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Apple orders Mac sites to remove OS X on x86 videos

post #1 of 188
Thread Starter 
Apple's legal department this week sent "aggressive" emails to several web sites that support and advocate its products solely because they linked to videos showing a hacked version of the company's Mac OS X operating system running on off-the-shelf PC hardware.

French language Mac news site MacBidouille was one of the first web sites to receive an "amazingly aggressive email asking for the immediate removal of all links to the videos," the site reported on Wednesday.

In an editorial, the site's publishers said that they immediately complied with Apple's requests, but added: "we deeply think that it will not change anything."

The site, along with others, had used the videos to support news reports that hackers had successfully circumvented Apple's Trusted Platform Module (TPM), which was designed to prevent versions of Mac OS X for Intel from running on non-Apple certified systems.

By issuing e-mail-based cease and desist orders, Apple is effectively validating the the claims made by the news sites, as well as the work of the hackers in conquering the TMP scheme.

At Apple's World Wide Developers Conference in June, the company announced a switch to the Intel processors and began providing developers with a version of Mac OS X capable of running on proprietary Apple developer test systems that are based on the Intel architecture.

Copies of the operating system soon leaked to Internet file sharing sites and BitTorrent trackers. Following the unauthorized widespread distribution, it took only about a month and a half for hackers to successfully crack Apple's TPM scheme and allow the version of Mac OS X to boot on virtually any Intel-based PC.
post #2 of 188
I think the finished product will be like iTunes. Every time you run software update it will re-patch the OS to make sure it is running on the correct hardware and cause owners of illegal copies endless problems to keep it working. Apart from a few hackers I can't see this being a big issue.
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post #3 of 188
Apple are perfectly, 100% within their right to do what they are doing.
post #4 of 188
I can't see how this is unexpected. These are some very resourceful people, and it comes as no surprise that they are able to circumnavigate Apple's scheme to prevent OSX being installed on "off the shelf" PCs.

Rather than prevent this from happening, which is inevitable, Apple should simply create a version of OSX for PC and sell it. They would at least make money that way. They aren't going to make anything from the cracked copies that will be circulating on LimeWire.
post #5 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by JamesG
I can't see how this is unexpected. These are some very resourceful people, and it comes as no surprise that they are able to circumnavigate Apple's scheme to prevent OSX being installed on "off the shelf" PCs.

Rather than prevent this from happening, which is inevitable, Apple should simply create a version of OSX for PC and sell it. They would at least make money that way. They aren't going to make anything from the cracked copies that will be circulating on LimeWire.

You have any idea what a huge and expensive support issue that would become? There's no way they'd be able to make money with people phoning in because their copy of OS X is having trouble on some custom-built hardware.

Apple wants to sell hardware, plain and simple. OS X is the software that powers that hardware.
post #6 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Robin Hood
Apple are perfectly, 100% within their right to do what they are doing.

i don't think anyone is contesting that.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #7 of 188
If apple started selling a boxed OS X for x86, their OS advantage would be gone. it works because they can test ALL the drivers and make sure they are almost perfect. With the myriad of cheapo PC parts out there, OSX would become just as unstable as Windows.

Not to mention it would butcher their hardware sales, which is where apple makes their money.
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If this is your first night at fight club... you have to fight.
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post #8 of 188
Woah - can we please get an ombudsman in here? This has to be one of the most sensational articles I've ever seen on AppleInsider (don't let my post count or join date fool you - I've been lurking for around a year). I realize that those running AI may sympathize with other Apple forum owners, but can we be a little less biased please? True, nothing in the post is actually incorrect, but the way in which it is worded is just so slanted it's sad.

Let's not let this site deteriorate.
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post #9 of 188
Quote:
Woah - can we please get an ombudsman in here? This has to be one of the most sensational articles I've ever seen on AppleInsider (don't let my post count or join date fool you - I've been lurking for around a year). I realize that those running AI may sympathize with other Apple forum owners, but can we be a little less biased please? True, nothing in the post is actually incorrect, but the way in which it is worded is just so slanted it's sad.

