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MS and Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray - Page 6

post #201 of 298
The PS3 is absolutely NO threat to standard desktop computers or the Microsoftian Hegemony. Hell it won't even beat Apple.
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post #202 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
The PS3 is absolutely NO threat to standard desktop computers or the Microsoftian Hegemony. Hell it won't even beat Apple.

It would be easier to convince me if you provided evidence to back up your assertions.

The PS3 will meet most people's needs for computing.
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post #203 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
you're not understanding. i know that people regard halo as xbox's savior.

what i was talking about is how poorly halo was recieved during its showing at e3.

Sony's machine (ps2) was never anythign to marvel at. it couldve easily lost that first year to dreamcast if it weren't for the dvd drive. there was nothing "next gen" about it.

the xbox comes out and has way better specs. yet it still struggles because of the name Sony carries and the franchises.

but my god it was microsofts FIRST console. think about that for a second.... how long has nintendo been around?


people put too much faith into sony.

I was never impressed with the X Box. It is slightly better than the PS2 in graphics only, not "way better". Also, even though the PS2 was supposed to be harder to program for than the X Box, most programmers prefered it in the end.

If you look at games that have come out on both, there is no real difference. Programmers won't have a game on one platform look better than on another.

Even for games that are on one or the other there isn't any difference the vast majority of times.

If the X Box had been put out by any other company, it would have been discontinued because of its incredible losses. No other company makes enough profit from its other areas that it could find a reason to support such a loser as the X Box. MS is expected to lose money on the 360 as well.

Both Sony and Nintendo made a profit on their machines and games.

People in the industry expect the PS3 to outsell the 360 even though it will be 8 or more months later than the 360.

Again, it's hard to think of something as being a success if the company making it can lose over $4 billion on it over the few years it's out. If MS didn't make a 70% profit in its OS and Office divisions, it could never sustain the losses.

To me this is a failure. It's a typical monopoly cheat. MS throws vast amounts of money down the drain hoping that it can outlast its competitors. It's done that with Palm. It's hoping to do that here as well, but they make so many mistakes!

They've been told that they MUST have 100% backwards compatibility, as Sony does. But they said that they wouldn't have any. They were criticized severely. Then they said that they would have some. But nobody knows what, or how well they will work. It's a totally different chipset and OS! Sony has continuity

Then they said that they would have a built-in HD. Then they said that they wouldn't. Now it can be added later. Hi def player? At first maybe, then no. But Sony will.

They were claiming that they would have 45 games upon release, now MAYBE 26. Sony will have many more, plus all the PS 2 games to get people started.

It's a mess.
post #204 of 298
For the HD-DVD haters, maybe something to sway you?

No Region codes for HD-DVD

This is a big deal for a lot of people.
post #205 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
It would be easier to convince me if you provided evidence to back up your assertions.

The PS3 will meet most people's needs for computing.

In what way?

You have to turn it into a computer. It's not one out of the box. you need the keyboard and mouse. So, fine, you get them. now what?

Can you use Quicktime, or Windows Medea Player, or Real video? If not, then you've stuck yourself. "Most people" won't want to use something that isn't mainstream.

How about word processors? Or Office, even Student/Teacher Edition? Will it run? That's one of the most popular pieces of software out there?

Music apps? Photo apps? Home movie editing apps such as iMovie?

Digital cameras, will they just hook up? Scanners? Tablets? USB and Firewire hubs? TV tuners? Card readers?

So, how will it work again?

And actually, as you are claiming that it will, you are the one required to supply the evidence, not the one doing the doubting.
post #206 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
For the HD-DVD haters, maybe something to sway you?

No Region codes for HD-DVD

This is a big deal for a lot of people.

That's easy. It can be done for BluRay as well. The codes are embedded in the disks themselves. Just put ALL, and it's done.
post #207 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
For the HD-DVD haters, maybe something to sway you?

No Region codes for HD-DVD

This is a big deal for a lot of people.

I'm not a hater, but this still does nothing for me as I don't buy or have need for DVDs out of my region.
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post #208 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
And actually, as you are claiming that it will, you are the one required to supply the evidence, not the one doing the doubting.

There are plenty of people using Linux, and they seem to be able to handle all of these tasks just fine. The PS3 will also run Linux, and all Sony needs to do is include a few pre-compiled apps, and it would be to their advantage to do so.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06...s_6127219.html

"Since E3, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has been calling the PlayStation 3 an 'entertainment supercomputer' rather than a gaming console."
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post #209 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
That's easy. It can be done for BluRay as well. The codes are embedded in the disks themselves. Just put ALL, and it's done.

