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If you were running for president, what would your platform be? - Page 2

post #41 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:30pm
  • Anders
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
It is a simple fact that 2000 could have been flipped by any state with 4 EVs or more.

I am not discounting the the large states. But they are not the whole story.

I am not discounting the smaller states either. I just say that the EC does not benefit the smaller states in particular. It benefits swing states.
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post #42 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by cybermonkey
The UK falls into this area too



Was going alright over there till someone decided they wanted to be different

Come on you lot, come back into the fold and join the commonwealth, You know you like our flag

( Hides under a rock untell the dust settles )

The red coats are coming!! The red coats are coming!!

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post #43 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I mean that doctors, nurses, medical equipment and supplies, hospitals, clinics, etc. cost $. It is paid for some way. In your case probably through your taxes. It is not likely through the generous donation of time, services, supplies and facilities. But...even if that was the case, there is an economic (opportunity) cost associated with it.

Health care is not free.

And you are not stupid. Free health care means that people don't pay directly for healt care services.

EDIT: And it's totally doable...(!)
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post #44 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
And you are not stupid. Free health care means that people don't pay directly for healt care services.

Not paying directly != free. Not paying directly makes it easier to swallow? Yes. Not paying directly makes it easier to disguise? Sure enough. Not paying directly makes it subtley different? Maybe.
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post #45 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:33pm
  • Anders
  • Feared and Biased Moderator
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Is that your way of saying those sources are all wrong?

No. its my way of saying you don´t make an argument by linking to a lot of sites you found with an google search.

BTW remember: Jobs is god. Look for yourself.
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post #46 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
No. its my way of saying you don´t make an argument by linking to a lot of sites you found with an google search.

BTW remember: Jobs is god. Look for yourself.

Now you are being silly. You could look at any ONE of those links and see the common reasons/arguments that were used to construct the EC. I could paste the whole damn text...but but why?
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post #47 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:38pm
  • Anders
  • Feared and Biased Moderator
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Now you are being silly. You could look at any ONE of those links and see the common reasons/arguments that were used to construct the EC. I could paste the whole damn text...but but why?

If you think its valid arguments then make your own case for them.
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post #48 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
If you think its valid arguments then make your own case for them.

First, if you read the sequence of posts, you'd see that I was providing sources for the "small state" argument to one poster that asked for it. EDIT: The multiple liks ought to demonstrate that it isn't/wasn't some obscure idea in the formation of the EC. It wasn't the only reason though.

Secondly, if I think that the arguments that were used originally are valid, coherent and reasonable, then it really isn't necessary to simply parrot them here for your benefit.

I know what the reasons for the EC are, and think they are still largely valid. Most that call for its abolishment are usually doing so because they were pissed off that W won in 2000 (and even 2004). Though I suspect we wouldn't hear from them if things had gone the other way...and if W had rec'd a majority of the popular vote but lost the EC. Of course, we'd be hearing the same from a different crowd to be sure.
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post #49 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Not paying directly != free. Not paying directly makes it easier to swallow? Yes. Not paying directly makes it easier to disguise? Sure enough. Not paying directly makes it subtley different? Maybe.

Are you incapable of making normal arguments? Everyone knows that. Free healtcare refers to the policy of not having the user pay for healthcare directly.

Just like you consider the internet free. Of course it's not. Someone somewhere paid something for you to be able to read this.
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post #50 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Are you incapable of making normal arguments? Everyone knows that. Free healtcare refers to the policy of not having the user pay for healthcare directly.

Well then the term "free" is being mis-used...and I, for one, would like to use words as they were meant to be. If you are using "free" in the feedom sense of it, then we have that regardless of the payment system used. If you are talking about equal access without regard to insured-status...that is "universal healthcare".

Quote:
Originally posted by New
Just like you consider the internet free.

I don't consider the internet free.

Quote:
Originally posted by New
Someone somewhere paid something for you to be able to read this.

Huh?


NOTE 1: I am not arguing against universal health care. I am actually quite favorable to the idea. But it is not free (as in beer) or more free (as in speech) that current health care system as in the U.S.

NOTE 2: I would also call someone on the mat for suggesting that universal healthcare system lead to "rationing" and "free market" health care systems do not.
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post #51 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:53pm
  • Anders
  • Feared and Biased Moderator
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
First, if you read the sequence of posts, you'd see that I was providing sources for the "small state" argument to one posted that asked for it.

I read the first link. It doesn´t mention the small state argument

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Secondly, if I think that the arguments that were used originally are valid, coherent and reasonable, then it really isn't necessary to simply parrot them here for your benefit.

Sorry Chris. That is just too weak. Then we could convert this forum to an link spam celebration

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I know what the reasons for the EC are, and think they are still largely valid. Most that call for its abolishment are usually doing so because they were pissed off that W won in 2000 (and even 2004). Though I suspect we wouldn't hear from them if things had gone the other way...and if W had rec'd a majority of the popular vote but lost the EC. Of course, we'd be hearing the same from a different crowd to be sure.