I think you're seeing things - just what part of the AI story do you take exception to. "... "aggressive" e-mails. " ?..

It is in the forum that we are allowed to be biased..No?. My two cents, this is just classic.... Wait a week for the publicity, and then smack and bully the fan-boy mags - who lets face it can be easily scared...
Rather like the behaviour we have seen before. .. Try to sue small sites for Mac mini - leaks. But let large Internation magazines (I forgot which one) get away with leaking the Intel switch....

I doubt there is anything legally wrong with linking to a video for ch$£%'s (iSteve's) sake.
post #10 of 188
Maybe Intel will be the one testing to make sure that OS X works with all standard intel chip sets. All they would have to do is test the already free and open source darwin.
post #11 of 188
What good is a viral marketing campaign if you can't indirectly stir up publicity every once in awhile. The hacks needed to run this are delicate enough that hardcore knowledgeable power users aren't going to want to mess with them, let alone mom, pop and grandma.

Apple isn't worried about the hacks directly, but they must appear to be doing something to maintain their legal trademarks, secrets and patents etc. All the better if you can prime the media pump at the same time while appearing not to be too much of the big bad corporation.
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post #12 of 188
It seems that Apple is playing stupid... again!

Back on January 24th 1984 Apple made the mistake not to license the Mac. Then M$ took over just because of such mistake.

Now history repeats with Mac OS X for PC...

Apple, get this clear: either license Mac OS X for PC or the Mac will be history in a few years. Remember that Windows copies and becomes more Mac-like with every release. As Linux does as well.

And remember that when Linux becomes more user-friendly in 5 to 10 years, it will take over any other commercial OS.

So, the sooner the better if Apple would:

1 - License Mac OS X for PC. Start with Dell and HP, for instance.
2 - Fully open Mac OS X, including the Aqua GUI. Full open source as Linux.
3 - Give Mac OS X for free. As Linux.

Then both Linux and Windows would be history in 2-3 years! Or else Windows first and Linux then will take over. Well, probably M$ would give Windows for free to prevent it, as it did with Internet Explorer to kill Netscape.

It all depends on Apple now...
post #13 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by zunx

3 - Give Mac OS X for free. As Linux.



I suppose you think Chrysler should give you free gas to drive a Ford too.
post #14 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by zunx
Now history repeats with Mac OS X for PC...

If you sit down and make a list of the things that are fundamentally DIFFERENT now vs. the situation in 1984... you'll end up with a very long list 1984 should NOT be Apple's strategy guide for today. (And I think Apple made the right choice in 1984 anyway. Daring Fireball had a good editorial on that subject.)
post #15 of 188
I just think it is strange that Apple just wants all of the hacking done underground. Why not let everyone show off what they can do - then, when you do a final release you can plug all of the holes that the websites have shown you.

This would only affect a small portion of the buying population anyway.

The only reason I can think would be to stop the perception that OSX works on non-Apple products right from the start, but who other than use even worry about this?!?!?
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post #16 of 188
Apple is just going to have to get used to this, because as long as they're on the Intel platform there will be someone out there able to hack the Mac OS to run on non-Apple hardware.

Good time to be an Apple lawyer though. The future's so bright, they've gotta wear shades.
post #17 of 188
One thing that has to be understood. Is that Apple does not want to be Microsoft, Dell, or HP.

The cause of Apple's problems from 80's to the 90's was its own inner turmoil, that was not really directly related to Microsoft.

If it has not been noticed the way Microsoft, Dell, and HP operate their businesses are not 100% perfect. They all have become so large the weaknesses of their business models are showing.

As for licensing the OS wide and far. That business model works better when you don't dominate the market, and when there are fewer OEM's to support.

But when you have tens of thousands of configurations to support, it becomes an entirely different prospect. It is impossible to support all of the various configurations with no stability problems.