I know it is easy to do, but the fact that they wont be included at all is huge. DVD content providers can do ALL now as well, but do they? No, they stick region codes on their disks. Has anyone in the BluRay camp come out and said anything about region codes? I don't think so (if so, I am sure the BluRay supporters would be all over it). So don't brush this off as "no big deal" until BluRay comes out saying something one way or the other.
post #210 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
There are plenty of people using Linux, and they seem to be able to handle all of these tasks just fine. The PS3 will also run Linux, and all Sony needs to do is include a few pre-compiled apps, and it would be to their advantage to do so.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06...s_6127219.html

"Since E3, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has been calling the PlayStation 3 an 'entertainment supercomputer' rather than a gaming console."

Yes, it was fun to port Linux over. But Linux itself has terrible support for commerical standards. Just go to any Linux sites and read the complaints and whining about it. Until the Linux distro leaders are willing to pay for commercial licenses, which is anathma to them, then Linux itself will have sucky support for most things.

Even where there is support for certain software codecs, hardware drivers are something else. there would have to be drivers for the PS2 or 3. Where are the drivers for the PS 2?

Just guessing that Sony would get licenses for popular commercial programs and convince the companies to port them to the PS? MS? No way! Apple? Ha!

Linux? Who cares?

EDIT: Sorry, I just now read the link. It's not very clear, is it? Sony may, or may not, supply a HD with the PS3. So it may, or may not have Linux. If it's on A HD, which Linux distro will it be? It still doesn't answer the driver question, or the compatibility questions I brought up..

Oh, the article is wrong. The 360 does NOT have a HD as standard. It's in the $100 upgrade.
post #211 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
It would be easier to convince me if you provided evidence to back up your assertions.

The PS3 will meet most people's needs for computing.

Nay. PC running Windows are the defacto standard. The burden of proof lies with you. However I'll give you some basic reasons.

1. The Cell processor isn't designed to be a general purpose computer.

2. Open Office has absolutely NO market penetration in business or home.

3. Despite the dreams we all have Microsoft is in no danger of losing their perch anytime soon. In fact with Vista and Office 12 coming I doubt that Apple or Open Office are able to make any serious inroads beyond where they are currently.

Region Encoding

There's really no need for it anymore. Both formats should scrap it. The future is rapidly moving to digital theaters and the ability to do simultaneous movie release. Today you have only so many cannisters of film that can be made and sent out. Digital can be beamed by satellite to equipped theaters wordwide
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post #212 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Even where there is support for certain software codecs, hardware drivers are something else. there would have to be drivers for the PS2 or 3. Where are the drivers for the PS 2?

The PS3 has the advantage of a fixed hardware platform - all of the hardware is the same, and once they write all the drivers that they need, that is the end of the job.

Even just a web browser and plugins by itself in the PS3 would reduce computer sales dramatically.
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post #213 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
I know it is easy to do, but the fact that they wont be included at all is huge. DVD content providers can do ALL now as well, but do they? No, they stick region codes on their disks. Has anyone in the BluRay camp come out and said anything about region codes? I don't think so (if so, I am sure the BluRay supporters would be all over it). So don't brush this off as "no big deal" until BluRay comes out saying something one way or the other.

There is no such thing as being included. It's up to the studios. If they don't do it fine. Personally I don't think it's such a big deal. Even today many releases don't have region encoding. More companies are doing simultaneous release. That's all it was really for anyway.

By the way, region encoding is built into the HD DVD standard, just like BluRay. They made a marketing decision to declare they weren't going to do it.
post #214 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The PS3 has the advantage of a fixed hardware platform - all of the hardware is the same, and once they write all the drivers that they need, that is the end of the job.

Even just a web browser and plugins by itself in the PS3 would reduce computer sales dramatically.

That's all nonsense. The fixed platform is the biggest DISadvantage. As the computing world wizzes by, the PS3 will be left behind.

That's most likely one of the reasons why Apple didn't use it.

Web browsing? Good joke!

You're making a big mistake here in targeting the wrong audience.

The vast number of people you seem to think would like this are those very people who won't or can't afford to spend a lot of money on a computer set up. Those people have small TV's that have poor resolution, contrast, and color for computer use. Why do you think that every other piece of equipment that has ever come out to allow people to browse the internet and use e-mail has failed? Because after they have done it for a week or a month, they have turned it off in disgust.

The people who do have a large hi-rez TV monitor also have a large hi-rez computer monitor connected to their computer.

The only people who are interested in this kind of thing are the hobbyists. How many of them are there? Couple hundred thousand at most?

78% of all households in the US have a computer and more than half of those have two or more. Where is the rest of the market for this after the hobbyists then?
post #215 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Web browsing? Good joke!