You know? Do you have statements from those opposing the EC provin that? Do you have any statistics?

I have said here publicly, BEFORE the 2000 election, that in my eyes Nixon deserved the presidency (edit: in 1960 of course. Not after he proved himself to be a crook). It doesn´t matter who benefits from it to me. The EC is a wrong way of electing the prime/prez in all cases.
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post #52 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:56pm
New, if you stepped into the current American zietgiest on healthcare, where people go to the doctor for entertainment, where homeopathy is still considered worse that witchcraft -- and gave that mindset 'free' healtcare, it would be like giving away heroin at a rock concert.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #53 of 120
8/14/05 at 2:57pm
  • Ebby
  • RIAA's Most Wanted
Me...

-Finish this darn war
-Balance Copyright laws (The DMCA is horribly one-sided. Needs consumer rights)
-Speeches/Interviews will also be downloadable using Bittorrent.
-Support science through funding/visits
-Increase funding for schools and de-emphasize some importance on homework. (In my community, it is no longer about learning, but used to keep kids indoors. Add a curfew, and I was a prisoner in my own house.)
-No outside influence from businesses in congress. (This is by the people, for the people, remember?) Any bribes/funds/connections is grounds for expulsion.
Oh, health care...
-Allow import of cheaper drugs as long as they meet the same standards as ours.
-Redo the health care situation. It is disastrous! Require itemized bills detailing each cost. Things get very expensive fast if you don't know what you are paying for.

I'll keep adding to this, but I have things to do ant this is taking longer than I expected.
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post #54 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I wonder if those interested in abolishing the electoral college know the why's and wherefore's of its existence.

Of course. The Electoral College was a great way of enduring fairness. But the nation has changed dramatically since then, while the Electoral College has remained static.
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post #55 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:04pm
oh, you're twisting words. How mature.

Seems to me the use of the two terms is loose and interchangeable. google search

Edit: universal healthcare seems to be a term used mainly in the US.
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post #56 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
But the nation has changed dramatically since then, while the Electoral College has remained static.

Well, it hasn't remained entirely static. But, more importantly, in what ways have the nation changed that warrant a change in the EC?

Does everyone really want a direct popular election of the president?
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post #57 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:06pm
  • Anders
  • Feared and Biased Moderator
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Does everyone really want a direct popular election of the president?

Yes I want to spre<d democracy all over the world. I don´t see why a republican voter in California shouldn´t count as much as a democratic one.
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post #58 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
oh, you're twisting words. How mature.

Seems to me the use of the two terms is loose and interchangeable. google search

I am not twisting words or their meanings in any way. Free has specific meanings. Period. Just because propagandist/marketing/publicity people wish to attach it to a plan (universal health care) in order to make it more appealing isn't my fault.

Health care is not free (as in beer) in any way, shape or form. It should not be labeled as such.

BTW...did you even bother to look at the first three links of that search?
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post #59 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I don´t see why a republican voter in California shouldn´t count as much as a democratic one.

Huh?
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post #60 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:13pm
  • Anders
  • Feared and Biased Moderator
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Huh?

If one billion voters of state X votes republican and one billion and one vote democratic then the republicans could have stayed home.
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post #61 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
While it certainly wasn't the only issue. It was one.

http://jceb.co.jackson.mo.us/fun_stu...al_college.htm

http://uselectionatlas.org/INFORMATI...ge_history.php

http://www.motherjones.com/commentar...10/10_202.html

http://www.multied.com/elections/Ele...collgewhy.html

For more:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

Oh come on, I can google too, and I know it's a common argument made for it today. But I know of no arguments that were made that the electoral college would "protect small states" at the time. It was all about finding someone other than the people or the Congress to select the president. If you can find some original statements or historical analyses with citations, I'd be interested.
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post #62 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
BTW...did you even bother to look at the first three links of that search?

The second link is a UN site describing healthcare delivered without cost to the receiver as "free healthcare".

So you have a more correct term, and my first language is not english.

You knew perfectly well what it meant, but still had to behave like an ass.
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post #63 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:24pm
New, do you not have any co-pays or deductibles in your system, i.e., do you not pay anything at all besides general taxes?
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post #64 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I wonder if those interested in abolishing the electoral college know the why's and wherefore's of its existence.

"Wherefore" means "why."
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post #65 of 120
8/14/05 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
New, do you not have any co-pays or deductibles in your system, i.e., do you not pay anything at all besides general taxes?

Hehe, good question. We have an entry fee in the healthcare system caped at about 100$, meaning that you have to pay a fee on doctors visits and hospital procedures, medicie or travle to and from hospital of about 10 $, which can be reclaimed in soem cases. But when yuor expenses reaches just above 100$, these fees stop. i guess this is a form of "co-pay" right?

