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MS and Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray

post #1 of 298
Thread Starter 
Microsoft and Intel on Monday threw their support towards the next-generation HD DVD format being promoted by the DVD Forum, pitting themselves against Apple and other electronics manufacturers that have so far sided with Sony's competing Blu-ray format.

According to Macworld UK, the world's largest software maker and the world's largest microchip maker announced their support for HD-DVD by joining the HD-DVD Promotion Group, an industry organization set up to promote adoption of the optical disc format.

Other members of the group include electronics makers NEC, Sanyo and Toshiba, as well as content providers Universal Studios and Paramount Pictures. The company's say the HD DVD format would make it easier for consumers to copy high-definition movies to computer hard drives.

The format of next-generation DVD discs, designed to store movies and other content with much more detail and clarity, have sparked a three-year battle between the DVD Forum and Sony, over what is expected to be a multi-billion-dollar market for next-generation DVD players, PC drives and optical discs, according to Reuters.

In March, Apple teamed with the likes of Samsung and Panasonic in vouching its support for Sony's Blu-ray HD format by joining the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Despite the fact that Intel and Microsoft combine to supply the technology behind at least 9 out of every 10 personal computers, their decision to back the HD DVD format at this time does not end all hope for the Blu-ray format.

Sony's Blu-ray format continues to garner ongoing support in Hollywood, with several studios, including Walt Disney, Sony Pictures and Twentieth Century Fox, saying that they will release high-definition movies on Blu-ray.

Meanwhile, Universal Studios and Paramount Pictures are backing HD DVD.

High-definition DVD discs, such Blu-ray discs, will have five times larger capacity than today's DVDs, with a single-layer disc holding up to 25 gigabytes of data and a double-layer disc holding up to 50 gigabytes of data.

The first HD DVD-compatible players and recorders are expected to start appearing on store shelves as early as the end of this year, with new products for both formats scheduled for wider release in 2006.
post #2 of 298
I see this move as Microsoft and Intel's cozying up to the bigwigs at the studios at the expense of their customers. It would be an interesting poll to take, but I bet that 95 % or so of the Wintel user base prefers Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. Had Microsoft and Intel announced for Blu-Ray, HD-DVD would be deader than last week's carp. This serves to stir up the market, but I believe that Blu-Ray will prevail in the end. It is just that Windows OEMs and users will have to rely on third-party solutions.
post #3 of 298
I really don't think Intel cares one way or another, aside from the possible fact that they don't want to be in the pool with Sony. The ultimate conclusion to this battle will involve component cost of blu-ray vs. hd-dvd hardware. If volumes can get the price down, then that's a big deal.

Unfortunately for HD-DVD, PC's won't adopt HD-DVD for some time, even if it's supported by MS. The PC hardware industry is extremely cost driven, as well as extremely phobic of new peripheral hardware. The winner will be whoever can get the product out first, en masse, with media behind it.
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post #4 of 298
I've heard that only HD-DVD will have backwards-compatibility with DVDs. If that is the case, I sure as hell won't be buying a PC or Mac that comes with a "Blu-Ray" disc drive, especially after all the backup DVDs I've burned.

Even if Blu-Ray does have backwards-compatibility with DVDs, I'd still rather have HD-DVD; HD-DVD sounds like it'll be much cheaper than Blu-Ray and will have a less orwellian DRM system on it.

So really, I'll spring for whichever is cheapest, least restrictive with DRM, and most compatible. Both sound spacious enough to a person with only an 80 Gb hard drive.
post #5 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Me
I see this move as Microsoft and Intel's cozying up to the bigwigs at the studios at the expense of their customers. It would be an interesting poll to take, but I bet that 95 % or so of the Wintel user base prefers Blu-Ray over HD-DVD.

first, why is this at the expense of their customers? by all accounts blu-ray will cost more and not be backward compatable. this sounds to me like helping their customers.

second, i bet 95% of the user base has no idea what blu-ray is, let alone favor it.

third, i for one will stick with plain ol' dvd as will most consumers (think CD vs DVDaudio/superdisc). CDs win because they are good enough for most people, fairly cheap, play in any player, and can be ripped. same goes for dvds.
post #6 of 298
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray are directly backward compatible with current DVD. They both use completely different technology from current DVD.

HD/BD use blue laser which focus a tighter beam. Current DVD/CD use red laser. Future hardware will have to have a blue and a red laser to play HD/BD and backward compatibility with current DVD/CD.

From my understanding MS may be more willing to back HD-DVD because it will make more concessions to MS's proprietary VC-1 codec. While Blu-Ray is more based on MPEG-4, but does include VC-1.

HD-DVD won't be in the upcoming XBox, so who knows when MS will actually ship something with the format.

It is known for sure PS 3 will ship with Blu-Ray.

I'm not sure why Intel is to back HD-DVD. From a computer storage standpoint Blu-Ray is the clear winner.

As far as cost both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD would be far more expensive than current DVD in the beginning. And both will come down in price as they become more of a commodity. At this point no one can say if one would be more expensive for consumers than the other.
post #7 of 298
I don't mind having two devices: a dvd and a blu-ray. DVD players are cheap as dirt these days, and I'm buying a PS3 or two as soon as they come off the docks. (Yes, I'm part of the "hack the PS3" initiative.)

