under Bush, the left would call it unnecessary or war-mongering or neo-con bloodlust or something and make excuses for the offending country.

It appears that I was 100% correct. Isn't that funny?
post #91 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Let me tell you what's funny. I remember discussing Iraq right as we were going in (that's when I started posting here) everyone was saying "Why not Iran or Korea, they are more of a threat."

I of course argued that it wouldn't matter what country the US put its target on under Bush, the left would call it unnecessary or war-mongering or neo-con bloodlust or something and make excuses for the offending country.

It appears that I was 100% correct. Isn't that funny?

What's funny is that the whole point of what "everyone was saying" apparently went clear over your head.
post #92 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What's funny is that the whole point of what "everyone was saying" apparently went clear over your head.

Indeed.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #93 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yeah - how about it? I'll put an offer on the table - you grab a camera and we'll meet in Istanbul and go overland to Syria and Iran. You can film and interview people and post it on your blog - whatever it is.

In fact, why don't we set up a specific project for this - see whether you change your views at all or not. We can set up a Paypal account for donations to buy your ticket to Istanbul - someone trusted here can administer it.

How about it?

I would love to do that. However, i don't need to travel the world to realize that most humans are peace-loving good people. I have expressed that very same sentiment on these boards countless times. In same way, most Americans share that same trait.

What you seem to forget or perhaps not realize is the ME is the front lines of WWIII or WWIV, however you wish to name it. Radical muslims have decided that now is the time they will take over the world and have thusly declared war on the rest of humanity. The evidence of this is all around you, if you choose to look.

You point to the prolonged engagement in Iraq as proof that US policy is a failure. I will point out to you that it is proof of the greater fight against Radical muslims. Iran is run by radical muslims. Iran is sending in radical muslim fighters to fight the US, so has Syria with the help of, once again, Iran. Iranians going into Iraq to fight are trained by Hizbullah, another radical muslim entity.

Radical Islam has already proven that it can win a propaganda war with the help of apologists that call terrorists "freedom fighters" and describe Gitmo as a "Gulag". They have proven that the US courts will uphold their rights over law abiding citizen's right to be protected by the government. They have proven that the US has no fortitude to stay in the fight, as Iraq is proving. The US education system has adopted Islam as an expectable alternative to indigenous religions. We have seen the adoption of "America is evil" by a big percentage of it's own population.

So as you could easily ascertain, Radical Islam has no reason to stop fighting for it's interests when the a large portion of the US doesn't even think their own are worth defending.

Iran is just getting bolder and will continue until they are smacked down. I'm not talking about the population, but rather the ruling class there. How har it is to do it depends on how long it is put off. Iran with nukes will cost lives that will make most other tragedies pale.
post #94 of 267
Oops.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #95 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yeah - how about it? I'll put an offer on the table - you grab a camera and we'll meet in Istanbul and go overland to Syria and Iran. You can film and interview people and post it on your blog - whatever it is.

In fact, why don't we set up a specific project for this - see whether you change your views at all or not. We can set up a Paypal account for donations to buy your ticket to Istanbul - someone trusted here can administer it.

How about it?


Cool, I'm game. I actually go to Turkey once every two years so I happen to know someone who can smuggle us over into Syria.

I think your missing the point; Im saying people are basically the same all over the world. They want a healthy normal life, its the ones the seek power, control and money that make things uncomfortable for everyone.

Switzerland is currently a large haven for Iraqi refugees and it so happens that I currently live next to one, he was even an ex Iraqi officer. He is one of the nicest guys I have ever known, when I bought my cheesy closet set from Ikea he was the first one to offer to help put together (and this thing was a thousand piece nightmare). During Ramadan Im invited constantly to feast with him and his wife at night. Now heres where my point comes in I also have a neighbor who is a Kurd, now even though both neighbors are Sunni according to past media exposure these two should not socialize on any level. However we all sit together as humans and watch the Simpsons, Football, play cards or whatever.

It vexes me to no end when threads like this only focus on the state of affairs and not the individuals living in it. Iran is doing this so we should bomb them or Iran is doing that so we should embargo them. Not paying attention that this will cause suffering for the people and not the leaders. Its also very hypocritical for a country to go after another for doing something that themselves are doing.