We pay a lot of toll gates at road, which is supposed to go directly to road-improvement.

We pay a fee for national television, which is always a hot debate. But that's about it.

We have a 24% VAT (12% and non on some services). There are also extra taxes in some areas like gas and electricity and special tolls.

Companies pay direct taxes for employees social services.

The taxes are divded about 85% / 15% between the state and the local municipalities and counties.

And we have a progressive tax system where the less you make the less percentage you pay. The Really rich hide there income here, as everywhere else of course.
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post #66 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
You knew perfectly well what it meant, but still had to behave like an ass.

Yes, I did know what you meant.

My "behaving like an ass" is your own feelings about the point I was making.

It is rather important to point out that "free" is not correct if for no other reason than people do not get deluded into believing that there is no cost to it. There is indirect or not. Bottom line is that your "free healthcare" is being paid for through your taxes (money from your pocket). So, unless you pay no taxes, you do pay for it.

Again, I am not opposed to this approach (universal) to health care. But I know it will cost something. It might cost more or might be less. Don't know that for sure.
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post #67 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
"Wherefore" means "why."

Thanks mid.
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post #68 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Thanks mid.

NP. It's a pretty common mistake thanks to Romeo and Juliet. See, when she says "wherefore art thou Romeo" she's not asking where he is; she's asking why it had to be him she fell in love with, why he had to be from that family.

Quote:
O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Capulet.

And to get back on track:

1) Universal health care
2) Rebuilding public schools
3) Establishment of 5 national universities, one in each region of the country and each devoted to specific areas (sciences, arts, etc) that would be free and staffed with the rock stars of academia, who would also be paid like it
4) All Democrats are to join the NRA and take it over
5) 40 acres and a mule
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post #69 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Actually, I did know what you meant. My "behaving like an ass" is your own feelings about the point I was making. It is rather important to point out that "free" is not correct.

Hello mcfly, we all know services are paid for in some way. It's a digression and no real point at all. However "universal/free healthcare" exists and works.
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post #70 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:36pm
And implementing it would benefit you I think.
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post #71 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Hello mcfly,

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. No nee to get snotty though.

Quote:
Originally posted by New
we all know services are paid for in some way.

Actually, I think this is quite untrue. I think many people believe that if they don't have a write a check for it, hand over some cash or slap down their credit card that things are free. In brief, I think very many people believe that anything that the government provides is free. So while you might not think this, many do.

In either case, is a mis-use of the word.

Quote:
Originally posted by New
It's a digression and no real point at all.

No. You are wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by New
However "universal healthcare" exists and works.

Didn't dispute this.
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post #72 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:40pm
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Didn't dispute this.

So you hijacked my whole thread, filling it with loads of junk, over a terminology dispute? *free* healthcare instead of *universal* healthcare.

I curse you with the pox.
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post #73 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
And implementing it would benefit you I think.

Perhaps.

In what way do you think it would benefit me?

P.S. I think it might also. Like I said, I am favorably disposed to the idea of universal health care.
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post #74 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
So you hijacked my whole thread, filling it with loads of junk, over a terminology dispute? *free* healthcare instead of *universal* healthcare.

There is a huge difference. And if someone wants to make it part of their campaign platform they ought to know this.

Oh it's just terminology. It's just words.

Same goes for "free" public schools. The "free" universities suggested by another. Etc.
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post #75 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:50pm
oh brother... everybody knows this chris.

I have to go now, Need to make a call with my "universal" cell-phone.
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post #76 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
oh brother... everybody knows this chris.

I have to go now, Need to make a call with my "universal" cell-phone.

Me, too. I need to go drive down the "free" road, which is of course protected from terrorists by the "free" national defense.
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post #77 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by New
oh brother... everybody knows this chris.

I believe you are quite wrong (as already stated above).

Quote:
Originally posted by New
I have to go now, Need to make a call with my "universal" cell-phone.

Mixing in poor examples fails to make your case.
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post #78 of 120
8/14/05 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Me, too. I need to go drive down the "free" road, which is of course protected from terrorists by the "free" national defense.

Right, and if people were running around saying stuff like that you might have a point. But, well, they don't and therefore you don't.
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post #79 of 120
8/14/05 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Right, and if people were running around saying stuff like that you might have a point. But, well, they don't and therefore you don't.

Actually, I think this is quite untrue. I think many people believe that if they don't have a write a check for it, hand over some cash or slap down their credit card that things are free. In brief, I think very many people believe that anything that the government provides is free. So while you might not think this, many do.
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post #80 of 120
8/14/05 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Actually, I think this is quite untrue. I think many people believe that if they don't have a write a check for it, hand over some cash or slap down their credit card that things are free. In brief, I think very many people believe that anything that the government provides is free. So while you might not think this, many do.

Fair enough...but next time actually quote me so is more clear that those are my words.

Then we all agree we can stop mis-using the term.
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