We will see. I think that you could put together a compelling package of software on the PS3 that would suit most people's needs. The PS3 will be faster than most current PCs, and we really don't need faster hardware, or greater video resolution ever.
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post #216 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
There is no such thing as being included.

I think Mr Yamada begs to differ:

From the linked article:

Quote:
"[...] HD DVD probably wont contain any region playback controls. Of course theres still that probably in there, but its nice to see someone up there realizes how ridiculous DVD region codes really are.

So it wont contain any region playback controls. Sounds to me like it isn't being included...

Quote:
[B]It's up to the studios. If they don't do it fine. Personally I don't think it's such a big deal./b]

Um, but if it isn't an option, how is it up to the studios? If the ability to differentiate region codes doesn't exists, the studios can slap them on their disks all they want, but the players will just ignore them.

Quote:
Even today many releases don't have region encoding.

Like what movies? All the movies I buy still are region encoded.
post #217 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
I think Mr Yamada begs to differ:

From the linked article:



So it wont contain any region playback controls. Sounds to me like it isn't being included...



Um, but if it isn't an option, how is it up to the studios? If the ability to differentiate region codes doesn't exists, the studios can slap them on their disks all they want, but the players will just ignore them.



Like what movies? All the movies I buy still are region encoded.

You're getting some of this backwards.

It's IN the standard. They meant that they PROBABLY wouldn't do it. But they MIGHT. How is that possible? Because it's IN the standard. They might all AGREE not to do it. I'll bet that the ability to read the codes is still in the chips going in the players. Your own quote doesn't say that they won't do it either you know.

BluRay is the same. It's IN the standard. Might they do it? Sure. Might they not do it? Sure. They just haven't said. What I meant is that if the BluRay association doesn't declare either way, then it would be up to the studios.

I'm not going to look through all my DVD's now, but I have a few without codes.
post #218 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
We will see. I think that you could put together a compelling package of software on the PS3 that would suit most people's needs. The PS3 will be faster than most current PCs, and we really don't need faster hardware, or greater video resolution ever.

Such as?

And from your last sentence, I'm beginning to think that this is a joke post after all.
post #219 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Such as?

And from your last sentence, I'm beginning to think that this is a joke post after all.

Such as a web browser, with full compliment of plug-ins, news reader, email reader, p-to-p function (unlikely), open office, a picture viewer, a video player, along with the game functions.

And no - I was not joking. The resolutions of todays monitors approach the limit of human eyesight, and few people use more than a couple percentage points of the processing power of their computers.

The PS3 is as compelling as a limited computer as the Mac Mini is, and it will be more than 10x faster.
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post #220 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Such as a web browser, with full compliment of plug-ins, news reader, email reader, p-to-p function (unlikely), open office, a picture viewer, a video player, along with the game functions.

And no - I was not joking. The resolutions of todays monitors approach the limit of human eyesight, and few people use more than a couple percentage points of the processing power of their computers.

The PS3 is as compelling as a limited computer as the Mac Mini is, and it will be more than 10x faster.

But just saying "a browser" isn't really showing that one will be supplied. Who is working on one? Which distro of Linux will we supposedly see? Open Ofice won't work on the Cell. Neither will any other program. They have to be ported over. Look at everything Apple had to do to make that possible. No one knows whether Sony has been writing such software. Sony has been known for rather poor software development.

Even if you think that OO will be ported, how long would it take? THe new 2 version isn't even available on the Mac as yet. Neither is ver. 1.1.5! And the Mac certainly has vastly more possible users than the PS3 will have.

It's not just a compile away. Have you seen the compiler? Sony isn't even done with the tools necessary to get games finished.

People who might use this won't be using a computer monitor, as I said. They will be using a TV - just the way ALL PS2's are being used. This will be either in the living room or in a family room, for those who have one. No one is going to buy a cheap 17" monitor to play PS 3 games on. People would laugh them to death.

If you think a crappy TV is going to have high enough resolution, think again.

This is all pie in the sky.
post #221 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Region Encoding

There's really no need for it anymore. Both formats should scrap it. The future is rapidly moving to digital theaters and the ability to do simultaneous movie release. Today you have only so many cannisters of film that can be made and sent out. Digital can be beamed by satellite to equipped theaters wordwide

Simultaneous releases aren't as easy as that.
Scripts have to be translated and approved. Dialog has to be shot, edited and mixed against the M&E stem. Then the Foley has to be shot and mixed.
All this is done in territory.

Then the audio is sent to the studio sound department for the conform and mix to final picture.

Picture may need to be re-worked for different regions (You cannot have headbuts shown in the UK, for example). This would necessitate separate audio stems for each different picture cut and, therefore, different mix sessions.

