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MS and Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray - Page 5

post #161 of 298
If Warner does capitulate then the battle is indeed over as Warner stands to gain significant royalties from HD-DVD just as they did with DVD.

I think this would signify that the content providers are unanimous in their desire to protect their assets. They don't give a rip about the exta space of Blu-Ray they are more in to the extra DRM (BD+).
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post #162 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
If Warner does capitulate then the battle is indeed over as Warner stands to gain significant royalties from HD-DVD just as they did with DVD.

I think this would signify that the content providers are unanimous in their desire to protect their assets. They don't give a rip about the exta space of Blu-Ray they are more in to the extra DRM (BD+).

yeah warner will tumble soon and go bluray. whats the use of royalties from HD-DVD if you're the only one using it? getting royalties from yourself is kinda pointless
post #163 of 298
now i've been lurking around here for a while and i'm noticing a lot of faith and speculation put into the PS3.

Sony and others seem to be really banking on the PS3 pushing blu-ray into the market.

i'm just confused....

no one has seen a single game coming out of the damn machine and are already saying it's going to stomp the Xbox360.

How the hell do you know this? you dont. Nintendo ruled the market for years and years and is now considered number 3.

sony had 2 consoles cycles dominated by the playstation. 2 only, so its fair to say you really dont know how well this thing will do.


my money is on microsoft this round.



just watch, wait and see.

oh and i side with HD-DVD
post #164 of 298
smart man
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post #165 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
smart man

Wishful thinking.
post #166 of 298
Interesting topic in which no one really has a definitive answer. It's kind of like reading tea leaves.

From my semi-Ludite gut level feeling, as things stand now BlueRay will be the winner, but over the next five years will be a niche product like laserdiscs were. The basic problem is that there isn't yet a critical mass of HD TVs in-home. Thus regular DVD will remain the standard. But who knows.
post #167 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by OldCodger73
Interesting topic in which no one really has a definitive answer. It's kind of like reading tea leaves.

From my semi-Ludite gut level feeling, as things stand now BlueRay will be the winner, but over the next five years will be a niche product like laserdiscs were. The basic problem is that there isn't yet a critical mass of HD TVs in-home. Thus regular DVD will remain the standard. But who knows.

Possible. But with them being able to both record and play both DVD's and CD's, they will get into most homes as the price goes down.
post #168 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
now i've been lurking around here for a while and i'm noticing a lot of faith and speculation put into the PS3.

Sony and others seem to be really banking on the PS3 pushing blu-ray into the market.

i'm just confused....

no one has seen a single game coming out of the damn machine and are already saying it's going to stomp the Xbox360.

How the hell do you know this? you dont. Nintendo ruled the market for years and years and is now considered number 3.

sony had 2 consoles cycles dominated by the playstation. 2 only, so its fair to say you really dont know how well this thing will do.


my money is on microsoft this round.



just watch, wait and see.

oh and i side with HD-DVD

There are actually quite a few PS3 movie clips online. You can find many on
gametrailers.com or on IGN.com.

The videoclip of the next Metal Gear Solid game is friggin' incredible looking
and running in realtime. Other videoclips that show the potential of the PS3:

The Getaway
Warhawk (scary realistic water)
EA's Fight Night Boxing game (face rippling looks amazing ala matrix 3.)
Gran Tourismo
Killzone

There were a lot of Xbox 360 games that just didn't look that impressive,
(perfect dark, kameo, saint's row, etc.) They looked like really nice xbox
games. They didn't scream "Next Gen" like the clips that I mentioned above.
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post #169 of 298
BusinessWeek has an interesting article about why HD-DVD will fail. It's quite interesting, especially the part about how Bill Gates wanted a format he could have complete control over. The fact that Microsoft is backing it should immediately raise red flags, especially for Mac OS users.

Quote:
Dell and Hewlett-Packard took the highly unusual step of issuing a joint statement denouncing the move by Microsoft and Intel, the PC makers' two most important suppliers. "Desperation" is the way Brian Zucker, a technology strategist at Dell, characterized Microsoft's move.

Paramount Pictures announced it would end exclusive support of HD DVD and support both standards. Warner Bros. is expected to follow suit in the next few days, sources say. That will give Sony six of the seven major studios

A major factor swaying these companies is Blu-ray's massive capacity. Its disks will hold at least 50 gigabytes and perhaps 100 gigs or more. HD DVD will start at 15 gigs, and top out at 45. "We want a standard that's going to be around for 10 or 15 years," says one studio exec.

