or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › MS and Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MS and Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray - Page 2

post #41 of 298
NAB 2005 Apple goes HD

Salient quote:

Quote:
Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standardsBlu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Right there on Apple's Press Release page. We all should know better than to equate an Apple statement with an assumed action. Steve has panned both flash digimusic players and Intel chips and look what's happened.

I wouldn't say that I'm anti BR but I do harbor animosity towards Sony. I love their products but hate their corporate culture which causes them to micromanage copy protection to the point of harming their products. They screwed DAT and Minidisc up and with BD+ they might be going for the hat trick. Most consumers aren't thieves..stop treating them that way.

Blu-Ray= Apple. Over-egineered with technical prowess in some areas and glaring oversights in others.

HD-DVD= Generic PC- Fiscally conservative, does the job and does it for a lower cost.

We all know how this scenario plays out. Blu-Ray is just too expensive. The PS3 isn't due out until mid 2006. HD-DVD hardware has been delayed until Q1 2006. There's plenty of time for MS to create an HD-DVD Xbox and poof there goes the PS3 advantage.

Next lets discuss an area that people are forgetting. HTPC. The ingredients are beginning to come together and soon they will congeal into a powerhouse platform.



Hardware

Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases


Software

Microsoft's Media Center PC and hopefully something close
by Apple if they aren't being dumb.

Hell I'm beginning to think that need for a HD-DVD and Blu-Ray STB player is waning. Imagine slapping in a Blu-Ray and HD-DVD player into a Silverstone HTPC case backed up by a full computer platform. Easily done for under $1500 and you have the ability to play games, DVR, general computing and everything else inbetween on one box. That's where I'm headed folks. All with one HDMI connection to my Pre-Amp and racked power amps. Voila! Viva La Revolutione
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #42 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Hardware

Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases
[/B]

Other than making a formalized standard, I don't see anything special about VIIV except for branding, a marketing campaign and a document that establishes what parts are in a VIIV system. I'm not sure how PCs can be any more "tuned" to multimedia. I would liken it to an HTPC version of Centrino, the parts are good but what makes it successful as basically marketing.

With Vista, I figure HDCP is pretty much a given expectation.

There have been numerous compact case standards over the years, none have really caught on, I don't see what's special about the various BTX form factors that will change that other than just being the latest to come around, assuming it catches.
post #43 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
.....Hell I'm beginning to think that need for a HD-DVD and Blu-Ray STB player is waning. Imagine slapping in a Blu-Ray and HD-DVD player into a Silverstone HTPC case backed up by a full computer platform. Easily done for under $1500 and you have the ability to play games, DVR, general computing and everything else inbetween on one box. That's where I'm headed folks. All with one HDMI connection to my Pre-Amp and racked power amps. Voila! Viva La Revolutione ....

sounds good although hope you don't run into any of that HDCP problemas \ i don't know much about HDCP at the moment but i'm scared

edit:
playing HalfLife2 on a 42" or more 16:9 plasma/lcd would be teh rock !!11!!11
post #44 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
sounds good although hope you don't run into any of that HDCP problemas \ i don't know much about HDCP at the moment but i'm scared

edit:
playing HalfLife2 on a 42" or more 16:9 plasma/lcd would be teh rock !!11!!11

Well it's going to happen. HDMI is coming to the PC. Version 1.2 adds support for 1bit signaling(SACD) and RGP and YUV flavors that allow for computer display support. ATI and NVIDIA are on their way with product.

Quote:
Other than making a formalized standard, I don't see anything special about VIIV except for branding, a marketing campaign and a document that establishes what parts are in a VIIV system.

Agreed. Intel hasn't given much information on it but I do believe they will have more info forthcoming and that ViiV will tie into BTX.

BTX should have better

Thermal characteristics
More logical motherboard placement
Structural improvement
Flexible motherboard sizes beyond FlexATX, MATX and ATX.