As far as regular joes, it doesn't seem to me like it's like a big deal to have a DVD player as well as a Blu-ray player. There's plenty of room under a huge, HDTV for many components.
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post #8 of 298
Unless something changes (lower HD-DVD prices, present in the xbox360 at launch), I just don't see HD-DVD having any traction at all.

Who would pay $1000 for a HD-DVD player, when you could get a PS3 for half of that?
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post #9 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by tirefire
...especially after all the backup DVDs I've burned.

So, in a year's time, you'll be restoring year-plus old backups?!

Eh?
post #10 of 298
Quote:
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray are directly backward compatible with current DVD. They both use completely different technology from current DVD.

Only partially true. HD-DVD uses the same disc structure as DVD. They both employ similar Numerical Aperture this is why a DVD-9 Pressing Plant can be upgraded to HD-DVD for 150k (source Rick Marquardt industry vet)

Blu-Ray requires a whole new pressing plant estimated at 2 million capital outlay (source Rick Marquardt)

Any economy of scale that Blu-Ray sees will undoubtedly be seen by HD-DVD as well meaning HD-DVD should be the price leader for quite some time.

Quote:
From my understanding MS may be more willing to back HD-DVD because it will make more concessions to MS's proprietary VC-1 codec. While Blu-Ray is more based on MPEG-4, but does include VC-1.

Blu-Ray had it's origins in MPEG2...in fact Sony has to be basically forced into adding MPEG4/AVC and VC-1. At one time Sony had planned to eschew any type of Red Laser compatibility.

Quote:
As far as cost both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD would be far more expensive than current DVD in the beginning. And both will come down in price as they become more of a commodity. At this point no one can say if one would be more expensive for consumers than the other

No, quite the contrary. People in the industry have a much better idea about what HD-DVD will entail and frankly are waiting to see concrete evidence regarding the costs of Blu-Ray production. BD discs will require a spin coat and this doesn't necessarily mean that TDK's Durabis will be used due to expense. There are more than one spin coat competing technologies and to date Sony hasn't mandated any particular tech.

I think MS support almost guarantees and Xbox 360 HD. I'll buy both a PS3 and an Xbox 360 HD in this case. Most newer HDMI receivers have 2 to 1 switching. Perfect for both units.

This is a see saw battle and one week Blu-Ray will look good and the next HD-DVD will look good. We'll have to wait and see what the final products look like.
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post #11 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by tirefire
I've heard that only HD-DVD will have backwards-compatibility with DVDs. If that is the case, I sure as hell won't be buying a PC or Mac that comes with a "Blu-Ray" disc drive, especially after all the backup DVDs I've burned.

Even if Blu-Ray does have backwards-compatibility with DVDs, I'd still rather have HD-DVD; HD-DVD sounds like it'll be much cheaper than Blu-Ray and will have a less orwellian DRM system on it.

I almost spilled my tea onto the keyboard reading that. Really, the (legal) movies you get on either kind of disk will cram DRM up your throat. If you care about that, you can't buy either kind.

I only started buying DVD's after DeCSS went public and I knew I could get the raw data off the disk. However, since I haven't found a way to unlock my Macs' drives after switching, I now have movies in my shelf I can't watch due to wrong region. I've wised up, and will only shell out money for HD when the disk is clean. DRM on product breaks copyright's basic premise, so I no longer consider copyright to apply to any product equipped with it.
Quote:
So really, I'll spring for whichever is cheapest, least restrictive with DRM, and most compatible. Both sound spacious enough to a person with only an 80 Gb hard drive.

You plan to have a 80GB hard drive after a year? After two years?
post #12 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Me
I see this move as Microsoft and Intel's cozying up to the bigwigs at the studios at the expense of their customers. It would be an interesting poll to take, but I bet that 95 % or so of the Wintel user base prefers Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. Had Microsoft and Intel announced for Blu-Ray, HD-DVD would be deader than last week's carp. This serves to stir up the market, but I believe that Blu-Ray will prevail in the end. It is just that Windows OEMs and users will have to rely on third-party solutions.

let's not forget the cool name too...Blu-Ray kicks HD-DVD's ass anyday (think Firewire vs: IEEE-1394, and yes I know they're the same)

Kinda makes sense for the studios to back the one with the most DRM/Dollar on it...although the DVD regions is a pain in the ass for people with (legal) DVD's from 2 (or more) regions.
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post #13 of 298
Blu-Ray is finished. I'll languish for bit and then fade. Here's why.

1. MS and Intel support. Both 800lb Gorillas in their field. Both HD-DVD. Both have multimedia initiatives in Media Center PC and Intel ViiV hardware platform.

2. Costs- Two large Pressers in China announced support for HD-DVD. %75 of dvds are made in China. Huge

3. Size- HD-DVD is far ahead with working models. MS and Intel claim that Sony isn't mass producing 50GB discs thus it's 30GB versus SL BDROM 25GB.

4. Licensing- Blu-Ray uses BD-Java which could cost as much as $6 per player. HD-DVD uses XML based iHD which is far cheaper and requires less programming knowledge.

5. Hybrid support. HD-DVD supports DL 30GB plus a SL DVD 4.7GB on the flipside. Perfect transition format.

Things just got dire for the BDA.
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post #14 of 298
Quote:
Only partially true. HD-DVD uses the same disc structure as DVD.

