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R.I.P. - New Orleans, August 29, 2005?? - Page 5  

post #161 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Your first statement is suspect at best. Can you substantiate it with something better than "what I heard?"

Can you explain how both the Louisiana and the Mississippi governor (a Republican with closer ties to Bush than most) made the same procedural mistake?
That statement is completely false. I'd enjoy seeing you try to back it up, though.

Oh yeah, and welcome to Political Outsider...

Why is it that people are told to the convention center and then ... days later we learn that people are stranded at the convention center? How come no one knew they were waiting there?

Obviously the national guard was not ready. Why not? Why did the governor fail so badly?

This isn't political outsider. I stay out of that forum. Maybe I'll stay out of this one.
post #162 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I don't agree with him and why should I?

Oh, you've got me now.

It's obvious that you're a very, very independent thinker.

Hey, do you suppose that if it's even remotely possible that Bush was without blame, one of his biggest and most consistent supporters would say so?

Hmm. . . Naa.
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post #163 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by PBook12
This isn't political outsider. I stay out of that forum. Maybe I'll stay out of this one.

Ahh, guess you missed my sarcasm. Sorry, too subtle.

My apologies also for getting so political in my reply to your apolitical post.





Did you catch the sarcasm that time?
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post #164 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Oh, you've got me now.

It's obvious that you're a very, very independent thinker.

Hey, do you suppose that if it's even remotely possible that Bush was without blame, one of his biggest and most consistent supporters would say so?

Hmm. . . Naa.

Dude, i don't even know who Tucker Carlson is or what he does. Nor do i care.
post #165 of 269
Wow. This dude spends 90% of each day over the past year posting about politics online and he doesn't know who fucker carlson is. Naples, do you even read anything between spamming the boards with 40 despicable "the water should win" posts a day? Actually, don't bother. The answer is obvious.
post #166 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Dude, i don't even know who Tucker Carlson is or what he does. Nor do i care.

Ah, well. That's a much better answer than, say, googling him and learning that he's who I've already said he is, which is a guy who makes a living by arguing a lot like you do.

Don't worry, though - your lack of knowledge about one of the better-known professional pundits out there makes your political opinions seem muuuuch more informed and credible.

Personally, though, I suspect you're just lying about not knowing who he is, in order to dodge the actual point I was making by bringing him up in the first place.

But hey, whatever makes you happy, and all that.
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post #167 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Your first statement is suspect at best. Can you substantiate it with something better than "what I heard?"

Here's part of SF's emergency plan:

"Level III

A community- or region-wide event, such as an earthquake. A Mayor's declaration of local emergency would be followed by a Governor's State of Emergency declaration. The Governor may request a Presidential Disaster Declaration. The Site EOP would be implemented and a central District Emergency Operations Center (EOC) would be fully activated to coordinate District-wide response efforts."

I'm sure it is not that different from NOLA.

Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Can you explain how both the Louisiana and the Mississippi governor (a Republican with closer ties to Bush than most) made the same procedural mistake?
That statement is completely false. I'd enjoy seeing you try to back it up, though.

I think it was you that brought up MS, not him.
post #168 of 269
http://www.sba.gov/disaster/declarations.html

HOW DISASTER DECLARATIONS ARE MADE

All declaration requests must come from the Governor or authorized representative. The Governor can ask for a Presidential disaster declaration or an Small Business Administration (SBA) Administrative declaration, depending upon the severity of the disaster. A Presidential declaration makes many Federal and State programs available, including SBA loans. An SBA declaration makes only SBA loans available.

Presidential Declarations

The Governor contacts the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) if the State believes damages justify a Presidential declaration. FEMA conducts a Preliminary Damage Assessment (PDA) of the area. We join FEMA, State and local representatives in the PDA when the damages include homes and businesses. If the PDA shows enough damages, the Governor can ask for a declaration. FEMA forwards the Governors request and the PDA results to the President for a decision. If the President declares the area for Individual Assistance, SBA offers physical and economic injury loans in the declared counties and economic injury (EI) loans only in contiguous counties.
post #169 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
...


That statement is completely false. I'd enjoy seeing you try to back it up, though.

Oh yeah, and welcome to Political Outsider...

New York Times reports.

Quote:
An estimated 20,000 were to be at the four-story convention center, which at some points apparently attracted as many refugees as the Superdome but was ignored much longer by rescue operations. Conditions there were even worse than at the Superdome, with armed thugs seizing control and, the authorities said, repulsing squads of police officers sent to retake it.

I assume they were ignored because no one really knew how many were there.
post #170 of 269
Quote:
BATON ROUGE-Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

Saturday, August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:
. Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.
. Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.
. Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.
. Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.
. Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.