Apple has a different philosophy to the computer experience. The advantage of this philosophy is tight integration of software and hardware. That is the point of owning of Macintosh.

If you want an open OS that can run on generic parts, that is the point of owning Windows. The MS philosophy of computing is no more or no less valid than Apple's. It is just a different approach.


From what I've been reading the TPM on the OSx86 developers box was not very strong security. It is suspected Apple should have known this. And that Apple more than likely is not very surprised it was broken.

Its only speculation of what Apple's plans may be. It is likely Apple knew this would happen because the developers version of Tiger cannot receive any future OS updates, and this situation is rather harmless.

Apple may have been testing the TPM for weaknesses. It's possible Apple never intended to use the TPM in the final Macintel configuration. And may use something entirely different.

It is likely the final version of OSx86 will not run on P4, as Intel will introduce new chips next year. Even though Intel publicly introduces its roadmap, we really have no idea what Intel and Apple may be doing in the background. I mean can you really see a PowerBook going from a G4 to Centrino chips?

It's possible Apple feels OSx86 runs faster in comparison to XP on a P4. Apple knew the TPM would be broken by hackers, and really did give Windows geeks a taste of what was coming to the x86 platform.
post #18 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Apparatus
Apple is just going to have to get used to this, because as long as they're on the Intel platform there will be someone out there able to hack the Mac OS to run on non-Apple hardware.

I agree, but I also don't think it will be a huge problem. At least not particularly more egregious than, say, having the iTunes DRM cracked. The people who crack the code to run Mac OS X on PCs are likely not the same people who would walk into an Apple Store and buy a Mac anyway. It gives me an uneasy feeling thinking of OS X running on a crickety whitebox PC, but I guess that's what we may have to get used to.
post #19 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
One thing that has to be understood. Is that Apple does not want to be Microsoft, Dell, or HP.

The cause of Apple's problems from 80's to the 90's was its own inner turmoil, that was not really directly related to Microsoft.

If it has not been noticed the way Microsoft, Dell, and HP operate their businesses are not 100% perfect. They all have become so large the weaknesses of their business models are showing.

As for licensing the OS wide and far. That business model works better when you don't dominate the market, and when there are fewer OEM's to support.

But when you have tens of thousands of configurations to support, it becomes an entirely different prospect. It is impossible to support all of the various configurations with no stability problems.

Apple has a different philosophy to the computer experience. The advantage of this philosophy is tight integration of software and hardware. That is the point of owning of Macintosh.

If you want an open OS that can run on generic parts, that is the point of owning Windows. The MS philosophy of computing is no more or no less valid than Apple's. It is just a different approach.


From what I've been reading the TPM on the OSx86 developers box was not very strong security. It is suspected Apple should have known this. And that Apple more than likely is not very surprised it was broken.

Its only speculation of what Apple's plans may be. It is likely Apple knew this would happen because the developers version of Tiger cannot receive any future OS updates, and this situation is rather harmless.

Apple may have been testing the TPM for weaknesses. It's possible Apple never intended to use the TPM in the final Macintel configuration. And may use something entirely different.

It is likely the final version of OSx86 will not run on P4, as Intel will introduce new chips next year. Even though Intel publicly introduces its roadmap, we really have no idea what Intel and Apple may be doing in the background. I mean can you really see a PowerBook going from a G4 to Centrino chips?

It's possible Apple feels OSx86 runs faster in comparison to XP on a P4. Apple knew the TPM would be broken by hackers, and really did give Windows geeks a taste of what was coming to the x86 platform.

I agree completely! I think we're actually going to see a whole new line of Intel built, Mac proprietary chips. It makes more sense than anything else.
post #20 of 188
Out of the 10 reasons why you should switch to apple the Number 1 reason on there website is

Only with a Mac do you get a system built by the same people who make the operating system, applications and the computer itself.

i dont think they want to mess that up with having any old dell run OS X

http://www.apple.com/switch/
post #21 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
But when you have tens of thousands of configurations to support, it becomes an entirely different prospect. It is impossible to support all of the various configurations with no stability problems.