I wasn't speaking to manufactuering procedure only its backward capability to current DVD. Which neither HD or BD are because of red and blue laser.

Quote:
Sony has to be basically forced into adding MPEG4/AVC and VC-1. At one time Sony had planned to eschew any type of Red Laser compatibility.

Be that as it may. BD supports MPEG 4 and VC-1 now.

Quote:
No, quite the contrary. People in the industry have a much better idea about what HD-DVD will entail and frankly are waiting to see concrete evidence regarding the costs of Blu-Ray production.

Its not contrary its the same thing I said, costs between the two for the consumer is unknown at this point. Being an unknown doesn't mean BD will be substantially more expensive for the consumer than HD.

You are referencing that complete one sided op-ed piece on Arstechnica.

Quote:
I think MS support almost guarantees and Xbox 360 HD.

XBox will launch before Christmas and no it will not support HD-DVD. In fact no one is shipping HD-DVD before this Christmas.

Quote:
Blu-Ray is finished. I'll languish for bit and then fade. Here's why.

I don't care which wins myself.

But someone who is vested in Blu-Ray has plenty of reason it is not dead and could prevail. One reason is the fact that Blu-Ray will be in Play Station 3.
post #15 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
I only started buying DVD's after DeCSS went public and I knew I could get the raw data off the disk. However, since I haven't found a way to unlock my Macs' drives after switching, I now have movies in my shelf I can't watch due to wrong region.

On a Mac, it's trivial to extract the DVD data even on locked drives. I have yet to unlock my drives and I have done this.
post #16 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
[B]I almost spilled my tea onto the keyboard reading that. Really, the (legal) movies you get on either kind of disk will cram DRM up your throat. If you care about that, you can't buy either kind.

I only started buying DVD's after DeCSS went public and I knew I could get the raw data off the disk. However, since I haven't found a way to unlock my Macs' drives after switching, I now have movies in my shelf I can't watch due to wrong region. I've wised up, and will only shell out money for HD when the disk is clean. DRM on product breaks copyright's basic premise, so I no longer consider copyright to apply to any product equipped with it.You plan to have a 80GB hard drive after a year? After two years?


eh...? VLC from videolan and macTheRipper is all you need
post #17 of 298
Didn't Apple pledge support for HD-DVD and HD in all of it's video/DVD editing and authorizing products? Thought so.
post #18 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Jared
Didn't Apple pledge support for HD-DVD and HD in all of it's video/DVD editing and authorizing products? Thought so.

Apple does have rudimentary support for HD-DVD in their DVD Studio Pro and their OS X-included DVD Player reads it. It basically allows HD video on DVD writables or disk images. I really don't know if there is a standard that is complete enough to have good compatibility testing.

The odd thing is that they are a member of the Blu-Ray group, not HD-DVD.
post #19 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Blu-Ray is finished. I'll languish for bit and then fade. Here's why.

1. MS and Intel support. Both 800lb Gorillas in their field. Both HD-DVD. Both have multimedia initiatives in Media Center PC and Intel ViiV hardware platform.

2. Costs- Two large Pressers in China announced support for HD-DVD. %75 of dvds are made in China. Huge

3. Size- HD-DVD is far ahead with working models. MS and Intel claim that Sony isn't mass producing 50GB discs thus it's 30GB versus SL BDROM 25GB.

4. Licensing- Blu-Ray uses BD-Java which could cost as much as $6 per player. HD-DVD uses XML based iHD which is far cheaper and requires less programming knowledge.

5. Hybrid support. HD-DVD supports DL 30GB plus a SL DVD 4.7GB on the flipside. Perfect transition format.

Things just got dire for the BDA.


Ah no, HD-DVD is already chocking on water and is minutes away from drowning.

1)HP, Apple and Dell back BRD, so it doesn't matter one bit what M$ and Intel do.

2)The majority of movie companies (big boys) support BRD.

3)Size, you're comparing the HD-DVDF to the single layer BRD, try comparing it to the dual layer at over 50gigs a disk

So, let's summarize, they have the PC MAKERS, the have the bigger movie studios which means CONTENT and they will have the bigger, better GAME CONSOLE all supporting BRD. HD-DVD is over.
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post #20 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I really don't think Intel cares one way or another, aside from the possible fact that they don't want to be in the pool with Sony. The ultimate conclusion to this battle will involve component cost of blu-ray vs. hd-dvd hardware. If volumes can get the price down, then that's a big deal.

Unfortunately for HD-DVD, PC's won't adopt HD-DVD for some time, even if it's supported by MS. The PC hardware industry is extremely cost driven, as well as extremely phobic of new peripheral hardware. The winner will be whoever can get the product out first, en masse, with media behind it.


On the money dude! PC users dont like new trends.. it will take a hardware innovator to make the leap. Move over superdrive here come BlueDrive.
post #21 of 298
See, this is where Big Government can be useful. If the industry was told:

"We don't care what tech you come up with, there will be ONLY ONE HiDef DVD standard. Period. Now go have a meeting and come up with one standard if you wnat to sell any of them in the US"

things would be better. No one would dictate the tech, but merely demand that there will not be multiple standards. If it meant relaxing some antitrust provision then so be it. We don't allow multiple TV broadcast standards why is this different (ignoring current transition from analog to digital TV)?