All of this can take months to coordinate and that's if things go perfectly.
There have been innumerable times where we receive bad elements and then territory has to re-supply.

There are hundreds of issues involved in getting a film to market which is why simultaneous releases won't happen in the near future.
post #222 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
But just saying "a browser" isn't really showing that one will be supplied. Who is working on one? Which distro of Linux will we supposedly see? Open Ofice won't work on the Cell. Neither will any other program. They have to be ported over. Look at everything Apple had to do to make that possible. No one knows whether Sony has been writing such software. Sony has been known for rather poor software development.

Even if you think that OO will be ported, how long would it take? THe new 2 version isn't even available on the Mac as yet. Neither is ver. 1.1.5! And the Mac certainly has vastly more possible users than the PS3 will have.

It's not just a compile away. Have you seen the compiler? Sony isn't even done with the tools necessary to get games finished.

People who might use this won't be using a computer monitor, as I said. They will be using a TV - just the way ALL PS2's are being used. This will be either in the living room or in a family room, for those who have one. No one is going to buy a cheap 17" monitor to play PS 3 games on. People would laugh them to death.

If you think a crappy TV is going to have high enough resolution, think again.

This is all pie in the sky.

1. The difficulties in using the compiler will all be centered around the vector units, the control unit is a regular processor. The vector units would not initially be used by the web browsing (etc) software. This is not very hard stuff, I personally have undertaken much more challanging programming problems than changing the code generation part of a compiler to produce a different opcode set (the hard part of writing a compiler is not the code generation).

2. The port of OO to the mac is done by an open source team with much fewer resources than Sony - and linux->mac is harder than linux->linux.

3. Sony put a browser on their PSP, and you think that they won't put one on their PS3?

4. People will use the PS3 in all kind of configurations - if my computer replacement predictions come true, I will probably buy 4 or 5 of them, and some will be used with 20" or 24" computer flatscreen monitors.

5. Any HDTV that supports 1080p is high enough resolution for computer use (and 1080p will be more and more common into the future, I have a CRT front projector capible of this already, and I bought it for $1400 on ebay).
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post #223 of 298
wow mel where do you get your info from? sony lost billions with the ps2, billions. this is microsofts first launch and it did very well besides japan. no people do not prefer to code for the ps2, they did so cuz of the brand and the popularity.

i dont understand what you consider a dissapointment? xbox is levels above playstation in the online gaming scene. besides what a lot of hardcore single player gamers out there say the online capability is where the future of gaming is headed and microsoft is in the front seat at this point.



if there is one thing i've learned about this industry is that NO ONE really knows what they are doing 100 percent of the time. its apparent from obvious mistakes from every single gaming company from nintendo-microsoft.

a company like nintendo that has been around forever still makes mistakes and you're going to consider the xbox a dissapointment? incredible.

playstation has had 2 successful consoles which (ps2) was very fortunate to come out on top (mainly because of the dvd rom) cuz people quickly forget the problems they had in the beginning of that consoles life cycle.

the one thing i can say is micorsoft hsould have put an HD player in their ssytem. it was dumb not to do it and i really dont know why they didn't (yes it keeps costs down). if it was me i wouldve done the hd-dvd player standard, the harddrive an option



Sony is going to lose HUGE on the ps3. lets not even mention what if blu-ray doesn't go through then they are crushed.


there is a significant amount of time before we can even assume who wins this battle (hd-dvd or blu-ray) anyone can jump the fence at any time. the launch for the 360 can sway key players.




i cant wait to see whats going to come out of 2007
post #224 of 298
I've sold computers for over 10 yrs. The PS3 is NO threat end of story. Things get even harder when you're talking about Vista and TCPA. Linux will get there but slowly.

Building the PS3 up to more than what it really is smacks of blatant foolishness. It's a game console with some extra functions built in. Sony is not an OS vendor nor will you have a fully functional API for the PS3 that would cover much more than web browsing and email.

It's built for highend 3D work and a bit of movie playback. It's not a home computer in the traditional sense.
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post #225 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
1. The difficulties in using the compiler will all be centered around the vector units, the control unit is a regular processor. The vector units would not initially be used by the web browsing (etc) software. This is not very hard stuff, I personally have undertaken much more challanging programming problems than changing the code generation part of a compiler to produce a different opcode set (the hard part of writing a compiler is not the code generation).

2. The port of OO to the mac is done by an open source team with much fewer resources than Sony - and linux->mac is harder than linux->linux.

