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What is Russia doing?

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...2515-2218r.htm

Quote:
A joint Chinese and Russian military exercise set to begin tomorrow is meant as a political signal to the United States, in addition to helping Moscow showcase its weapons for sale to China, U.S. defense and intelligence officials said yesterday.

"For the Chinese and the Russians, this is a message to the United States," one U.S. official said. "They want to see our bases in Central Asia and presence in Asia cut back."

The eight days of exercises have been dubbed Peace Mission 2005 and will involve about 10,000 Russian and Chinese troops who will fight "terrorists" in a simulated regional conflict.

Because China defines terrorism as including "separatists," U.S. intelligence officials think the exercises are directed at Taiwan, which Beijing views as a breakaway province, and the United States, which has vowed to protect Taiwan from mainland attack.

What is Russia's interest in helping China take back Taiwan?

It seems they are moving steadily back to their old way of doing things.
post #2 of 51
Oh, you just noticed? Heard about Chechenya?
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post #3 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Oh, you just noticed? Heard about Chechenya?

I did. But I didn't take much notice, at the time.
post #4 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I did. But I didn't take much notice, at the time.

No matter - you can still claim to be as 'informed' as you ever are. Even more maybe.

Re question 'What is Russia doing?' I would say the answer is 'waking up to the fact that the US is a rabid dog running wild and taking appropriate measures to protect themselves against the madmen'.

Good luck to them. They'll need it - it will be years before the US sickness is cured. Hopefully they won't suffer the same slaughter of populations pencilled in for Syria and Iran and so gleefully looked forward to by the sicko fanboys cheering from the sidelines.
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post #5 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No matter - you can still claim to be as 'informed' as you ever are. Even more maybe.

Re question 'What is Russia doing?' I would say the answer is 'waking up to the fact that the US is a rabid dog running wild and taking appropriate measures to protect themselves against the madmen'.

Good luck to them. They'll need it - it will be years before the US sickness is cured. Hopefully they won't suffer the same slaughter of populations pencilled in for Syria and Iran and so gleefully looked forward to by the sicko fanboys cheering from the sidelines.

You have proven that you are too wrapped up in name calling and finger pointing that it is unproductive to carry on a conversation with you anymore.

You will undoubtedly take pride in the results of your dishonest approach to debate and conversation, but I'm afraid you rank right down there with Giant on my "Respect and Take Seriously" list.

Another 'enlightened progressive" that can't control their childish urges to call names and disparage.

Let the adults carry on a conversation now, OK?
post #6 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You have proven that you are too wrapped up in name calling and finger pointing that it is unproductive to carry on a conversation with you anymore.

You will undoubtedly take pride in the results of your dishonest approach to debate and conversation, but I'm afraid you rank right down there with Giant on my "Respect and Take Seriously" list.

Another 'enlightened progressive" that can't control their childish urges to call names and disparage.

Let the adults carry on a conversation now, OK?

Fine by me - most excellent!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
name calling

He didn't call you a name
Quote:
finger pointing

and you are misusing the term.

As far as russia goes, the reasons are right there in the quote.
post #8 of 51
Naples,
Two regional superpowers are doing a joint exercise. Somewhat like when the UK, the US and others do ... joint exercises. It seems to me youre sucking your teeth at the mere thought that two powerful countries should do a military exercise. Its only aggressive when they do it.

The fact that its got geopolitical implications is undoubtedly true -- you think that the US does not consider the projection of its power as part of the point of its activities, maybe?

But segovius has a point: you are unshakeably unable to see that the rest of the planet increasingly sees the US a dangerous, violent force that speaks endlessly about how peaceful it is while causing the death of hundreds of thousands of people in the cause of its own influence and interests.

This is just true; its a fact, and its not name-calling or juvenile.
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post #9 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No matter - you can still claim to be as 'informed' as you ever are. Even more maybe.

Re question 'What is Russia doing?' I would say the answer is 'waking up to the fact that the US is a rabid dog running wild and taking appropriate measures to protect themselves against the madmen'.