Multiple standards are just wasteful and hard on consumers.
post #22 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
<snip>

The odd thing is that they are a member of the Blu-Ray group, not HD-DVD.

Apple is a member of the DVD Forum group as well. I don't think they are a steering member but they are a member. They are part of the BDA Board so basically they are firmly on the fence ready to go in either direction. They will likely not chose sides because they are into the authoring aspect and really don't have to.

Quote:
1)HP, Apple and Dell back BRD, so it doesn't matter one bit what M$ and Intel do

Patently false. There's a disc with the HD-DVD logo right on the DVD Studio homepage. I viewed an Apple Training video where the engineers stated they support the Type 1 specification for HD-DVD and they didn't rule out Blu-Ray support but the authoring tools weren't ready to ship. Apple is NOT a Blu-Ray only supporter..they are a fence sitter end of story.

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2)The majority of movie companies (big boys) support BRD.

HD-DVD has Warner, Universal, New Line and Paramount would disagree with your statement. You won't see LotR on Blu-Ray.

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3)Size, you're comparing the HD-DVDF to the single layer BRD, try comparing it to the dual layer at over 50gigs a disk

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html

salient quote with my emphasis added

Quote:
The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.

Couple that with two pressers in China announcing support for HD-DVD and you see that the BDA just took a huge direct shot by losing more pressers and the largest Software and Microprocessor company in the world. If that's not a hole in the hull I don't know what is. Consumers have been told that they should expect 4 layer 100GB discs but it's all been theory..the practice has been less than stellar.

Advantage: HD-DVD
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post #23 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Blu-Ray is finished. I'll languish for bit and then fade. Here's why.

1. MS and Intel support. Both 800lb Gorillas in their field. Both HD-DVD. Both have multimedia initiatives in Media Center PC and Intel ViiV hardware platform.

2. Costs- Two large Pressers in China announced support for HD-DVD. %75 of dvds are made in China. Huge

3. Size- HD-DVD is far ahead with working models. MS and Intel claim that Sony isn't mass producing 50GB discs thus it's 30GB versus SL BDROM 25GB.

4. Licensing- Blu-Ray uses BD-Java which could cost as much as $6 per player. HD-DVD uses XML based iHD which is far cheaper and requires less programming knowledge.

5. Hybrid support. HD-DVD supports DL 30GB plus a SL DVD 4.7GB on the flipside. Perfect transition format.

Things just got dire for the BDA.


I don't buy any of that for one minute.

Blu-ray has much braoder support by hardware manufacturers.

JVC has developed a hybrid disc for Blu-ray.

While pricey, Sony does have a blu-ray machine on the market. So far, its been vaporware for HD-DVD. Hell, they now say they will not have a shipping product until after the first of this year.

I have also been reading that Blu-ray has a superior form of copy protection. The studios are starting to take notice.


I can't actually take everything MS is spewing about BRD as fact.

If they are so hot to trot on the format, how come X360 is not shipping with one. Especially since they are touting this "HD Era" stuff and all.

Blu-ray for the win.

PS3 is going to give the format significant market penetration.
post #24 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison




Advantage: HD-DVD

BRD has more PC manufactures support then HD.
advantage BRD

BRD has Lions Gate, Universal Music Group, Sony Pictures (Columbia TriStar & MGM), Fox, EA (games), VU (games)
advantage BRD

Board of directors-
Currently, the Blu-ray Disc Association's Board of Directors consists of: Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television. Not to mention members Fuji, Alphine, Kenwood, BenQ, ATI, TDK, and many others you've never heard of.

Pretty big list, advantage BRD.

of and this-


Quote:
Jul 13, 2005 - Study Shows Consumers Prefer Blu-ray Disc Over HD-DVD

A new poll suggests that as the battle between Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD heats up, consumers overwhelmingly prefer Blu-ray Disc as their format of choice. In the poll, conducted by Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates, a nationally recognized strategic polling firm, consumers were given a side-by-side comparison of the two formats. Out of the 1200 consumers surveyed 58% preferred Blu-ray Disc, 26% were undecided and only 16% preferred HD-DVD. Of those consumers who indicated that they are extremely interested in purchasing the next-generation format, 66% favored Blu-ray, 19% were undecided and only 15% preferred HD-DVD. Among the key reasons consumers preferred Blu-ray were the ability to play the discs in more CE devices, personal computers and gaming consoles, backward compatibility with current DVD media, disc capacity and the ability to record large amounts of high-definition or standard definition video and data.
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post #25 of 298
Quote:
Blu-ray has much braoder support by hardware manufacturers.

Yeah but how many are exclusive? Apple isn't exclusive to Blu-Ray yet because they joined the BDA Board everyone thinks they are. Samsung is a BDA member that has openly stated they are working on a universal players. BDA members look like a long list but rare is the company that is claiming any Blu-Ray exclusivity.

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JVC has developed a hybrid disc for Blu-ray.

Not part of the BDROM spec. You won't have support for this disc in the PS3 or any other BD player in 2006. It was purely theoretical.

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While pricey, Sony does have a blu-ray machine on the market. So far, its been vaporware for HD-DVD. Hell, they now say they will not have a shipping product until after the first of this year.

