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post #41 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
In this case, I have three other sources that confirm that Volvo is in the middle of the pack reliability-wise, while Acura is on top of the pack.
(1) JD Power
(2) Lots of observing of Volvo owner's forums and lots of observing of Acura owner's forums.
(3) Discussions with lots of people who have owned Volvos, and lots of people who have owned Hondas/Acuras.

Sure, there are some Honda/Acura lemons out there. And there are some Volvos that run forever and a day with only scheduled maintenance. But I've run into a LOT more Volvo owners than Honda/Acura owners who have mentioned problems with their electronics or their power equipment sometime during the vehicle's life.

As for reviews of other things besides reliability (ie handling, ride quality, interior quality, et cetera)--Consumer Reports is terrible. I agree 100% there. My assessment of these cars is based on my first-hand experiences test-driving them, though I've also been known to read Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and Road & Track.

Thats the way to go. Talk to people who have actually owned the cars.
Now, Honda and Toyota are probably at the top reliability wise, but if Volvo owners have had minor problems then CR would have panned the car because they dont care if they are minor or not.
But you are researching the right way. I also suggest going to www.epinions.com
post #42 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
I've test-driven one. The interior is dang ugly, and the exterior isn't much better. And except for the wheel, which was nice-feeling for a plastic wheel, the interior felt really, really cheap.

If Chevy put out that car they would be getting reemed a new one by the automotive 'press'. But because its a Honda I hear hardly a criticizm, if any at all.
Can you imagine if GM came out with Scion? They would be ripped to shreds. Since Toyota built them? No problem.
Intruments in center of dash in the Saturn Ion? "What were they thinking!?"
Instruments in center of dash in Scions? "Its not so bad"

The press is so biased its not funny.
Not to say American cars can't improve but there isn't as much difference as people think, if at all.
Do people know the large Chevy Impala gets over 30 MPG highway?
Do people know that Honda and Toyota lied about the MPG their cars get?
Perception
post #43 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
I think Consumer Reports has the largest privately-owned car testing facility in the states. Their reliability reports are based on people reporting all problems they have had with particular cars to the organization. other than that, they are the only major tester who doesn't allow cars to use their ratings as a basis for advertising, so they are clearly not biased.

Just because Consumer Reports gives your car bad reliability/whatever ratings, however, doesn't mean that you're not allowed to still like your car.

Complaints against them always just seem like sour apples to me.

Consumer Reports has always been biased against domestic cars. They have a rep for it.
You can read a review in CR ripping apart, say, the Chevy Colorado.
Then I pick up an issue of Motor Trend and they praise it.
Who would you believe?
Car people do not work for CR.
post #44 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
If you are an expert in a particular area, look at their reports from that area and you will see why people dislike them.

I look at their stereo ratings, and see ratings written by fools.

I always find those the funniest.
They recommend an inexpensive SONY stereo or Panasonic.
They are pure garbage to anyone who knows about them
The only low end Hi-Fi worth a damn are Harmon-Kardan, Denon, Onkyo, and Marantz.
NAD is the best of the lot and not much more expensive but CR has never heard of them!
post #45 of 93
are we talking standard trans or auto

the t5 with auto, select shift is a total hoot to drive that turbo doesn't require shifting your brains out can't beat turbo broad torque with a standard it would be sweeeeeet

you may need a review from an enthusists mag. volvo give free service first 36kk miles, the audi a4 also a hoot is free everything for 4 years including bulbs an wiper blades, brakes everything (great service) my wife (i) takes the audi a6 every 10k miles and they changed everything--the best i have ever had (better than lexus)

what's the torque steer of each with fwd?? (tsx, volvo) i haven't driven either with fwd
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post #46 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Consumer Reports has always been biased against domestic cars. They have a rep for it.
You can read a review in CR ripping apart, say, the Chevy Colorado.
Then I pick up an issue of Motor Trend and they praise it.
Who would you believe?
Car people do not work for CR.

i buy reliability and safety--oh and the car mags don't make a mistake--wasn't the volare car of the year---yea they like it for 15 minutes. live with the car. look at jd powers long term ownership and mag LONG TERM TESTS. take a look at msn auto. look at resale values some cars with 60k have no value--honda's with 250k still have value. good cars tend to have good reviews across the board. you can also use edmunds (i did ) and read consumer reviews. anyone can like the car the first week. live with someone and live with a car. see the car after a crash. it takes a while. did i like my m3 convertible???sure untill the service dept could fix a sharp sqeek in the clutch-= service matters --A LOT.
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post #47 of 93
oops double post sorry
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post #48 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
volvo give free service first 36kk miles

