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Apple compiles first Mac OS X 10.4.4 builds - Page 2

post #41 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by BWhaler
Except for the fact that Tiger still is not done.

Heh! We've gone over this one before! Most of the 10.4 team has been reassigned to the 10.5 project. This starts to happen as a project winds down.

I assure you that 10.6 is already in the first phase.
post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by ipodandimac
well you know, tiger really is a great OS point release, and were around when it came out? people left and right were bashing apple for releasing products too quickly. they didnt want to have to pay $130 every year. and now all of a sudden there's a demand for 10.5?? i just dont understand.


Bleh. I still am not sold on "Tiger". All I know is that they 1) have broken the connection to any OS9 file servers and 2) broke compatibility with our v1.2 of Apple Remote Desktop. If we were to update ARD to 2.2, we wouldn't be able to connect to OS9 machines. I had Tiger installed and had to remove it. The political decisions really infuriate me.

We're a school district so we still have a ton of iMacs in our elementaries that are running OS9 quite happily.

I think I'll skip giving Apple more padding for their coffers and instead wait for 10.5 and the Pentium models.
post #43 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Then Steinberg was bullshitting you. CubaseSX, as far as I know, still uses QuickDraw. Apple hasn't been optimizing QuickDraw for many years; it's a dying technology, no news there. Steinberg needs to switch to Quartz 2D, which as of Panther was indeed slower than QuickDraw. With Tiger, that has changed -- Quartz 2D is now faster.

Would Quartz 2D Extreme make it even faster? Yes. But that requires absolutely no intervention from developers. All developers need to do, and were supposed to do for many years now, is transition to Quartz 2D instead of QuickDraw.

Yeah, the wait for Q2DX sounds like an excuse.

BTW, are we sure that Quartz 2D is now faster than quickdraw for everything? They demoed one line drawing test, yes, but when comparing Q2D to Q2DX, they showed several tests (rectangle drawing, text...).
Not that I skeptical, but it looks like Quickdraw is faster than quartz only for line drawing. \ I admit I know nothing about the core of these technologies.
Please reassure me.
post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Neither was/is Panther. Software projects are hardly ever done.

True, there only done when they are obsolite. ie. AmigaOS.
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post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by BEatMaKeR
Maybe Apple can make an update to OS X that brings my Dual 2.5ghz Power Mac G5 up to the performance speed (for getting around my Mac HD) that I once had in a beige G3!!!!

...With every update since 10.3.9 comes SLOWER performance and SLOOOOOOWER performance issues!!!!

C'MON!!!

Don't know what your system's problem is but Ihave the opposite reaction.
FYI:here's one example-
Under OSX 10.3.9 I had 1.5GB ram, 10.3.9 managed it horribly.
It was alsways at 850MB's-1GB
Under 10.4.3 I bought an extra 1.5GB's ra but in Tiger my ram usage is never above 700MB while running the same programs.

Another example-
Startup under 10.3.9 would take in upwards of 45+ seconds even with a Raptor boot drive
Under 10.4.3 booting takes less than 25 seconds.
post #46 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by AquaMac
True, there only done when they are obsolite. ie. AmigaOS.

http://www.amiga.org/
post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Then Steinberg was bullshitting you. CubaseSX, as far as I know, still uses QuickDraw. Apple hasn't been optimizing QuickDraw for many years; it's a dying technology, no news there. Steinberg needs to switch to Quartz 2D, which as of Panther was indeed slower than QuickDraw. With Tiger, that has changed -- Quartz 2D is now faster.

Would Quartz 2D Extreme make it even faster? Yes. But that requires absolutely no intervention from developers. All developers need to do, and were supposed to do for many years now, is transition to Quartz 2D instead of QuickDraw.

Chucker -> Steinberg have re-written the drawing guts, it is now Quartz 2D, since Cubase SX3.1. There has been a small improvement running 3.1 in Tiger, however we ARE waiting for Quartz 2D Extreme to be enabled by Apple and this will provide us a significant improvement. I thought this was already explained??