Despite Time Warner's long alliance with Toshiba, CEO Richard Parsons asked Jeff Bewkes, chairman of the company's entertainment unit, to reconsider the best way to recharge DVD sales. Bewkes decided that the studio should forget appearances and back Blu-ray if it was the format most likely to win consumers' hearts. "Blu-ray's potential for more capacity started looking better and better," said one Hollywood executive.

The public attack may have backfired. One day after Microsoft talked up the importance of Toshiba's ability to hit the market first with its standard, Toshiba announced it would delay rolling out its own HD DVD players until after the holidays. Sony's Blu-ray-equipped PlayStations are scheduled to go on sale early next year, too.

You can read the rest of the article here:

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...9074_tc024.htm

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post #170 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by mello
There are actually quite a few PS3 movie clips online. You can find many on
gametrailers.com or on IGN.com.

The videoclip of the next Metal Gear Solid game is friggin' incredible looking
and running in realtime. Other videoclips that show the potential of the PS3:

The Getaway
Warhawk (scary realistic water)
EA's Fight Night Boxing game (face rippling looks amazing ala matrix 3.)
Gran Tourismo
Killzone

There were a lot of Xbox 360 games that just didn't look that impressive,
(perfect dark, kameo, saint's row, etc.) They looked like really nice xbox
games. They didn't scream "Next Gen" like the clips that I mentioned above.

and you are exactly the kind of person Sony targets with those "what the games could look like" stragedy.

if you ever followed sony and their console releases they have always done this. they show these clips which (i dont care what they say) are not in game footage. they have done this many times. they used crazy images to show off PS2 capabilities which still haven't been relized lol.

you think a console that hasn't even released beta versions are going to create games that look like that Killzone trailer? you really believe this? you reallly believe that microsoft would grossly under develop their system? come on. not to mention that everyone and i mean everyone is saying the CEll is extremely difficult to develp for at this point.

so the difference here is Sony is trying to hype "what they hope" could be and microsoft is showing you what they have, what is going to come out early in the systems life cycle.


it takes developers time to crack the possibilities of these consoles. people hoping for breakthroughs early on this gen will be dissapointed.
post #171 of 298
I prefer not to listen to marketing puffery.

The extra space of Blu-Ray means nothing. Both formats hold 6+ hrs of video.

I think the real answer is copy protection but that's not what the studios want to highlight. It's obvious they don't want a repeat of the DVD Burning fiasco.

Microsoft realizes that Managed Copy (which is a stipulation of the AACS copyprotection) means HTPC and Media Center PCs have more flexibility for streaming.

If Blu-Ray wins I won't mind but I don't think the best "consumer" format won. I think the best "content provider" format won.
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post #172 of 298
as far as movies go how much space do they really need?

if you think about it not many movies have all that many special features to fill that much space.


the capacity of HD-DVD is more than enough.
post #173 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
I prefer not to listen to marketing puffery.

The extra space of Blu-Ray means nothing. Both formats hold 6+ hrs of video.

I think the real answer is copy protection but that's not what the studios want to highlight. It's obvious they don't want a repeat of the DVD Burning fiasco.

Microsoft realizes that Managed Copy (which is a stipulation of the AACS copyprotection) means HTPC and Media Center PCs have more flexibility for streaming.

If Blu-Ray wins I won't mind but I don't think the best "consumer" format won. I think the best "content provider" format won.

I'm concerned more about the space because I have no interest in copying these disks, and won't be serving the contents over my network. It's a lot easier to just put the disk in the machine you want to watch from than to tie up valuable network bandwidth, even though I use Gigabit Ethernet. We have three people on the computers at the same time often enough. For backups 50 or 100 GB's is much better than 30 or 60GB's.

What do you want to do? Keep the disk in some carousel and have it stream to one machine? Why bother? Streaming to more than one machine requires much more complex equipment. I'd rather just put it into a player for my large screen TV if we're going to watch it together as opposed to watching it at the same time on different machines alone.
post #174 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
as far as movies go how much space do they really need?

if you think about it not many movies have all that many special features to fill that much space.


the capacity of HD-DVD is more than enough.

You're right. Unless they decide to do other things with the space there shouldn't be a difference. But five years from now, there might.
post #175 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
and you are exactly the kind of person Sony targets with those "what the games could look like" stragedy.

if you ever followed sony and their console releases they have always done this. they show these clips which (i dont care what they say) are not in game footage. they have done this many times. they used crazy images to show off PS2 capabilities which still haven't been relized lol.

you think a console that hasn't even released beta versions are going to create games that look like that Killzone trailer? you really believe this? you reallly believe that microsoft would grossly under develop their system? come on. not to mention that everyone and i mean everyone is saying the CEll is extremely difficult to develp for at this point.

so the difference here is Sony is trying to hype "what they hope" could be and microsoft is showing you what they have, what is going to come out early in the systems life cycle.


it takes developers time to crack the possibilities of these consoles. people hoping for breakthroughs early on this gen will be dissapointed.