I'm sure it's a worthy change. I remember when people complained about ATX. The PC hates change because it costs more money.

BTX will allow PC makers to be more Apple like in their designs however.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #45 of 298
well, hdmi, btx, etc... while i loathe the arrival of HDCP i look forward to what companies like amd, asus, zalman, coolermaster and ati/nvidia bring to the table. while regular pc manufacturers will try to keep cash flow going without having to do to much, the upper-tier companies know that they have to differentiate themselves away from commodity chinese/taiwanese pc companies and "supply innovation" to stay in the game...

an example where this comes together is the amd-nforce4-asus8n-SLI-premium motherboard which has passive cooling throughout the motherboard (except of course for the cpu heatsink+fan) but in this case northbridge and southbridge cooling is quiet `n cool.

so btx and hdmi will give these companies a chance to innovate and drive adoption at the same time, if they focus on the stuff consumers are after: a faster, cooler, quiter, easier, richer experience.

of course, increased use of copper, liquid cooling, and amd/intel high performance/watt ratios should make for an interesting scenario.

what's fascinating here is apple is going to sit on the sidelines, watch how the market plays out, and use the very same components that all these other cats (intel, asus, etc) develop and put a shine and polish and take all of them to skool in the meantime we'll all be here whining about how we can make the same stuff for half the price ourselves, how the iHome is only updated twice a year, or how the iHome may suddenly be upgraded for the same price without one knowing....
post #46 of 298
A few random thoughts.

1. Cost:
Blu-ray: $400 player (PS3) + let's say $35 per movie
HD-DVD: $1,000 player + let's say $30 per movie

2. Apple shipped HD-DVD support in May... but the HD-DVD spec changes every month. So those discs created with DVDSP probably won't play in real HD-DVD players.

3. BD-J vs. iHD: You can compile XML+JS into Java, but not vice versa.

Having said that, I don't care who wins any more; the two formats are too similar.
post #47 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
sounds good although hope you don't run into any of that HDCP problemas \ i don't know much about HDCP at the moment but i'm scared

Just remember two things:

- do the research before buying
- if you don't like it, don't buy it because it encourages them to make more

The way I see it, people who will be hit hardest by HDCP are the totally law-abiding, paying consumers and TV watchers who will one program at a time be denied timeshifting, recording, replaying *anything*. The content owners will milk these folks for money as long as someone pays.

In contrast, copyright infringing content is just pixels and sound, so HDCP has no way of recognizing it, and the peglegged gentleman-adventurers of the Internet are not affected in any shape or form.

The sooner we see reasonably priced HDCP-noHDCP adapters (made with the same HDCP codes than most popular TV's to make bans impossible), the better. Some adapters turned up in Germany already, but they're 350e apiece.
post #48 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
[Next lets discuss an area that people are forgetting. HTPC. The ingredients are beginning to come together and soon they will congeal into a powerhouse platform.

Hardware

Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases


Software

Microsoft's Media Center PC

I still don't think that Media Center PCs will be a big hit.

I shudder whenever I see some of the new Media Center PCs. They consist of several hardware parts from different vendors assembled by Dell, HP or other PC makers.

And why do we need a full version of Windows underneath with some Media Center software tagged on? What about virus, spyware and so on? The underlying tech is too complex for the average user.

They are not even cheap and should at most be compared to other all-in-one home theater solutions.

For the same money as some of the Media Center PCs I've seen I can buy a much better amp and a much better DVD player with a hard drive (let's say from Denon). They don't need to be restarted and they don't suddenly crash - they just work.

It's a shame that HAVI seems to have gone nowhere, but instead of making a Media Center copy, Apple should instead introduce a video version of AirPort Express, where you can see you photos, watch your movies and control iTunes on your TV using a remote.

A future iTVS will fit in there too.

That's the big difference between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft will try to shoehorn Windows into everything and Apple will focus on hardware not necessarily relying on Mac OS X.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #49 of 298
Tom's hardware ran a nice roundup of the 6 reasons Microsoft and Intel went for HD-DVD.