It was 45K miles, but no longer - they discontinued this in the 2005 model year.
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post #49 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
The press is so biased its not funny.
Not to say American cars can't improve but there isn't as much difference as people think, if at all.
Do people know the large Chevy Impala gets over 30 MPG highway?
Do people know that Honda and Toyota lied about the MPG their cars get?
Perception

I think you're getting carried away here. Remember that the EPA, not the automotive press, is the most reputable source for fuel mileage. Anyone who reads Consumer Reports knows that the Chevy Impala gets 21mpg city, 32mph highway with the 3.4 liter V6, and 20mpg city, 30mpg highway with the 3.8 liter V6.

The EPA, not Honda and Toyota Corporations, is responsible for the fuel economy numbers on Honda and Toyota's web pages. So if they're lying, they have the United States federal government in cahoots with them.

Quote:
You can read a review in CR ripping apart, say, the Chevy Colorado.
Then I pick up an issue of Motor Trend and they praise it.

In all fairness, Car & Driver ranked the Colorado dead last when compared to the Dodge Dakota, Toyota Tacoma, Honda Ridgeline, and Nissan Frontier. So CR isn't the only outlet that criticizes that truck.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=9470

Also, you say Consumer Reports bashes every American vehicle? How about these CR rankings?

Buick Park Avenue: Recommended
Cadillac CTS: Best Buy
Cadillac DeVille: Recommended
Cadillac Escalade: Recommended
Chevy Corvette: Best Buy
Chevy Silverade: Best Buy
Chevy Tahoe/Suburban: Best Buy
Chrysler 300: Best Buy
Chrysler Crossfire: Recommended
Chrysler PT Cruiser: Best Buy
Chrysler Town & Country: Best Buy
Dodge Caravan: Best Buy
Dodge Dakota: Recommended
Dodge Durango: Recommended
Dodge Magnum: Best Buy
Dodge Ram: Recommended
Ford Escape: Best Buy
Ford Expedition: Best Buy
Ford Explorer: Recommended
Ford F-150: Best Buy
Ford Focus: Recommended
Ford Ranger: Recommended
GMC Sierra: Best Buy
GMC Yukon/Denali: Recommended
Jeep Liberty: Recommended

I'm sorry that CR bashed the Chevy Colorado, but that doesn't mean that they're in a conspiracy to demean all American cars.

Quote:
an you imagine if GM came out with Scion? They would be ripped to shreds. Since Toyota built them? No problem.

Consumer Reports didn't label either the Scion xA or the xB "recommended."
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post #50 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
are we talking standard trans or auto

Manual transmission.

Torque steer was noticeable, but not bad, on the TSX. It should have been more noticeable on the S40 T5, but I didn't notice any at all. And I certainly didn't notice any on the S40 2.4i. Admittedly, I didn't have the chance to drive the cars back-to-back on the same roads.
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post #51 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
You don't think maybe you're being just a teensy-weensy bit touchy?

(It was just advice, I'm not trying to divine your motives. Although, when you find yourself going into debt for wants and not needs, you should be honest as to why.)

No, I'm not being touchy. You're acting like Tyler Durden. You accused me of hubris (though I think you meant vanity or materialism) because I was asking for advice between two cars.

Why am I willing to go into debt here?
(1) Because it's a want AND a need, not just a want. My current car, a 1999 Civic coupe, is too small and is not nearly as safe as I would like. I need two more doors, an upgrade in room, and major upgrade in safety.
(2) Because driving is my main hobby. I want a nice car because it's fun to drive, not to impress others. Do you have hobbies? Or do you only buy what you "need" in the hunter-gatherer sense of the word?
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post #52 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
According solely to the information you gave here about your own evaluation of these two cars (I know little about either model) as well as about your own preferences, the Volvo.

That's the way I'm leaning.
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post #53 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Not to say American cars can't improve but there isn't as much difference as people think, if at all.

No - American cars really do suck. I will never forgive Dodge for the multiple transmission failures and stuff falling off of my 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan. On top of that, it depriciated from 31K down to 4K in 4 years/96K miles - My honda odyssey is so much better I don't know how Dodge can sell any minivans.

I recently drove a new Lincoln town car - total piece of crap.