The people hacking into OSX aren't concerned about stability problems. It stands to reason that the majority of people running OSX on "unintended" hardware will not have showstopping problems. What Apple does and does not do here is sort of irrelevant, actually. Just like the iTunes DRM has been broken, just like the TPM is now broken, whatever software/hardware scheme they use will ultimately be broken. It all boils down to whether Apple will be in a position to take advantage of the upcoming demand for OSX on non-Apple boxes.

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons that people buy Windows boxes instead of Mac is cost and/or *perceived* cost.

Quote:
It is likely the final version of OSx86 will not run on P4, as Intel will introduce new chips next year.

I seriously wonder about this statement. Will the new chips have a completely incompatible instruction set? If there's just a software check that looks for the CPU type, once again that can be bypassed by the "hackers".
post #22 of 188
Regarding the problem of supporting thousands of drivers 'a la Windows....

1. Apple won't really have to do that for awhile because as others have said, only geeks are going to hack the systems to work on Dell and AlienWare boxes.

2. The problem comes two years down the road when someone wants to add a cheap second harddrive or upgrade a videocard that they bought on eBay. Then driver hell happens. This means Apple will probably make their boxes at least as difficult to upgrade as they do now. This means a tendency in two directions: more Mac Mini types of boxes that need "qualified" techs and uberpriced PowerMacs that can only be bought by pros who know what to do or have IT staff to do the upgrades.

I see the prosumer as the one getting pinched ... kinda like the middle class in America now.
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post #23 of 188
Quote:
The people hacking into OSX aren't concerned about stability problems.

No the people hacking into OS X are not concerned about stability problems, and may be fine with figuring out, and writing code to get around problems.

The whole purpose of the Macintosh platform is so you don't have to do any of this.

If one likes to dig into the code of their OS, that's what Linux is for.

Yes the hacker community will get around whatever Apple uses. But what's the point if its not usable for the average joe and jane.

Quote:
Will the new chips have a completely incompatible instruction set? If there's just a software check that looks for the CPU type...

At this point only Apple and Intel know for sure.

Jobs is a master at the art of slight of hand.

While the hacker community is busy taking apart the TPM, the actual Macintel will run in a totally different way.

While everyone looks at the Pentium D, Yonah, Merom and try and guess which one Apple will use.

Apple and Intel may release an entirely different chip set.
post #24 of 188
Quote:
This means Apple will probably make their boxes at least as difficult to upgrade as they do now. This means a tendency in two directions: more Mac Mini types of boxes that need "qualified" techs and uberpriced PowerMacs that can only be bought by pros who know what to do or have IT staff to do the upgrades.

I see the prosumer as the one getting pinched ...

On the flip side of that is a difference between Mac and PC users. Mac users are used to computer longevity. The initial cost of the computer is off set by the life of its productivity.

I know people right now who are using 1999 iMac's running OS X Panther. The iMac's generally still have all of their original hardware. Their ports are compatible with all of the current peripherals (printers, scanners, digital cameras, DVD burners, PDA's.)

Computer longevity is something not as widely shared in the PC world.
post #25 of 188
Completely agree with Crazy Wingman ... the writing here is not objective; it seeks to influence rather than inform. Someone asked for detail so here's a key quote:

"By issuing e-mail-based cease and desist orders, Apple is effectively validating the the claims made by the news sites, as well as the work of the hackers in conquering the TMP scheme. "

No trained journalist would write such nonsense. The hackers did not conquer anything ... they hacked something that did not belong to them, on an advance developer build that clearly flags such behavior as illegal and unlicensed, and then publicised their break-in. Apple Legal acting to protect their IP is absolutely not validating what these people did.
post #26 of 188
It's no big deal that some hackers are managing to get OS X to run on plain PC's. Certainly, Apple has to keep reminding the computer enthusiast community that it is illegal.