3. Sony put a browser on their PSP, and you think that they won't put one on their PS3?

4. People will use the PS3 in all kind of configurations - if my computer replacement predictions come true, I will probably buy 4 or 5 of them, and some will be used with 20" or 24" computer flatscreen monitors.

5. Any HDTV that supports 1080p is high enough resolution for computer use (and 1080p will be more and more common into the future, I have a CRT front projector capible of this already, and I bought it for $1400 on ebay).

It has nothing to do with the Linux-Mac. It has to do with the Linux PPC or x86 to Cell.

They did put a browser on the PS2, but we don't know if this will have an HD, and it sounds as though this is a dependent upon that.

The people who woulf be the logical customer wouldn't be buying 4 or 5. They would be doing this because they would be getting a game machine and a computer of sorts in one cheap unit. No 20" or 24" flat screen monitors for them.

Even $1400 is far too expensive for most people. You are technical hobbyest. Most of us on these threads are too, to a greater or lesser extent. Most people can't even change a battery.

I don't suppose that you are here on Appleinsider writing this on your PS2 keyboard? If not, then you are one of those few hobbyests I was talking about who MIGHT want one of those things. You can count the number of people who used the PS2 for this on one hand. I know dozens of people who have one (including us) and none of them have done this.
post #226 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
wow mel where do you get your info from? sony lost billions with the ps2, billions. this is microsofts first launch and it did very well besides japan. no people do not prefer to code for the ps2, they did so cuz of the brand and the popularity.

i dont understand what you consider a dissapointment? xbox is levels above playstation in the online gaming scene. besides what a lot of hardcore single player gamers out there say the online capability is where the future of gaming is headed and microsoft is in the front seat at this point.



if there is one thing i've learned about this industry is that NO ONE really knows what they are doing 100 percent of the time. its apparent from obvious mistakes from every single gaming company from nintendo-microsoft.

a company like nintendo that has been around forever still makes mistakes and you're going to consider the xbox a dissapointment? incredible.

playstation has had 2 successful consoles which (ps2) was very fortunate to come out on top (mainly because of the dvd rom) cuz people quickly forget the problems they had in the beginning of that consoles life cycle.

the one thing i can say is micorsoft hsould have put an HD player in their ssytem. it was dumb not to do it and i really dont know why they didn't (yes it keeps costs down). if it was me i wouldve done the hd-dvd player standard, the harddrive an option



Sony is going to lose HUGE on the ps3. lets not even mention what if blu-ray doesn't go through then they are crushed.


there is a significant amount of time before we can even assume who wins this battle (hd-dvd or blu-ray) anyone can jump the fence at any time. the launch for the 360 can sway key players.




i cant wait to see whats going to come out of 2007

Where do you get yours from?

Sony has made billions on the PS2. Two thirds of their profit has come from it. They have been relying on the PS2 for several years for profits.

Just read any financial journal, or go to Forbes on the web. This is well known.

I don't know anyone who has thought that the games for the X Box were superior in any significant way. Programmers have said that programming on the PS2 was not hard once they got used to it.

Sony's online games have also done much better in numbers of players than anything MS have been doing.

And yes, I say the X Box is a disappointment because MS was expecting to make money with it, and they have lost billions instead.

Can you name even one other company that would still be producing it after having lost over $1 billion in the first year alone? I can't think of any.
post #227 of 298
The only reason Sony is still making money is because of their Playstation division. It has most certainly not been a loss for them. I don't think even Microsoft is a in a net loss position on XBox at this point.


The PS3 (or XBox360 for that matter) is not a competitor for the desktop or laptop PC (including Mac) -- but it is a competitor for the Media Center PC. Microsoft wants that market, and a lot of hardware companies want it to. The PC market pales in comparison to the market of everyone who has a TV but doesn't have the ultimate media center device (i.e. everyone with a TV).

The PC desktop market isn't really growing anymore, it is operating primarily on replacement purchases... and in case you hadn't noticed the motivation to upgrade in the last couple of years has dropped off markedly because the chip companies have hit a clockrate wall and the easy performance wins are coming much slower and much less dramatically. Laptops are selling like crazy because they have become much more compelling with wireless everywhere and decent performing low power CPU & GPUs. I don't see the PC market going away, but its importance is going to be a lot less than it has been in the past.