Good luck to them. They'll need it - it will be years before the US sickness is cured. Hopefully they won't suffer the same slaughter of populations pencilled in for Syria and Iran and so gleefully looked forward to by the sicko fanboys cheering from the sidelines.

Actually I think you are both wrong, and a bit right. Russia is what Russia always has been, a close to autocratic empire, ruled by terror, economic force and intrigues behind the curtains. After a brief period of openness and democratic exercises after the fall of the soviet union. Russia now seems to settle into the old habit of centralized power, economic hardship for the common people and incredible waste of resources.

But; We in Europe and the US have not lived up to our tasks of opening our door for Russia, so we sould not be surprised by how things are turning out.

Concening China, it's probably quite smart of them to capitalize on Russias assets.
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post #10 of 51
With all the stuff Bush has done the past 5 years is it any wonder? Its almost like the Republican is starting another arms race with anyone he can. I agree that Russia is right back to its old ways and wouldnt be surprised to see less democracy coming in that country. Bush has F up'd things in so many ways, it will take years to undo a lot of it. His space base weapons is another boondoggle just as his billion dollar missile defense that cant work. Sure its great for the MegaCorporations but we the people are getting screwed,over and over. Where is the Saudi Bin Laden?
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post #11 of 51
I think that all three of you are wrong.

Russia is the wild west of capitalism. Very little of this is military strategy, diplomacy or government intrigue. They are just wild criminals/business men trying to sell weapons - each businessmans main worry is staying alive long enough to get a bunch of money.

Sell stuff, get money, sell more stuff, get more money.

They could care less about the US imperialsm, because they don't think that anyone will ever try to invade them, and they don't care to invade anyone else. Unless they are selling stuff to you, the Russian people don't really care about the world outside Russia.
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post #12 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
and they don't care to invade anyone else.

Uh, ever heard of Chechnya?
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post #13 of 51
Oh, Russia is not to happy about american bases in central Asia, and China have some ambitions there as well. As their need for oil and gas is ever increasing.
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post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Naples,
Two regional superpowers are doing a joint exercise. Somewhat like when the UK, the US and others do ... joint exercises. It seems to me youre sucking your teeth at the mere thought that two powerful countries should do a military exercise. Its only aggressive when they do it.

The fact that its got geopolitical implications is undoubtedly true -- you think that the US does not consider the projection of its power as part of the point of its activities, maybe?

But segovius has a point: you are unshakeably unable to see that the rest of the planet increasingly sees the US a dangerous, violent force that speaks endlessly about how peaceful it is while causing the death of hundreds of thousands of people in the cause of its own influence and interests.

This is just true; its a fact, and its not name-calling or juvenile.

Harald you make a valid point here and maybe one day the red state conservatives in this country will wake up and smell their own body odor.

Fellows
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post #15 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Uh, ever heard of Chechnya?

Inside Russian federation, and valuble due to oil and pipeline routes.
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post #16 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Uh, ever heard of Chechnya?

Russia has always considered it part of russia. Well since the 18th century anyway.
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post #17 of 51
When I was in Russia for adoption, I told the court that one of the reasons that I wanted to adopt rather than have a natural birth was global overpopulation.

They laughed at me, all the court including the lawyers and even the judge were not aware of global overpopulation problems and thought that I was joking. They have a declining population in Russia, and that is all they know or care about.

Also, in Russia you have to spend all your time worrying about the other Russians, foreign concerns are too distant. The biggest worry of a typical moscow resident is damage to the car of a rich person - you will have to spend the rest of your life paying for even a scratch, so the rich people cut you off with impunity in their purple Mercedes G500 SUVs.
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post #18 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Inside Russian federation, and valuble due to oil and pipeline routes.

Russia considers it to be inside the Russian Federation: Chechens, however, have a different point of view.

And just because it may be inside their federation, does not mean that they should bomb the shit out of it.