Those Japan Blu-Ray don't support the newer codecs nor the BD-J support or new authoring environment.

Quote:
I have also been reading that Blu-ray has a superior form of copy protection. The studios are starting to take notice.

Yes Fox took note of the copy protection but what if BD+ makes manage copy an impossibility and suddenly consumers see MS Media Centers playing back copied HD movies from their network. Think that's not an advantage?

Quote:
I can't actually take everything MS is spewing about BRD as fact.

So Microsoft Intel and just about everyone else is lying or engaging in FUD? The BDA is horribly behind schedule regarding the authoring environment. Apple's been shipping Type 1 HD-DVD authoring since May in DVD SP 4. Blu-Ray authoring is just now getting some legs.

What isn't disputed is fab costs. Blu-Ray means an outlay of 2 million dollars. DVD-p facilities can be upgraded for a tenth of that. Advantage HD-DVD

Show me ANYWHERE that proves Sony is mass producing 50GB DL discs. Hint..they haven't. They got the geeks salivating on 100GB 4 layer dreams but haven't figured out how they're going to reliably surmount the very finite tolerances required. BD 4 layer is never going to be cheap.

It's obvious that Blu-Ray is not going to be the consumer HD choice after a few years. I look for studios to begin to defect after a couple years of financial bloodshed. Microsoft is very confident in their choice.

Blu-Ray fans are clinging to hope. Hey I'm buying both myself but my head just tells me that HD-DVD is the more elegant solution.
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post #26 of 298
Yes BDA has more hardware manufacturers but I know that many of them offer no exclusive allegiance. If BD falters they'll simply jump ship. Samsung is on the fence and LG is potentially as well. Many are DVD Forum members.

Microsoft is company that will be on %95 of computers. That's a much larger advantage.

Quote:
Among the key reasons consumers preferred Blu-ray were the ability to play the discs in more CE devices, personal computers and gaming consoles, backward compatibility with current DVD media, disc capacity and the ability to record large amounts of high-definition or standard definition video and data.

Consumers don't know shit about the formats. If someone told you that you could get 50GB of space to record versus 30GB of course they'll opt for the larger drive.

Of course no one told them Sony might struggle to get DL 50GB discs manufactured. In fact most of the Blu-Ray laptop drives are non-functioning mockups. I see trouble ahead for BDA.

HD-DVD is far ahead of the game even if they're not shipping in calendar 2005
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post #27 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Microsoft is company that will be on %95 of computers. That's a much larger advantage.

The endorsement of Intel and MS for HD-DVD is meaningless. Blu-ray drives will work with Microsoft operating systems and Intel processors, and neither company (except xbox division of MS) directly sells hardware.

It is up to the computer manufacturers to choose what drive to ship. The most that microsoft can do is fail to ship a Blu-ray driver, so that the manufacturers have to add it (which happens for most hardware already anyway).

I can't really see anything that either company can do to help or hurt either format (except Microsoft could have one or the other in launch hardware of the xbox 360, that is the only thing either company could do).
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post #28 of 298
I see some of you already have had your daily dose of HD-DVD crack. Do me a favor, get off the dope and come join us back in reality.

It was already a given Microsoft was a supporter of HD-DVD as they want their codec VC-1 to be on what they hope to be the next generation HD media. Also, it was a given Intel wanted to go the same route considering they are the company responsible for changing how absentee votes were counted in the DVD Forum to schew the votes toward the adoption of HD-DVD format. No suprise here, nothing has changed.

This news still does not take away the fact that Blu-Ray is supported much more so than HD-DVD as it pertains to vendor support. Hello? Do we really need to see the long list of companies backing Blu-Ray again? Let me ask you HD-DVD fanboys this, when was the last time you saw Microsoft or Intel create a PC or Mac Disc Drive????...Enough said. Blu-Ray has Philips, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, HP, Dell, BenQ, JVC, Samung, Sharp, and others to create drives for them. Is market penetration even a question?

For those of you really smoking on the crack pipe about Apple being a fence sitter when it comes to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, take a break from toking and realize Steve Jobs himself said he hopes to be burning Blu-Ray Discs in a previous WWDC. Need I mention their membership in the Blu-Ray Board of Directors. My money is on Blu-Ray Drives in the next PowerMac models with Intel inside. Of course, that may have all been a ploy right HD-DVD fans? Listen, while you enjoy your theories about Apple possibly supporting HD-DVD with your hopes pinned on the fact that they have some support in their current offerings of software, I'll go ahead and just enjoy the next shipment of PowerMacs equipped with Blu-Ray Drives, Ok.

PS3 with Blu-Ray Drive at $399 or HD-DVD player at $1000,...? PS3 with Blu-Ray Drive at $399 or HD-DVD player at $1000,...? Hmm. Seems like a tough one to me.

Also, those of you saying that Blu-Ray is not backwards compatible with current DVDs are false. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players will both play DVDs, CD-ROMs, MP3s, etc just fine.

Also, what is this crap regarding the mass production of 50 GB discs? I find it hard to believe that Sony, Philips, Pioneer, Panasonic, etc are having trouble mass producing disks, sounds like FUD to me. Especially condidering they've had working 50 GB discs for a while now as well as working 100 GB discs.