And as for the fixed hardware configuration of the PS3, this is typically an advantage for the market(s) it is aimed at. There is an interesting feature of the Cell architecture that most people seem to have missed, however: for the first time a game console has a chip architecture that lends itself extremely well to scalability. In 3 years Sony could release an updated PS3 that simply has more vector processors, but remains fully compatible with the existing one. In fact, if done right, software created for the first version will automatically run better on later versions (i.e. 60 fps instead of 30 fps... and if you think all PS3 games will be 60 fps, dream on).
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post #228 of 298
mel teh fact that you'll sit here and tell me that you donjt know anyone who thought xbox games were superior to playstation games is just stating that you obviously just dislike the machine.


how about telling that to the millions who bought halo, splinter cell, max payne, games that couldn't even run on a playstation 2 without incredible load times.

yes you put it perfectly programmers dont mind coding for ps2 after getting used to it.... 4 years? damn thats a long time, i to believe ps2 would be easy to program for after that amount of time haha.


you're words exactly covered what i was saying before about how the PS3 is just showing "hopeful" images of what it wants to do cuz why? programmers have a hard time coding for a hard system at first and get better with time.
post #229 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
I don't think even Microsoft is a in a net loss position on XBox at this point.

I would agree with everything except for that. MS lost $1 billion their last financial year in their games division, attributed almost entirely to the X Box and software.

Actually, to be truthful, last year Sony's games division didn't do that well either, but nothing like that.
post #230 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
mel teh fact that you'll sit here and tell me that you donjt know anyone who thought xbox games were superior to playstation games is just stating that you obviously just dislike the machine.


how about telling that to the millions who bought halo, splinter cell, max payne, games that couldn't even run on a playstation 2 without incredible load times.

yes you put it perfectly programmers dont mind coding for ps2 after getting used to it.... 4 years? damn thats a long time, i to believe ps2 would be easy to program for after that amount of time haha.


you're words exactly covered what i was saying before about how the PS3 is just showing "hopeful" images of what it wants to do cuz why? programmers have a hard time coding for a hard system at first and get better with time.

I admit that I don't play games that much now, but I do have both.

One of the problems that MS has faced is that crossover games (ones that are on both platforms) are almost EXACTLY alike. That's by design. The X Box only games might, at times, be slightly better in some aspects, but not by much. The playability of both systems is about the same.

And programmers have been saying that for several years, not just now. It sounds like you dislike the PS2.

Just like MS was showing "hopeful" much critisized images last year. So, what's new? After all the PS2 outsold the X Box by four to one.

Sony was simply able to get more and better games.
post #231 of 298
mel- you can make statements like "sony sold more" all day long.

you're in an apple forum making statements like that... think about it.


also, again

it was microsofts first console!!!!!!

japenese developers didn't come out in numbers to support the xbox unlike the 360.

the playstation already had a name set for itself. geesh man they even went up against nintendo thats a pretty tough competition and considering that i think the xbox did well.




you're hard to please.
post #232 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
mel- you can make statements like "sony sold more" all day long.

you're in an apple forum making statements like that... think about it.


also, again

it was microsofts first console!!!!!!

japenese developers didn't come out in numbers to support the xbox unlike the 360.

the playstation already had a name set for itself. geesh man they even went up against nintendo thats a pretty tough competition and considering that i think the xbox did well.




you're hard to please.

I realize where we are. But the PS 2 and three, as well as the XBox and the Gamecube and Revolution are all games. Games are better if more people buy them. Why? Because they are buying them because they like them. Not because they have to use them at work. Not because the original PC sold because it had IBM's initials on it.

Sony came from nowhere in the game business. It wasn't first by a long shot, not by 15 years or so. It sold because its games were much better than anything else at the time. The PS1 first sold for $650. It started to do really well after it came down to $500.

The XBox was highly anticipated. Everyone (including me) expected it to just blow the PS2 away. It didn't. It was a little better. It also had Halo. Without that it would have faded away, but that sold enough boxes for developers to become encouraged.

Despite MS saying that there would be 45 games available upon the 360's intro, it's expected that there will be, at most, 26.

But you just can't ignore the fact that it has lost so much money consistently. What would have happened if MS decided to price it and the games they make they way Sony did? That is, to have the games division make money?

Nobody would be buying it.

I'm not denying the numbers sold. I'm sure that BMW could sell a lot more cars if they priced them to match a Chevy or something at that level. But would they? Of course not.

MS knows that the box isn't so much better that they could convince gamers to buy it if it were priced 50% more. MS is subsidizing the people buying this, as well as the games they make. This is the point I'm making. You don't want to look at that.

Nintendo hasn't done that. They make a profit. I wonder what their sales would be if MS didn't sell their machines and games well below cost.

I'm sure that Sony could sell even more of these things if they sold them for $50. The games too.

The same thing seems to be happening again with the PS3, the 360, and the Revolution. Nintendo will price to make a good profit. Sony will price to make a smaller profit, and MS will price so that they lose large amounts of money. Though they have said that they "hope" to break even after the first year. They said that about the first one as well.