The video I saw of Metal Gear Solid was a demonstration at TGS being
manipulated in realtime by the creator of the game. Also, there are videos
of fight night & the getaway being manipulated in realtime in front of an
audience. I heard that the Killzone video was actually running at 5 fps on
alpha hardware & edited to run at 60fps so I'll give you that one.
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Steve Summers: What are you, shy?...
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post #176 of 298
you know what all i have to do is walk the campus of a local univ and see how many people lug around dvds or cd's for that matter....

how many do you think? virtually no one to be honest.

its a small market to base an entire technology revolution on but to be honest why all the fuss?

i see kids transfering music, files, pictures, etc through ipods.

i see teachers presenting powerpoint slides through USB adapters

so honestly i dont see that many disks passing around.

so file sharing through dvd's is already out in my mind.

to me it leaves movies and games.

xbox 360 has this new live, they are banking heavily on downloadable content. nintendo is saying they will have a huge library of old games to be downloaded into the revolution... ps3 says they are going to introduce an online system but we have yet to see anytyhing


so this leaves movies. VHS is just now being completely wiped out. how quickly will people jump to blu-ray if its expensive as most are saying it is?
post #177 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by mello
The video I saw of Metal Gear Solid was a demonstration at TGS being
manipulated in realtime by the creator of the game. Also, there are videos
of fight night & the getaway being manipulated in realtime in front of an
audience. I heard that the Killzone video was actually running at 5 fps on
alpha hardware & edited to run at 60fps so I'll give you that one.

yes yes playstation has done the whole realtime manipulation thing before. you dont remember ps2's presentation of real time manipulation ?

even so lets say Metal Gear solid looks taht good when it comes out. are you forgetting thats cinematics? those images aren't even gameplay. its a ploy they use and man do people still fall for it.

kids go crazy seeing cinematics of Madden, even with the 360. But thats not even gameplay? it makes no difference really...

the ps2 won because of the dvd player they had. the first year or so of the ps2's life had virtually no killer games. people who bought dreamcast had awesome games to play right out of the box.

i think playstation is banking on another add on to win this generation again. however unlike sega, microsoft ins't trying to bounce back, they have the money incase of an emergency.
post #178 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
yes yes playstation has done the whole realtime manipulation thing before. you dont remember ps2's presentation of real time manipulation ?

even so lets say Metal Gear solid looks taht good when it comes out. are you forgetting thats cinematics? those images aren't even gameplay. its a ploy they use and man do people still fall for it.

kids go crazy seeing cinematics of Madden, even with the 360. But thats not even gameplay? it makes no difference really...

the ps2 won because of the dvd player they had. the first year or so of the ps2's life had virtually no killer games. people who bought dreamcast had awesome games to play right out of the box.

i think playstation is banking on another add on to win this generation again. however unlike sega, microsoft ins't trying to bounce back, they have the money incase of an emergency.

At the same time MS did that with the 360. They also had crappy demo's running off Mac G5's.

Don't forget that the 360 is now ready to go, just 5 weeks left. They had better be showing *real* games. So far, those who have seen them haven't been too impressed. The article in the Times the other day said that the games looked pretty good but not vastly better, and that the gameplay seemed to be about the same. They also said MS's new game, I forgot the name off hand, also looks good but was no way neer the breakthrough that Halo was when the X Box first came out.

Sony has a fair bit of time to go yet.
post #179 of 298
And I just got this Forbes e-mail, I hope the link works, sometimes it doesn't with them. Let me know.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2005/...ap2265797.html
post #180 of 298
Your link to the "China to Develop Its Own DVD Format" article worked fine. Interesting.
post #181 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison

Microsoft realizes that Managed Copy (which is a stipulation of the AACS copyprotection) means HTPC and Media Center PCs have more flexibility for streaming.

Yeah, and with Microsoft's involvement it will require Windows Vista. Thanks but no thanks.

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post #182 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
You're right. Unless they decide to do other things with the space there shouldn't be a difference. But five years from now, there might.

They plan on a great many things that will take up that extra space, some of which won't happen for several years. Movies and television are only the beginning. They want a technology as future-proof as possible and HD-DVD isn't it.

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     197619842014  

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post #183 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by 1984
Yeah, and with Microsoft's involvement it will require Windows Vista. Thanks but no thanks.