I have a US and Swiss passport, born in ST. Thomas, raised in California and learned about true meaning of life in Switzerland. I have been to over 34 (5 of which are Muslim) countries most while in the military, yes I served LT(03) US Navy (E.O.D.). I have stayed in huts with people so poor that if they fed me one of them would have to go hungry for the evening. However they would rather feed me as a guest and go hungry then loose face as a bad host. This world is beautiful place full of beautiful people.

War should be the last measure of any government; if we happen to go to war that administration should be removed for not coming up with a clever way of getting us out. The only justification for War is to protect the populous.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #96 of 267
Naples: Somebody burned down town hall, we must douse that house with gasoline.

Us: But nobody involved with the Town Hall burning lives there. They live over there and there and there.

Naples: No matter. They have been know to light matches in that house, which is good enough for me.

Us: But dousing a house with gasoline is crazy and has bad consequences and did we mention nobody that had anything to do with the arson lives there?

Naples: Arsonists. Fire lovers. Gasoline it is.

(some time later)

Us: Well, that house certainly is ablaze. Lotta people dead, including firemen. We told you it was a bad idea.

Naples: The fight against arson goes on. Fight fire with fire. Time to pour gasoline on the house next door.

Us: Oh, for fuck's sake, what is wrong with you?

Naples: Arsonists. Fire lovers.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #97 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Cool, I'm game. I actually go to Turkey once every two years so I happen to know someone who can smuggle us over into Syria.

I think your missing the point; Im saying people are basically the same all over the world. They want a healthy normal life, its the ones the seek power, control and money that make things uncomfortable for everyone.

Switzerland is currently a large haven for Iraqi refugees and it so happens that I currently live next to one, he was even an ex Iraqi officer. He is one of the nicest guys I have ever known, when I bought my cheesy closet set from Ikea he was the first one to offer to help put together (and this thing was a thousand piece nightmare). During Ramadan Im invited constantly to feast with him and his wife at night. Now heres where my point comes in I also have a neighbor who is a Kurd, now even though both neighbors are Sunni according to past media exposure these two should not socialize on any level. However we all sit together as humans and watch the Simpsons, Football, play cards or whatever.

It vexes me to no end when threads like this only focus on the state of affairs and not the individuals living in it. Iran is doing this so we should bomb them or Iran is doing that so we should embargo them. Not paying attention that this will cause suffering for the people and not the leaders. Its also very hypocritical for a country to go after another for doing something that themselves are doing.

I have a US and Swiss passport, born in ST. Thomas, raised in California and learned about true meaning of life in Switzerland. I have been to over 34 (5 of which are Muslim) countries most while in the military, yes I served LT(03) US Navy (E.O.D.). I have stayed in huts with people so poor that if they fed me one of them would have to go hungry for the evening. However they would rather feed me as a guest and go hungry then loose face as a bad host. This world is beautiful place full of beautiful people.

War should be the last measure of any government; if we happen to go to war that administration should be removed for not coming up with a clever way of getting us out. The only justification for War is to protect the populous.

I agree or go along with everything you said in that post, minus the last paragraph.

Iran, specifically those who rule Iran, or at the very least, parts of the ruling class have openly declared war on the US and Israel. That same government is sending fighters - probably generally good people - into Iraq, to kill US soldiers and Iraqi citizens. That government is helping Syria to send in fighters- also generally good people - to kill US soldiers and Iraqi citizens. That government is seeking amidst all of this to become a nuclear power and have purchased intercontinental ballistic missiles for nuclear use, while claiming it's nuclear efforts are peaceful. US soldiers, by the way, are also for the most part kind and generous individuals.

But once again, I must point out the obvious difference - US soldiers are not targeting civilians. Just the opposite, they are trying to protect them from terrorists or so-called "nice guys" that are being misled by bad leaders.

Additionally, if you look at the tactics of Radical Islam they are willing to target "good people" and even their own "good" people and sacrifice them as human shields to forward their cause.

So it seems to me, that war is not always as avoidable as you seem to make it out to be, specially when you are dealing with radicals.
post #98 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Naples: Somebody burned down town hall, we must douse that house with gasoline.

Us: But nobody involved with the Town Hall burning lives there. They live over there and there and there.

Naples: No matter. They have been know to light matches in that house, which is good enough for me.

Us: But dousing a house with gasoline is crazy and has bad consequences and did we mention nobody that had anything to do with the arson lives there?

Naples: Arsonists. Fire lovers. Gasoline it is.

(some time later)

Us: Well, that house certainly is ablaze. Lotta people dead, including firemen. We told you it was a bad idea.