It's like Netscape vs Explorer. Explorer didn't do well until they gave it away.

Does that mean that Explorer really did well? It's that nobody can afford to compete with MS when they decide to really go for it. Who knows, maybe Sony and Nintendo will just give up if they start doing less well and then MS will be left. Then they can say that they did it fair and square. It only cost $15 billion in losses.

You're hard to please too.
post #233 of 298
what are u talking about? if you dont "assume" sony will sell well or microsoft will sell well... if you go on the numbers this time around Playstation is actualy going to grossly undersell their system.

you know how much stuff they are trying to pack in that machine? A LOT , maybe more than they shoudl considering they have already cut back what was initially planned.

Microsoft did a lot of things right with the xbox, some of the things they did wrong?

too big of a controller
not enough japenese support


where do you get off saying microsoft doesn't have great games? lets consider this

sports games are covered by both consoles.
first person shooters microsoft owns
racing games a complete tie now since Froza motorsports
rpg the 360 just nabbed final fantasy
metal gear solid was matched up with splinter cell

the only area playstation still holds ground is with those small but unique titles. thats just cuz they've been around longer, created more partnerships.


you want to make an eye to eye comparison? consider hypothetically if microsoft released the xbox at the same time the ps2 came out. head to head with the games they released together at launch microsoft would have trampled the playstation just for the sheer fact of having halo as a launch title.

the ps2 had nothing at launch omg lol. no metal gear solid for a year, no GT for almost 2 years. like i've said before the ps2 did well initially strictly cuz of the dvd drive.

when the xbox launched playstation arleady had its place well set.

EDIT: nintendo F'd up the gamecube. there is virtually NO GAMES for the machine compared to the other 2. sure they had some good ones but the lack of selection really hurt it. profit or not that life cycle is considered a great dissapointment on nintendos part.

http://www.ps3focus.com/archives/127
post #234 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
It has nothing to do with the Linux-Mac. It has to do with the Linux PPC or x86 to Cell.

I can't pretend to be an expert on the Cell, but I am not a "technical hobbiest", but a professional programmer with many years experience (including 4 years of compiler design).

I just don't see what you are going on about. An argument about the marketing of it, sure, or if anyone would use it like I said, sure - but you don't sound like you know what would be an easy or hard programming problem.

Given a compiler (which they will have) and a linux port (which they will also have), I could get the bundle working in a couple months (or a year if you count ergonomically perfect, and graphically pretty). Sony probably has 200-300 programmers like me working on the PS3.

Exlir - the 360 has 17 launch titles, the PS3 has over 100. If anything, the PS3 (from the looks of things so far) will dominate even more this generation than last. My favorite developer (snowblind) is going with the 360, but most are going with both or just the PS3.
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post #235 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I can't pretend to be an expert on the Cell, but I am not a "technical hobbiest", but a professional programmer with many years experience (including 4 years of compiler design).

I just don't see what you are going on about. An argument about the marketing of it, sure, or if anyone would use it like I said, sure - but you don't sound like you know what would be an easy or hard programming problem.

Given a compiler (which they will have) and a linux port (which they will also have), I could get the bundle working in a couple months (or a year if you count ergonomically perfect, and graphically pretty). Sony probably has 200-300 programmers like me working on the PS3.

Exlir - the 360 has 17 launch titles, the PS3 has over 100. If anything, the PS3 (from the looks of things so far) will dominate even more this generation than last. My favorite developer (snowblind) is going with the 360, but most are going with both or just the PS3.

I do know. To say that moving from one hardware platform to another is easy is wrong. For a simple program, fine. but for anything else, no.

I find it hard to believe that Linux or any other platform for the PS3 other than its primary one of gaming, is important enough for Sony to spend the dollars for 200-300 programmers. Even if Sony did pick a popular Linux distro, I doubt they could convince enough people to use it to make third party companies want to spend the time and people to port their programs over.

When Apple has problems with its own developers because 4 million computer sales a year aren't enough, Sony will have to demonstrate that enough people will want the PS3 for use as a computer first. Unless you think that Sony will write or commission these programs itself. They have demonstrated a distinct lack of ability to write software.

You really think that mainstream programs from mainstream companies will be rewritten for the PS3? In two months? You think Sony has compilers to do this for Windows x86 programs, or OS X PPC or x86 programs.

This will be for very inexpert users, no one else other than hobbyests would possibly want it. They (most people) are not ready for a typical Linux piece of software.

The problem here is that it's fairly easy to get Linux to run on the chip if only the main cpu is being used. But it's proven to be much harder to use the SPE's. According to a report that appeared on Anand some time ago (later withdwawn because of copyright issues), games programmers were having problems using more that two SPE's on the Cell, and more than one cpu and two threads on the 360's Xenon. As the main cpu in the Cell is not considered to be great shakes by itself, this would not be all that powerful.