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html
post #50 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sloanlo
Tom's hardware ran a nice roundup of the 6 reasons Microsoft and Intel went for HD-DVD.

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html

Hmm...and here is Blu-Ray's response...

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4135071&EDATE=
post #51 of 298
There goes some of your arguments HD-DVD fans...

hybrid disc...gone
disc capacity...gone
interactivity...gone
managed copy...gone
HD-DVD possibly winning...gone

Thanks for coming out...
post #52 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by marzetta7
There goes some of your arguments HD-DVD fans...

hybrid disc...gone
disc capacity...gone
interactivity...gone
managed copy...gone
HD-DVD possibly winning...gone

Thanks for coming out...

Hybrid disc - equal
Disc Capacity - HD-DVD wins (NO 50G BRD's at launch)
interactivity - HD-DVD wins. As a seasoned DVD author I can tell you that the facilities in the HD-DVD are an easily understood dream for somebody like me. The BRD's Java implementation is an absolute bloody nightmare and I want nothing to do with it.
Managed copy - equal
Cost of new BR pressing plant - millions
Cost of HD-DVD plant conversion - thousands

From a commercial point of view I want to be authoring HD content discs as soon and as cheaply as possible. This is only going to be viable with HD-DVD.

I think both systems will survive in the marketplace but I believe that just the same as with Beta and DAT, BlueRay will become a professional video/data archiving format whereas HD-DVD will be the high-street winner.
post #53 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by marzetta7
There goes some of your arguments HD-DVD fans...

hybrid disc...gone
disc capacity...gone
interactivity...gone
managed copy...gone
HD-DVD possibly winning...gone

Thanks for coming out...

I wish the Blu-Ray association had addressed the cost issue. I really can't say cost of upgrading the production lines is really an issue, $2M for a production line that would probably press billions of discs is pocket change, and well worth it for the disc capacity increase.

They really didn't say enough about the MS/Intel claims of problems producing dual layer BRDs either.
post #54 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by vinney57
Hybrid disc - equal
Disc Capacity - HD-DVD wins (NO 50G BRD's at launch)
interactivity - HD-DVD wins. As a seasoned DVD author I can tell you that the facilities in the HD-DVD are an easily understood dream for somebody like me. The BRD's Java implementation is an absolute bloody nightmare and I want nothing to do with it.
Managed copy - equal
Cost of new BR pressing plant - millions
Cost of HD-DVD plant conversion - thousands

From a commercial point of view I want to be authoring HD content discs as soon and as cheaply as possible. This is only going to be viable with HD-DVD.

I think both systems will survive in the marketplace but I believe that just the same as with Beta and DAT, BlueRay will become a professional video/data archiving format whereas HD-DVD will be the high-street winner.

Did you read the above link?? My emphasis-

Quote:
Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE. This is 67% more than HD DVD's 30GB ROM capacity and 150% more than its recordable storage capacity - a critical issue for computer users.
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
post #55 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by KidRed
Did you read the above link?? My emphasis-

And then read this article

From the article:

Quote:
HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and its well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs.

So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?
post #56 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by marzetta7
Hmm...and here is Blu-Ray's response...

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4135071&EDATE=

That's not Blu-Rays response that some marketing boob from HP. They conveniently left out a lot of information.

Quote:
They really didn't say enough about the MS/Intel claims of problems producing dual layer BRDs either.

You're right. MS and Intel aren't refuting that 50GB DL isn't a part of the initial BD spec. They're saying that it's unlikely that there will be any content that actually uses the discs due to manufacturing difficulties thus a "working" 30GB DL HD-DVD is larger than the 25GB SL BDROM disc that they see being the only disc being used for movies.

My guess is that 30GB DL HD-DVD proves to be much easier to manufacture than 50GB DL BDROM. We'll see what happens but I don't see many pressing plants jumping up and down with glee over Blu-Ray costs.