But look at Poland 1968, or Afghanistan, recently.. it's not that hard, really, to realize that Russia too, is a very aggresive country.
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post #19 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
When I was in Russia for adoption, I told the court that one of the reasons that I wanted to adopt rather than have a natural birth was global overpopulation.

They laughed at me, all the court including the lawyers and even the judge were not aware of global overpopulation problems and thought that I was joking. They have a declining population in Russia, and that is all they know or care about.

Also, in Russia you have to spend all your time worrying about the other Russians, foreign concerns are too distant. The biggest worry of a typical moscow resident is damage to the car of a rich person - you will have to spend the rest of your life paying for even a scratch, so the rich people cut you off with impunity in their purple Mercedes G500 SUVs.

Sure, but the rulers always have ambitions.
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post #20 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Sure, but the rulers always have ambitions.

But they are part of the culture, and they have the same goals as the people. Russia really has no security problems, almost all goals are economic.
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post #21 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
But they are part of the culture, and they have the same goals as the people. Russia really has no security problems, almost all goals are economic.

What on earth has led you to beleive that rulers have the same goals as their subjects?

Especially in a totalitarian state like Russia? The goal of the ruling elite in Russia has cosistently been to bleed part of the population dry.

If we were talking about Sweden, then you might have be partially right.
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post #22 of 51
The problem with Russia, or more correctly, with its population, is that they are so used to bad government, lousy living conditions, and generally bad treatment from the government and the 'elite', that they have settled for the current situation as long as it doesn't get any worse.

Media censorship is continuing, there's a big oligarchy that controls the country, economic activity is growing but not enough to supply people with decent jobs, but one can argue, when was Russia any better off? And that's exactly what people in Russia are telling others: Putin is bad, but as long as the situation remains the same, he's okay in his position..

I guess it's more of a psychological thing: fear of chaos, anarchy, and generally deteriorating stability that they chose to stay the way they were: supressed, but able to live relatively OK.
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post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Putin is bad, but as long as the situation remains the same, he's okay in his position..

The Russians love Putin, and he is slowly making the country better and better. It was Yeltsin the alchoholic bastard that wrecked the country.

Putin has the same goal as the common Russians, bring wealth to the country.
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post #24 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
[B]The Russians love Putin, and he is slowly making the country better and better.

See, I didn't say that Russians dislike Putin. Just that he's bad in terms of the way he treats his political enemies (re: the imprisonment of the oil guy). He is by no means a democratic President; autocratic would fit better with his attitude.

But what else do you expect from a KGB-spy-and-ex-karate-kid-turned-President anyway? He's simply ruling like all Russian Presidents and Party Secretaries and Car's ruled in the past: with an iron fist (with the exception of Gorbachev).


Quote:
It was Yeltsin the alchoholic bastard that wrecked the country.

It's very hard to say that Yeltsin wrecked Russia when one bears in mind the fact that Russia was wrecked already; it came out as a pariah of the East, and but a shadow of what it was.

But by all means, he was a drunken bastard.


Quote:
Putin has the same goal as the common Russians, bring wealth to the country.

A little rephrasing:

Quote:
Putin has the same goal as the common Russian elite, bring wealth to himself and his protégés.

would make your statement a little closer to reality.
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post #25 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The Russians love Putin, and he is slowly making the country better and better. It was Yeltsin the alchoholic bastard that wrecked the country.

Putin has the same goal as the common Russians, bring wealth to the country.

Tsar Boris had many flaws, but he resisted to a "coup d'etat". You can't resume him to an alcoholic

He put Putin in power, to save his backs. Putin is a more serious guy, but it's a KGB child, an clever one, but he carry the old commie russia heritage.
I truly expect, he made the countrie better and better, but he is not the angel of democratia. I am not sure, that democracia is the priority in russia, struggling against the mafia is more important, but my feeling is that the russian governement deal with mafia, more than he really struggle it.