No institution is going to accept illegal, unsupported systems on its networks, nor are the vast majority of ordinary computer users going to possess unsupported Frankenstein boxes.

Any effort to make the DRM more than somewhat challenging will be wasted.
post #27 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Robin Hood
Apple are perfectly, 100% within their right to do what they are doing.

Yea... Do do know that when a group of 3 or more people of Italian decent do it they have a special name for Apples actions...

EXTORTION!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

Extortion is a criminal offense, which occurs when a person obtains money, behaviour, or other goods and/or services from another by wrongfully threatening or inflicting harm to his person, reputation, or property. Euphemistically, refraining from doing harm is sometimes called protection.

Apple-Legal: Hey I gotta offer you can't refuse.
Web Site: Uh... what would that be kind sirs?
Apple-Legal: We don't like you linking to those other web sites that have those videos
Web Site: Ah... err... but they aren't my web sites - I'm just linking to them...
Apple-Legal: Tomaytoes, Toemotoes ... Fact is WE DON'T LIKE IT AND YOU WILL STOP IT!!
Web Site: Oh, yea, sure... whatever you say Fat Tony I'll stop linking to those sites.

What a freakin joke!

Dave
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post #28 of 188
Interesting screenplay DaveGee but that's not what's happening here.

Apple offered members of their developer program advance access to a set of technologies that are important to the future product roadmap. It goes without saying that the intent was to facilitate those developers in ensuring a smooth transition to the new Intel-based HW/OS combination that would come to market starting in 2006.

One (maybe more) of those developers has breached the license that they signed up to and as a result, there's a video that essentially says "look at me ... I'm not very trustworthy but I am clever, and hey, future Mac OS X releases can be made to run on non-Apple hardware".

So Apple have no choice but to flag this as unacceptable and to try to stop the damage. If they didn't they would weaken their own recourse if they wish to bring the offending developer(s) to court. Just as with employee breach of confidentiality, they have to do so if they're to manage their own product roadmap and avoid promoting mis-information.
post #29 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by zunx
It seems that Apple is playing stupid... again!

You should have stopped at three.
post #30 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by BealBocht


No trained journalist would write such nonsense.

Not from around here, are you?

http://www.foxnews.com/
post #31 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by wilco
Not from around here, are you?

http://www.foxnews.com/

Too funny ... no, I'm Irish but spend enough time here to get your point.
post #32 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
If you want an open OS that can run on generic parts, that is the point of owning Windows.

Since when is Windows an open OS? I'll pretend you typed Linux.
post #33 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by CrazyWingman
Woah - can we please get an ombudsman in here? This has to be one of the most sensational articles I've ever seen on AppleInsider (don't let my post count or join date fool you - I've been lurking for around a year). I realize that those running AI may sympathize with other Apple forum owners, but can we be a little less biased please? True, nothing in the post is actually incorrect, but the way in which it is worded is just so slanted it's sad.

Let's not let this site deteriorate.

give me a break
post #34 of 188
It runs, and it runs good, let me tell you. Perfect stability.

The OS X on x86 Stronghold

Either Apple does it or other people do.
post #35 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by wilco
Not from around here, are you?

http://www.foxnews.com/

Hey, leave politics at the door. I love fox news. It's the other news agencies that are biased.

Ok, I'll take my own advice now and leave politics at the door.

Anyway, I doubt that this will become a huge issue. But either way it goes, I hope apple continues to squash these hackers like bugs, but only if they try to make a profit off of their hack or distribute their hack. Because I for one would think it'd be cool if I could get OS X to run on the Piece of Crap in my room that I'm forced to use for school.
post #36 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
Computer longevity is something not as widely shared in the PC world.

I've always doubted if that's true and am curious where the idea (myth?) originated. There must be tons of tired old PCs around, still running Windows 98 (and even lower). Many of my non-technical family and friends have hung on to their antique PCs for as long as they're still able to run the few apps they use and can get on the net. Unless something compels them to upgrade (most likely a significant hardware failure) they never will.