Quote:
So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?

Count me in with the replicators and other industry vets who are looking at Blu-Ray and forcasting a debacle coming.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #57 of 298
oh no... another piece of thingy for fanboys to fill up forums about

my 2 cents though since we ARE on the topic is that HD-DVD seems to have a lot of movie (read: content is king) studios lined up. but that's just one piece of the pizzle... i mean puzlle... um i mean... puzzle.
post #58 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
my 2 cents though since we ARE on the topic is that HD-DVD seems to have a lot of movie (read: content is king) studios lined up. but that's just one piece of the pizzle... i mean puzlle... um i mean... puzzle.

Both sides seem to have equal numbers of movie studios behind them, and I don't think Sony/MGM's catalog should be taken lightly.
post #59 of 298
here's bluray*:
20th Century Fox
Buena Vista Home Entertainment
MGM Studios
Sony Pictures Entertainment
The Walt Disney Company

here's hd-dvd*:
Buena Vista Home Entertainment
New Line Cinema
Paramount Pictures
The Walt Disney Company
Universal Studios
Warner Bros


hmmm... okay, so disney is on both camps...
so Fox, Sony and MGM is formidable but NewLine, Paramount, Universal, and WarnerBros bring quite a bit to the table.

the winner will be those that make bluray-hddvd combo-drives


*from:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/
post #60 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
hmmm... okay, so disney is on both camps...
so Fox, Sony and MGM is formidable but NewLine, Paramount, Universal, and WarnerBros bring quite a bit to the table.

Yes, they do, but something I read several months ago said that Sony/CTS/MGM and Fox combined account for over 50% of the DVD market in terms of copies sold and in terms of number of titles available.

Quote:

the winner will be those that make bluray-hddvd combo-drives

I'm hoping the matter will be settled before then.

My main interest in the format is not in the movies but recordables. I'd prefer to have a large capacity without resorting to a second layer, because I really don't trust dual layer optical recordable media yet. Though one thing left out of the exchanges is that there is a dual layer (re)writable standard currenty in BRD, but not really in HD-DVD.

I also want high definition video as well on the same format rather than splitting BRD for backups and HD-DVD for the set-top box, so I'm hoping the issues with BRD are fixed.
post #61 of 298
yeah i hope they sort out this mess too, although right now where i am living DVDs cost $60 a piece in local currency so high defs will be about $100 a piece initially.... with a rather limited title selection. so i've got one or two years

yeah i see your dilemma with the recording side. for me, the viewing the titles side, fox and sony has a good range of blockbusters plus tv shows from their current 720p cable line-up. but new line has lord of the rings, wb has matrix, etc... so in terms of seeing those big highdef blockbusters yeah i hope they can standardise on one format.

but fair points mate, i'm just looking at my resident evil 1 dvd (superbit) and that's columbia/tristar - which is sony. hmm....
post #62 of 298
There are several markets in play here; its not going to be straight fight to the finish. At least half of the pro video market use Sony products for shooting and they will end up using BluRay by default as that's where Sony is going. Similarly BR discs will in the fullness of time make a very good case as an archival format. For small video/DVD production shops such as myself, of which there are thousands, BR is a complex and expensive way to author (or rather will be as you can't actually do it yet), whereas HD-DVD provides a sensible progression from DVD.

The critical market is of course home video. The secret to this is whoever actually starts to sell discs in real numbers. I think the alignment of particular studios to particulars formats is irrelevant in the long term. Hollywood is not really in the loyalty game when money is involved and if one format takes off the studios will move swiftly to colonise with straight faces and "shareholder value" on their lips. I think HD-DVD is the likely winner in this scenario.
post #63 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by vinney57
There are several markets in play here; its not going to be straight fight to the finish. At least half of the pro video market use Sony products for shooting and they will end up using BluRay by default as that's where Sony is going. Similarly BR discs will in the fullness of time make a very good case as an archival format. For small video/DVD production shops such as myself, of which there are thousands, BR is a complex and expensive way to author (or rather will be as you can't actually do it yet), whereas HD-DVD provides a sensible progression from DVD.