Naples: The fight against arson goes on. Fight fire with fire. Time to pour gasoline on the house next door.

Us: Oh, for fuck's sake, what is wrong with you?

Naples: Arsonists. Fire lovers.

Right... cuz... yeah... that's exactly like this conversation... and its... well... clever also.

Teeheehee... hee.

post #99 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Us: But nobody involved with the Town Hall burning lives there. They live over there and there and there.

I think you meant "they're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #100 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I think you meant "they're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #101 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Cool, I'm game. I actually go to Turkey once every two years so I happen to know someone who can smuggle us over into Syria.

I think your missing the point; Im saying people are basically the same all over the world. They want a healthy normal life, its the ones the seek power, control and money that make things uncomfortable for everyone.

Switzerland is currently a large haven for Iraqi refugees and it so happens that I currently live next to one, he was even an ex Iraqi officer. He is one of the nicest guys I have ever known, when I bought my cheesy closet set from Ikea he was the first one to offer to help put together (and this thing was a thousand piece nightmare). During Ramadan Im invited constantly to feast with him and his wife at night. Now heres where my point comes in I also have a neighbor who is a Kurd, now even though both neighbors are Sunni according to past media exposure these two should not socialize on any level. However we all sit together as humans and watch the Simpsons, Football, play cards or whatever.

It vexes me to no end when threads like this only focus on the state of affairs and not the individuals living in it. Iran is doing this so we should bomb them or Iran is doing that so we should embargo them. Not paying attention that this will cause suffering for the people and not the leaders. Its also very hypocritical for a country to go after another for doing something that themselves are doing.

I have a US and Swiss passport, born in ST. Thomas, raised in California and learned about true meaning of life in Switzerland. I have been to over 34 (5 of which are Muslim) countries most while in the military, yes I served LT(03) US Navy (E.O.D.). I have stayed in huts with people so poor that if they fed me one of them would have to go hungry for the evening. However they would rather feed me as a guest and go hungry then loose face as a bad host. This world is beautiful place full of beautiful people.

War should be the last measure of any government; if we happen to go to war that administration should be removed for not coming up with a clever way of getting us out. The only justification for War is to protect the populous.

My bad - I was addressing Nappy - should have made it clearer. Apologies. You can tag along too though if you like.

I don't think any smuggling will be necessary - I've done it many times. Not sure about US passports though.......

Let's do this - but we need some rabid wingers on board. This is educational not R & R......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #102 of 267
Why do you all have to propose this after I get back from London?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #103 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Not paying attention that this will cause suffering for the people and not the leaders.

For every decision made by a politician, you can point to somebody that suffers from it. Thats what politicians do - if they act a certain population suffers, and if they don't a different population suffers.

If the politicians went by your logic of "don't do anything that will ever hurt somebody", then the world would be stuck in stasis.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #104 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
If the politicians went by your logic of "don't do anything that will ever hurt somebody", then the world would be stuck in stasis.

Sometimes that is better than going backwards....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #105 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX

Of Germany:

Translation: "We are supplying Iran with weapons and restricted materials" - just like Iraq.

Another NaplesX classic! He does NOT disappoint.
meh
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meh
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post #106 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Sometimes that is better than going backwards....

No it is not. Europe slipped into facism before WWII because the people got tired of the government not getting anthing done. Democracy was too chaotic, with too many political parties - with so many voices nothing got done, and people longed for the good old days of dictators. The government has to do things, or the country falls apart.

I don't consider "this person got hurt" as a valid argument for discrediting a pollitical decision. It is convienient to pick out those people to reinforce your argument when you disagree to start out with, but rarely is the whole situation looked at (X number of people benefited or were not killed, and at the same time Y number of people were hurt or killed).

Clinton failing to act resulted in more deaths than GWB acting, so who is more to blame?
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post #107 of 267
Quote:
Europe slipped into facism before WWII because the people got tired of the government not getting anthing done.

At what Oliver Stone 'classic' did you pick that one up?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #108 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
At what Oliver Stone 'classic' did you pick that one up?

It's unbelievable isn't it - the declining standards of reasoning and research never fail to amaze me. It seems that the only qualifier these days for something to be deemed as universally true is merely to say it.

So, to talk to the wall for a bit: Europe never 'sank into fascism'. One country on that continent - Germany - embraced something that we now know was fascism but that was sold to the populace in another manner, and then this doctrine, once accepted by the unthinking masses was exported by force to its neighbours.