And the more technically inclined often find ways to squeeze as much longevity as possible out of old hardware. Until migrating to an nearly-all-Mac household a couple years ago I kept an old SPARC-5 alive for miscellaneous server-type functions and my wife was temporarily using an older SPARC just for web access.
post #37 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by mox358
If apple started selling a boxed OS X for x86, their OS advantage would be gone. it works because they can test ALL the drivers and make sure they are almost perfect. With the myriad of cheapo PC parts out there, OSX would become just as unstable as Windows.

Not to mention it would butcher their hardware sales, which is where apple makes their money.

What if Apple wrote the drivers for a few plain white chip sets? That way Dell and Apple could use the best the Intel had to offer, in whole chip set packages, and still Apple would not have to support everything PC, just what they would already for the Apple Macs. I think that because of the security issues with Windows, Apple should position itself ready to fill the void if Vista is cracked early. Lots of people will want access to the internet from a home PC and Apple is the next likely choice, but Apple cannot supply this market. This could be several times larger than what Apple is currently serving. The only logical thing to do is to license OSX on a very limited chip set. Then as when Apple has the time and money they could begin to take back control of that market. I know that people are looking for a solution to the virus issues of windows but they still want to play games and have a very easy to understand GUI. Apple fits that market and the MiniMac fits that market well, but Apple could go further, by opening up the gates and licensing the OS. For those that think that there is little money in software look at MS they have been down in the market forever but they still generate huge stock piles of cash every quarter. What if Apple charged $200 to $300 per copy of OSX? And say they only get 5% of what Dell is shipping because of pricing differences and the fact that OSX is just different. Now what if Apple also got 5% of HPs and Gateways customers. Add that up and you could see that Apple would make huge dollars on white boxes.
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post #38 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Brendon
What if Apple charged $200 to $300 per copy of OSX? And say they only get 5% of what Dell is shipping because of pricing differences and the fact that OSX is just different. Now what if Apple also got 5% of HPs and Gateways customers. Add that up and you could see that Apple would make huge dollars on white boxes.

You know one of the reasons why I'm a fan of Apple. I die hard crazy fan? It's because Apple isn't about simply making money. Don't take that the wrong way. They are definitely about trying to make money. But Steve's goal has always been to enhance the average joe schmo's computer using experience! Since 1984, Steve hasn't changed that much, I don't think. He'll never license Mac to PCs it will NEVER happen. And Apple as a company will be better for it. You can't enhance the user experience when your using junky Dell's.
post #39 of 188
What is the difference between these two?

A 1999 iMac running OS X Panther with present day OS X software. Connected to current peripherals through firewire and USB.

A 1999 Dell running Windows 98 with older Windows software. Connected to older peripherals using color coordinated parallel ports.


Which one would be considered as having the most productive longevity.
post #40 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by DeaPeaJay
You know one of the reasons why I'm a fan of Apple. I die hard crazy fan? It's because Apple isn't about simply making money. Don't take that the wrong way. They are definitely about trying to make money. But Steve's goal has always been to enhance the average joe schmo's computer using experience! Since 1984, Steve hasn't changed that much, I don't think. He'll never license Mac to PCs it will NEVER happen. And Apple as a company will be better for it. You can't enhance the user experience when your using junky Dell's.

I don't know what Steve is thinking. As far as junky, what I see is that if the chip set is very limited then so are the options for junky computers. Dell and the others have a vested interest in selling good products. Dell is not doing that bad of a job, as far as the box goes. What I feel is that there is beginning to be a growing demand for virus free computing, Apple can fill that void and still enhance the user experience and still sell their own HW. I would buy a Mac, someone else may buy a Dell with OSX to try it, because that way he still has a fully functional PC sold to him by the same company that sold him his last PC. What I am saying is that Apple could and should position themselves to provide solutions to the customer base that may want to try OSX if Vista is cracked open like a wallnut.
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