The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:
. FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.

I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,


Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor

There you go, Naples - I even bolded the relevant sections (including the date of the request) for you, since I know how much you like to briefly skim anything longer than 3 lines before replying.
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post #171 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by PBook12
New York Times reports.



I assume they were ignored because no one really knew how many were there.

You probablu realize that if your "assumption" favors Bush, you are "assumed" stupid and uninformed by the majority here.
post #172 of 269
Naples, if you think it's due to your political leanings, then the point proves itself.

BTW, are you going for a record number of posts in a day? You already have about double the posts of anyone else in each of these threads.
post #173 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
There you go, Naples - I even bolded the relevant sections (including the date of the request) for you, since I know how much you like to briefly skim anything longer than 3 lines before replying.

Here I can bold too:

BATON ROUGE-Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

Now compare that to what i posted previous. careful now,
post #174 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Here I can bold too:

Maybe your typing skills aren't as dismal as you say, then....
Quote:
The National Guard was called out, and curfews were imposed amid reports of looting in New Orleans and Gulfport.
"The federal government is prepared to help you once the storm passes," said President Bush, who declared the region a disaster area. "In the meantime, America will pray."

Originally Published Tuesday, August 30

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-291881c.html

NEXT???
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post #175 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Maybe your typing skills aren't as dismal as you say, then....
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-291881c.html

NEXT???

???? indeed.

http://www.govexec.com/features/0600/0600s2.htm

Talking about how troops work. In this case a mock terror attack, but you get the point.

Quote:
And though they are federally funded, federally trained and operate according to military doctrine, they are not federal troops. They are National Guard troops in state status. Unless called to federal service by the President, Guard units are under the command of their state governors, which makes them uniquely poised for the civil support mission.

"It's widely believed that federal assets would arrive on the scene too late," says Charles Cragin, assistant secretary of Defense for reserve affairs. "A federal asset in this environment is a slower response. The only way to get there fast was to make these teams a state asset."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency

Quote:
State of emergency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A state of emergency is a governmental declaration that may suspend certain normal functions of government, may work to alert citizens to alter their normal behaviors, or may order government agencies to implement emergency preparedness plans. It can also be used as a rationale for suspending civil liberties. Such declarations usually come during a time of natural disaster, during periods of civil unrest, or following a declaration of war (therefore, in democratic countries many call this martial law, most with non critical intent).

Getting clearer?
post #176 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
???? indeed.

http://www.govexec.com/features/0600/0600s2.htm

Talking about how troops work. In this case a mock terror attack, but you get the point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_emergency

Looks like I didn't use enough bold last time.
Quote:
The National Guard was called out, and curfews were imposed amid reports of looting in New Orleans and Gulfport.
"The federal government is prepared to help you once the storm passes," said President Bush, who declared the region a disaster area. "In the meantime, America will pray."

Originally Published Tuesday, August 30

Quote:
Getting clearer?

I'm pretty unclear about point exactly you are trying to make with these quotes.

I thought it was something about paperwork being filed improperly by the governor and the states of emergency and disaster not getting declared in a timely manner as a result.
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post #177 of 269
It's a moot point because FEMA and the federal Homeland Security Department were tasked with coordinating the federal response and were aware of what their role was supposed to be even before katrina hit land.
post #178 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Looks like I didn't use enough bold last time.
I'm pretty unclear about point exactly you are trying to make with these quotes.

I thought it was something about paperwork being filed improperly by the governor and the states of emergency and disaster not getting declared in a timely manner as a result.

I'm tired an this is not worth arguing about.

I guess we will find out when the investigations start. I assure you that state governors have to request help. The military can't just march in without a request. I would think that would be unconstitutional.
post #179 of 269
"in other words, you're full of it"

edit - fine, I'll catch a fish for you.

You were arguing against my post disagreeing with the following:

Quote:
Originally posted by PBook12
[B]What I heard was that the governor failed to call up the national guard before the storm. Failed to pull the "disaster area" trigger soon enough after the storm. That trigger starts the federal reaction.

But, I think your last post means that you've given up, so you're calling it a night, and tomorrow you'll ignore the fact that this whole absurd sub-argument you cooked up ever existed.
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post #180 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
"in other words, you're full of it"

post #181 of 269
Really, naples, it's just disgusting watching you try to parse law in an effort to deflect blame from federal agencies.

Everyone deserves blame. Of course, most of us can't really do anything about the louisiana government's failures, but we can do something about the federal governments failures.
post #182 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX



http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...our+full+of+it

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
That's neither worth the effort nor necessary.

So, your full of it then?

Very well. [/B]

I would have found it faster if I had searched under your username for "your full of it" instead of searching for "you're full of it" - I should have known better

So - once again - care to try to address the point you were trying to make in the first place?
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post #183 of 269
It all comes down to poor planning and execution on all levels, local, regional, state and federal. Letting criminals go because the water level was rising shows that the police had not planned for this. Lack of a control center for all people to go thru to process, identify, help with food and medical is a FEMA problem. The region should of had plans where they could put up large numbers of people for extended time (an evacution site above sea level). The Army Corp of Engineers for not strengthening the levees when they knew a huge storm was coming. And of course the individuals that stayed even after they were warned. Yes I know that some could not leave but over 100,000. I love NO and have many fond memories of it. The next question will be " Will they learn from the short-sightedness".

reg
post #184 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by reg
It all comes down to poor planning and execution on all levels, local, regional, state and federal. Letting criminals go because the water level was rising shows that the police had not planned for this. Lack of a control center for all people to go thru to process, identify, help with food and medical is a FEMA problem. The region should of had plans where they could put up large numbers of people for extended time (an evacution site above sea level). The Army Corp of Engineers for not strengthening the levees when they knew a huge storm was coming. And of course the individuals that stayed even after they were warned. Yes I know that some could not leave but over 100,000. I love NO and have many fond memories of it. The next question will be " Will they learn from the short-sightedness".

reg

Notice the fair assessment.

Well done.
post #185 of 269
maybe you missed my edit above, Naples. Are you giving up on the point you were working so hard to make?

You were arguing against my post disagreeing with the following:

Quote:
Originally posted by PBook12
[B]What I heard was that the governor failed to call up the national guard before the storm. Failed to pull the "disaster area" trigger soon enough after the storm. That trigger starts the federal reaction.
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post #186 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
maybe you missed my edit above, Naples. Are you giving up on the point you were working so hard to make?

You were arguing against my post disagreeing with the following:

Look, you think it's all Bush's fault, i don't.

We dissagree. What else is left?
post #187 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Look, you think it's all Bush's fault, i don't.

Again, if you can find a post of mine and quote me (see above for a fine example of how something like that works) where I EVER said "it's all Bush's fault" then, once again, I'll request a one-week ban.

NO ONE here said it's "all Bush's fault" despite your attempts to rephrase our criticism of his actions that way. The consensus here (and in the country and the vast majority of the media right now) is that Bush made mistakes that made the situation worse, and it would be nice if he would own up to it and apologize for it.
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post #188 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
We dissagree. What else is left?

Half a page ago you were determined to "prove me wrong" and you failed, and now you're running away.

Someone's full of something, that's for sure.
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post #189 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Half a page ago you were determined to "prove me wrong" and you failed, and now you're running away.

Someone's full of something, that's for sure.

Are you talking about the MS angle, about how you think both governors made the same mistakes?

I actually ignored that as I thought it was a diversion, since it is based on anecdotal evidence.

Let's discuss it tomorrow, if it's that important.
post #190 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Again, if you can find a post of mine and quote me (see above for a fine example of how something like that works) where I EVER said "it's all Bush's fault" then, once again, I'll request a one-week ban.

NO ONE here said it's "all Bush's fault" despite your attempts to rephrase our criticism of his actions that way. The consensus here (and in the country and the vast majority of the media right now) is that Bush made mistakes that made the situation worse, and it would be nice if he would own up to it and apologize for it.

Man what a cop out.

I have heard here in these very forums:

Bush's stance on the environment caused the hurricane to be more powerful.
Bush doesn't care about black people.
Bush doesn't care about the poor.
Bush appointed a boob to head FEMA (which might be true) and thus all decisions he makes are Bush's fault.
on and on and on....

Then you want to claim that hey no-one really said "it's ALL Bush's fault:..."



Anyway, Maybe I just misunderstood the overall theme of this multi-thread discussion.
post #191 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Are you talking about the MS angle, about how you think both governors made the same mistakes?

I actually ignored that as I thought it was a diversion, since it is based on anecdotal evidence.

Let's discuss it tomorrow, if it's that important.

No.

Not talking about MS.

I have quoted someone else's statement that I disagreed with (THREE times now), and you started this whole tangent about states of emergency and disaster in an attempt to prove me wrong.

I've quoted dates for both Declarations that completely refute the original poster's claim, and you've posted . . . well, a lot of semi-coherent quotes and stuff that doesn't seem relevant.

YOU were the one who thought the argument was important enough to start in the first place, and then the one who wussed out when asked to clarify the point you were trying to make.

I've gone out of my way to retrace the discussion for you, since it's apparently sooooo difficult for you to remember your original point, and you've still avoided the question.

It's your argument, it's up to you to decide if you want to try to continue to support it.

I think you've just backed yourself into a corner, and are going to take your ball and go home now and pretend none of this ever happened.

But hey, what do I know?
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post #192 of 269
The lack of an adequate federal response is bush's fault. It's so simple even you should be able to understand that, naples. The law you keep talking about is a diversion that has nothing to do with FEMA.
post #193 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Man what a cop out.

Yes, that's exactly what your post is.

Useless blathering about what you claim others are saying, without a single quoted post to back it up.

You seem to be subscribing to the theory of "throw enough shit against the wall, and something will stick."

But, it's not the wall it's sticking to!
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post #194 of 269
Clearly what was not anticipated by local officials was that FEMA would fail, that 1/3 of the police force would desert, that all agencies would abandon the city out of fear and that no one would take the lead.
post #195 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
No.

Not talking about MS.

I have quoted someone else's statement that I disagreed with (THREE times now), and you started this whole tangent about states of emergency and disaster in an attempt to prove me wrong.

I've quoted dates for both Declarations that completely refute the original poster's claim, and you've posted . . . well, a lot of semi-coherent quotes and stuff that doesn't seem relevant.

YOU were the one who thought the argument was important enough to start in the first place, and then the one who wussed out when asked to clarify the point you were trying to make.

I've gone out of my way to retrace the discussion for you, since it's apparently sooooo difficult for you to remember your original point, and you've still avoided the question.

It's your argument, it's up to you to decide if you want to try to continue to support it.

I think you've just backed yourself into a corner, and are going to take your ball and go home now and pretend none of this ever happened.

But hey, what do I know?

Point.

There are specific procedures to follow in these curcumstances as my posts prove. I posted the quote by a military person stating that state assets can respond faster than federal ones in an emergancy. I posted information showing that a declaration of emergency is different than a declaration of disaster. Both of which need to be requested by the governor or a representative through FEMA abd finally granted by the president.

I also gave you a report of what Colonel Hunt , a military advisor found out about the situation, which agrees with exactly what PBook posted.

I think that sums up why I think that you are wrong about PBook being wrong.

Happy.
post #196 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I also gave you a report of what Colonel Hunt , a military advisor found out about the situation, which agrees with exactly what PBook posted. [/B]

Apparently I missed that somehow... could you please re-quote what he said?

and include some of your reasoning of how that relates to the LA governor taking too much time to have a state of disaster declared (especially in light of my quote proving that the state of disaster was declared no later than Tuesday morning)?

edit - here's a fourth reminder of exactly what I was disagreeing with:
Quote:
Originally posted by PBook12
What I heard was that the governor failed to call up the national guard before the storm. Failed to pull the "disaster area" trigger soon enough after the storm. That trigger starts the federal reaction.
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post #197 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Point.

There are specific procedures to follow in these curcumstances as my posts prove.

I never took issue that there were specific procedures to follow (as you might note one of my quotes consisted of said prodedures being followed).

I took issue with the statement that the LA governor caused the late response.

Do you have any evidence of that, or just that there are in fact specific procedures?
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post #198 of 269
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FormerLurker
[B]Apparently I missed that somehow... could you please re-quote what he said?" It was on fox news Oreilly Factor. He laid it out very plainly what happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
and include some of your reasoning of how that relates to the LA governor taking too much time to have a state of disaster declared (especially in light of my quote proving that the state of disaster was declared no later than Tuesday morning)?

He specifically stated that she took too long to basically call for help. She should have started the process before the Hurricane. It involved specific steps in the process.

Your quote about the disaster declaration is a misprint by the source you quoted or Hunt is totally wrong. I guess you'll have to pick. I think they meant emergency and not disaster. I saw it happen on just about every news station. Because reporters don't always know the difference.
post #199 of 269
And I gave Naples more credit than he was due, seeing as though he only got his information from a fox interview.

What he's referring to is the Posse Comitatus Act which prevents federal troops including federalized national guard troops to act as law enforcement in a state. See that reference to "Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act)" in Blanco's request? That's a reference to the governor's request for exemption, putting the ball in Bush's court ... on the 27th.

Apparently Naples and all of the other people trying to use this law to deflect blame from bush missed that.
post #200 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
I never took issue that there were specific procedures to follow (as you might note one of my quotes consisted of said prodedures being followed).

I took issue with the statement that the LA governor caused the late response.

Do you have any evidence of that, or just that there are in fact specific procedures?

Yes there was a report by Colonel Hunt on the Orielly factor. Last night.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › R.I.P. - New Orleans, August 29, 2005??