Is it possible for someone (like Apple) to get their authoring software to handle that complexity, or do you already know you *will need* to wade into scripting and manually tweaking the disk?
post #64 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by vinney57
I think HD-DVD is the likely winner in this scenario.

Even if Blu-ray went away, I don't really see how HD-DVD can make a market for itself in a market where they have to compete with regular DVD. I think that the players will need to sell in significant numbers for several years before it is worth while making software to play on them. HD-DVD has no driver to get the installed base up, and Blu-ray does.

Until there are a significant number of players out there, making a HD-DVD will be like making a newly pressed classical LP (i.e. lucky to sell a couple of thousand copies). Look at SACD sales to see what I mean.

Most people just don't need HD-DVD or Blu-ray either. Blu-ray will eventually catch on because it will be in everybodies PS3, so eventually people will start buying Blu-ray disks.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #65 of 298
Originally posted by vinney57
Hollywood is not really in the loyalty game when money is involved and if one format takes off the studios will move swiftly to colonise with straight faces and "shareholder value" on their lips...



Excellent call mate. Paramount just announced that they're going to go both ways. Those sluts...!
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...a/12801241.htm

If Sony pulls off the PS3 really well they'll have a big stick to beat HD-DVD with...
"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-ray in PlayStation 3," said Thomas Lesinski, president of Paramount Pictures, Worldwide Home Entertainment."
post #66 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Even if Blu-ray went away, I don't really see how HD-DVD can make a market for itself in a market where they have to compete with regular DVD. I think that the players will need to sell in significant numbers for several years before it is worth while making software to play on them. HD-DVD has no driver to get the installed base up, and Blu-ray does.

Until there are a significant number of players out there, making a HD-DVD will be like making a newly pressed classical LP (i.e. lucky to sell a couple of thousand copies). Look at SACD sales to see what I mean.

Most people just don't need HD-DVD or Blu-ray either. Blu-ray will eventually catch on because it will be in everybodies PS3, so eventually people will start buying Blu-ray disks.

Oh I have to agree. I don't think there is any partciular mass desire for home HD at this point. The iPod wins out against SACD and AudioDVD as the listening choice of the masses and there is a lesson to be learned.

From a professional point of view however we are already using HD and that content needs to be disseminated somehow; HD-DVD looking to be the easiest option at the moment.

When does the PS3 come to market and when will there be HD content for it? More to the point whene will there be a critical mass of 1080 TV's out there that can actually notice the HD difference?
post #67 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
Is it possible for someone (like Apple) to get their authoring software to handle that complexity, or do you already know you *will need* to wade into scripting and manually tweaking the disk?

Well that's a very good question.

Apple has a good Java team and I sure they will be trying to provide this sort of functionality in future versions of DVD Studio Pro. With what urgency really depends on how things pan out. I am sure there are half a dozen major authouring companies in LA and London who are at this moment getting their heads around the whole BR Java implementaion in anticipation of charging $100,000 per disc but I'm not in that league unfortunately and can't justify the effort.
post #68 of 298
The ironic thing here is that current DVD media is perfectly capable of holding an entire HD movie... so long as a more aggressive compression algorithm is used.

Such codecs exist and are already widely popular with computer users. You can already buy $200 players capable of playing HD material.

The hold up is, hollywood wants better copy prevention technology. Otherwise, consumers would already have their hands on HD movies.

Joe public could care less how the HD is delivered.

But hollywood has somehow convinced us that HD movies require completely new and needlessly expensive players.
post #69 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by vinney57
Oh I have to agree. I don't think there is any partciular mass desire for home HD at this point. The iPod wins out against SACD and AudioDVD as the listening choice of the masses and there is a lesson to be learned.