I give HD-DVD 6 months upon rollout. After that, they will die a slow, painful, and deserved death. Blu-Ray most certainly will be the victor.
post #29 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
eh...? VLC from videolan and macTheRipper is all you need

Ah. Didn't realize this. It would still be preferable to be able to play the discs directly, of course, but in the meantime I'll go with macTheRipper. I already use VLC for all video.
post #30 of 298
Quote:
The endorsement of Intel and MS for HD-DVD is meaningless. Blu-ray drives will work with Microsoft operating systems and Intel processors, and neither company (except xbox division of MS) directly sells hardware.

Man Blu-Ray fans sure are keen on dream scenarios. If Microsoft add support for HD-DVD in Windows Vista it means that support is plug and play and with Media Center PCs and Intel's ViiV multimedia platform it's clear that having them in your corner is far from meaningless.

Quote:
I see some of you already have had your daily dose of HD-DVD crack. Do me a favor, get off the dope and come join us back in reality.

Blu-Ray fans don't know about reality..they know about theory. HD-DVD is for people who want reality. Let's commence with dissecting your weak arguements.

Quote:
It was already a given Microsoft was a supporter of HD-DVD as they want their codec VC-1 to be on what they hope to be the next generation HD media.

Blu-Ray supports VC-1 as well killing that arguement. Amir Majidimehr, VP of Windows Digital Media Group, said they kept Blu-Ray as an option until the last minute.

Quote:
Also, it was a given Intel wanted to go the same route considering they are the company responsible for changing how absentee votes were counted in the DVD Forum to schew the votes toward the adoption of HD-DVD format. No suprise here, nothing has changed.

FUD...Blu-Ray was never submitted for inclusion as a format for HD-DVD. Search the web and you'll find this to be true. Another arguement down in flames.

Quote:
This news still does not take away the fact that Blu-Ray is supported much more so than HD-DVD as it pertains to vendor support

Really? Most of the hardware vendors listed on the BDA page are also DVD Forum members. They have access to both technologies and can switch at any time. No company is showing a working laptop BD ROM drive...imagine that. Samsung has already stated they want to create a universal drive so they are certainly not a BD exclusive.


Quote:
For those of you really smoking on the crack pipe about Apple being a fence sitter when it comes to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, take a break from toking and realize Steve Jobs himself said he hopes to be burning Blu-Ray Discs in a previous WWDC.

Yes and a Sony Exec just happened to be due to come on stage showing off the Sony HDV camera. WTF was Jobs supposed to say? People are authoring HD-DVD content right now (Ben Waggoner) and loving the result. Where's Blu-Rays authoring? Nascent at best 6 months later.


Quote:
Need I mention their membership in the Blu-Ray Board of Directors. My money is on Blu-Ray Drives in the next PowerMac models with Intel inside.

Apple is also a member of the DVD Forum and has been for years. Apple will BTO either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray but they will not be standard. Remember how DVD-RAM caught on fire thanks to Apple? Hint...it didn't.

Quote:
PS3 with Blu-Ray Drive at $399 or HD-DVD player at $1000,...? PS3 with Blu-Ray Drive at $399 or HD-DVD player at $1000,...? Hmm. Seems like a tough one to me.

Please provide where you got the HD-DVD player pricing. Oh yeah that's right...it's made up. Pricing has not been announced we don't know what the players will cost.

Quote:
Also, what is this crap regarding the mass production of 50 GB discs? I find it hard to believe that Sony, Philips, Pioneer, Panasonic, etc are having trouble mass producing disks, sounds like FUD to me. Especially condidering they've had working 50 GB discs for a while now as well as working 100 GB discs.


Well that depends on if you rely on sites like engaget for your info or you get info from people in the industry. I hang out and AVS Forums where the insiders discuss things and it's clear that BDROM DL 50GB is not going to be used in the initial launch. Problems about with spincoat leaving uneven surfaces and other problems have been spoken about for a while. This is the first time a large company like MS and Intel have come out and said what the insiders have been saying for months. They're not seeing fab costs anywhere close to HD-DVD. Your info is based on theory and special lab tests. Big difference when mass quantities are needed.

Quote:
I give HD-DVD 6 months upon rollout. After that, they will die a slow, painful, and deserved death. Blu-Ray most certainly will be the victor.

*chuckle* yeah suuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Since I like to leave my lurking HD-DVD supports with good info I'll include a piece written by Amir M of Microsoft talking about why HD-DVD eschewed Java in lieu of iHD.

Quote:
iHD is a combination of static mark-up (XML), timing specification, and programming (ECMA Script aka J-Script). The static mark up is similar to HTML in that it describes graphics, menu items and such together with positioning. So if you know web authoring, you already know how to create things in iHD.

Unlike web content though, the timing syntax lets the presentation change in real-time (with tight synchronization with A/V content). This means that without writing a single line of code, you can have menus that are fully dynamic and interactive.

Now if you want to do more than the above does, then you can add scripting. Again, this is very similar to the web model (including apps such as Flash). A process that is very familiar and one that lends itself easily to authoring automation/apps. Most importantly, there is nothing to compile. You make a change and you can see the results immediately.

iHD interfaces with the base system through 200 methods and 250 properties. These are designed specifically for the application at hand: interactive content together with A/V content.

Contrast the above with BD-J. You have a virtual machine developed over the last 7 years in MHP, DVB, Cable Labs, ATSC. The result is a monstrous system with 944 classes and roughly 10,000 methods. Only a fraction of these will be used in BD-J but due to Suns licensing restrictions, all of them have to be implemented in BD players. So now we have much larger footprint in the player with no justification.

Since BD-J is also a programming language, the source needs to be compiled into bytecode before execution. In addition, even simple things require writing a program. And the author needs to have debugging experience. Yes, tools will be written to automate some of this but someone still has to debug them from time to time and from someone who has done this, I have to tell you that nothing is worse than debugging machine generated code!

While this is not a fault of Java per-se, the BD-J system currently lacks the ability to handle two video decoding streams. iHD in HD DVD on the other hand, fully supports picture-in-picture as one of its graphical elements (on top of the full screen video).

Anyway, I dont want to turn this discussion into geek talk of these technologies. Suffice it to say, DVD Forum considered Java and Flash and rejected both in favor of iHD. The support for iHD was exceptionally strong there to boot.

Amir
Microsoft

Another checkmate.

Buh Bye Blu-Ray.
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post #31 of 298
I wonder if talks between Sony and Toshiba a few months ago sounded anything like this thread?

Saw this yesterday:

HD-DVD player for notebooks

Have any Blu-Ray players for notebooks been announced? Apparently the media may not start production before Q1/Q2 next year while Ritek and CMC Magnetics have been preparing HD-DVD media production for Q3/Q4 this year.
post #32 of 298
I'm not entirely sure where all the partisanship comes from, since, either way, I get to watch videos in HD.

Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The endorsement of Intel and MS for HD-DVD is meaningless. Blu-ray drives will work with Microsoft operating systems and Intel processors, and neither company (except xbox division of MS) directly sells hardware.

Correct. In addition, neither the Xbox 360 nor the PS3 has enough user base or specific market to sway the format battle very much without accompaniment from major media providers. What WILL ultimately make the difference are the economies involved.

1) Whichever format first, gets out on working units, and is supported by some media will, obviously, be the first to establish a user base. The fact that Sony was able to flood the market with PSP disks -- practically overnight -- is a good thing for Blu-ray.

2) The first format to establish a user base will be the first to see huge production. Huge production runs lead to much lower materials costs AND serve to offset any licensing costs.

3) When considering the returns, 2M for a Blu-ray line is a drop in the bucket, especially if it promises longer-term residual value.

4) The consumer electronics market has never been swayed by one devices claim to offer better or "easier" software authoring. There are a shitload of java programmers out there, and another two shitloads in India. I don't see programmability as a deciding factor at all, so long as both have acceptable functionality.

So that's my take. I'd like to point out once again that I don't really care which one wins. If I seem slanted in the BluRay direction, it's only because it seems to me like they have a better business case at the moment (they promise to be out first). However, I still wouldn't put any money towards a bet on which will succeed.
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post #33 of 298
Please provide where you got the HD-DVD player pricing. Oh yeah that's right...it's made up. Pricing has not been announced we don't know what the players will cost.

Tisk, tisk, someone sounds very angry for one so sure that Blu-Ray will go down in flames. I don't like to make things up, so here ya go...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050810-5194.html
http://www.cnet.com/4520-10602_1-5618766-1.html
http://www.blu-ray.com/ceatec2004/
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/10/technology/dvd_apple/

The expected retail price of Toshiba's HD-DVD player is $1,000. If Toshiba announces $999, I'm sure you'll let me know.

Really? Most of the hardware vendors listed on the BDA page are also DVD Forum members. They have access to both technologies and can switch at any time. No company is showing a working laptop BD ROM drive...imagine that. Samsung has already stated they want to create a universal drive so they are certainly not a BD exclusive..

Exactly. Most BDA members are on the DVD Forum. Which shows your lack of knowledge of how the BDA (I realize the BDA already had some members) came about. Because most of these members of the DVD Forum who supported Blu-Ray were absent when a vote was cast for the inclusion of the HD-DVD format. Thus you had a coo led by Intel to change how absentee votes were cast. The way absentee votes were cast were for a vote of "no" for any potential subscribed format. They changed that by saying absentee votes were undecided, thus with all HD-DVD supporters present, it was set for inclusion no problem. A most certainly backhanded way to give your format the DVD Forum stamp of apporval. However, that's reality. Thus you had numerous companies from the "DVD Forum" mind you that joined the BDA group...including Apple. And now, you think these members who joined the BDA will all of a sudden choose HD-DVD after Microsoft and Intel officially announced HD-DVD support? I find that highly unlikely. I never said anything about Blu-Ray submitting a request for inclusion to the DVD Forum.

Enjoy that 1080i picture you're going to get with HD-DVD while I enjoy a 1080p picture in pristine quality. Here's the link for this statement, you should remember this one, I only showed it to you a couple months ago...

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/052305toshiba/

I give HD-DVD the odds that Roddick has of beating Federer in a tennis match...not good.

Game...Set...Match...
post #34 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
neither the Xbox 360 nor the PS3 has enough user base or specific market to sway the format battle very much without accompaniment from major media providers.

There you are wrong - Sony sold 80 million PS2s, and Microsoft sold 20 million xbox 1s. This next generation should sell even more units.
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post #35 of 298
I had the battle at Love before the recent announcements. I still feel like it's 60/40 in favor of HD-DVD now.

If you look at it logically it really is HD-DVD that is executing for the most part. Their work on DL is further along and their lens assemblies are smaller. Does this guarantee a win? No, certainly not but Blu-Rays technical superiority is beginning to look false. They're struggling(obviously) with DL media and the costs look to be prohibitive. Say what you will but if I can press HD-DVD for 200k over my initial DVD-9 investment I'm liking that a lot more than 2 million for a Blu-Ray line that cannot be retrofitted to DVD-9 if the format fails.

Sony is asking the pressers to make a huge leap of faith and I bet you'll see companies balk at the price considering Blu-Ray cannot guarantee an adequate ROI over HD-DVD.

I first thought the BD-J features of BDROM was nice but after hearing about iHD (Which Disney..a BD supporter lobbied for heavily) I see BD stuck with another poor technology for dubious reasons.

If you haven't seen the promotion efforts from Microsoft regaring Media Center Edition Windows then you're not close enough to the industry. MS is pushing this hard and with great HD-DVD support and Intel pushing ViiV I could hardly call that meaningless.

HD-DVD has everything that counts

1. HD feature length films -check
2. Lossless Audio -check
3. Excellent DVD bridge support- check
4. Long Term Cost advantages- check
5. Name recognition- check
6. Major vendor support- check
7. Studio Support- check(enough to launch a format)
8. Robust authoring- check

Sony has....the PS3 and an overly complex format that is going to cost its partners a bundle.

HD-DVD has the right advantages that generally lead to a product winning. Sony has the technical advantages that usually lead to Betamax vs VHS scenarios.
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post #36 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
There you are wrong - Sony sold 80 million PS2s, and Microsoft sold 20 million xbox 1s. This next generation should sell even more units.

The PS3 is both Blu-Ray's greatest advantage and greatest weakness. Sony has alot to gain by building-in Blu-Ray into the PS3 to be able to get the technology in the hands of the most people at the lowest price point (around $499).

The only reason Sony can sell such costly technology so cheap (Sony will lose money on each PS3 sold) is that they make money on royalties on all the proprietary software and accessories for the PS3. While this sounds like a win-win situation to the average consumer it isn't so great to other electronics manufacturers who 'must' make money on selling Blu-Ray hardware.

If indeed an electronic manufacturer other then Sony wants to make a Blu-Ray player how are they going to be able to compete against the PS3 @ a $499 price point. Not only will Sony be able to sell the PS3 cheaper then a stand alone Blu-Ray player from another electronics manufacturer but the PS3 offers so much more then any possible stand alone Blu-Ray player could.

The problem is that Blu-Ray gives too much of a price and feature advantage to Sony over other electronics manufacturers and those other manufacturers know this. While Blu-Ray is superior to HD-DVD IMO at least HD-DVD gives all the other electronics manufacters a more-even playing field and a more likely chance to make a profit on hardware instead of trying to match Sony's unfair price adavantage with the PS3 thats unfairly subsidized by it's software sales.
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post #37 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by johnsocal
The PS3 is both Blu-Ray's greatest advantage and greatest weakness.

Good point, but remember that 25% of all DVD players sold are PS2s:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...advdsales.html

http://www.armchairempire.com/videog...25-million.htm

And the PS3 is looking to out-sell the PS2. Now remember that regular DVD players will continue to be sold, very few people will opt for a high-definition DVD player deliberately.

If it wern't for the PS3, sales of both would be weak, and it would be an even race. I figure that each would sell 100K units per year.

But it won't be an even race, the PS3 back doors a high definition player into most people's house, and you end up with 10 million PS3s sold per year vs 50K HD-DVD players.

Now the content providers notice this of course, and they produce either Blu-ray or old style DVD content, producing HD-DVD content is a waste of time.

The only neiches left unfilled by the PS3 are the budget player (unburdened by the cell processor and other high cost parts of the PS3), and also the very high end player. Both will be Blu-ray players because that is where all the content will be (as a result of the 10,000,000 vs 50,000 imbalance above).
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post #38 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Buh Bye Blu-Ray.

Wow, so anti-Blu-ray!
I thought I remember you saying in some thread or another that you were trying to be objective about this format war.

Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Apple is NOT a Blu-Ray only supporter..they are a fence sitter end of story.

I think it can be safely assumed that Apple is backing Blu-ray since the company is not merely a member of the BDA, but is on the Board of Directors.
The DVD Forum didn't even put a link next to Apple on their Member List.

Content is going to be king in this war.
HD-DVD
Warner Bros.
Paramont Pictures
Universal Studios
New Line Cinema

Blu-ray
Sony/MGM
20th Century Fox
Walt Disney
Lions Gate
Buena Vista Home Entertainment

Sony Pictures' acquisition of MGM gives it the largest catalog of Film and TV in Hollywood by far - 7,500 Films and 45,400 TV episodes, specials, etc.

Oh and Blu-ray authoring is ready to go. We could start tomorrow - replication is another story though.

Blu-ray for teh win!
post #39 of 298
OMG Sony bought MGM?!?!? When in the fuck did that happen?
post #40 of 298
A year ago:
link
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