The main point was Quartz 2D Extreme was a "PROMISED" feature of Tiger, it has now been completely discarded after we have payed for Tiger purely to get faster graphics in Cubase. The major annoyance here is, we are ALWAYS waiting. Waiting for Apple to fix this, waiting for steinberg to fix that, waiting for this an that to be implemented and working, waiting, waiting, fsckin waiting, like 5 years and the mofo's still can't get this shit sorted. Now what we have to wait another 2 years while these muppets transition from PPC to x86? We waited patiently on Mac OS 8/9x for years waiting for a freeze free, stable midi timing and a bugless Cubase. OS X was to be the savior. More like a bunch of dreams and broken promises.

I just wish someone would write fresh dedicated multi tasking multithreaded SMP Midi/Audio Operating System without all the networking, printing, and fancy CPU draining UI's, built to run on a dedicated platform with midi UART chips on board like the old Atari and point to point I/O busses with loads of RAM.
post #48 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Targon
[B]Chucker -> Steinberg have re-written the drawing guts, it is now Quartz 2D, since Cubase SX3.1. There has been a small improvement running 3.1 in Tiger, however we ARE waiting for Quartz 2D Extreme to be enabled by Apple and this will provide us a significant improvement. I thought this was already explained??

So why did steinberg say they would release an update for Q2DX, since it doesn't require any modification in apps that already use Quartz 2D?
Quote:
The main point was Quartz 2D Extreme was a "PROMISED" feature of Tiger, it has now been completely discarded after we have payed for Tiger purely to get faster graphics in Cubase. The major annoyance here is, we are ALWAYS waiting. Waiting for Apple to fix this, waiting for steinberg to fix that, waiting for this an that to be implemented and working, waiting, waiting, fsckin waiting, like 5 years and the mofo's still can't get this shit sorted. Now what we have to wait another 2 years while these muppets transition from PPC to x86? We waited patiently on Mac OS 8/9x for years waiting for a freeze free, stable midi timing and a bugless Cubase. OS X was to be the savior. More like a bunch of dreams and broken promises.

I'm note sure one can say that Q2DX was "promised" since it never appeared in the "official" tiger new features. By "official", I mean the features revealed to the average customer, not to the developpers in a WWDC session.
Anyway, Q2DX has never showed any significant improvment in responsiveness (from users who enabled it). You would probably be disappointed even if apple enables it. Buying tiger just for this wasn't a good idea, but you couldn't know.

Steinberg should not have talked about Q2DX because, as OS X developpers, they knew that Apple never wrote a single line on Q2DX in their documentation (AFAIK) [EDIT : I'm wrong, there is one reference]
post #49 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Heh! We've gone over this one before! Most of the 10.4 team has been reassigned to the 10.5 project. This starts to happen as a project winds down.

I assure you that 10.6 is already in the first phase.

This is to be expected.
post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Targon
The main point was Quartz 2D Extreme was a "PROMISED" feature of Tiger, it has now been completely discarded after we have payed for Tiger purely to get faster graphics in Cubase. The major annoyance here is, we are ALWAYS waiting.

Bullshit. Steinberg can't tell their customers "oh well, Apple will fix this problem for you, just wait", then blame Apple later on if they don't do it.
post #51 of 61
I wonder If Apple will ever fix the cosmetic "bug" that is getting the text selection cursor when over a button. This happen relatively often but even more so when using Dashboard widgets.
post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by JamesG
Bleh. I still am not sold on "Tiger". All I know is that they 1) have broken the connection to any OS9 file servers and 2) broke compatibility with our v1.2 of Apple Remote Desktop. If we were to update ARD to 2.2, we wouldn't be able to connect to OS9 machines. I had Tiger installed and had to remove it. The political decisions really infuriate me.

We're a school district so we still have a ton of iMacs in our elementaries that are running OS9 quite happily.

I think I'll skip giving Apple more padding for their coffers and instead wait for 10.5 and the Pentium models.

Glad my kids don't go to your schools. They seemed to switch over just fine. OS 9? Egads!
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post #53 of 61
Apple could just never tell you AT ALL EVER about what they were planning on having implemented in the next release. You're waiting for Q2DX, I'm waiting for my terabtye DDR9 RAM and 10GHz P11 with 3 petabtyes of HD.

Thank goodness for 20th Century culture. Produced lots of wonderful people.

[end rant]
post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by macserverX
Apple could just never tell you AT ALL EVER about what they were planning on having implemented in the next release. You're waiting for Q2DX, I'm waiting for my terabtye DDR9 RAM and 10GHz P11 with 3 petabtyes of HD.

Thank goodness for 20th Century culture. Produced lots of wonderful people.

[end rant]

When is that supposed to be coming out?
post #55 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by grad student
uh, i've lost files on my macs over the years.... especially pre-osx days...

and i personally hope vista is stellar - the faster software progresses, the better it is for all of us - even if the features show up on our second favorite platform first...

How did you manage that, besides the computer crashing an no back ups?

I fire files between Mac and Windows without any problems.
post #56 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by grad student
uh, i've lost files on my macs over the years.... especially pre-osx days...

and i personally hope vista is stellar - the faster software progresses, the better it is for all of us - even if the features show up on our second favorite platform first...

How did you manage that, besides the computer crashing an no back ups?

I fire files between Mac and Windows without any problems.
post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Then Steinberg was bullshitting you. CubaseSX, as far as I know, still uses QuickDraw. Apple hasn't been optimizing QuickDraw for many years; it's a dying technology, no news there. Steinberg needs to switch to Quartz 2D, which as of Panther was indeed slower than QuickDraw. With Tiger, that has changed -- Quartz 2D is now faster.

Would Quartz 2D Extreme make it even faster? Yes. But that requires absolutely no intervention from developers. All developers need to do, and were supposed to do for many years now, is transition to Quartz 2D instead of QuickDraw.

IIRC at WWDC, they made a conserted effort repeat again and again and again that QuickDraw is dead; its at the end of its shelf life, and that all developers should start moving to Quartz 2D, not only for performance reasons but to also have the ability of their applications to be scalable on extremely high resolution displays once they become mainstream.
post #58 of 61
They also made clear that not only was QuickDraw deprecated but that Quartz 2D now had the superior performance, even in software mode (non-Q2DX). I noticed a huge jump in GUI responsiveness going from Panther to Tiger, and that's without Q2DX. Once they get Q2DX working well, even if it's not until Leopard, we should see even better performance, though probably not very noticeable in everyday usage. But anyone using Quartz primitives intensively sure would (think CAD but with bezier curves and vectored lines). It should be pretty nice, for those of us with the hardware to handle it (one of the main reasons Q2DX doesn't work that well now, most people don't have enough VRAM).
post #59 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Thinine
It should be pretty nice, for those of us with the hardware to handle it (one of the main reasons Q2DX doesn't work that well now, most people don't have enough VRAM).

VRAM? I think much more importantly, most people just don't have GPUs that have the necessary feature set.
post #60 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
VRAM? I think much more importantly, most people just don't have GPUs that have the necessary feature set.

True, but the way Q2DE works is that is caches very very aggressively. And it still has to share the VRAM with regular Quartz Extreme. So for the first time, the performance of Mac OS X is going to be sensitive to the amount of VRAM on the card. If there isn't enough, it will start thrashing because Quartz has its own VM system for the GPU.

Developers also have to read the documentation carefully in order to write their Quartz code in such a way that Quartz recognizes that it can cache the objects that are drawn. I expect that the first few rewrites of QuickDraw to Q2D will foul up on this point and run more slowly than they need to.
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post #61 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by lundy
True, but the way Q2DE works is that is caches very very aggressively. And it still has to share the VRAM with regular Quartz Extreme. So for the first time, the performance of Mac OS X is going to be sensitive to the amount of VRAM on the card. If there isn't enough, it will start thrashing because Quartz has its own VM system for the GPU.

Developers also have to read the documentation carefully in order to write their Quartz code in such a way that Quartz recognizes that it can cache the objects that are drawn. I expect that the first few rewrites of QuickDraw to Q2D will foul up on this point and run more slowly than they need to.

With that being said, however, I am sure there is a way where by Apple can reduce duplication of data stored in memory; not necessarily 'compression' but 'RAM usage rationalisation' - why store something twice if it can be stored once and accessed by two Quartz 2D and 3D extreme.
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