The parallels with our current situation are uncanny.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #109 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It's unbelievable isn't it - the declining standards of reasoning and research never fail to amaze me. It seems that the only qualifier these days for something to be deemed as universally true is merely to say it.

So, to talk to the wall for a bit: Europe never 'sank into fascism'. One country on that continent - Germany - embraced something that we now know was fascism but that was sold to the populace in another manner, and then this doctrine, once accepted by the unthinking masses was exported by force to its neighbours.

The parallels with our current situation are uncanny.

Don't forget Italy.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #110 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Don't forget Italy.

Ok, and Spain but it wasn't because people were 'tired of the government not getting things done'.

I think fascism may be a wee bit more complex (and darker) than that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #111 of 267
No facism is about being tired. That's it. Stay away from those sleeping pills.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #112 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
For every decision made by a politician, you can point to somebody that suffers from it. Thats what politicians do - if they act a certain population suffers, and if they don't a different population suffers.

If the politicians went by your logic of "don't do anything that will ever hurt somebody", then the world would be stuck in stasis.

Actually this statement applies to just about any leader or decision maker.
post #113 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
At what Oliver Stone 'classic' did you pick that one up?

"Dark Continent: Europe's 20th Century", by Mark Mazower
ISBN 0-679-75704-X

The entire first chapter "Democracies rise and fall" talks about this - it was all over Europe. The only democracies that survived the fall into dictatorship were ones that limited public participation in individual votes, replaced proportional representation with "winner take all", and limited the number of pollitical parties.
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post #114 of 267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I don't consider "this person got hurt" as a valid argument for discrediting a pollitical decision. It is convienient to pick out those people to reinforce your argument when you disagree to start out with, but rarely is the whole situation looked at (X number of people benefited or were not killed, and at the same time Y number of people were hurt or killed).

Clinton failing to act resulted in more deaths than GWB acting, so who is more to blame?

Exactly.

This current war with iraq and the general ME issue is a result of many decisions over many years by many people.

This is exactly what I hate about knee-jerk point-the-finger-way-from-yourself political reactionaries, some of whom roam these very cyber-hallways.

Stating - or implying as just about every thread and every post by some here - that Iraq is Bush's war is simply being intellectually dishonest. It is just as much Saddam's War, UN's war or even Bush 1's War. Decisions made on both sides of the political spectrum have ulimately led to the situation that Bush was forced to deal with.

That is the real situation and we all know it.
post #115 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Clinton failing to act resulted in more deaths than GWB acting, so who is more to blame?

I assume you mean failing to get bin Laden? He did go after him, and many Republicans criticized him for it. And this was before 9/11. And of course Bush was in office for quite a while before 9/11, and after the Cole bombing. Does he get the same blame you're giving Clinton? If not, why not?
post #116 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I assume you mean failing to get bin Laden? He did go after him, and many Republicans criticized him for it. And this was before 9/11. And of course Bush was in office for quite a while before 9/11, and after the Cole bombing. Does he get the same blame you're giving Clinton? If not, why not?

Failed to act and stop genocide in Rwanda.

Pulled out of Somolia when victory would have been easy (the dictator was out of ammunition when they left after "black hawk down")

Went into Haiti, gathered information, changed mind, pulled out, all informants (who had been promised protection) were murdered.

etc.
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post #117 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, and Spain but it wasn't because people were 'tired of the government not getting things done'.

I think fascism may be a wee bit more complex (and darker) than that.

According to Giovanni Gentile (via Mussolini), who coined the phrase, so he should have known, Fascism is the "merging of state and corporate power, the blending of nationalism and corporatism"...."crush and eliminate organized labor, trade unions and organizations of the working class".

Kinda getting fashionable again ...
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #118 of 267
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Pulled out of Somolia when victory would have been easy (the dictator was out of ammunition when they left after "black hawk down").

lol, on what planet?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #119 of 267
Indeed, I seem to remember both the right and left wings going batshit when Clinton invaded Somalia. I also seem to remember the right wing calling for his head.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #120 of 267
Thread Starter 
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...USSIA-IRAN.xml

Surprise, surprise, Russia will fail to stand up to Iran.

Translation: "We are supplying then with prohibited materials and weapons." - just like Iraq.

Any day now the French will chime in for three part harmony. "We don't support force"

It's such a pretty song, albeit old now.
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