The big 3 spend all their time worrying about their built up pension liabilities and union concessions. The interiors are crap, the drive is crap (except for a very few cars), and the cars fall apart.
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post #54 of 93
the market works, cars of value have well value....why has honda, toy, etc made inroads in so called "american cars" quality, quality quality--as loans are streatched to 3-4-5-6-7 years you need something that will last with low ownership costs one of the most is the depreciation. if the "american" car companies stopped producing rent a car quality to keep their lines running therefore the union contracts satisfied, then they can focus on quality. after being burned by so called "american" cars. people and myself say hey there is nowhere on my 1040 that says donation to "american car comp" so it comes out of my pocket. i/ consumers need to look 4-5 years down the road. i've had enough cars that i get tired of going back to the dealer on my time/ which is money to me, to fix a mess the manufacturer can't or won't. why did i buy a lexus ls430--because when i test drove a 3 year old car with 50k miles (that's all they had to test drive close to the newest model)i was so impressed i said, hey this will be me in 3 years, this car holds it's value and hassle free. gee whiz ---mine was.
we should make a list of the "american" cars and where they are produced. that will open many a consuemrs eyes. my attitude when i suggested my brother buy a honda--i said it uses US steel and employs a US worker--he bought the car and had it 12 trouble free years. soooo this notion of "american" is corp propaganda


now not all honda and toyotas are hassle free, e.g. honda and it's road noise, trans failures and sliding door major problems--took a redesign and 3-4 years to fix, and lets talk about sludge in toy v6 engines for YEARS. but it's continuous quality improvement.US companies can do it, but they have to have the mind set to do it., great example was hyundai--so ford, chevy, and chrysler CAN IF THEY CHOOSE TO
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post #55 of 93
Sorry... I meant torque steer, not torque.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
Not necessarily true.

I am considering both the Volvo S40 2.4i (cheaper than the TSX) and the Volvo S40 T5 (more expensive than the TSX).

The TSX and the 2.4i make equal torque (though the TSX makes 35 more horsepower). The T5 makes a lot more torque (230 versus 170 ft-lbs), though barely more horsepower than the TSX.

\
post #56 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No - American cars really do suck. . . .

I think an automotive journalist put it best with:

"In these homogenous automotive times, the ethnic motorcar has become seriously blurred. For German precision and reliability, we buy Japanese; for Japanese thrift at the cost of style, we buy from Detroit; and for Detroit pizazz and over-the-top performance, we go to the Germans."

The review was for a maserati.
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post #57 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I think an automotive journalist put it best with:

"In these homogenous automotive times, the ethnic motorcar has become seriously blurred. For German precision and reliability, we buy Japanese; for Japanese thrift at the cost of style, we buy from Detroit; and for Detroit pizazz and over-the-top performance, we go to the Germans."

The review was for a maserati.

I agree that the time of the "ethnic motorcar" is waning rapidly, but for slightly different reasons. Take the Volvo S40, one of the two cars I'm looking at. It's made by Volvo, a Swedish company. But Volvo Cars is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford Corp, an American company. And the S40 was designed jointly with Mazda (resulting in the Mazda3) and Ford (resulting in a Europe-only version of the Focus). So is the Volvo S40 European, American, or Japanese? Who knows.

Likewise, when you buy a Jetta made in Mexico, are you really buying a German car? In the world of international commerce, these labels are rapidly becoming useless.
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post #58 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
I think you're getting carried away here. Remember that the EPA, not the automotive press, is the most reputable source for fuel mileage. Anyone who reads Consumer Reports knows that the Chevy Impala gets 21mpg city, 32mph highway with the 3.4 liter V6, and 20mpg city, 30mpg highway with the 3.8 liter V6.

The EPA, not Honda and Toyota Corporations, is responsible for the fuel economy numbers on Honda and Toyota's web pages. So if they're lying, they have the United States federal government in cahoots with them.


In all fairness, Car & Driver ranked the Colorado dead last when compared to the Dodge Dakota, Toyota Tacoma, Honda Ridgeline, and Nissan Frontier. So CR isn't the only outlet that criticizes that truck.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=9470

Also, you say Consumer Reports bashes every American vehicle? How about these CR rankings?

Buick Park Avenue: Recommended
Cadillac CTS: Best Buy
Cadillac DeVille: Recommended
Cadillac Escalade: Recommended
Chevy Corvette: Best Buy
Chevy Silverade: Best Buy
Chevy Tahoe/Suburban: Best Buy
Chrysler 300: Best Buy
Chrysler Crossfire: Recommended
Chrysler PT Cruiser: Best Buy
Chrysler Town & Country: Best Buy
Dodge Caravan: Best Buy
Dodge Dakota: Recommended
Dodge Durango: Recommended
Dodge Magnum: Best Buy
Dodge Ram: Recommended
Ford Escape: Best Buy
Ford Expedition: Best Buy
Ford Explorer: Recommended
Ford F-150: Best Buy
Ford Focus: Recommended
Ford Ranger: Recommended
GMC Sierra: Best Buy
GMC Yukon/Denali: Recommended
Jeep Liberty: Recommended

I'm sorry that CR bashed the Chevy Colorado, but that doesn't mean that they're in a conspiracy to demean all American cars.


Consumer Reports didn't label either the Scion xA or the xB "recommended."

CR has to be dragged kicking and screaming to recommend an American vehicle. Their data is meaningless to most car owners.
While the Colorado finished last next to those trucks it wasn't panned. CR basically said the Colorado was a POS. Funny how those who own the truck love it.
As for EPA mileage, GM cars are almost always spot-on with estimated MPG, while Honda and Toyota are way off. Conspiracy? Dont know, but something is rotten.
post #59 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No - American cars really do suck. I will never forgive Dodge for the multiple transmission failures and stuff falling off of my 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan. On top of that, it depriciated from 31K down to 4K in 4 years/96K miles - My honda odyssey is so much better I don't know how Dodge can sell any minivans.

I recently drove a new Lincoln town car - total piece of crap.

The big 3 spend all their time worrying about their built up pension liabilities and union concessions. The interiors are crap, the drive is crap (except for a very few cars), and the cars fall apart.

My mothers Chevy Celebrity is 18 yrs old!
If you take proper care of a car they tend to last a long time.
There are clunkers in every make. I know 2 people who own Nissan's and they are having problems left and right.
As for interiors I tend to agree with you. The only decent interiors I have seen personally are the Chevy Cobalt, 2006 Impala, the new GM minivans, and the Pontiac G6 isnt bad. They are supposedly much improved in the 2007 models that only the press got to see, but GM and Ford move way too slow in response to competition.
post #60 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
I agree that the time of the "ethnic motorcar" is waning rapidly, but for slightly different reasons. Take the Volvo S40, one of the two cars I'm looking at. It's made by Volvo, a Swedish company. But Volvo Cars is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford Corp, an American company. And the S40 was designed jointly with Mazda (resulting in the Mazda3) and Ford (resulting in a Europe-only version of the Focus). So is the Volvo S40 European, American, or Japanese? Who knows.

Likewise, when you buy a Jetta made in Mexico, are you really buying a German car? In the world of international commerce, these labels are rapidly becoming useless.

In many cases yes. Most Suzuki's are Korean made by Daewoo which is owned by GM.
Saab is owned by GM as is much of Isuzu.
Mazda is controlled by Ford.
But if you buy a Toyota or Honda you are buying Japanese. If they build the cars here it means squat because most of the content is foreign and the profits go back to japan.

If you want to buy Japanese and not feel guilty buy a Suzuki or a Mazda.
Toyota can go fuck themselves.
post #61 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
CR has to be dragged kicking and screaming to recommend an American vehicle. Their data is meaningless to most car owners.

Dragged kicking and screaming to recommending 25 American vehicles you mean? Including 13 Best Buys?

Quote:
While the Colorado finished last [in Car and Driver] next to those trucks it wasn't panned. CR basically said the Colorado was a POS. Funny how those who own the truck love it.

Car and Driver: "One tester commented, "It's as if Chevy were looking for ways not to compete." ... In the end, what really stung us was how little innovative thinking went into the Colorado ... GM had 20 years to get its compact pickup right. The Colorado should be better."

Consumer Reports: "Chevy's Colorado and its GMC Canyon companion focus on the light-duty noncommercial user--assuming heavy haulers will move up to the large Silverado and Sierra. Given that mission, these are useful, well-balanced small trucks." Incidentally, for "total score," on a scale of 100, the 2WD 5-cylinder model scored a 43 and the 4WD 5-cylinder model scored a 44. The average total for compact pickups is 42.5.

Who is panning the Colorado again?

Quote:
But if you buy a Toyota or Honda you are buying Japanese. If they build the cars here it means squat because most of the content is foreign and the profits go back to japan.

My dollars contribute to my community NO MORE if I buy from Ford than from Toyota. The CEOs and shareholders of those corporations benefit. Not "Japan as a whole" or "America as a whole." The CEOs of don't share with the everyday people of the countries they live in. They just live like fat-cats themselves. As for shareholders, you don't have to be American to buy stock in GM and you don't have to be Japanese to buy stock in Toyota. I believe both are publicly-traded companies, though I could be wrong.

The only public benefit these companies give is jobs, and that is determined by where their manufacturaing plants are located, not where the CEO lives. And Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai all do most of their manufacturing of US-market cars in the US, even though the CEOs live in East Asia.

When General Motors starts contributing to public education in Oregon, or pays for road repair in Oregon, then maybe I'll see a patriotic reason to buy GM. But at the moment, neither GM nor Toyota is doing jack to help the community I live in, so I see no reason to be more loyal to one than the other.
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post #62 of 93
>My dollars contribute to my community NO MORE if I buy from Ford than from Toyota. The CEOs and shareholders of those corporations benefit. Not "Japan as a whole" or "America as a whole." The CEOs of don't share with the everyday people of the countries they live in. They just live like fat-cats themselves. As for shareholders, you don't have to be American to buy stock in GM and you don't have to be Japanese to buy stock in Toyota. I believe both are publicly-traded companies, though I could be wrong.

The only public benefit these companies give is jobs, and that is determined by where their manufacturaing plants are located, not where the CEO lives. And Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai all do most of their manufacturing of US-market cars in the US, even though the CEOs live in East Asia.

When General Motors starts contributing to public education in Oregon, or pays for road repair in Oregon, then maybe I'll see a patriotic reason to buy GM. But at the moment, neither GM nor Toyota is doing jack to help the community I live in, so I see no reason to be more loyal to one than the other.<

You have no idea how wrong you are, my friend. The amount of jobs GM and Ford contribute to this country is spread upon its suppliers and those that supply them. Toyota and Honda do not have as much domestic content in their brands and they do not contribute nearly as many jobs as the Big 3.
Honda and Toyota are not domestic brands. Just because they build many cars here does not mean they are domestics.
I'm not telling you to buy an American car if you dont like them, just don;t be fooled into thinking it's patriotic to buy a foreign car that's made in the US. You are just fooling yourself if you think that way.
If GM goes down, you will see the repercussions. You think the market crash in '87 and 2000 were bad? It would be a disaster of immense proportions.
post #63 of 93
Quote:
You have no idea how wrong you are, my friend. The amount of jobs GM and Ford contribute to this country is spread upon its suppliers and those that supply them. Toyota and Honda do not have as much domestic content in their brands and they do not contribute nearly as many jobs as the Big 3.
Honda and Toyota are not domestic brands. Just because they build many cars here does not mean they are domestics.
I'm not telling you to buy an American car if you dont like them, just don;t be fooled into thinking it's patriotic to buy a foreign car that's made in the US. You are just fooling yourself if you think that way.

So, what's more patriotic: buying a Toyota made in Fremont, California; a Honda made in Marysville, Ohio; a Ford made in Hermosillo, Mexico; or a Chrysler made in Windsor, Ontario, Canada by a German-owned parent company? How about a Saturn VUE with an engine supplied by Honda? How about a Chevy Aveo made in Korea?

Did you know that a Honda Ridgeline has 75% domestic (US and Canada) content, while a Chevy Avalanche has only 61% domestic content? A Toyota Camry built in Kentucky has 80% domestic content; a Chrysler 300 has only 72%. A Toyota Sienna has 90% domestic content while a Jeep Grand Cherokee has only 75%.

In a global economy, exhorting people to "buy American" cars is overly simplistic.
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post #64 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Voxapps
So, what's more patriotic: buying a Toyota made in Fremont, California; a Honda made in Marysville, Ohio; a Ford made in Hermosillo, Mexico; or a Chrysler made in Windsor, Ontario, Canada by a German-owned parent company? How about a Saturn VUE with an engine supplied by Honda? How about a Chevy Aveo made in Korea?

Did you know that a Honda Ridgeline has 75% domestic (US and Canada) content, while a Chevy Avalanche has only 61% domestic content? A Toyota Camry built in Kentucky has 80% domestic content; a Chrysler 300 has only 72%. A Toyota Sienna has 90% domestic content while a Jeep Grand Cherokee has only 75%.

In a global economy, exhorting people to "buy American" cars is overly simplistic.

Are you sure about the domestic content percentages? I find it hard to believe that Toyota would use 90% American suppliers because Japanese companies have very tight ties to thei parts suppliers in japan.
What matters most is where the corporation is based. Sending money to Toyota does not help this country as much as keeping the money here.
The global economy will not help much if GM went down. It would be a economic disaster of immense proportions.
post #65 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Are you sure about the domestic content percentages? I find it hard to believe that Toyota would use 90% American suppliers because Japanese companies have very tight ties to thei parts suppliers in japan.

I can't speak to Toyota, but at least with Honda, the US-market Accord is a totally different car than the world market Accord. Different design, parts, et cetera. The world-market Accord is sold in the USA as the Acura TSX (one of the cars I'm looking at, if you recall). So it would make sense to me that the US Accord would be made with mostly American-supplied parts. Those parts aren't used for European or Japanese Hondas.

Quote:
What matters most is where the corporation is based. Sending money to Toyota does not help this country as much as keeping the money here.

Of the three categories, "where cars are built," "where their parts suppliers are located," and "where corporate headquarters is located," the last category matters the least, not the most. The first two provide significant jobs to the community. The last does not.

Quote:
The global economy will not help much if GM went down. It would be a economic disaster of immense proportions.

GM is a multi-billion-dollar corporation. If they can't keep themselves afloat with their own designs, I'm sure as heck not going to subsidize them out of pity. And they happen to not make any cars that strike my fancy anyway. Chrysler is profitable right now. It's possible for a US company to be profitable. If GM can't keep up, it reaps the consequences. That's capitalism for you.
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post #66 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
I can't speak to Toyota, but at least with Honda, the US-market Accord is a totally different car than the world market Accord. Different design, parts, et cetera. The world-market Accord is sold in the USA as the Acura TSX (one of the cars I'm looking at, if you recall). So it would make sense to me that the US Accord would be made with mostly American-supplied parts. Those parts aren't used for European or Japanese Hondas.


Of the three categories, "where cars are built," "where their parts suppliers are located," and "where corporate headquarters is located," the last category matters the least, not the most. The first two provide significant jobs to the community. The last does not.


GM is a multi-billion-dollar corporation. If they can't keep themselves afloat with their own designs, I'm sure as heck not going to subsidize them out of pity. And they happen to not make any cars that strike my fancy anyway. Chrysler is profitable right now. It's possible for a US company to be profitable. If GM can't keep up, it reaps the consequences. That's capitalism for you.

You shouldnt buy something you dont want.
However, many Americans dismiss American cars out of hand and won't even consider buying them no matter what. Thats what concerns me.
I do agree that they screwed up big time over the years. Incompetence is inexcusable. I do, however, give them a chance to impress me.
So far the only domestic cars I really like are the Chevy HHR, the Chevy Cobalt, the Chevy Impala, The Buick LaCrosse, the Pontiac G6, the Pontiac Torrent (which has a Chinese built engine ), the Ford Mustang, the Mercury Milan, and pretty much all the Cadillacs-CTS, STS, SRX. Thats a pretty nice list. They all get pretty good reviews but many people won;t even test drive them. I think thats just sad.
If I were GM I would put a 10 year Warranty on all their vehicles, just like Hyundai did. That would help until perception catches up with reality.
post #67 of 93
Right now my main quandry in car buying is if I should go for a nicely equipped Civic or a lesser-equipped Accord.

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post #68 of 93
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Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Right now my main quandry in car buying is if I should go for a nicely equipped Civic or a lesser-equipped Accord.


The 2006 Accord EX four-cylinder is a far nicer car than a 2006 Civic, even a loaded Civic. I've test-driven both. There's a slight handling advantage to the Civic, but the Accord is good in that department for a family sedan, and it is vastly superior to the Civic in terms of interior quality, polished mechanical feel, acceleration, et cetera.

I think the Civic's only selling points are its handling and its fuel economy. The four-cylinder Accord, on the other hand, is a really solid, practical, well-rounded car for the typical driver.
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post #69 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
You shouldnt buy something you dont want.
However, many Americans dismiss American cars out of hand and won't even consider buying them no matter what. Thats what concerns me.
I do agree that they screwed up big time over the years. Incompetence is inexcusable. I do, however, give them a chance to impress me.
So far the only domestic cars I really like are the Chevy HHR, the Chevy Cobalt, the Chevy Impala, The Buick LaCrosse, the Pontiac G6, the Pontiac Torrent (which has a Chinese built engine ), the Ford Mustang, the Mercury Milan, and pretty much all the Cadillacs-CTS, STS, SRX. Thats a pretty nice list. They all get pretty good reviews but many people won;t even test drive them. I think thats just sad.
If I were GM I would put a 10 year Warranty on all their vehicles, just like Hyundai did. That would help until perception catches up with reality.

I will buy a car from any company if it's what I want. I considered the Cadillac CTS, but it's a bit too expensive, too big for me, and the interior isn't up to snuff against the competition. Other than that it's a really solid sport sedan. For anyone looking at midsize sport-sedans, it's a great choice, and would probably blow a Saab 9-5, Volvo S60, and possibly Acura TL out of the water in the "sport" department. I think the new Pontiac Solstice is pretty cool. Definitely a good competitor to the Miata. The LaCrosse CXS could be cool if they put a manual in it. EDIT: The new Lincoln Zephyr has one of the coolest interiors I've seen on a car. Very Rocketeer or Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow.

But what's this stuff about "people won't test-drive the Mustang"? On the first year of the new model, Ford sold more Mustangs than Subaru sold all its cars combined.

I don't hate American cars, and if an American manufacturer built a compact semi-luxury sport sedan akin to a Volvo S40 or Acura TSX, I'd test-drive it. But at the current time, no American manufacturer does. They let their Swedish subsidiaries (Ford's got Volvo and GM's got Saab) handle that market.
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post #70 of 93
Actually the wife has corrected me. It's an Accord or Camry.

And she makes more money than me, so what she says goes.
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post #71 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Actually the wife has corrected me. It's an Accord or Camry.

And she makes more money than me, so what she says goes.

The Accord handles better and has a nice manual transmission with either the i4 or the V6, but it's prone to picking up rattles as it ages. The Camry has better sound insulation and insulates you from road imperfections more, but has more body lean in turns, and you can't get a manual with the V6. Other than that, they're pretty much the same car.
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post #72 of 93
We have a 1993 Camry right now that is a 4cyl (135hp) and is pretty weak. The body doesn't rattle much at all, which is surprising. That's important because those little noises drive us both insane.
We live in midtown Houston, where the roads are absolute garbage. So this will actually be something of a concern.

And neither of us are huge performance nuts (we do like some kick, but we're not fussed too much) so I'm thinking either 6cyl will do us fine, or maybe even the 4cyl if they've pepped them up some.
My 1992 SC-300 puts out 225hp and I quite like it, so if the 6cyl models really feel sexy we're debating whether or not the 4-6mpg saving is worth it (and, of course, the extra money that could otherwise sit in a 401k or IRA and help us retire early!).

I'd love to get my liberal cred and go hybrid but automakers have just been idiots with it. The Accord hybrid is nice, but why do they make the thing such a niche product? A 255hp hybrid for $30k and a whopping 4-6 MPG savings?

Toyota looks to be going to more sane with their Camry hybrid, but everything I read on that says late 2006, I don't know if we can wait that long.
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post #73 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
The 2006 Accord EX four-cylinder is a far nicer car than a 2006 Civic, even a loaded Civic. I've test-driven both. There's a slight handling advantage to the Civic, but the Accord is good in that department for a family sedan, and it is vastly superior to the Civic in terms of interior quality, polished mechanical feel, acceleration, et cetera.

I think the Civic's only selling points are its handling and its fuel economy. The four-cylinder Accord, on the other hand, is a really solid, practical, well-rounded car for the typical driver.

I understand the US and European/Japanese Accords are different cars, but at least here the Accord is awesome and it's not even available as V6. I4 2.0l with ~160hp and I4 2.4l with ~200hp are available. This review from a while ago (2003) tells it all. Note that the writer Julian Edgar runs the Aussie site Autospeed.com, which specializes on sports cars. This guy is no stranger to exotic Japan imports such as GT-R:s, nor fast V8 Holdens, and he calls the Accord a clear class leader and benchmark for future cars.

When my parents bought a new car, the ones going toe to toe last were A4 Quattro 2.0 T FSI and the Accord 2.4. At the end the Audi won because we secured a special offer that brought the Audi's price down very, very close to the Honda, and the best-on-market AWD and small improvements here and there were well worth the remaining difference. Had the A4 been normal price, the Honda would probably have won. It's the same class of car in any case.

Compared to the Accord, Civic feels clunky. Except the Type R, of course.
post #74 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Actually the wife has corrected me. It's an Accord or Camry.

And she makes more money than me, so what she says goes.

[Nelson]Ha Ha![/Nelson]

In our household, it's Car A, the vehicle the wife wants, and Car B, the vehicle the husband wants. So, Car A is like a Honda Civic LX with 34 mpg mixed and Car B is like a Mazda RX-8 with 20 mpg mixed.

Suffice it to say, what she says goes...
post #75 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
We have a 1993 Camry right now that is a 4cyl (135hp) and is pretty weak. The body doesn't rattle much at all, which is surprising. That's important because those little noises drive us both insane.
...
And neither of us are huge performance nuts (we do like some kick, but we're not fussed too much) so I'm thinking either 6cyl will do us fine, or maybe even the 4cyl if they've pepped them up some.

Get a Camry, either four-cylinder or six. All Hondas rattle with time. Toyota is legendary for its quiet interiors. As for your performance needs, if you're getting a manual transmission, the Camry's 157hp might be sufficient. But if you're getting an automatic, get the V6.

Quote:
I'd love to get my liberal cred and go hybrid but automakers have just been idiots with it.

As for your liberal credibility, don't get sucked into the hybrid things. While the economy-car hybrids (Civic Hybrid and Prius) get fantastic fuel savings, a lot of the latest-generation cars barely do better than normally-fueled cars. For example, a manual-transmission inline-four Accord (with 168hp) gets 26 mpg city, 34 highway. That's just three mpg off from the Accord Hybrid (which is admittedly 250hp). Wait until more manufacturers offer diesel cars, and go biodiesel. Hybrids are still dependent on petroleum, so they're like putting a band-aid on a shark bite. They don't fix the bigger problem.
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post #76 of 93
You know, I've always noticed road noise in Hondas but I've kind of shunted it aside in my mind because of the (correct) impression that they go 8 jillion miles before dying.

Also, I've recently done a 180 on my usual thinking and am seriously considering buying new. Feel free to scream at me or praise me on this as I am definitely open to all ideas.
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post #77 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Actually the wife has corrected me. It's an Accord or Camry.

And she makes more money than me, so what she says goes.

Plus don't forget. She is more intelligent and most important of all, sane.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #78 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
You know, I've always noticed road noise in Hondas but I've kind of shunted it aside in my mind because of the (correct) impression that they go 8 jillion miles before dying.

Also, I've recently done a 180 on my usual thinking and am seriously considering buying new. Feel free to scream at me or praise me on this as I am definitely open to all ideas.

I don't have to scream. I'll just quote you.

Quote:
(and, of course, the extra money that could otherwise sit in a 401k or IRA and help us retire early!).


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #79 of 93
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
You know, I've always noticed road noise in Hondas but I've kind of shunted it aside in my mind because of the (correct) impression that they go 8 jillion miles before dying.

When I lived in fairly wealthy areas of the Northeast and mid-atlantic, the used car market was a total steal, since the demand was low. Now I live in a much more median area, and the used car market is pretty hot. I couldn't see the value in buying used when the three-year resale on the [new] cars I was looking at was so good.
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post #80 of 93
spline:

Houston is a pretty well-to-do town as far as Texas goes.

I'll probably do some pavement-pounding this week to check things out.


trumpt:

Quote:
Plus don't forget. She is more intelligent and most important of all, sane.

She's far more intelligent, but I think she actually might be a little less sane than I am, so... frightening.

The thing with used v. new is the mileage. People drive the hell out of their cars here in this massive state we call Texas.

Let's compare two cars.

2006 Camry LE
$21k & "0" miles (from toyota.com)

2004 Camry LE
$17k & 30k miles (from kbb.com)

It's likely we'll keep this thing for 150k miles either way. So, with a great deal of the used cars out there you're already 1/5th of the way there the second you drive it off the lot.
Plus you've lost a lot of the warranty already (if not all of it).

120,000 miles/$17,000 = 7.05 miles/dollar
150,000 miles/$21,000 = 7.14 miles/dollar

I use 150k as the baseline because that's where the current Camry is and it's not feeling its best in many different areas. But it's clear that used takes the cake once you get to 200,000 miles.

170,000 miles/$17,000 = 10 miles/dollar
200,000 miles/$21,000 = 9.52 miles/dollar

I figure that if you're able to find/negotiate a good deal on a used car you're able to find/negotiate a good deal on a new car. I don't know if there is a true difference between used/new car salesmen/managers.

After doing assloads of research into these cars the chasm between buying used and buying new is just a whole lot smaller than I thought it was.

Leasing, though... that's still ridiculous.
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