Boris Eltsine dispite his many flaws do not wrecked the country. For me the mafia, and all many others problems occuring in russia, are the consequences of the end of communism. Communism brought a special culture in russia : people officialy worked for collectivsim, but in fact secretly tried to gain the more advantages they could.
This culture was not the good one, for the transition to capitalism. The result is a mix of a central autocratic governement, with a wild economy ruled by many leaders without much great moral standarts.
post #26 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Just that he's bad in terms of the way he treats his political enemies (re: the imprisonment of the oil guy).

It was expressed over and over to me while I was there, Yeltsin was drunk all the time, and his family and friends manipulated him into giving away all the government companies to personal contacts.

The common people love it when Putin steps on the oligarchs (who are those same family and friends of Yeltsin) - and I don't really see Putin and company getting a lot of wealth out of this. If anything, the wealthy and Putin are water and oil. People are allowed to get wealthy, as long as they stay within bounds.
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post #27 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
[B]It was expressed over and over to me while I was there, Yeltsin was drunk all the time, and his family and friends manipulated him into giving away all the government companies to personal contacts.

It depends on the crowd you've been hanging with. Perhaps they had some personal interest in keeping Putin in power, so Yeltsin, was, of course, a drunken bastard to them? You never know.

Quote:
The common people love it when Putin steps on the oligarchs (who are those same family and friends of Yeltsin) - and I don't really see Putin and company getting a lot of wealth out of this. If anything, the wealthy and Putin are water and oil. People are allowed to get wealthy, as long as they stay within bounds.

Except that he did get wealth - the oil company belonging to the said oligarch (a political oponent of Putin in reality, together with ex-world chess champion Kasparov) was completely and totally seized by the government (that Putin leads) and parts of it were sold for big bucks (billions of dollars).

What do you make of that? Did it for philantropic reasons? No, my friend, that money went into their pockets, and the pockets of the judges that executed this political theatre in Russian courts, and of course, to other oligarch who are smart enough to align themselves with Putin.
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post #28 of 51
What is Russia doing?

According to the BBC, very different stuff what the Washington "Flexing your military muscles is an aggressive act ooo hoooo ooooo oooo" article says.

Particularly, the Russians have no interest in getting drawn into a squabble about Taiwan.

Of course, some will read this as liberal propaganda from the BBC, which hates America because it tries to report what's happening and what people who aren't Scott McLellan think about situations.

They will also see the line about how that the exercises "underscore a common view of the desirability of a multipolar world in which there's some counterweight to US power" as juvenile and communist, even though this common view is perfectly genuine.

But then, some people have had their head twisted so far that there's only possible perspective, and are no longer able to think for themselves. The rest of the world thinks this and is increasingly frightened by it, but it's not being articulated in mainstream media yet.
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post #29 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
It depends on the crowd you've been hanging with. Perhaps they had some personal interest in keeping Putin in power, so Yeltsin, was, of course, a drunken bastard to them? You never know.

Except that he did get wealth - the oil company belonging to the said oligarch (a political oponent of Putin in reality, together with ex-world chess champion Kasparov) was completely and totally seized by the government (that Putin leads) and parts of it were sold for big bucks (billions of dollars).

What do you make of that? Did it for philantropic reasons? No, my friend, that money went into their pockets, and the pockets of the judges that executed this political theatre in Russian courts, and of course, to other oligarch who are smart enough to align themselves with Putin.

The people that I was "hanging out with" were bodyguards, drivers and translators. Not really the ruling elete back then or now either.

Putin seising an oil company and selling it (for back taxes) is a normal government action. The money went back to the government - not to Putin. Do you also think that Bush profits personally from every IRS seasure? What you are saying makes no sense. You are accusing somebody with corruption with no evidence.
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post #30 of 51
This is nothing special, in fact the US and China have played war games before heck I was on a DDG that played missile defense games with a Russian Frigate. This type of thing is not unusual, no conspiracy here.
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post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX

It seems they are moving steadily back to their old way of doing things.