From a professional point of view however we are already using HD and that content needs to be disseminated somehow; HD-DVD looking to be the easiest option at the moment.

When does the PS3 come to market and when will there be HD content for it? More to the point whene will there be a critical mass of 1080 TV's out there that can actually notice the HD difference?

At some point, there will be a critical mass of HDTV sets, people are buying them now. There will also be a critical mass of PS3s much sooner than that.

Content providers will gradually ramp up production of HDTV material as the market space gets larger.

But the reality facing HD-DVD is grim. There is no reason for anyone but really rich folks to buy one any time soon, and nobody will provide movies for such a small market. It is a chicken and egg situation that Blu-ray has found a way out of and HD-DVD has not.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #70 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
And then read this article

From the article:



So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?

Well, it's over now. Paramount is now backing BRD AND now on the fence Universal AND possibly Warners supporting Blu-Ray...
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
post #71 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by dfiler
The ironic thing here is that current DVD media is perfectly capable of holding an entire HD movie... so long as a more aggressive compression algorithm is used.

Compression is a very variable thing, especially with four-dimensional video compression. Personally, I don't think MPEG2 is good enough -- from a perspective of output quality -- to be used in action movies. MPEG4 doesn't seem like it will help much, although I sure it won't hurt.

The thing is, compression algorithms that are more aggressive than MPEG4 generally sacrifice quality quite a bit. The way they cut the most space is by omitting vast regions of frequency content, or by reducing the number of reference frames (I-frames in MPEG lingo) and those doesn't help picture quality.
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
post #72 of 298
Which is all well and good... but the fact remains that HD movies can be put on DVDs today and played in relatively cheap DVD players.

This already exists! I watch HD rips in my home theater all the time. Simply compress an HDTV rip into a codec of your choice and you're good to go with a $200 player.

Granted, I would really love to have higher capacity discs. But lack of capacity is not the reason why we don't have HD movies.

Hollywood's desire for copy prevention technologies... that's the only reason why we aren't already watching HD movies off of DVDs.

It is important to remember this when looking at the blu-ray/hd-dvd battle. Adequate technology isn't the hold up and has little to do with determining which format will eventually prevail.
post #73 of 298
Quote:
But the reality facing HD-DVD is grim. There is no reason for anyone but really rich folks to buy one any time soon, and nobody will provide movies for such a small market. It is a chicken and egg situation that Blu-ray has found a way out of and HD-DVD has not

complete and utter BS. The tenousness of your point is too evident. You're basing everything on a game player changing the balance. What if the PS3 causes other manufactuers to quit making good BR hardware? What if people buy a game player to ...newsflash..play games??? It's pretty obvious that Microsoft could easily and most likely will choose to utilize HD-DVD in the near enough future.

Just answer me this one question. How is Blu-Ray going to win against a cheaper competitor that has every bit of the same quality? History shows that it is "your" scenario which is grim.

Kidred

I think you'll see more studios decide to support both formats. It won't cost them much more to do so and they are indeed in the content providing business. Paramount isn't switching to Blu-Ray but rather deciding to support Blu-Ray as well. I think this is smart...I applaud Paramounts actions and would like this to stop being an religious partisan issue. Let the market decide.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #74 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Just answer me this one question. How is Blu-Ray going to win against a cheaper competitor that has every bit of the same quality? History shows that it is "your" scenario which is grim.

Blu-ray drives and disks will be cheaper, because they will sell 100x as much hardware and software as HD-DVD. High volume will drive costs down with Blu-ray, but not with HD-DVD.

Forget about Blu-ray - tell me how HD-DVD can beat out regular old style DVD. Blu-ray is making an end run around the problem, but if Blu-ray died tomorrow, HD-DVD would still fail.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #75 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Blu-ray drives and disks will be cheaper, because they will sell 100x as much hardware and software as HD-DVD. High volume will drive costs down with Blu-ray, but not with HD-DVD.