Don't forget that the PS2 was being promoted for the same tasks and it never took off either.

I'm certainly not saying that it can't be done. Of course it can. You are right there. I'm saying that it won't be popular, and that the costs and likelyhood that other companies would work with it are negligable given that.

It's all about sales and usage. The technical matters are of less importance. Anything can be done if the demand is there. It's very doubtful that the demand will be there, and so the technical hurdles become significant.
post #236 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
what are u talking about? if you dont "assume" sony will sell well or microsoft will sell well... if you go on the numbers this time around Playstation is actualy going to grossly undersell their system.

you know how much stuff they are trying to pack in that machine? A LOT , maybe more than they shoudl considering they have already cut back what was initially planned.

Microsoft did a lot of things right with the xbox, some of the things they did wrong?

too big of a controller
not enough japenese support


where do you get off saying microsoft doesn't have great games? lets consider this

sports games are covered by both consoles.
first person shooters microsoft owns
racing games a complete tie now since Froza motorsports
rpg the 360 just nabbed final fantasy
metal gear solid was matched up with splinter cell

the only area playstation still holds ground is with those small but unique titles. thats just cuz they've been around longer, created more partnerships.


you want to make an eye to eye comparison? consider hypothetically if microsoft released the xbox at the same time the ps2 came out. head to head with the games they released together at launch microsoft would have trampled the playstation just for the sheer fact of having halo as a launch title.

the ps2 had nothing at launch omg lol. no metal gear solid for a year, no GT for almost 2 years. like i've said before the ps2 did well initially strictly cuz of the dvd drive.

when the xbox launched playstation arleady had its place well set.

EDIT: nintendo F'd up the gamecube. there is virtually NO GAMES for the machine compared to the other 2. sure they had some good ones but the lack of selection really hurt it. profit or not that life cycle is considered a great dissapointment on nintendos part.

http://www.ps3focus.com/archives/127

I didn't say that the XBox didn't have great games. It does. I said that its games aren't that much better than those for the PS2. Just read around the net and you'll see the consensus.

No one knows what would have happened if they came out at the same time in the long run. MS would probably have done better. But sony outselling them four to one says more than just the lead does.

And yes, the compatability does matter. I've said that many times. It's the XBox people who have been saying that it doesn't. Look at what is happening now. Sony again has virtually 100% compatability. 360 had none. Now, under pressure, it might have some, not much though. So MS is making another mistake - and you have to agree, you gave that as one reason for the PS2's success.

Sony will probably not pile up such a lead this time, but they will lead, delay or not. And again, the Blu-Ray drive will have something to do with it. Another MS mistake, right?

And you're right about Nintendo. They don't have as many games. They also cater to a younger group than the PS2 or XBos does. But they are neck and neck with MS, and make a good profit.

Most avid gamers have both a PS2 and an XBox, so it's fairly even there. But the large majority of people have one of the three. Sony owns more than twice the market as MS and Nintendo combined. We'll see what happens this time.
post #237 of 298
This is beginning to sound like a PS3 vs. Xbox 360 rant.

Back on topic, WB has announced releasing movies in both formats (which was always a distinct possibility)...

link
post #238 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
To say that moving from one hardware platform to another is easy is wrong. For a simple program, fine. but for anything else, no.
...
You really think that mainstream programs from mainstream companies will be rewritten for the PS3? In two months? You think Sony has compilers to do this for Windows x86 programs, or OS X PPC or x86 programs.
...
The problem here is that it's fairly easy to get Linux to run on the chip if only the main cpu is being used. But it's proven to be much harder to use the SPE's.

It might be hard for you, but not for me. I never said anything about windows apps, just nicely wrapped Linux apps - and I already mentioned that the SPEs would not be used (or needed) for this. It would be the work of a single person.

Anyway - forget I mentioned it - but I will laugh at you when it happens.
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post #239 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
If Warner does capitulate then the battle is indeed over as Warner stands to gain significant royalties from HD-DVD just as they did with DVD.

Does this mean I win the bet?
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post #240 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
It might be hard for you, but not for me. I never said anything about windows apps, just nicely wrapped Linux apps - and I already mentioned that the SPEs would not be used (or needed) for this. It would be the work of a single person.

Anyway - forget I mentioned it - but I will laugh at you when it happens.

Really? If you're that good you should be working for Apple or MS.

And I hope that you and the other three people who compute with this are very happy with it.

Laughter is good for you. Just make sure you're looking in the mirror when you do it.
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