From what I've read, I thought Putin was moving back to the old ways. Besides, we(USA) do the same thing. Wasn't it last year when we sent a Naval fleet towards N. Korea to keep an eye on their nuclear capibilities. It's all a game.
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
[B]The people that I was "hanging out with" were bodyguards, drivers and translators. Not really the ruling elete back then or now either.

They don't have to be friends with Putin - they just need to have 'a good time' under his watch.


Quote:
Putin seising an oil company and selling it (for back taxes) is a normal government action.

No it's not a normal government action, and it was not sold for back taxes. You don't just go around seizing companies - especially if they belong to your political opponents. It's like Bush seizing Heinz Ketchup.. or something. And then selling Heinz Ketchup for billions of dollars all the while pretending it's for 'taxes purposes'.


Quote:
The money went back to the government - not to Putin.

Officially, anyway.


Quote:
Do you also think that Bush profits personally from every IRS seasure? What you are saying makes no sense. You are accusing somebody with corruption with no evidence.

You equating the American justice system with the Russian justice system? The judges can be corrupt too, you know.
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post #33 of 51
For better reference on what's going on in Russia, let's read this Times article, shall we?

Quote:
The Russian Government's move effectively to re-nationalise oil giant Yukos was today described as the "fraud of the year" - by a member of President Vladimir Putin's own inner Kremlin cabinet.

The remarks by economic adviser Andrei Illarionov could cause an icily Siberian blast to blow through the Kremlin.

Mr Illarionov made his speech on the same day that Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Russias richest man until his arrest on fraud and tax evasion charges last year, accused the Kremlin of stealing his Yukos oil empire by manipulating the law.

Mr Illarionov blasted "the state's incompetent interference in the economy".

"There are no rules," Mr Illarionov said, adding that Russia had decided to join the Third World.


Of the Yukos sale, he said, "We used to see street hustlers do this kind of thing. Now officials are doing it.
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post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
They don't have to be friends with Putin - they just need to have 'a good time' under his watch.

In any case, the more Putin steps on the oligarchs, the more votes he will get, because regular russians see the billionaires' fortunes as stolen.
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post #35 of 51
And the more popular Putin gets, the further Russia will move away from democracy.
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post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You have proven that you are too wrapped up in name calling and finger pointing that it is unproductive to carry on a conversation with you anymore.

You will undoubtedly take pride in the results of your dishonest approach to debate and conversation, but I'm afraid you rank right down there with Giant on my "Respect and Take Seriously" list.

Another 'enlightened progressive" that can't control their childish urges to call names and disparage.

Let the adults carry on a conversation now, OK?


He's right Nappy! The fact that the U.S. is conducting itself in this " justfy the attack with any reason " instead of real ones is undermining our image in the international community. So they are acting appropriately.

I suppose this is a surprise to you? Well we have been saying all along that we have to get along with these other countries. We aren't the only presence in the world and we can't possibly take them all on. We must learn to respect these other countries and work with them. Not defy them and do what ever we want. If we don't then we become the bad guy. Get it?

We are all on the same planet after all.

Also I'm sure you haven't seen the worst of the after effects of Bush's blunders yet.
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post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
I suppose this is a surprise to you? Well we have been saying all along that we have to get along with these other countries. We aren't the only presence in the world and we can't possibly take them all on. We must learn to respect these other countries and work with them. Not defy them and do what ever we want. If we don't then we become the bad guy. Get it?

That's all great "warm and fuzzy" talk, but most of the countries that you are presumably talk about didn't want to get along with the US prior to all of this.
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
That's all great "warm and fuzzy" talk, but most of the countries that you are presumably talk about didn't want to get along with the US prior to all of this.


They were getting along better than they are now.


By your own admission.


Gotcha.
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post #39 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
They were getting along better than they are now.


By your own admission.


Gotcha.

?
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
?

When backed into a corner simply reply : " I don't understand ".

Thanks for confirming my ideas.
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