Forget about Blu-ray - tell me how HD-DVD can beat out regular old style DVD. Blu-ray is making an end run around the problem, but if Blu-ray died tomorrow, HD-DVD would still fail.


The economies of scale arguement gone wrong. Why are all the industry vets withing the pressing industry refuting your claims? I don't know why it's not sinking in with some of you.

HD-DVD upgrades to a plant at 1 tenth the cost of a new BD line. DL HD-DVD have already been mass produced by companies like Memory Tech.

HD-DVD would not fail..you have absolutely no information to backup your statements other than pithy wishing.

Paramount is doing the right thing for consumers...will the Blu-Ray studios care enough about their consumers to do the same?
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #76 of 298
That is not an answer to the most important part of my post. How can HD-DVD get market share away from DVD? DVD is good enough for most folks.

I can't think of any reason for Joe Sixpack (and on up into the upper classes, except for videophiles) to buy a HD-DVD player.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #77 of 298
Quote:

Kidred

I think you'll see more studios decide to support both formats. It won't cost them much more to do so and they are indeed in the content providing business. Paramount isn't switching to Blu-Ray but rather deciding to support Blu-Ray as well. I think this is smart...I applaud Paramounts actions and would like this to stop being an religious partisan issue. Let the market decide. [/B]

I agree, Warner & Universal may follow suit and publicly support BRD. However, you have to question the motive behind the switch from supporting one format to safely supporting both-

Quote:
Several execs in each camp believe the Paramount announcement to publish in both formats, which is the direction Warner has been leaning for the past week or two (with a similar announcement expected this week), is simply a temporary face-saving strategy and that ultimately all studios will shift completely over to Blu-ray by launch time next spring.
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
All Your PCs Are Belong To Trash
Reply
post #78 of 298
Originally posted by KidRed
I agree, Warner & Universal may follow suit and publicly support BRD. However, you have to question the motive behind the switch from supporting one format to safely supporting both-


hmmm yeah who knows what goes on in movie execs heads? dukes of hazzard remake with jessica simpson?? house of wax remake with paris hilton???

anyway IMHO all that needs to happen is Warner and Universal announcing dual-support bluray/hddvd and that's a major coup for the bluray camp, because their roster will then be:
Fox, Disney, Warner, Universal, Paramount, Sony, ColumbiaTristar, MGM. a formidable roster.

but of course it could also go the other way if say Fox went HDDVD, then that would leave SonyColumbiaTristar/MGM(?) as the only BluRay-specific studio.
post #79 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
That is not an answer to the most important part of my post. How can HD-DVD get market share away from DVD? DVD is good enough for most folks.

I can't think of any reason for Joe Sixpack (and on up into the upper classes, except for videophiles) to buy a HD-DVD player.


Once the market within the next 5 years starts getting flooded with cheaper chinese-made LCDs and plasma TVs, thinner, bigger, better, brighter, sharper, etc, etc, and prices come down, high-def will truly start to reach Joe Sixpack.... some people have gone so far as to say the switch from analog standard def to say digital 1080p high def will be like going from black and white tv to color tv.
post #80 of 298
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
HD-DVD upgrades to a plant at 1 tenth the cost of a new BD line. DL HD-DVD have already been mass produced by companies like Memory Tech.

All arguments that deal with equipment costs are very speculative. No one has released real numbers, as far as I know, so there's no real cost bearing. It's also uncertain if the difference in line costs makes much difference, particularly when considering how a new line figures into accounting versus an old line that has been retrofitted. I think you should get off the point of line costs, since it doesn't seem like a big deal to me, given that I know how a $2M RFID transponder assembly line amortizes while selling much lower cost units. To boot, only the big players will be making HD discs for the first phase, so it will probably take a longer time for the line cost issue to play out than it will for the player market.

Hence, a bigger deal is making a cheaper player.
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Future Apple Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › MS and Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray