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New charges against Lance Armstrong - Page 2

post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Stereotypes are bad, they blind us, and bias us.

I completely disagree and realize that I'm probably in the minority on this.

The reasoning you gave for stereotypes being bad is that they could be wrong. But this is true about anything in life. A bridge could be engineered incorrectly and collapse.

Stereotypes are not inherently good or bad. They are tools whose use is determined by the user.

It would be stupid to discard stereotypes as a tool. Their use in comedy is one way to touch on common traits without being confrontational... and it's funny.

For instance: Blacks are more likely to develop diabetes. Would you have doctors ignore this?
post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
not to be an asshole, but how is armstrong annoying? because he has dominated the tour for so long?

also, i wasn't aware that these allegations were more than just that, allegations. if, perchance, he was found to have been doing illegal substances, then he deserves whatever criticism you can throw his way. until then, it just comes across as sour grapes.

I don't remember it correctly, because i don't care that much for cycling, but two or three years ago, they found illegal substances. He always said the lab was wrong and accused them of trying tu ruin his career.

Now they found something new (old?), and he says in Larry King something like "and now some little guy in a Frend lab accuses me without giving me a chance to defense myself, that's ludicrous" -- well such things happen when you cheat (or at least there is evidence you probably have cheated).

Armstrong implies he's somewhere above the law and should be treated differently than others. I think this is arrogance, but maybe that's just a European thing.

Stereotypes may result in funny jokes. You won't believe it, but we do it as well, from time to time. But if those jokes are made by people who use almost exact words in posts in political discussions not ment as jokes, it not that funny anymore.
post #43 of 53
The only gripes I have with Lance is his disability to show happiness or satisfaction with winning the Tour the last four years. I´ll rather let some 21 year old, who actually value it, surprise us all.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #44 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
yeah, i know. but you know how it is, you people all look the same. my point is that you are over generalizing not just the french, but europeans as well. not all the french believe these accusations against armstrong nor all europeans are not weenies. besides, what determines if a person is a weenie? is it because they don't agree with your particular view on things, political or otherwise?

I must clarify my statement.
I was referring to some posters on this board, not all Europeans.
post #45 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
In fairness, a lot of Europeans (not just the French) do show a degree of schadenfreude when an American athlete fails...it's not because they hate Americans though, they just like to piss off those Americans who express the kind of jingoistic arrogance displayed by one or two of the posters in this thread.

One thing I have noticed is that the kind of American who is likely to find jokes about how dirty and cowardly the French are (or how everyone in England has bad teeth and is kinda gay, or how the Japanese have small penises) to be funny is generally someone with deeply rooted feelings of cultural and historical inferiority who hasnt traveled much. The kind of American who regards such jokes as pointless, ignorant and stupid is generally one who is intelligent enough to realize that nationalities, races and religions are not sports teams.

Or, I'm the kind of American that loves sarcasm, even if it is directed at Americans. I grew up with Saturday Night Live, and also Don Rickles. I love to laugh. Go ahead, tell me a joke against Bush, I won't mind. Of course I can't stand him so that doesn't show much, then go ahead make a jewish joke, or a American joke, I like'em all.
post #46 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
The ironic thing is that most americans could care less about cycling.

On a seperate note:

Jokes about stereotypes are funny. Seriously!

I especially appreciate them because they tend to call attention to traits that we all notice but never mention in order to avoid offending anyone. This is why people go see standup comedy acts. Comedians are allowed to say things that we would find insulting in everyday life. It is a good way to acknowledge stereotypes in a non-confrontational manner. Ignoring stereotypes makes you blind to many realities in the world.

Case in point, Chris Rock's HBO special. He called attention to stereotypes in both black and white cultures.

Another example: My father is a psychologist while I am a programmer. We love to rib eachother about our differences in personality and lifestyle.

I suspect that those offended by the original post are carrying over aggression from previous confrontational experiences. (Granted, some of the subsequent posts were obviously made by complete assholes.) So what if someone mentioned that french and american shower habits are slightly different... or even that the difference is overblown. Exagerations are funny too.

Thank you! Someone understands.
Try to catch The Mind of Mencia on Comedy Channel. The guy is a riot-he makes fun of everyone, every nationality, body size, language, etc.
post #47 of 53
It is true that jokes about stereotypes can be funny, but they are more frequently offensive, divisive and reductive. Whether or not they are funny depends on the originality and wit in the joke, not on the stereotype itself. Whether or not they are offensive depends on the teller and the context.

Whether or not an unfunny joke is mistakenly regarded as funny depends on the intelligence and maturity of the audience.

Q.E.D:

post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
I completely disagree and realize that I'm probably in the minority on this.

The reasoning you gave for stereotypes being bad is that they could be wrong. But this is true about anything in life. A bridge could be engineered incorrectly and collapse.


Stereotypes are not inherently good or bad. They are tools whose use is determined by the user.

It would be stupid to discard stereotypes as a tool. Their use in comedy is one way to touch on common traits without being confrontational... and it's funny.
[/B]

An humorist play with stereotypes, but he doesn't promote them. And generally he play with all stereotypes : there is no agenda behind, or at least in a perfect world.

Stereotypes are not based on any scientifical or sociological studies. They tend to emprison you in a box : "you are an average US citizen, thus you have no culture, you are french, so you stink, you are ..."
So if you take stereotypes as only jokes, this is not bad, but people take that like reality, and here it's dangerous.

Quote:

For instance: Blacks are more likely to develop diabetes. Would you have doctors ignore this?

This is not a stereotype, this is a scientifical study. I also doubt that you will heard joke about it, at least I never heard any.
post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
This is not a stereotype, this is a scientifical study.

Well, if you start with the premise that stereotypes are wrong, than I suppose that you could consider stereotypes as being wrong.

However, most stereotypes are based in fact. We tried to pretend that AIDS wasn't predominately a gay afflicting disease when it first emerged. Unwillingness to address this stereotype resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths before awareness caught up with reality. This is pretty well acknowledged in the gay community now. Thousands of lives could have been saved if we had addressed the gay community's increased risk back then.

Stereotypes are useful and not inherently good or bad. What you actually seem to be railing against is xenophobia. It's best to understand the two concepts as distinct and not throw a useful tool out with the bath water.
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
i don't know. his whole persona just annoys me. winning every tour de poisson annoys me too. i've got nothing to back it up, seriously

fair enough.
post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
We tried to pretend that AIDS wasn't predominately a gay afflicting disease when it first emerged. Unwillingness to address this stereotype resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths before awareness caught up with reality. This is pretty well acknowledged in the gay community now. Thousands of lives could have been saved if we had addressed the gay community's increased risk back then.

That is not true at all. AIDS was initially (in the late 1970s / early 1980s) considered to be something that only impacted the gay community. It wasn't until the medical community discovered that anyone could become HIV positive that the term for the illness was changed from GRIDS (Gay-Related Immunodeficiency Syndrome) to AIDS. The reason that the disease spread as widely as it did in the 1980s is because it was dismissed as being a gay-only issue (and therefore a low priority in terms of raising awareness and funding research).
post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
Well, if you start with the premise that stereotypes are wrong, than I suppose that you could consider stereotypes as being wrong.

However, most stereotypes are based in fact. We tried to pretend that AIDS wasn't predominately a gay afflicting disease when it first emerged. Unwillingness to address this stereotype resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths before awareness caught up with reality. This is pretty well acknowledged in the gay community now. Thousands of lives could have been saved if we had addressed the gay community's increased risk back then.

Stereotypes are useful and not inherently good or bad. What you actually seem to be railing against is xenophobia. It's best to understand the two concepts as distinct and not throw a useful tool out with the bath water.

I think that we have a definition problem here.
Here is a link to Wilkopedia. In my book stereotype are far away of scientifical studies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype
post #53 of 53
Pull yourself together. The French are not always to blame for everything, at least in real life. If a few people in this forum being arrogant about America bothers you, then please, by all means, get pissed and shoot the next guy that honks their horn at you in traffic.

IF Armstrong was cheating, then the guys who placed 2 through 10 were cheating too. Several cyclist have done interivews on tv (in France) saying they didn't think that holding on to Armstrongs samples was legal or ethical. That tells me that they all most likely juicing...


Quote:
Originally posted by durin oakenskin
Maybe because it's not funny? Because there is a big possibility that Armstrong really cheated? Because of Freedom Fries? Because the French are always to blame for everything? Because of the outcome of every political thread in this forum? Because the superiority of the Americans demonstrated by certain members in this forum? Because we might know France better than you? Because...
Hard-Core.
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Hard-Core.
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