Managed Copy is a feature of AACS ...not a particular OS
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post #184 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Managed Copy is a feature of AACS ...not a particular OS

I'll bet it was MS and Intel that pushed for it though. If MS had waited on the intro of the 360 so that they could have put an HD drive in, they wouldn't care as much about it.

Since when has MS been consumer friendly?
post #185 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
ps3 says they are going to introduce an online system but we have yet to see anytyhing

You mean like Mac says they'll be using Pentium's processors in their Apples shortly?
post #186 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Managed Copy is a feature of AACS ...not a particular OS

Do you really trust Microsoft that much? With their influence I wouldn't count on it staying that way.

ERROR "Sorry, playback of this content is not supported on the Mac OS"
ERROR "Sorry, playback of this content requires Windows Media Player 11"

Microsoft failed in the music service/music player market. They see HD content as their secord chance.

Quote:
Every July, 400 of the most powerful media and tech industry chieftains meet at investment banker Herb Allen's conference in Sun Valley, Idaho, for what are usually convivial discussions of megatrends and megamergers. But this year, Microsoft (MSFT ) Chairman Bill Gates III laid into Sony (SNE ) Chief Executive Howard Stringer, according to two sources, including one who witnessed the exchange in a private room.

Gates argued that Sony's new high-definition DVD standard, called Blu-ray, needed to be changed so it would work smoothly with personal computers running on Microsoft's Windows operating system. Stringer and two lieutenants defended the technology, insisting Blu-ray would work fine in PCs.

Yet Gates's ire only grew. "There must be something much deeper going on," Stringer said later, according to another person who heard the comment. A Microsoft spokesman acknowledges that Gates and Stringer talked at the conference, but says things did not become "heated."

It sounds to me like Gates has something proprietary for Windows Vista in mind and control over the HD format is critical to his plans.

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post #187 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
At the same time MS did that with the 360. They also had crappy demo's running off Mac G5's.

Don't forget that the 360 is now ready to go, just 5 weeks left. They had better be showing *real* games. So far, those who have seen them haven't been too impressed. The article in the Times the other day said that the games looked pretty good but not vastly better, and that the gameplay seemed to be about the same. They also said MS's new game, I forgot the name off hand, also looks good but was no way neer the breakthrough that Halo was when the X Box first came out.

Sony has a fair bit of time to go yet.

why do you go off of what everyone says? have you played anything? have you tried the new controller?

you think the ps3 will bring crazy games never seen before? realize most games coming to the 360 will be released for the ps3 and vice versa.

i think people are expecting too much. when the ps2 came out games weren't that must different from ps1 sorry to say that. the graphics were better and thats it. have you seen the footage for perfect dark running on a HD tv? trust me it looks a lot better.. doesn't mean it will blow people away like their hoping. you have to give it time.

ha, halo when it was first shown for the xbox was not very well recieved lol. i remember it all too well.



anyways i dont care what dvd format they go for aslong as its at a current price point for regular dvd's.
post #188 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
as far as movies go how much space do they really need?

if you think about it not many movies have all that many special features to fill that much space.

the capacity of HD-DVD is more than enough.

Not to the studios. They want to release a full HD TV season on a single disk. If BluRay can do this and HD DVD can't, that's going to count to them to a degree.
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post #189 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by johnsonwax
Not to the studios. They want to release a full HD TV season on a single disk. If BluRay can do this and HD DVD can't, that's going to count to them to a degree.

understood but cant they fit most of it on one hd-dvd disk?
post #190 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
now i've been lurking around here for a while and i'm noticing a lot of faith and speculation put into the PS3.

Sony and others seem to be really banking on the PS3 pushing blu-ray into the market.

i'm just confused....

no one has seen a single game coming out of the damn machine and are already saying it's going to stomp the Xbox360.

How the hell do you know this? you dont. Nintendo ruled the market for years and years and is now considered number 3.

sony had 2 consoles cycles dominated by the playstation. 2 only, so its fair to say you really dont know how well this thing will do.


my money is on microsoft this round.



just watch, wait and see.

oh and i side with HD-DVD

Specs, game library, backwards compatible and the what, 80 million following makes the PS 3 the clear winner and you'll be losing that money, again

BRD is my choice to win.
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post #191 of 298
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
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post #192 of 298
all your hi-def are belong to bluRay
post #193 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
all your hi-def are belong to bluRay

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...9074_tc024.htm

Gates is freaking out, and 7 out of 8 Studios are in the Blu-ray camp. I wonder if Balmer is going to throw a chair again?

Sony should offer 10% of their Blu-ray royalties to Toshiba in exchange for support, and dump all Microsoft codecs (etc) from the Blu-ray standard...

