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Kitzmiller v. Dover Board of Ed. -- aka the "Panda Trial" - Page 15

post #561 of 576
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
shetline, as the father of several children, the oldest being 11, I think it's fair to say I'm fairly adept at dealing with individuals who are deliberately attempting to antagonize me.

You're also fairly adept at doing the antagonizing. For one thing, by being so evasive... In fact, I see you took the opportunity of critizing the tone of a short post over dealing with the challenges of the longer posts.
Quote:
Wouldn't it be possible to dispense with the antagonism?

Dispense with your evasiveness and start really answering some tough questions, and I'll consider it.
Quote:
This is the internet, we aren't obligated to read everything that is offered.

Which is damn convenient at times, isn't it?
Quote:
I know you have a point, so why not just make the point? And briefly.

I am making my points, as briefly as your predictable slipperiness and ability to (willfully it often seems) misread anything shorter allows.
Quote:
There are truly brilliant posters here who can justify longish posts, (Justin comes to mind) but you and I aren't in that crowd.

Considering the positive reviews of my posts which I often receive, you'll have to forgive me if I think I'm doing just fine in long form.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #562 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
And as I've said before, I don't think you're going to like where this consistency leads once you begin to think about the nature of your "revealed truth" and the ways that we apprehend (meaning both to understand and to stop) the world around us through language.

And once you accept that premisethat we exist in and through languageand you're consistent, you're off in Derrida and Paul de Man land...and I don't think you'll like it very much. I suggest you get your hands on Stanley Fish's essay "Postmodern Warfare" from Harper's a while back. If you can't find it, PM me and I'll send it to you.

Yes, I understand where you're coming from, and If we didn't have souls, I think you'd be dead on the money. But consiousness is derivative of more than the purely material.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #563 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
You're also fairly adept at doing the antagonizing.

What? little 'ol me? Nevah!
It must be your guilty cons...., er, imagination.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #564 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Yes, I understand where you're coming from, and If we didn't have souls, I think you'd be dead on the money. But consiousness is derivative of more than the purely material.

No, it isn;t.

Self-awareness is something we can program into inorganic materials.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #565 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No, it isn;t.

Self-awareness is something we can program into inorganic materials.

Really? I know that a few other species (e.g., chimps, but probably not monkeys) are believed to have human-like self-awareness. But I've never heard of anything inorganic being self-aware.
post #566 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Really? I know that a few other species (e.g., chimps, but probably not monkeys) are believed to have human-like self-awareness. But I've never heard of anything inorganic being self-aware.

It depends upon how you define self-awareness, which is sort of the point.

I don't believe humans are able to define their self-awareness and a great deal of our concepts of our consciousness are implicitly biased towards the founding assumption that it is unique to humans... and ultimately I believe it isn't a large leap from knowing that you are injured (or whatnot) to knowing that you exist.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #567 of 576
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Self-awareness is something we can program into inorganic materials.

I think this depends on what you mean by "self aware". (I see while I've been typing this you've already gotten to that obvious point.) For some very limited definition, perhaps. As time goes on, perhaps we will develop artificial intelligence so advanced that it can pass any test we can imagine giving a human being to test their self awareness -- we're quite far from getting there at this point.

Suppose we do get there, however. Some people would still insist on saying that our AI mimicked self awareness, rather than actually being self aware. Why? Because there's something about one's own experience of one's own self awareness which alludes easy explanation, which feels like more than producing outputs which correspond to given inputs.

Of course, that feeling is totally internal. Not only are we unable to tell if a machine might have that kind of feeling, we can't even know for sure if other people have that feeling. Getting back to the thread topic, this points out the kind of question science can't answer -- anything regarding the full character of what another being's perceptions and awareness are like, the quality and flavor of those perceptions beyond the mere technical specifications of measured responses to given stimuli -- is not in the realm of the observable, therefore not subject to scientific discussion.

Now some people around here should note that it's perfectly possible to reach this conclusion (a) without filling in with metaphysics or religion, and (b) without denying metaphysical or religious "explanations" either. This is where one who uses science simply says "I don't know".
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #568 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
shetline, as the father of several children, the oldest being 11, I think it's fair to say I'm fairly adept at dealing with individuals who are deliberately attempting to antagonize me.

Wouldn't it be possible to dispense with the antagonism? I do understand anger and heated discussions, which can be justified at times, but antagonism causes me to skip posts. This is the internet, we aren't obligated to read everything that is offered.

I know you have a point, so why not just make the point? And briefly. There are truly brilliant posters here who can justify longish posts, (Justin comes to mind) but you and I aren't in that crowd.

Just a thought.

Did dmz just tell someone to make a point and be brief about it?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #569 of 576
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Did dmz just tell someone to make a point and be brief about it?

Ironic, ain't it?

Of course, any point I have to make has to be considered far too pedestrian, next to the amazing blend of erudition and Revealed Truth dmz brings to the table, to be worth very many words. I should simply provide a simple phrase or two at a time, easily packaged for dmz's quick refutation, and accept that if it appears to me that dmz is totally misreading those few words, that it's really because he's seeing deeper into my own words than I myself do.

Do I think he's using straw men, false dichotomies, over simplifications of opposing viewpoints, contrived dilemmas? No, no, no... I have to realize that these apparent problems exist only because dmz has already leaped far ahead on these issues via not only logic and philosophical depth beyond my ken, but by the Guiding Hand of Grace. Apparent evasiveness? That's simply his Zen-master like approach of teasing us along to follow in his own path. He can't just tell us what he means and how he got there -- he can only reveal his Wisdom to us in tantalizing glimpses, in the hope we can discover our own path to his (and His) TRVTH.

We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #570 of 576
but this isn't a thread about dmz, so we'll leave the dissection of him for other places.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #571 of 576
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
but this isn't a thread about dmz, so we'll leave the dissection of him for other places.

Ooh! A new thread topic!

But seriously: thank you.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #572 of 576
The judge in Kitzmiller v. Dover is coming to my law school next Tuesday to speak about the case and how it relates to the importance of judicial independence.

How cool is that!?

*It's a big thread-bump but I didn't think such a limited-interest news development warranted its own thread.
post #573 of 576
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

How cool is that!?

Other than a General Discussion thread I just noticed, talking about the existence of God but starting to veer off into evolution, it's remarkable how quiet the anti-evolution, pro-ID crowd has been since that decision.

I'm sure it's only a temporary respite, but damn, it's been nice.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #574 of 576
dmz-- you belong in here.

now stop spamming every thread with evolution-talk.
post #575 of 576
no. dmz, ena, and all his other personalities belong in a basic biology class.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #576 of 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

no. dmz, ena, and all his other personalities belong in a basic biology class.

Biology!? That's too liberal for me.
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