I understand why Sony does not want to have the managed copy function, because that is the only way that the xbox360 will be able to play high-def movies (streamed from a PC).
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post #194 of 298
heh. Balmer: "i'm going to F***KING KILL SONY !!!! ARGHGHGHHG!"
post #195 of 298
These two mistakes in xbox360 design:

1. No hdmi digital video output
2. No HD-DVD drive

could spell the end of microsoft. Why do you need a home computer when a PS3 can do most everything that you need?

If the PS3 has a web browser and an office suite (open office for PS3?). Sony can cut out Apple and Dell and have the home computer market for itself - Microsoft's box is not capible of doing that.
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post #196 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
why do you go off of what everyone says? have you played anything? have you tried the new controller?

you think the ps3 will bring crazy games never seen before? realize most games coming to the 360 will be released for the ps3 and vice versa.

i think people are expecting too much. when the ps2 came out games weren't that must different from ps1 sorry to say that. the graphics were better and thats it. have you seen the footage for perfect dark running on a HD tv? trust me it looks a lot better.. doesn't mean it will blow people away like their hoping. you have to give it time.

ha, halo when it was first shown for the xbox was not very well recieved lol. i remember it all too well.



anyways i dont care what dvd format they go for aslong as its at a current price point for regular dvd's.

I'm simply telling what those who were actually there said. Were you there?

If you weren't then you don't know.

There were two shows, one was back earlier this year. Both MS and Sony had pre-rendered games shown. Neither admitted it at first.

MS's 360 is finished, and development for the games coming out the 22nd of Nov. are pretty much done. So they show ed them. Sony is at least 6 months behind, and the games for the PS3 aren't finished.

It's pretty simple, actually.

I don't recall us talking about controllers, just how the games looked.

There are big arguments about how well the Sony controllers will work, or how they will feel. But no one who has said that they didn't like them has actually used them. Sony has also said that they might not be the final design.

As far as "crazy games" goes, I have no idea what you are talking about. I think that's your problem, not Sony's.

There are two groups of console gamers out there from what I've seen on the various sites. Those who love the X Box and hate Sony, and those who love the PS2 and hate MS. It's easy to see which group you belong to.

And you are totaly wrong about Halo. There is no disagrrment about the fact that Halo made the X Box. It's been stated many times over the past few years that without Halo, the X Box would have been a big flop.
post #197 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
you think the ps3 will bring crazy games never seen before? realize most games coming to the 360 will be released for the ps3 and vice versa.

Not true - the systems are different enough that it is hard to port games. The list for the PS3 *just for Japan launch only* is over 100 games already - gamespot is down right now, so I can't give you exact game counts, but last time I looked there were way more titles announced for the PS3 than the xbox360. It does not matter to me because I will buy both.

Go to gamespot and look through the games. There are games that I want to play on both systems, but no game that I like so far that will be availble on both systems.
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post #198 of 298
we can sit here and do the mumbo jumbo all day long. we'll just have to wait and see.


the japanese market is not the number 1 market in gaming right now. its the U.S and in my opinion in the U.S the xbox is growing to have the number 1 seat.

to me personally i dont care about what console wins or doesn't. i just firmly believe what microsoft has in place here is the better overal system(not just specs)


however the big blow could be this blu-ray deal. if ps3 has it, if the blu-ray craze is taking off and the xbox doesn't carry it they are introuble.

EDIT: we were talking about when HALO was first shown at E3 for the xbox obviously everyone knows what became of halo after the laucnh.
post #199 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
EDIT: we were talking about when HALO was first shown at E3 for the xbox obviously everyone knows what became of halo after the laucnh.

Yes, we do. Halo sold a lot of X Boxes, and saved MS's ass.If you can call losing $1.2 billion a year on it, and being outsold 4 to 1 by Sony. Still it's been acknowledged, despite your disbelief, that if it weren't for Halo, the X Box might not be around today.
post #200 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Yes, we do. Halo sold a lot of X Boxes, and saved MS's ass.If you can call losing $1.2 billion a year on it, and being outsold 4 to 1 by Sony. Still it's been acknowledged, despite your disbelief, that if it weren't for Halo, the X Box might not be around today.


you're not understanding. i know that people regard halo as xbox's savior.

what i was talking about is how poorly halo was recieved during its showing at e3.

Sony's machine (ps2) was never anythign to marvel at. it couldve easily lost that first year to dreamcast if it weren't for the dvd drive. there was nothing "next gen" about it.

the xbox comes out and has way better specs. yet it still struggles because of the name Sony carries and the franchises.

but my god it was microsofts FIRST console. think about that for a second.... how long has nintendo been around?


people put too much faith into sony.
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